White Mage Overflow

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I guarantee that if you stand stubbornly still in the 80 dungeons spamming Holy, you'll either die or get to the point where you have to top yourself or risk a comical death. All 3 expert dungeons have pulls that force you to move regardless of which healer you are on. I'll merrily do a video recording to demonstrate this point if need be.

Again, I'm not trying to say Holy is weak. But blowing things out of proportion is not going to do anyone any favours.

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The only one with non interruptible aoe is emet's dungeon off the top of my head, why would you have to move for other ones before DR kicks in?

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Originally Posted by Kaiten_kenbu

with AST having the most versatility and utility imo.

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Are you back in time and still in SB maybe? :>

Utility is there sure, but a WHM beats an AST for contribution in every form. They have higher DPS contribution and HPS. AST cards atm don't give enough raid DPS to contribute as much as a WHM does with their personal DPS. There is a bad gap between AST and both other healers really.

I don't know why SE thought this was okay...to have AST be so much weaker than both other healers in HPS AND DPS. That isn't balance. They gutted AST CU....then just gave it to SCH instead lol I don't even get their thought process at this point and I have definitely lost any and all faith I had left about them balancing healers.

IMO The balance was so much closer in SB, WHM just needed some help, instead they destroyed the other two healers to make WHM good....instead of just making WHM good :/

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Originally Posted by Miste

Are you back in time and still in SB maybe? :>

Utility is there sure, but a WHM beats an AST for contribution in every form. They have higher DPS contribution and HPS. AST cards atm don't give enough raid DPS to contribute as much as a WHM does with their personal DPS. There is a bad gap between AST and both other healers really.

I don't know why SE thought this was okay...to have AST be so much weaker than both other healers in HPS AND DPS. That isn't balance. They gutted AST CU....then just gave it to SCH instead lol I don't even get their thought process at this point and I have definitely lost any and all faith I had left about them balancing healers.

IMO The balance was so much closer in SB, WHM just needed some help, instead they destroyed the other two healers to make WHM good....instead of just making WHM good :/

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No kidding. All of my OGCD's have low potency and long cool downs. The GCD heal usage for AST is higher then sch or whm. The card system is not fun and competely convoluted at the moment. MP mangement is a headache because of all the GCD healing we have to do making dpsing a pain mostly in 4 man dungeons though. FFlogs is showing AST as the top healer in 80 4 mans...wonder why that is!! OH I know cause we got to spam things like Benefic II and blow multiple OGCD's on large trash pulls. Sorry for the sarcasm :D

AST just looks like an unfun brainache to play now.

But in Stormblood us WHM players got told we were "trash tier" by raiders and were hassled constantly to "switch to AST".

Seems like Square Enix can't get healers right. I also don't understand the amount of people comparing SCH and WHM, it's a stupid comparison. WHM would never replace SCH because Nocturnal AST is really bad.

I'm glad people are starting to see how horrible SE is at healer balancing. It's been like this since freaking HW if you were a WHM. Then we went into SB just as bad, but since it was just WHM it was easy to just sweep the problem under the rug. The fact that SE let a job, with a job guage so useless you could click it off and not notice a thing, sit at the bottom for YEARS is absolutely ridiculous.

I don't see them fixing these healer issues anytime soon either, they have no idea what they're doing or going with them. I'm hoping for the best, but all I see is another situation where SCH and AST is buffed to kings and everyone stays quiet again for 2 years.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I'm glad people are starting to see how horrible SE is at healer balancing. It's been like this since freaking HW if you were a WHM. Then we went into SB just as bad, but since it was just WHM it was easy to just sweep the problem under the rug. The fact that SE let a job, with a job guage so useless you could click it off and not notice a thing, sit at the bottom for YEARS is absolutely ridiculous.

I don't see them fixing these healer issues anytime soon either, they have no idea what they're doing or going with them. I'm hoping for the best, but all I see is another situation where SCH and AST is buffed to kings and everyone stays quiet again for 2 years.

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Had that same feeling that history is going to repeat itself again. Whm can be top dps out of healers, but for healing all of us should be more or less equal.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I'm glad people are starting to see how horrible SE is at healer balancing. It's been like this since freaking HW if you were a WHM. Then we went into SB just as bad, but since it was just WHM it was easy to just sweep the problem under the rug. The fact that SE let a job, with a job guage so useless you could click it off and not notice a thing, sit at the bottom for YEARS is absolutely ridiculous.

I don't see them fixing these healer issues anytime soon either, they have no idea what they're doing or going with them. I'm hoping for the best, but all I see is another situation where SCH and AST is buffed to kings and everyone stays quiet again for 2 years.

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You remind me that the first I had to do into this expansion, was drag back the lilies bar onto the screen.

Yea, I totally expect 5.05 to overbuff AST and WHM will be bottom of the heap again.

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Originally Posted by DawnSolaria

The only one with non interruptible aoe is emet's dungeon off the top of my head, why would you have to move for other ones before DR kicks in?

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Because of the delay between Holy going off and the Stun taking effect. The pull before the second boss of the Twinning is a good example of this. AoEs will go off before your third stun and I'm not really sure what's given you the idea that they don't.

I'll make a recording tonight as I think it's the only way you're going to see straight on this <3

If you're wondering why I'm making a point of this:

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Originally Posted by DawnSolaria

holy you can just stand absolutely still.

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It's because this is patently untrue.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Because of the delay between Holy going off and the Stun taking effect. The pull before the second boss of the Twinning is a good example of this. AoEs will go off before your third stun and I'm not really sure what's given you the idea that they don't.

I'll make a recording tonight as I think it's the only way you're going to see straight on this <3

If you're wondering why I'm making a point of this:



It's because this is patently untrue.

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It is true because I have done it and will keep doing it. Non overlapping aoe won't kill you in one hit so you can take one then just chain stun them, toss out an assize after the first holy because the second holy stun won't take effect as the mobs will be still be stunned. I have used more holy than cure ii in dungeon so don't come telling me what I did wasn't true

Again, I don’t have a problem with the foundations of what you are saying. Rather, my issue is the extent with which you are spinning it.

I’m not really sure what more holy than cure ii has to do with anything here though? Cure II’s mid pull outside if the first Akademia pull usually means something went pretty wrong ;)

WHM has always been considered boring and easy to play from the start. People are suddenly going to WHM now because the dps on the other healers are lower.

It was never about being boring, you just want to see high numbers.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

WHM has always been considered boring and easy to play from the start. People are suddenly going to WHM now because the dps on the other healers are lower.

It was never about being boring, you just want to see high numbers.

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WHM still feels the way it used to. Maybe a little better. But now SCH is boring and easy to play AND clunky, so why not go for WHM when it's smooth? To be clear, I never actually disliked WHM. It was just my least favourite of the three healers by a decent margin

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

WHM has always been considered boring and easy to play from the start. People are suddenly going to WHM now because the dps on the other healers are lower.

It was never about being boring, you just want to see high numbers.

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I'm sure there are some people playing white mage because of it's high dps. But generalizing this to everyone is pretty ignorant. And if it was just about wanting to see higher numbers, then where were all the stormblood white mage players? Even in its under-tuned state last expansion, it still had the highest dps potential out of the three healers.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

It was never about being boring, you just want to see high numbers.

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It’s nothing to do with how much more streamlined WHM is at the moment then? Nor how you can get good results without needing 20%+ more APM and/or decent CD management to do well?

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

It’s nothing to do with how much more streamlined WHM is at the moment then? Nor how you can get good results without needing 20%+ more APM and/or decent CD management to do well?

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Astrologian is clunky and boring and they took away abilities and the card system that made the class fun to play. You have the least heal options vs the other healers, shitty cds & potencies on the changed abilities and you are super busy clicking away at a dumbed down card system for marginal gains vs just nuking and that's if you are doing everything right. If you mess up, you lose rdps.

I'm considering trying WHM as well. I always had the impression it was the easier, more straight-forward healing spec, so I picked up AST to do something unique. It's still kind of unique, but man the card system requires so much GCD input for such boring, minimal gain. Might go for SCH instead, but they seem to be pretty straight forward now too, just focusing on preemptive healing.

Wow this blew up more than I thought it would. Loving the conversation in the thread.

Just to clarify, I’m not asking for WHM nerfs. I love everything about it right now, it has no issues. The point of my original post was to advocate for SCH and AST QoL changes, tweaks, and buffs to bring them up to par with WHM.

Yes, in the past WHM was behind. However, they gutted SCH and AST this expansion while keeping WHM relatively the same and arguably buffed with the new job gauge. The new job gauge fixed my main complaint about WHM in the last expansions which was their lack of instant cast heals which limited mobility. That has been fixed, and everything flows well and feels perfect.AST by comparison still has light speed for mobility and instant heals in a crutch but it is now being used to conserve mana and may not be up when you need it’s main function of mobility.

AST aoe heal potency and ability is very behind compared to WHM and even SCH. I do agree that WHM should be known for good strong heals, but the difference of how quickly a WHM can heal the party vs an Astrologian is astounding. 100 potency initial heal with aspected Helios compared to 200 on Medica 2. 100 potency on celestial opposition’s 2 minute CD with LESS regen than aspected Helios. Yes the regens stack but for an instant heal and such a long cooldown, id rather have a strong emergency heal comparable to afflatus rapture, assize, and indominability.

Noct Astro’s aspected benefic is too expensive, period. It’s niche is an instant cast heal and shield to mitigate damage and potentially save someone taking hits that you can follow up with a normal heal. WHM has a potential of 3 Solace’s, divine benison, benediction, and tetra to save someone. They earn a new lily every 30 seconds. All of the whm skills listed cost 0 mana.

Scholar has lustrate and gets 3 aetherflow every 60s, 0 mana cost and you actually gain mana every 60s.

Noct AST has essential dignity, potential max of 2, and gets a stack every 45s. To fill the void between essential dignities, aspected benefic is used which eats all of your mana (10% with each use). In the last expansions this discrepancy wasn’t as apparent as it is now with the new lily system and mana system change. Ideally you shouldn’t need to use Aspected benefic that much but in the situations where you are, it hurts.

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Originally Posted by Hatstand

WHM still feels the way it used to. Maybe a little better. But now SCH is boring and easy to play AND clunky, so why not go for WHM when it's smooth? To be clear, I never actually disliked WHM. It was just my least favourite of the three healers by a decent margin

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I slightly disagree. WHM, at least to me, actually feels quite a bit better than it did in Stormblood. The Afflatus spells are a good addition, and they add what I think was kinda missing before. It's still a relatively simple class, but it's well-packaged now. A slight improvement might be to make Afflatus spells oGCD, but that'd probably make the meta purely WHM/WHM without question if it happened.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

I slightly disagree. WHM, at least to me, actually feels quite a bit better than it did in Stormblood. The Afflatus spells are a good addition, and they add what I think was kinda missing before. It's still a relatively simple class, but it's well-packaged now. A slight improvement might be to make Afflatus spells oGCD, but that'd probably make the meta purely WHM/WHM without question if it happened.

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This minus the ogcd part. WHM’s main issues and clunkiness during SB came from the lilies being pointless, the job lacking weaving opportunities, the job lacking a dps ogcd to fill its weaving opportunities, some mobility issues (but that could’ve been by design). Afflatus fixes 3/4. Making the job way more fun. Next to that sch at least doesn’t have much in the way of fun, on top of being buggy, clunky, and boring.

Making afflatus ogcd would defeat the purpose without another weaving opportunity skill and would be way too OP with it anyways. The potency of misery makes perfect sense in the context of ogcd dps cost on other healers. Can’t go changing it like that.

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Originally Posted by JonFarron

Wow this blew up more than I thought it would. Loving the conversation in the thread.

Just to clarify, I’m not asking for WHM nerfs. I love everything about it right now, it has no issues. The point of my original post was to advocate for SCH and AST QoL changes, tweaks, and buffs to bring them up to par with WHM.

Yes, in the past WHM was behind. However, they gutted SCH and AST this expansion while keeping WHM relatively the same and arguably buffed with the new job gauge. The new job gauge fixed my main complaint about WHM in the last expansions which was their lack of instant cast heals which limited mobility. That has been fixed, and everything flows well and feels perfect.AST by comparison still has light speed for mobility and instant heals in a crutch but it is now being used to conserve mana and may not be up when you need it’s main function of mobility.

AST aoe heal potency and ability is very behind compared to WHM and even SCH. I do agree that WHM should be known for good strong heals, but the difference of how quickly a WHM can heal the party vs an Astrologian is astounding. 100 potency initial heal with aspected Helios compared to 200 on Medica 2. 100 potency on celestial opposition’s 2 minute CD with LESS regen than aspected Helios. Yes the regens stack but for an instant heal and such a long cooldown, id rather have a strong emergency heal comparable to afflatus rapture, assize, and indominability.

Noct Astro’s aspected benefic is too expensive, period. It’s niche is an instant cast heal and shield to mitigate damage and potentially save someone taking hits that you can follow up with a normal heal. WHM has a potential of 3 Solace’s, divine benison, benediction, and tetra to save someone. They earn a new lily every 30 seconds. All of the whm skills listed cost 0 mana.

Scholar has lustrate and gets 3 aetherflow every 60s, 0 mana cost and you actually gain mana every 60s.

Noct AST has essential dignity, potential max of 2, and gets a stack every 45s. To fill the void between essential dignities, aspected benefic is used which eats all of your mana (10% with each use). In the last expansions this discrepancy wasn’t as apparent as it is now with the new lily system and mana system change. Ideally you shouldn’t need to use Aspected benefic that much but in the situations where you are, it hurts.

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Lets just say Astro is a complete train wreck.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Lets just say Astro is a complete train wreck.

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So, I've been leveling AST and WHM lately....and, yeah, pretty much.

It's to the point that if I'm going to go healer for a leveling roulette (i.e. where I'll be the only healer)...I will try to avoid AST if at all possible.

WHM, OTOH, feels fantastic, to the point that, when healing, I'm actually even shelving my main in favor of it outside of my static.

WHM is the most popular because how its kit feels to play.
WHM is the only healer whose kit builds up to something. It's the satisfaction of the blood lilly that makes it so popular.

You use the lillies, you weave damage and healing and then are rewarded with a big burst of lights and numbers.

SCH's kit has no build up, just a bunch of CDs at your disposal to burn at your whim.

AST's kit has a sense of build up with the seals, but it's awkwardly frustrating to build and most of the time you are delayed by the long CD on divination which forces you to burn cards on Minor Arcana which doesn't feel good at all.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

WHM is the most popular because how its kit feels to play.
WHM is the only healer whose kit builds up to something. It's the satisfaction of the blood lilly that makes it so popular.

You use the lillies, you weave damage and healing and then are rewarded with a big burst of lights and numbers.

SCH's kit has no build up, just a bunch of CDs at your disposal to burn at your whim.

AST's kit has a sense of build up with the seals, but it's awkwardly frustrating to build and most of the time you are delayed by the long CD on divination which forces you to burn cards on Minor Arcana which doesn't feel good at all.

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Not to mention that Misery consistently deals a lot of damage (you can very easily get 40k+ without crits, which is very satisfying to look at as a healer), while Divination takes twice as long, is still subject to RNG, and gives a weak buff nobody will notice, not even yourself.

AST's buildup is rewarded by the faint feeling that you might have done something, while WHM's is rewarded with a massive nuke.


Choose your fighter.

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Originally Posted by Lodi

Not to mention that Misery consistently deals a lot of damage (you can very easily get 40k+ without crits, which is very satisfying to look at as a healer), while Divination takes twice as long, is still subject to RNG, and gives a weak buff nobody will notice, not even yourself.

AST's buildup is rewarded by the faint feeling that you might have done something, while WHM's is rewarded with a massive nuke.


Choose your fighter.

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To make divination more satisfying I would:
-Shorten CD. 100s at worst. With a shorter CD there is also less room for mistakes with the seals. Messing up seal order is much more punishing now.
-Buff its damage boost above Cards and Minor Arcana. Neither should give a stronger buff than Divination. It's your moment to shine and it should feel much more impactfull.
-Expand its range. Nothing feels worse than using it and seeing the Range dpss without their buffs.
-Have the buff cause some sort of visual effect on the party members, have their characters glow with power for the duration. Something non intrusive but noticeable as to let them know the AST is empowering them.

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Originally Posted by Taika

This is true from my experience as well, but I don't think it's only because WHM is so powerful right now, but more because WHM is actually fun to play in Shadowbringers, unlike SCH and AST. AST is obviously undertuned, but what SCH needs the most is more engaging gameplay instead of just ridiculously strong OCD heals and Broil spam.

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This all the way.

They barely changed White Mage whereas they massively changed Astrologian and Scholar into something people don't like, so people pick White Mage. White Mage is fine, its Scholar and Astrologian that need major changes. (And imo AST didn't need changes at all)

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Originally Posted by LukaRoselia

This all the way.

They barely changed White Mage whereas they massively changed Astrologian and Scholar into something people don't like, so people pick White Mage. White Mage is fine, its Scholar and Astrologian that need major changes. (And imo AST didn't need changes at all)

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What I don't get is.
WHM was called "boring" for about 4 years now, if not longer. They never really changed anything about how the job feels, never really fixed its main problems, it took them two years to make Lilies useful but the job still feels clunky to me in quite a few situations. So how the frick is WHM suddenly fun if it was "braindead boring" for most before???

Sorry, but in statements like this, from how people talked before, all I see is a lot of bias and making your own job worse than it is... there isn't even that much difference between WHM and SCH anymore (not saying that's good even if I like the new SCH, just how it is), so if WHM feels good to play, apparently even to SCH mains, why not SCH itself? "They changed it, now it sucks" even if the way it got changed makes it similar to another job that's suddenly considered fun? Can you people please make up your minds already, especially on the SCH and WHM issue?

AST is currently the only healer that really needs changes. It just makes me sad that the changes they will get will, with 90% certainty, bench WHM again...

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

What I don't get is.
WHM was called "boring" for about 4 years now, if not longer. They never really changed anything about how the job feels, never really fixed its main problems, it took them two years to make Lilies useful but the job still feels clunky to me in quite a few situations. So how the frick is WHM suddenly fun if it was "braindead boring" for most before???

Sorry, but in statements like this, from how people talked before, all I see is a lot of bias and making your own job worse than it is... there isn't even that much difference between WHM and SCH anymore (not saying that's good even if I like the new SCH, just how it is), so if WHM feels good to play, apparently even to SCH mains, why not SCH itself? "They changed it, now it sucks" even if the way it got changed makes it similar to another job that's suddenly considered fun? Can you people please make up your minds already, especially on the SCH and WHM issue?

AST is currently the only healer that really needs changes. It just makes me sad that the changes they will get will, with 90% certainty, bench WHM again...

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The thing is, and I know this might sound bad, I didn't mind that WHM was boring because I had an alternative that I liked. I assumed that the people who played WHM liked it. Maybe the style appealed more to them than to me. WHM isn't nearly as fun now as SCH used to be, in my opinion. It's just more fun than SCH became in 5.0.

That said, now that I'm aware WHMs want changes, I'm happy to support them. Although the WHMs who seem to resent us for wanting our job to be fun makes it a lot harder to root for them. I wouldn't be surprised if several other players feel much the same.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

What I don't get is.
WHM was called "boring" for about 4 years now, if not longer. They never really changed anything about how the job feels, never really fixed its main problems, it took them two years to make Lilies useful but the job still feels clunky to me in quite a few situations. So how the frick is WHM suddenly fun if it was "braindead boring" for most before???

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Because the other two got boring-er, so we go to the least boring job.


I started levelling SCH before 5.0, and I was having a blast because I had to press more buttons than just 1 and 2... and then Shadowbringers came and told me I am not allowed to have fun anymore.

As for AST, it became so weak the only thing that could prove our existence was whether or not our team is alive; AST damage and buffs are now so low they're almost noexistent.

WHM? We kept our self buff, and traded our aoe dot for an aoe nuke later on, and on top of that we finally got a real use for our lilies!


My love for WHM might be Stockholm syndrome at this point, but the other healers are simply not appealing to me in their current state.