RIP Ninja - 5.05

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Originally Posted by Orbus

Wow
10wow's

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Even less, when you consider all the gcd clippings we have to do ;)

Nin definitely needs a rework.
SE has been making NIN cool in terms of animation but not the mechanic.
We get NIN is a "tool man" job, but seriously, the mechanics need to be much better~

honestly its just Mudras that need a rework
be nice if TCJ would either go or just not be the polar opposite for what this class needs

Dunno. Had a discussion with someone yesterday who was the impression that Ninja is completly fine as it is because in the end you can clear content with it and that its all that matters.
Anybody else see it that way?

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Originally Posted by RikuGx

Dunno. Had a discussion with someone yesterday who was the impression that Ninja is completly fine as it is because in the end you can clear content with it and that its all that matters.
Anybody else see it that way?

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The only content NIN isn't made for right now is speedkill groups. Other than that you can clear everything. That being said, the doubling down on mudras brought to light how bad the system still is. It is so unreliable, stressful and messing something up not because of some mistake on my side but because of latency makes for a poor experience. NIN has good ideas but its core feature needs to be looked at. Like... is it just impossible to smoothen that out for good?

And that would be also my point. It could be so much more and as somebody said somewhere else. "Ive never seen any MMO where the Assassin class is but a "Support" role with flavour damage"
Yes sure "Ninjas are no Assassins" but their shown to be and have the beautiful "Assassinate ready" so yes, they ARE assassins.
So either make them what their supposed to be, or rename that skill and status to "Fluff ready" so you can jump and cuddle your enemy couse thats not much more you do

speaking of assassinate that was like the one move i expected a potency buff to
but nothing

There's a ton of stuff they could do. new mudras should have replace their old ones like how everyone else skills upgrade to new ones. We are the only class w/o a damage passive/active buff. RIP POISONS we can use way higher potency buffs if they aren't gonna give us back a damage passive/active. Also tenchijin's no movement kind of sux because if you move you loose the whole cd.

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Originally Posted by Tenryou

Also tenchijin's no movement kind of sux because if you move you loose the whole cd.

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I honestly might just accept Ninja's dps concerns at this point if they removed the movement limitation on this. It's already clunky to use, let alone having to stand still for it's entire duration. It's a massive amount of damage to lose if you have to move. It's counterintuitive to the design of Ninja and using it feels like a chore.

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Originally Posted by RikuGx

Dunno. Had a discussion with someone yesterday who was the impression that Ninja is completly fine as it is because in the end you can clear content with it and that its all that matters.
Anybody else see it that way?

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For me it's not about clearing content, the job still manages that. It's that it feels weaker. I played through the MSQ without really diving into any job discussions on the forum and it just felt off compared to the same job I played through the previous expansions with. Then I saw the threads popping up and realized it wasn't just me. It is what it is, in the end can the job do content? Yes. But are solo play and personal DPS being punished for raid utility? Also yes. It brings less utility than it did prior to Shadowbringers, yet it's damage output is reduced as well. And it's noticeable.

i dont know what they were thinking with TCJ
"lets take one of the most mobile classes with ping issues and give it a move that locks them in place and amplifies the ping issues by 100"

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Originally Posted by RikuGx

Dunno. Had a discussion with someone yesterday who was the impression that Ninja is completly fine as it is because in the end you can clear content with it and that its all that matters.
Anybody else see it that way?

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i actually hate hearing people say this to me. I feels like someone is saying "just be carried" your contribution doesn't matter. It matters to me i put in alot of time and effort into my class and it's invalidating to me.

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Originally Posted by RikuGx

Dunno. Had a discussion with someone yesterday who was the impression that Ninja is completly fine as it is because in the end you can clear content with it and that its all that matters.
Anybody else see it that way?

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This is such a strawman argument. The same could be, and was said about monk when it was bad. Heck, insert any job and that statement can be said. Doesnt mean a job doesn't need work.

The large issue here is by trying to avoid a meta, SE unintentionally makes the meta system a whole lot worse. People hee'd and haw'd about ninja being so strong that it got nerfed to the ground. In a few months there will he heeing and hawing about monk being stupidly broken when it can out dps the some of the strongest raid buffs in the game.

The other issue is the fact that people quite literally ECHO meta to the point of exclusion. Is that an issue with player base? Yes, but it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be acknowledged, because people will still go for the faster and safer clear over the longer one.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

i dont know what they were thinking with TCJ
"lets take one of the most mobile classes with ping issues and give it a move that locks them in place and amplifies the ping issues by 100"

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This I strongly agree. Hate it when I have to move in the middle of Ten Chi Jin as the boss casts an AOE and had to wait for CD and wasting the rest of my jutsus with it.

I enjoy the idea of TCJ in theory, but it feels like specifically with Shadowbringers there are far more enemies and groups that put down fast AOEs or AOEs that cover a large area. Being unable to move during TCJ is a real detriment. It doesn't matter as much at the beginning of boss battles when the bosses are still warming up, but by the time the cooldown is used you need to pick and choose the times when you want to use the ability wisely. Simply being able to move at the same time when TCJ is active would solve many problems. BLM has leylines and they can run back to its location once necessary, but NIN's is an automatic fail if you are forced to move from position. It's not intuitive.

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Originally Posted by TheGrimace

I enjoy the idea of TCJ in theory, but it feels like specifically with Shadowbringers there are far more enemies and groups that put down fast AOEs or AOEs that cover a large area. Being unable to move during TCJ is a real detriment. It doesn't matter as much at the beginning of boss battles when the bosses are still warming up, but by the time the cooldown is used you need to pick and choose the times when you want to use the ability wisely. Simply being able to move at the same time when TCJ is active would solve many problems. BLM has leylines and they can run back to its location once necessary, but NIN's is an automatic fail if you are forced to move from position. It's not intuitive.

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What really angers me about this is that I look at current AST's Sleeve Draw, and it's what TCJ should have been (AST's other problems not-withstanding). Move freely, get a free Ninjutsu, then get another, like, why do lock me in place? We hated that about Goon Jumps, we hated that about Flamethrower, why did you keep that? If it locked us in and let us passively generate Ninki, fine, but it's an active part of NIN's DPS!

Haha, yeah, and then they let us keep Assassinate, but it's a fairly low potency and locks us in place longer than most Dragoon jumps now too... What a mess.

GET RID OF TEN-Chi-JIN Worse 70 move Ever even when it doesn't cost anything its still bad and feels bad to use. if balancing around Trick attack is so hard then get rid of it. and Make Ninja The Highest Dps Class to play.

Requirements to be highest Dps . High Skill Ceiling and Good Ping and High Penalty. Ninja Has done already for 3 Whole Expansion and Whole Reddit/Forums/ Everywhere you look everyone thinks This Class should be Doing alot more for what it does to hands
Shit Hurts to play for Long hours doing its rotation. at 70 kinda meh. 80 Rotation feels like Guitar Hero Hardest Song Perfecting everything. NO One Cares about Trick if you need get rid of it go for it But you better Damn well make our class NUMBER FUCKN one if you do. (sorry bit angry playing ninja does that to you with long hours with no reward.)

If they are going to make it so weak because of meta, might as well take out trick attack and raise the damage to meet SAM, DRG and MNK levels.... right now in order to make it hit hard you need to be a beast game play and ping wise, and this is a class that needs to run so many skills to be competitive.... Just make it hit hard damn it, or at least make it the Critical Hit based class; don't throw us a bone with that crappy damage buff for Gust Slash....

wellp This is it Everyone 5.08 is our buff and 5.1 Their gutted our class because they refuse to TOUCH Trick Attack Everyone Says Either get rid of it or nerf it and Raise our Damn Personal Dps Since its the Highest Requirement Skill base Class with Good Ping Requirement and they Still Refuse to do said that. Wellp R.I.P NINJA

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Originally Posted by Nielk

wellp This is it Everyone 5.08 is our buff and 5.1 Their gutted our class because they refuse to TOUCH Trick Attack Everyone Says Either get rid of it or nerf it and Raise our Damn Personal Dps Since its the Highest Requirement Skill base Class with Good Ping Requirement and they Still Refuse to do said that. Wellp R.I.P NINJA

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Yep. I suggest swapping to MNK/DRG like everyone else. SAM if you can stomach waiting until 5.08. I don't think NIN will be any better come 5.1, my gut feeling is the "rework" will make us less clunky, with the same shit damage since TA isn't getting touched.

If they just removed TA or made it for self only, it would really ease up their struggle with balancing at its core. They can still retain NIN's uniqueness without having it stay a glorified party buff. When it comes to Ten-Chi-Jin hoiwever, I dont feel that it needs to be mobile. Just ramp up the potency so you really have to hit that where it fits best. aka.. retain the skill cap. Dumbing down Ten-Chi-Jin will only open for more justification of our already low DPS.

Also, Thank you SE for making NIN banned from participation in about 90% of the Statics/PFs for Savage progression.

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Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

If they just removed TA or made it for self only, it would really ease up their struggle with balancing at its core. They can still retain NIN's uniqueness without having it stay a glorified party buff. When it comes to Ten-Chi-Jin hoiwever, I dont feel that it needs to be mobile. Just ramp up the potency so you really have to hit that where it fits best. aka.. retain the skill cap. Dumbing down Ten-Chi-Jin will only open for more justification of our already low DPS.

Also, Thank you SE for making NIN banned from participation in about 90% of the Statics/PFs for Savage progression.

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I don't even think it would need to be removed entirely if they just made it more beneficial to the Ninja. Have it cause a heavy bleed DoT or give the Ninja a personal buff alongside the vulnerability. Or have certain skills or Ninjutsu auto-crit when Trick Attack is active. Have Trick Attack reset the timer on Bunshin. I'm just tossing out ideas, but there could be more interesting ways to address TA than just removing it altogether.

As for Ten-Chi-Jin, I get what you're saying, but it feels so out of place given Ninja's inherent theme of mobility. I don't know that any increase in potency is going to make it feel like it belongs. If it's not going to be mobile, I would suggest having it create a "field" similar to Ley Lines. Standing in the field resets Mudra cast times, doubles the potency, and can be consumed 3 times before the field expires. That way, you essentially get the same effect as TCJ, but if you have to move you can at least re-enter it.

I like the ley-lines idea. It does give a bit of quality of life, and would not net it to be nerfed.

Honestly, I think NIN should have gotten Six-Sided Star instead of MNK. NIN has a lot of skills it needs to weave in GCD cooldowns, Mudras mostly, and there's a lot it needs to fix in Trick Attack windows. A Six-Sided Star-like skill would help a long way with that.

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Originally Posted by inhaledcorn

Honestly, I think NIN should have gotten Six-Sided Star instead of MNK. NIN has a lot of skills it needs to weave in GCD cooldowns, Mudras mostly, and there's a lot it needs to fix in Trick Attack windows. A Six-Sided Star-like skill would help a long way with that.

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How would that help, exactly? I'm not a seasoned Monk, myself.

Something that would help melee in general would be to make it so ranged attacks do not interrupt your current combo.

I think the only reason MNK has Six-Sided Star is because they're the only melee that doesn't have a ranged attack.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Something that would help melee in general would be to make it so ranged attacks do not interrupt your current combo.

I think the only reason MNK has Six-Sided Star is because they're the only melee that doesn't have a ranged attack.

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Ummm.. that may have been true in SB and before... but ... we have a hadoken now. :o
https://i.imgur.com/9V6Zowc.jpg

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

How would that help, exactly? I'm not a seasoned Monk, myself.

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Basically it's a stronger attack at the expense of a longer gcd cooldown. Perfect for doing right before a 3-part ninjutsu without clipping.

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Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

If they just removed TA or made it for self only, it would really ease up their struggle with balancing at its core. They can still retain NIN's uniqueness without having it stay a glorified party buff. When it comes to Ten-Chi-Jin hoiwever, I dont feel that it needs to be mobile. Just ramp up the potency so you really have to hit that where it fits best. aka.. retain the skill cap. Dumbing down Ten-Chi-Jin will only open for more justification of our already low DPS.

Also, Thank you SE for making NIN banned from participation in about 90% of the Statics/PFs for Savage progression.

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Dumbing down TCJ could never amount to that, cause for some stupid reason literally everyone on this forum think class difficulty shouldn't be correlated with class potential damage at all. They argue this all the time so NIN and the other difficult classes don't get buffed. That logic has to go two ways. Dumbing down TCJ is absolutely no reason to reduce its potency. We are the highest punished class for latency, ping, deaths, bunnies, clipping, in the game. The class is complex enough to warrant being given movement during TCJ

There are a couple options tho.

1: keep TCJ movement locked, remove the need to cast ninjutsu, Cast on mudra input, push each mudra CD to 1 instead of .5. This cuts out 1.5 seconds so its a little less punishing, and is a slight buff wrapped in one.
2: Make it like leylines, It remains there for a duration and if the ninjutsu are cast inside it they do the full 150% bonus, if cast outside they get only a 50% bonus. Inspiring attempts to stay inside, but less punishment if you have to move.
3: Completely free up TCJ movement and keep it as is, remove Bunny from its cast so that latency spikes and lag as you enter TCJ are less likely to F you over.

And for those that have some weird kinda fetish love with the immobility that TCJ forces, Why the heck? We are NINs... being animation locked by Assassinate is more than enough immobility in cumulus for a class that is stylistically defined by agility, and has the most positional requirements now that Earths reply is a thing.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Basically it's a stronger attack at the expense of a longer gcd cooldown. Perfect for doing right before a 3-part ninjutsu without clipping.

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Actually yes. This makes so much sense. asix sided star type move would work so fluidly with our kit. You could use it before TCJ, before a triple weave mudra, and when having to jump away from the boss to dodge. This is a buff/skill that would do so much for us.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

Dumbing down TCJ could never amount to that, cause for some stupid reason literally everyone on this forum think class difficulty shouldn't be correlated with class potential damage at all. They argue this all the time so NIN and the other difficult classes don't get buffed. That logic has to go two ways. Dumbing down TCJ is absolutely no reason to reduce its potency. We are the highest punished class for latency, ping, deaths, bunnies, clipping, in the game. The class is complex enough to warrant being given movement during TCJ

There are a couple options tho.

1: keep TCJ movement locked, remove the need to cast ninjutsu, Cast on mudra input, push each mudra CD to 1 instead of .5. This cuts out 1.5 seconds so its a little less punishing, and is a slight buff wrapped in one.
2: Make it like leylines, It remains there for a duration and if the ninjutsu are cast inside it they do the full 150% bonus, if cast outside they get only a 50% bonus. Inspiring attempts to stay inside, but less punishment if you have to move.
3: Completely free up TCJ movement and keep it as is, remove Bunny from its cast so that latency spikes and lag as you enter TCJ are less likely to F you over.

And for those that have some weird kinda fetish love with the immobility that TCJ forces, Why the heck? We are NINs... being animation locked by Assassinate is more than enough immobility in cumulus for a class that is stylistically defined by agility, and has the most positional requirements now that Earths reply is a thing.

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all these are good ideas except We need TCJ to be Mobile Ability Because its Horrible to Use if you press it in any savage fights you lose dps because your forced to finish your 3 jutsu instead of doing just 1.
TCJ Has A spike Latency (Lag) Check sometimes (90%) it will lag a bit at start with animation then you gotta finish it. so your combos lacking damage
If it was made like Kassatsu it would be Better to keep it mobile and it'll be 1 move and won't interrupt your Rotation and Ninja is bad spot , LB, TCJ, Death or Bunny will Cost your WHOLE ROTATION. Making you quickly lose alot of damage.

while mnk /drg can lb not lose pace off their whole rotation.

I wish Ninja was in a better spot at personal DPS... but they have also been one of the most problematic jobs. Since thier inception NIN basically always had a reservation it feels like in every PF to where you basically almost had to make room for one no matter what because of Trick/Shadewalker. It limited the melee DPS roles to only allow 1 other job, which 90% of the time was DRG because you likely had a BRD and they demanded a DRG. This left MNK/SAM out in the cold for no reason besides DRG being mandatory for the most played DPS job in the game (BRD) and Ninja just being too important for Tanks to keep hate so they could have proper openers. The concern is that if Ninja is buffed too much, because you guys have Trick Attack you will just become a mandatory slot in the melee DPS again forcing another lack of variety in party composition. I want Ninja to be carefully looked at, and I do mean carefully. You guys definately need buffs, but too much and you could be screwing over all other melee DPS.

Ideally, I think NIN should be like 1-1.5K DPS lower then MNK/DRG/SAM since that's about how much Trick Attack contributes to raid DPS on average.

Right now it's closer to 3K DPS lower hence why they suck even with Trick Attack being a factor.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Ideally, I think NIN should be like 1-1.5K DPS lower then MNK/DRG/SAM since that's about how much Trick Attack contributes to raid DPS on average.

Right now it's closer to 3K DPS lower hence why they suck even with Trick Attack being a factor.

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You forget the utility mnk and drg hold..

If balance was done as we see with other classes with fairness and rdps valued for its contribution the line up would be.

SAM highest pDPS best rDPS 50th percentile and down.
DRG next highest pDPS best rDPS 50th to 75th percentile
NIN and MNK lowest pDPS. NIN highest rDPS 75th percentiles up as his buff is the largest and thus most variant.
MNK higher rDPS than SAM at 50th percentile up, but lower than NIN and DRG because of mantra.

The game will never ne perfectly balanced. But that would theoretically be the best balance where every class felt valued. SAM would be the best prog and casual melee with MNK for mantra. DRG and SAM would or MNK DRG would be the best mid tier, and NIN +SAM would be the meta for speed running and speed running alone. But all would be extremely viable at any skill lvl.

SAM woyld be the most common potentially cause its valuable at all levels with above in mind

Also trick only contributes 1k even at very high end play typically. 1.5k is very much an overestimate right now.

Its generally between 500 and 1k. 500 being pug or missed trick. 1 k being the static group.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

I wish Ninja was in a better spot at personal DPS... but they have also been one of the most problematic jobs. Since thier inception NIN basically always had a reservation it feels like in every PF to where you basically almost had to make room for one no matter what because of Trick/Shadewalker. It limited the melee DPS roles to only allow 1 other job, which 90% of the time was DRG because you likely had a BRD and they demanded a DRG. This left MNK/SAM out in the cold for no reason besides DRG being mandatory for the most played DPS job in the game (BRD) and Ninja just being too important for Tanks to keep hate so they could have proper openers. The concern is that if Ninja is buffed too much, because you guys have Trick Attack you will just become a mandatory slot in the melee DPS again forcing another lack of variety in party composition. I want Ninja to be carefully looked at, and I do mean carefully. You guys definately need buffs, but too much and you could be screwing over all other melee DPS.

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I do agree with this, and it is yet another reason I want TA gutted so we're not mandatory because of one ability. We need it removed or nerfed to 5%, and be compensated by being much closer with the other melee dps.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

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While you dont want to make something way too good comparatively, at the same time you dont wamt to short change. The issue is that people echo whatever the meta is. "We need a ninja" "why?" "For tick attack". Im almost willing to bet that a lot of those pf groups that wanted a nin that was meta did less dps than they would have with another melee. You dont just put trick on the boss and boom raid is WAY stronger, no they have to sync up.

No matter what, SOMEONE will crunch rhe numbers and fine what is best dps wise, there will NEVER be a time where someone wont min-max and determine what is meta.

Nin needs to be carefully looked at? Not really, look at its max rdps from trick, is it 1000? Make a nin like 700 or 800 behind. In a well coordinated static TA is a benefit, in a pug, they still do way less dps than another melee.

Or if it needs to be that carefully looked at, SE then has officially created a stigma with NIN being meta, so get shift what its utility is and buff its damage, because if ninja was 2k dps behind everyone else, and they do 2 rdps more than the next melee (not even top) someone will go "ITS NOT BALANCED"

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Originally Posted by Laur1x

I do agree with this, and it is yet another reason I want TA gutted so we're not mandatory because of one ability. We need it removed or nerfed to 5%, and be compensated by being much closer with the other melee dps.

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I say remove it completely or make it a self buff only. Reducing its effectiveness will not solve the overall ninja problem.