Customizable pronouns

My preferred pronoun is motherf--

https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net.../BanHammer.gif

I dont understand how for ppl in the USA is so difficult to just call somebody they if they want to

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Originally Posted by Siete

I'll keep going with my stance.
Why are you trying to force stuff of our world into the game's world?
Do you have so little respect for other cultures? This attitude reminds me of America's Colonization.

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The sad part about this is that this seems to be going from an English only standpoint. I have yet to see any of them come up with a solution on how this would work in languages who may have different words/meanings. Or if they even have an official neutral term that fits well in dialogue. Like how someone brought up they/them - how in English that's actually more common to use when you're addressing a group and not an individual. Zero thought going into it other than the western viewpoint of English speakers.

I'm from bloody England and I know more than enough that it's not easy to just add in some random option, it has to flow correctly, otherwise, the delivery suffers.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

How is it a scare tactic when it's the truth. You did not state which genders are to be chosen. You can't stomp your feet and go 'no, you can't bring those up' when we both know said people are also in this community. Nor can you act like I'm being an arse for bringing it up. Draw a line. Simple.

You can then deal with the people who have those weird tumblr pronouns and say how you don't agree with them and have a proper discussion. Far as I'm concerned those are mentally ill individuals, just like gender dysphoria is a mental illness that can often result in adverse effects on one's mental state, even after going through various treatments to align with the sex they desire. And the argument for this is that society doesn't make room for them, yet this does nothing to aid in that plight. All it does is show you personally that pronoun change - it does not show anyone else outside what your pronoun is, so they're just going to say the wrong pronoun anyway. That's what happens when your avatar is either male or female and has no in-between.

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I didn’t stomp my feet and say you “can’t” bring it up, I just pointed out why it’s not really relevant to this specific thread. If you’ve already lumped in those identities as a whole community with no discrepancy you’ve already backed yourself into a corner. Remember the time there were Peadophiles trying to put themselves in the LGBT+ community? Yeah, that didn’t work out so well did it. It’s at best ignorant and, at worst, callous of you to assume ALL non conforming identities are equal. No one has said that here. This conversation is about non-binary, so gender NEUTRAL, not rabies gender or other true nonsense.

You seem really worked up and defensive, I didn’t call or imply you’re an arse at all, I just responded to what you said and why it’s a very big reach in this threads desire for NON-BINARY pronouns. The line was drawn at the very beginning, but you’ve seemed to ignore that, and also clearly didn’t read my response well, as I drew the line in this thread AT non binary.

The way people in this thread approach and treat just the very concept of nonbinary people make me really reluctant to post here anymore. To be told "hm yeah your gender is [this] but I see you as [that] so that's what I'm going to call you so there" and claim that because there's so few nonbinary people in the overall population that literally anything we ask for isn't worth it. To be seen as someone with so little value hurts a lot. Must be fun to be part of the majority all the time. Easy mode. Also, all the "hee haw I'm a computer/cat/whatever so respect my gender!!!" jokes are really cool and definitely not pulled from like 2012.

@ the OP, it would be cool to have 'they' pronouns as an option, even though I'm nb and use he/him. More options for character creation and uniqueness is always welcome, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

The sad part about this is that this seems to be going from an English only standpoint. I have yet to see any of them come up with a solution on how this would work in languages who may have different words/meanings. Or if they even have an official neutral term that fits well in dialogue. Like how someone brought up they/them - how in English that's actually more common to use when you're addressing a group and not an individual. Zero thought going into it other than the western viewpoint of English speakers.

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See this is a point I agree with you on. We’ve only discussed the English side mostly, so you’re right, it’s not gonna be a realistic change at all unless it can be argued for every localisation. That’s a conversation to be had for sure.

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Originally Posted by zeylos

I dont understand how for ppl in the USA is so difficult to just call somebody they if they want to

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Simple, we're not 24/7 at 100% brain activity thinking everything we do, our brains have premade paths of neural thinking and reacting created by repetition repetition repetition and repetition. So we're mostly on automode, otherwise our brains would literally boil.
So, when we talk, much of what we spew is made by this auto-mode.
If you want people to use those "new" ways of reffering to someone, they have to get those neural patterns remade. Which by the way, it's quite taxing, energy demanding and mildly painful. Just like studying.
Basically, it's a huge effort, you should be enormously thankful to people who make such a titanic task as rewiring their neuronal network just so you hear the "right" word when they talk to you.

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Originally Posted by Siete

Basically, it's a huge effort, you should be enormously thankful to people who make such a titanic task as rewiring their neuronal network just so you hear the "right" word when they talk to you.

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I'm pretty sure it's only hard to call someone "they" if you're stubborn and refuse to change your ways. It's actually pretty easy. If you care enough about showing everyone the minimum amount of respect to call them the right name, pronouns, etc., then it's not hard. Saying it's too difficult shows a lack of respect under most circumstances (unless you have some sort of condition that may make such things more difficult, but most people don't).

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Originally Posted by Cled-cat

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I do remember the whole MAP, situation. I simply don't think this is the place to open up this can of worms. My argument is this, why should the gender-neutral get something and not the others? That's the point I'm trying to make. As of such, I found it very much relevant. Do I wish them to have their pronouns, no, I don't agree with them. Do I agree with a neutral pronoun, yes, but it's most likely impossible with this game in regards to their code. This is why game such as cyberpunk and vampire masquerade should be celebrated because you can pick your pronoun/desired body, they don't care - it doesn't affect the gameplay. This, however, does affect the gameplay to an extent.

The negatives seem to outweigh the positives. As MMO, this is a QoL feature that will only be used by a certain few, yet take a large chunk of time in order to complete and then continue. We already have an issue with missing genders; where they have time constraints. This would be something else that would be needed to be added so they can meet their release dates. Even if it makes them smile to see the dialogue in the text stating their correct gender pronoun, this is then destroyed by voiced dialogue which will say male/female and the social aspect of the game where most people will use your avatars pronoun to address you. From what I've studied, seen and witnessed the adverse effects of this outweighs the pro in my opinion. And this can be seen in plenty of scientific documentation regarding the situation. You can indeed, give, but when you take at the same time it's emotionally draining. The same goes from switching from 'they/them' to 'he/she' in every other conversation.

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Originally Posted by Siete

Simple, we're not 24/7 at 100% brain activity thinking everything we do, our brains have premade paths of neural thinking and reacting created by repetition repetition repetition and repetition. So we're mostly on automode, otherwise our brains would literally boil.
So, when we talk, much of what we spew is made by this auto-mode.
If you want people to use those "new" ways of reffering to someone, they have to get those neural patterns remade. Which by the way, it's quite taxing, energy demanding and mildly painful. Just like studying.
Basically, it's a huge effort, you should be enormously thankful to people who make such a titanic task as rewiring their neuronal network just so you hear the "right" word when they talk to you.

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Wow, I haven’t heard that one before. I wonder how that applied for racists in the 50’s and 60’s, did their brains blow up from not being able to say the N-word anymore? I bet that rewiring of their brains was enormously difficult, we should be “enormously thankful” that they started to treat people with respect! Smh. Your “argument” is just a appeal to nature fallacy based on us humans apparently being hardwired machines with our languages and way we refer to each other instead of us actually having a mutable and adaptive understanding of words and their meanings, and how our language changes accordingly. Once there’s studies of friends and loved ones of trans relatives’s brain scans and the subsequent “rewiring” to accommodate the new pronouns, let me know!

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Originally Posted by Doozer

I'm pretty sure it's only hard to call someone "they" if you're stubborn and refuse to change your ways. It's actually pretty easy. If you care enough about showing everyone the minimum amount of respect to call them the right name, pronouns, etc., then it's not hard. Saying it's too difficult shows a lack of respect under most circumstances (unless you have some sort of condition that may make such things more difficult, but most people don't).

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What makes you pretty sure of that?
Have you even read my post? Are you trying to prove wrong how the human brain works? I'd say pretty go inform yourself. It's not a matter of stubborness but learning. What you're asking for is a simple word but the word you're trying to change is something pretty hardcoded into the brain, using the "right" word every single time and out of the blue would incur the person to go into manual mode every single time until after some months or years the words come out natural. Going into manual mode for speech is hugely taxing as I said. Like giving a thesis presentation in front of important people.
You're asking a lot from people, what are you giving in return for such a favor?

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Originally Posted by Cled-cat

Wow, I haven’t heard that one before. I wonder how that applied for racists in the 50’s and 60’s, did their brains blow up from not being able to say the N-word anymore? I bet that rewiring of their brains was enormously difficult, we should be “enormously thankful” that they started to treat people with respect! Smh. Your “argument” is just a appeal to nature fallacy based on us humans apparently being hardwired machines with our languages and way we refer to each other instead of us actually having a mutable and adaptive understanding of words and their meanings, and how our language changes accordingly. Once there’s studies of friends and loved ones of trans relatives’s brain scans and the subsequent “rewiring” to accommodate the new pronouns, let me know!

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This.

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Originally Posted by Siete

What makes you pretty sure of that?
Have you even read my post? Are you trying to prove wrong how the human brain works? I'd say pretty go inform yourself. It's not a matter of stubborness but learning. What you're asking for is a simple word but the word you're trying to change is something pretty hardcoded into the brain, using the "right" word every single time and out of the blue would incur the person to go into manual mode every single time until after some months or years the words come out natural. Going into manual mode for speech is hugely taxing as I said. Like giving a thesis presentation in front of important people.
You're asking a lot from people, what are you giving in return for such a favor?

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"They" is part of English already, at least. I can't speak for others. If you can remember to call one friend "he" and not accidentally call your other friend "he" when that person uses "she", you can do the same with "they". It's like juggling; if you can juggle two things you can juggle three. It only requires a little bit of adapting and is not as difficult as learning how to do it in the first place.

And that last sentence is just disgusting. Saying I should do something for someone in order to receive the most basic of respect? I hope I never meet you or anyone like you in person.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

This. /10char

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My phone is dying so I’m gonna be off this thread for tonight soon, probably a good thing judging by how the thread is going

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Originally Posted by Cled-cat

My phone is dying so I’m gonna be off this thread for tonight soon, probably a good thing judging by how the thread is going

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Yeah. Some people here are pretty scummy and are not much of a joy to interact with. I've said my piece, so I'll let them be disrespectful and lacking empathy for other humans without me.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

I do remember the whole MAP, situation. I simply don't think this is the place to open up this can of worms. My argument is this, why should the gender-neutral get something and not the others? That's the point I'm trying to make. As of such, I found it very much relevant. Do I wish them to have their pronouns, no, I don't agree with them. Do I agree with a neutral pronoun, yes, but it's most likely impossible with this game in regards to their code. This is why game such as cyberpunk and vampire masquerade should be celebrated because you can pick your pronoun/desired body, they don't care - it doesn't affect the gameplay. This however does affect the gameplay to an extent.

The negatives seem to outweigh the positives. As MMO, this is a QoL feature that will only be used by a certain few, yet take a large chunk of time in order to complete and then continue. We already have an issue with missing genders; where they have time constraints. This would be something else that would be needed to be added so they can meet their release dates. Even if it makes them smile to see the dialogue in the text stating their correct gender pronoun, this is then destroyed by voiced dialogue which will say male/female and the social aspect of the game where most people will use your avatars pronoun to address you. From what I've studied, seen and witnessed the adverse effects of this does not outweigh the con. And this can be seen in plenty of scientific documentation regarding the situation. You can indeed, give, but when you take at the same time it's emotionally draining. The same goes from switching from 'they/them' to 'he/she' in every other conversation.

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That’s definitely an interesting point. It’s pretty much a pipe-dream at this point to ask for sweeping changes to this established game already. The lack of consistency would be pretty off-putting yeah, so unless they did wanna go fully 100% in to adding extra voice overs to keep the immersion it is pretty unlikely. However I personally would be pretty happy with even just the text options, many non-binary people who ever get the rare acknowledgment of their preferred pronouns still feel super grateful for it, so that’s an argument to be had.

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Originally Posted by Cled-cat

Wow, I haven’t heard that one before. I wonder how that applied for racists in the 50’s and 60’s, did their brains blow up from not being able to say the N-word anymore? I bet that rewiring of their brains was enormously difficult, we should be “enormously thankful” that they started to treat people with respect! Smh. Your “argument” is just a appeal to nature fallacy based on us humans apparently being hardwired machines with our languages and way we refer to each other instead of us actually having a mutable and adaptive understanding of words and their meanings, and how our language changes accordingly. Once there’s studies of friends and loved ones of trans relatives’s brain scans and the subsequent “rewiring” to accommodate the new pronouns, let me know!

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There are no studies specific to "friends and loved ones of trans relatives’s brain scans and the subsequent “rewiring” to accommodate the new pronouns" that I know of, but hundreds of studies in parallel learnings which are pretty much the same. You should use google and find out how it works and what you're asking for to be done in an eye blink. We're indeed hardwired machines through life's experiences, which means that hardwiring can constantly change, at a cost of course, which I explicitly mentioned.
Also, why are you pulling the 50's 60's card here? That makes anything you say lose any value it could have.
If you want to play it that way, don't you find it amazing how much society changed in 50 years? FIFTY YEARS. It wasn't a day, a week or a month, it took FIFTY YEARS of PEOPLE WILLING TO CHANGE.
Yes, we should all be enormously thankful to all those who decided to make the titanic effort to change, go against the norm, risk their life and stop the racism you mention. If it wasn't for them, imagine the world we would live in today :)

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

I was wondering if it might be possible to set different pronouns for written dialogue and system messages, either through the character creation process or something in the options menu? It would be a nice little bit of inclusion to have in the game.

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Can we keep the gender confusion in the RL please?

It annoys the crap out of me that the human race even dignifies this nonsensical first world problem with so much attention (the human species only has 2 biological genders, end of story. Deal with it, none of us got to choose), I really don't need it to creep into fantasy worlds as well (though it's only a matter of time, as the indoctrination will continue until absolute conformity is enforced).

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Yeah. Some people here are pretty scummy and are not much of a joy to interact with. I've said my piece, so I'll let them be disrespectful and lacking empathy for other humans without me.

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Most people here have been really quite civil, especially compared to the last big thread on non-binary options. My partner made the mistake of being too confrontational so that invited a whole host of trolls and pettiness, and that’s probably why it derailed so harshly into ad-hom and insults, but it’s good to see this thread is actually not too toxic besides the few trademark trolls. Empathy is a rare thing these days, definitely appreciate anyone you know that shows it.

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Originally Posted by Cled-cat

That’s definitely an interesting point. It’s pretty much a pipe-dream at this point to ask for sweeping changes to this established game already. The lack of consistency would be pretty off-putting yeah, so unless they did wanna go fully 100% in to adding extra voice overs to keep the immersion it is pretty unlikely. However I personally would be pretty happy with even just the text options, many non-binary people who ever get the rare acknowledgment of their preferred pronouns still feel super grateful for it, so that’s an argument to be had.

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The rare acknowledgement would indeed be nice, but sadly, I can only see this happening where people around the person use their correct pronoun in addressing them. The game itself will not adjust to this, but the people can. We're much likely to see this in future games; more specifically in RPG single player rather than MMO.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Can we keep the gender confusion in the RL please?

It annoys the crap out of me that the human race even dignifies this nonsensical first world problem with so much attention (the human species only has 2 biological genders, end of story. Deal with it, none of us got to choose), I really don't need it to creep into fantasy worlds as well (though it's only a matter of time, as the indoctrination will continue until absolute conformity is enforced).

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Watch out, your tin-foil hat is slipping off there.

This is entirely a cultural thing. Just as it is in real life.

When I played the game BattleTech on Steam, they used nonbinary pronouns. The game is set in the 31st Century, One Thousands years into the future. It makes sense that the future would have a different culture and then it makes sense within that setting. In FFXIV they have established a culture already. Changing it now would be pandering.

Some of you have taken jabs at Americans for this. I would appreciate it if you stopped doing that and instead respected our culture.

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Originally Posted by Cled-cat

Watch out, your tin-foil hat is slipping off there.

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But it has a rubber band, see? It cannot fall off!

Judge me if you want, but I've some bad news for you. This non binary political correct stuff is strictly a western culture idea and philosophy. Japan is most definitely not part of it and probably never will be.

Someone using racism as their point to those of us needing to be more inclusive is immature and childish imho. My stance is far simpler. Get thicker skin and quit thinking the world owes you anything. Life gives back what you put into it, nothing more. Think I get offended from how many people call me "Dude" when am gaming? Nope... People say hundreds of offensive things a day to each other, last I checked the grown ups don't care since words are words, nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

This.



"They" is part of English already, at least. I can't speak for others. If you can remember to call one friend "he" and not accidentally call your other friend "he" when that person uses "she", you can do the same with "they". It's like juggling; if you can juggle two things you can juggle three. It only requires a little bit of adapting and is not as difficult as learning how to do it in the first place.

And that last sentence is just disgusting. Saying I should do something for someone in order to receive the most basic of respect? I hope I never meet you or anyone like you in person.

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Disgusting?
You are changing the way they people talks, rewiring their automated speech, and what do they get for being nice and respecting you? Self entitled attitudes making their extra effort worthless.

One sec, I think I found a way to TL;DR this thread!
Self entitlement.

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Originally Posted by Komarimono

Someone using racism as their point to those of us needing to be more inclusive is immature and childish imho.

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I'm all for homosexuals getting equal rights, being treated with the same respect as any other human being, no matter their alignment. That's just basic common decency.Frankly put (and this may offend people): I don't give damn whether you identify yourself as a female spirit stuck in a mans body or as an asexual AI inhabiting a fleshy form. I will treat you like any human being, that means no kid gloves, no exceptions.

That is RL though. We are talking about a fictional game world. It doesn't matter what I identify myself with IRL when I play Ifalna I am a female Miqo'te. I can RP her as a lesbian, I can RP her as straight, I can even RP her as a cat that would love to be male but hasn't the option (since gender reassignment doesn't exist in Eorzea). However I would not want stuff like that forced into a fantasy universe that it wasn't part of to begin with just for the sake of "being inclusive" as that would be heavily immersion breaking.

Either design a world to be transhuman/transgender/gender neutral from the ground up and write the culture around it or don't. Don't try to tack it on later.

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Originally Posted by Komarimono

Judge me if you want, but I've some bad news for you. This non binary political correct stuff is strictly a western culture idea and philosophy. Japan is most definitely not part of it and probably never will be.

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Binary gender as you've been taught is mostly a very Western notion and relatively fairly modern. Indigenous cultures prior to the colonization of the Americas included genders that didn't fit the traditional Western male or female model, for instance. In medieval Europe, there is evidence that gender lines were crossed or at the very least blurrier than what we enforce today, depending on culture.

It's also very weird to see this notion of Japanese culture not having nonbinary people. Nonbinary Japanese do exist. They navigate their culture differently than we Americans do ours, but they do exist. Japan is not a monolithic ultra-conservative culture. Like any other nation, Japan is inhabited by people of all stripes that each have to navigate the rules of their dominant culture differently. Yoshi P is clearly aware trans people exist. I have no doubt he's aware of nonbinary people too. It's not gonna be a mysterious and mythical thing for a Japanese person.

Can we close this can of worms and move on?

FFXIV =/= Real Life

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Originally Posted by Cled-cat

Most people here have been really quite civil, especially compared to the last big thread on non-binary options. My partner made the mistake of being too confrontational so that invited a whole host of trolls and pettiness, and that’s probably why it derailed so harshly into ad-hom and insults, but it’s good to see this thread is actually not too toxic besides the few trademark trolls. Empathy is a rare thing these days, definitely appreciate anyone you know that shows it.

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Well then, if we're going to talk about empathy, show some.
No one here is going against non-binary options, heck, it'd be great if we could make non-binary people feel respected and welcomed and and, comfy? Using the right pronouns. But it is taxing, it can't be done so fast and most people makes an effort but finally is met with entitled aggressive attitudes when they fail to properly deliver ultimately making me question "Why even bother anymore? Nothing done will ever be enough".
What I do fully go against is trying to transgress another world with rules of the inhabitants of this world.

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Originally Posted by Siete

Simple, we're not 24/7 at 100% brain activity thinking everything we do, our brains have premade paths of neural thinking and reacting created by repetition repetition repetition and repetition. So we're mostly on automode, otherwise our brains would literally boil.
So, when we talk, much of what we spew is made by this auto-mode.
If you want people to use those "new" ways of reffering to someone, they have to get those neural patterns remade. Which by the way, it's quite taxing, energy demanding and mildly painful. Just like studying.
Basically, it's a huge effort, you should be enormously thankful to people who make such a titanic task as rewiring their neuronal network just so you hear the "right" word when they talk to you.

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so ur sayign that ppl on the USA cant handle to think about what they're doing? I mean, I think its just a matter of trying to just do something easy that will help others and not harm anybody in any way. Its interesting to see the differences between cultures. I dont mean any disrespect to anyone and if u feel something I say is offensive tell me and I'll edit it out

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Originally Posted by Komarimono

People say hundreds of offensive things a day to each other

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People say hundreds of things a day that people choose to view as offensive. Yes, choose.

Obviously there are instances of genuinely offensive statements or behaviors, but it has been brought to an extreme. Social media has turned everyone into victims and scholars. Everyone has the answer to life and how to live it, and everyone takes personal offense to everything that any of their senses interact with.

So.. real question here.. how many people would actually use this feature? Be honest. Any change to the entire game requires investment of resources no matter how small you may think it is. And this is far more than most people seem to think.. This game has DAYS of text to pour through and rework, in English alone.

This is a localization nightmare btw.

Serious question. How many people in this thread, not virtue signaling, would actually mess around with the pronoun thing longer than they did picking their "birthday" in this game? And not cause it'd be funny have everyone call you "zer". Seriously it would make this game better for you, that kind of "use".


Not "I support..." or "people should.. " but "I would definitely use this and not just because it's there, it is a feature I desire". OP is 1..

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

Binary gender as you've been taught is mostly a very Western notion and relatively fairly modern. Indigenous cultures prior to the colonization of the Americas included genders that didn't fit the traditional Western male or female model, for instance. In medieval Europe, there is evidence that gender lines were crossed or at the very least blurrier than what we enforce today, depending on culture.

It's also very weird to see this notion of Japanese culture not having nonbinary people. Nonbinary Japanese do exist. They navigate their culture differently than we Americans do ours, but they do exist. Japan is not a monolithic ultra-conservative culture. Like any other nation, Japan is inhabited by people of all stripes that each have to navigate the rules of their dominant culture differently. Yoshi P is clearly aware trans people exist. I have no doubt he's aware of nonbinary people too. It's not gonna be a mysterious and mythical thing for a Japanese person.

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Yes, we do exist.
But the difference is most of us are not flaunting it like it's something special or wanting attention for it. If you need to rely on someones words to set your self worth instead of relying on yourself and actions to do so, you've already lost in life and you're being self entitled more then the other if prefer to have these pronouns used.

We're human beings and words are not what treats us different but the actions of others for or against you in life. Quit using emotions to control your life, start using that wonderful powerful organ in your head and start treating it better as well. This whole movement to make others include people like myself and others in far and expansive ways since the population of people like me is less then 4% of the entire world, is just so odd. I don't want people bending over backwards for me, I don't want them to do anything other then treat me the same way I treat them. And I sure as heck don't get offended if they refer to me by a pronoun that I emotionally feel does not fit my non binary gender.

I'm not special, just me. No LGBTQ+infinite is special. We're as human as anyone else, simple as that. Just go on with your life and quit expecting the world to treat us better for no reason. Quit using your sexuality define you, humans are far more then that and limiting them otherwise is silly.

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Originally Posted by Komarimono

Yes, we do exist.

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Thank you for writing that.
People need to see this.
This is how I want any non binary gender person to behave.

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Originally Posted by Komarimono

Yes, we do exist.
But the difference is most of us are not flaunting it like it's something special or wanting attention for it. If you need to rely on someones words to set your self worth instead of relying on yourself and actions to do so, you've already lost in life and you're being self entitled more then the other if prefer to have these pronouns used.

We're human beings and words are not what treats us different but the actions of others for or against you in life. Quit using emotions to control your life, start using that wonderful powerful organ in your head and start treating it better as well. This whole movement to make others include people like myself and others in far and expansive ways since the population of people like me is less then 4% of the entire world, is just so odd. I don't want people bending over backwards for me, I don't want them to do anything other then treat me the same way I treat them. And I sure as heck don't get offended if they refer to me by a pronoun that I emotionally feel does not fit my non binary gender.

I'm not special, just me. No LGBTQ+infinite is special. We're as human as anyone else, simple as that. Just go on with your life and quit expecting the world to treat us better for no reason. Quit using your sexuality define you, humans are far more then that and limiting them otherwise is silly.

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A thousand times this, I'm pretty much non-binary IRL and that I hold just for me, I don't give a *beep* about how others see me or refer to me, heck most of the times people misspell my real name simply because how weird it is and I'm kept being called whatever that is not my name lol.

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Originally Posted by Siete

Simple, we're not 24/7 at 100% brain activity thinking everything we do, our brains have premade paths of neural thinking and reacting created by repetition repetition repetition and repetition. So we're mostly on automode, otherwise our brains would literally boil.
So, when we talk, much of what we spew is made by this auto-mode.
If you want people to use those "new" ways of reffering to someone, they have to get those neural patterns remade. Which by the way, it's quite taxing, energy demanding and mildly painful. Just like studying.
Basically, it's a huge effort, you should be enormously thankful to people who make such a titanic task as rewiring their neuronal network just so you hear the "right" word when they talk to you.

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I'm reminded of someone I've known for a long time changing their name. Definitely messes with the flow for a while, and I still mess it up lol. But they're patient and never give me grief or attempt to correct me and I always correct myself.

Also beyond names though gender's definition seems to be called into question more so than in the loose assumed past (wasn't really any wiggle room or allowed discussion on it), some see it more of a state of mind and others a state of biology. Unfortunately for both parties who both want to be right there is the issue that language is not distinctly prescriptive. . . A bit like living culture. So even if it was supposed to be X or should be X doesn't mean it will be once the majority adopt a meaning.

A minor silly example to me is I know the group words for many animals but I don't use them because I feel it's silly and would like to promote simpler groupings, as cool as a murder of crows sounds I feel it's not helpful for the language and so I "do my part" in helping that continue to become archaic (like when corrected by someone suggesting to use the animal group word I'd say thanks and then continue not to use that word lol).

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Originally Posted by Doozer

I'm pretty sure it's only hard to call someone "they" if you're stubborn and refuse to change your ways. It's actually pretty easy. If you care enough about showing everyone the minimum amount of respect to call them the right name, pronouns, etc., then it's not hard. Saying it's too difficult shows a lack of respect under most circumstances (unless you have some sort of condition that may make such things more difficult, but most people don't).

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The issue there is that respect is not always a universal value (subjective). I think a nice example is if someone says "if you don't believe in my god you don't respect me, this is how I view life, how I view the world, everything - it's clearly important to my existence as a person". Honestly that could be a form of disrespect, to them, if you don't show the respect they ask. But especially in the world of religion I would say as a society we know that you don't have to follow their rituals in order to respect them as a person, that you can respect someone of a different religion while also thinking it's false, thinking nothing of it, or worse. Keeping in mind for some religion is a core part of their existence/identity.

So if they ask a person to call them something that the other person doesn't want to, it doesn't demand that it's necessarily disrespect (to the person whose not doing the request, of course the person who's request ignored might feel differently). Or like if your friend asks if the pants make their bum look big, would it be disrespectful to tell the truth? For some no, for others yes. In fact sometimes we have cases where pain is a form of respect "should I tell my friend's partner that my friend is cheating on them?" - it doesn't have to be disrespect to tell the partner the truth (could even say you're respecting your friend by encouraging them to be a better person).

I think the subjectivity is a bit self evident but just wanted to say it because I feel sometimes the respect aspect is brought up as if it was the same truth for everyone. For some, in their own mind, they could refuse to say what you want and still respect you greatly.

Personally I tend to enjoy a relationship of give and take, so I'd use they as a symbol of give but also expect the same sort of flexibility back. If asked to do something then I would find it fair play space (within reason lol). Like I dislike the whole "white cishet male" thing, I know for some it's just a description and nothing more (not intended to be rude, though I feel some use it like a negative. . which is part of why I probably find it annoying), as to me I'm not just my gender or color and I don't want to be labeled or addressed as such (I've been introduced almost as if that was part of my title or name and I asked for them not to do that, which they obliged and of course I thanked them).

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Originally Posted by Komarimono

Yes, we do exist.
But the difference is most of us are not flaunting it like it's something special or wanting attention for it. If you need to rely on someones words to set your self worth instead of relying on yourself and actions to do so, you've already lost in life and you're being self entitled more then the other if prefer to have these pronouns used.

We're human beings and words are not what treats us different but the actions of others for or against you in life. Quit using emotions to control your life, start using that wonderful powerful organ in your head and start treating it better as well. This whole movement to make others include people like myself and others in far and expansive ways since the population of people like me is less then 4% of the entire world, is just so odd. I don't want people bending over backwards for me, I don't want them to do anything other then treat me the same way I treat them. And I sure as heck don't get offended if they refer to me by a pronoun that I emotionally feel does not fit my non binary gender.

I'm not special, just me. No LGBTQ+infinite is special. We're as human as anyone else, simple as that. Just go on with your life and quit expecting the world to treat us better for no reason. Quit using your sexuality define you, humans are far more then that and limiting them otherwise is silly.

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That's cool. That's you. I'm mostly the same but with the sole exception that I prefer people refer to me using they/them pronouns in English. Am I gonna pitch a fit if someone calls me she instead? No. Most of the time, it's a stranger and I'm not going to see them again. It just makes me a lot happier to be included. It's not bending over backwards any more than using binary pronouns already is for most people.

Being nonbinary is not a sexuality. It's a gender identity, which is separate. This "wonderful powerful organ" in my head is most pleased when people at least make the attempt to use gender neutral pronouns. I'm simply asking this game, which tickles my "wonderful power organ", make a change that would make this game better for me. We may be a small part of the world, but that doesn't make us less important or deserving to be ignored.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Thank you for writing that.
People need to see this.
This is how I want any non binary gender person to behave.

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In other words, you want us to be invisible so you can pretend we don't exist? Purely for your benefit?

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

In other words, you want us to be invisible so you can pretend we don't exist? Purely for your benefit?

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What do you mean invisible?
Are you a person or are you just the concept of non-binary? Because you seem more concerned about the concept than yourself.

Also, I'm sorry, but your "wonderful powerful organ" must understand that the world we live in and the world in the game are completely different things, and as far as we know "males" could be laying eggs in the world of FFXIV after holding hands or something.

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

In other words, you want us to be invisible so you can pretend we don't exist? Purely for your benefit?

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Like you want to have others go out of their way for your benefit?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Komarimono

Yes, we do exist.
But the difference is most of us are not flaunting it like it's something special or wanting attention for it. If you need to rely on someones words to set your self worth instead of relying on yourself and actions to do so, you've already lost in life and you're being self entitled more then the other if prefer to have these pronouns used.

We're human beings and words are not what treats us different but the actions of others for or against you in life. Quit using emotions to control your life, start using that wonderful powerful organ in your head and start treating it better as well. This whole movement to make others include people like myself and others in far and expansive ways since the population of people like me is less then 4% of the entire world, is just so odd. I don't want people bending over backwards for me, I don't want them to do anything other then treat me the same way I treat them. And I sure as heck don't get offended if they refer to me by a pronoun that I emotionally feel does not fit my non binary gender.

I'm not special, just me. No LGBTQ+infinite is special. We're as human as anyone else, simple as that. Just go on with your life and quit expecting the world to treat us better for no reason. Quit using your sexuality define you, humans are far more then that and limiting them otherwise is silly.

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https://media.giphy.com/media/3o72Fc...dmDe/giphy.gif

Always great to see someone like yourself with a good head on your shoulders.