Voke now puts you at the top plus like 300k emnity. Gaining and holding threat is trivial now as a tank. If you're letting dps tank bosses, the issue is literally only with your own pride. It literally does not matter.
You shouldnt be doing any countdowns in dungeons, its a waste of everyones time and youre just letting your teammates buffs tick down unnecessarily.
While the DRG should not have been pulling, nothing they did actively harmed the run. Letting them die and then being snarky about it slows everything down to a crawl.
Pulling the bosses In dungeons as DPS a thing now?
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07-12-2019, 11:30 PMMavrias
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07-13-2019, 01:18 PMIntellionQuote:
Originally Posted by Lilyth
As someone who mained a BRD for four years before recently switching mains to DRK, and actually using those four years to properly learn DPS gameplay and even clearing a lot of high-end content, all I can say is this.
This kind of thinking is DPS Arrogance in its finest.
Our job as a DPS is to support the tank and healer by burning down enemies ASAP.
While I agree that DPS pulling bosses is only a minor inconvenience, when DPS start behaving arrogantly and start pulling additional mobs that the tanks/healers don't want to deal with at the moment, then yeah, the tank/healer deserves to let that DPS die.
Why? Because that DPS is being full of himself/herself by thinking that they lead the party, when that job belongs to the tank. In other words, DPS that try to steal the tank's job ARE NOT playing their role properly... and in my opinion, deserves to be kicked more than an angry tank that just wants to do their job in peace.
So for any DPS with that kind of arrogance, heed my words as a fellow DPS:
Do your dang job and learn your place. In the end, tanks and healers have insta-queues; you do NOT. -
07-13-2019, 01:36 PMAwhaAs a mostly tank player I have an issue with this mindset, and I really do think SE needs to make it so people can switch jobs mid dungeon if someone leaves or is removed. It is a team effort, and sometimes being on a team means doing things that you may not be comfortable with be that small, large, slow or quick pulls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Intellion
As a player we can choose to leave, adapt or test the waters and see if the party agrees with our actions. Here is the issue tank and to a degree healers have a certain group bias towards their actions due to the queue times of the DPS and I understand this but I think dps should call entitled healer and tanks out by using the vote kick feature more. DPS are no less important and play an equal part in how smooth a run goes. I do hope in the future more dps come together being as they have the vote advantage and use it, sure your runs may take longer but by no means should dps sit back and let entitled roles treat them as children and say they have no say in what a group does. -
07-13-2019, 04:09 PMalilacia
I'm very much a believer of "you pull it, you tank it."
I might be pulling less now while I'm learning the dungeons again and getting my gear in order, but I always keep a fast pace and only use ready check on the run into each boss. By the time I've reached the entrance everyone has said yes and I can keep running in. You want to run in before me and attack, I will step back out and instruct the healer to do the same. I will not encourage bad behaviour or tolerate it because I can get aggro back easily enough. Also: our queues are instant; dps are not. -
07-13-2019, 04:32 PMConando
I don’t see much of an issue if it’s for dungeon bosses. If they’re running ahead before a fight is done and facepulling more trash? You go right ahead and let them tank.
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07-13-2019, 04:58 PMInsertcoinsAnd if that tank u turns and you die will make you lose the buff and damage too. Just saying...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivxkobe
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07-13-2019, 05:17 PMLegion88
I don't see any reason a tank has to wait before he pulls a boss in a dungeon.
You have plenty of CDs to use for "tank busters" and "high hitters".
Also most bosses have a so low requirement of healing it is mostly a MP reg phase for healers between mob pulls when they can burst with their AoE spells.
The only time i think a tank should stop moving along the dungeon is if he has gathered all mobs he wanted to pull and wants the enemies burned down* or the party reaches a mandatory gate.
Every time a tank stops moving along the dungeon it is a place of slaugther or he is watching a cutscene, if not, something went wrong.
*(Pullsize depends on a mixed comfortability of tank an healer) -
07-13-2019, 06:44 PMSamuraijake
The tanks have the right to the pace of pulls due to the fact that tanks have to keep track of defensive cds which determine what or how much they can pull...this shouldnt be news to anyone and certainly not dps. DPS dont have to interact with mobs outside of spamming your rotations (god forbid most dps throw a stun out there just to help out) ... so its selfish when they decide to pull anything just so they dont lose their precious little dps buffs. Boss positioning is also a thing which is a duty held by a tank... so a dps pulling a boss in some odd direction instantly disrupts that.Its also rude if you've ever played any mmo ever i.e. huntards that aggro stuff we dont need.
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07-13-2019, 08:02 PMMiminming
I have seen tank who stop and bow and ready check and count down in every boss, no just no...
If you didnt ask him to stop pulling when the first time he did you are the wrong ine here
Tank is just the same as other role they are not leader nor superior
Saying hou pull you tank is the same as saying you pull you kill -
07-13-2019, 09:16 PMMavriasNewsflash: no role is the "party leader." Anyone who cant respect their team or their team's wishes deserves to be kicked regardless of role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Intellion
A tank who wants to do big pulls when the other 3 members want to do small pulls is going to get kicked, and vice versa wanting to do small pulls vs big pulls. If your group wants to pull bosses immediately nd you insist on wasting their time with pull countdowns in a dungeon, theyre going to ignore you at best and kick you at worst as OP learned.
As a tank main, its extremely disrespecrful to act like ypure god's gift to the party and refuse to try and listen to your partymates. -
07-13-2019, 09:52 PMLannybaby
Some DPS think tanks need to learn their place. Well, we feel the same way towards them. Our job is to pull foes, hold them, use some CDs if needed, and not stand in the stupid. Their job is to kill said foes, and not stand in the stupid. If they pull off of a tank, that's the tank's fault. Many DPS will not directly attack what the tank is specifically attacking, especially in large packs. We understand this. Some of us don't like it when they do that, but we should easily be able to hold a large pack without someone pulling off of us. But if they pull a pack way ahead of the group that the tank hasn't touched yet, that's a different story.
They have long queues. They want to clear faster, this I get. But pissing off the tank, and sometimes the healer, is not the best way to do that. Everyone has their role in a party setting. Follow that and the experience is smooth. -
07-13-2019, 10:38 PMNedkel
If anyone ever worked as a team leader in the real life job, then he or she could 100% relate to tanking job in this game, its literally the same.
You cant blame or call other underperforming, you have to adjust your run (production line) to the people you work with. You cant stress others, you have to listen to complaints, you cant force down on someone to do x thing better than he could.
You need to have "know how" and organise everything. If something goes bad there is you to blame.
If you cant do these things if you have no nerves then you are not made for the job. -
07-14-2019, 12:38 AMAwhaLet us be real, outside of a few situation in dungeons especially boss fight for dungeons if the healer and or dps are on point we probably could get away without having to pop a single defensive cool down, and even maybe for larger pulls--maybe not so much wall-to-wall-- if the tank is able to hold aggro which is nearly impossible to not do at this point, healer and dps play a more active role in how the run will go. In dungeon content we are not as important as people try to make us seem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuraijake
While I am not trying to say the tank is useless, I still stand by the mindset that every role plays a role into how smooth a run goes, but personally as tank I value the DPS and heals far more so above myself. Especially in ShB when it comes to large pulls DPS is the factor I value most, not to say the healer is not important, but even with a great healer if the dps is not on point lager pulls feel as if they are a drain on my very soul. -
07-14-2019, 01:32 AMMrSmiley
Part of the reason I stopped tanking was the utter disrespect tanks get from the other roles often, its just baffling.
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07-14-2019, 02:00 AMKaitoo
tanks in ffxiv have more fragile egos then tanks in the most other mmos i played, and thats saying something
"wowie that dude pulled that dungeon boss that is gonna fall over, better turn off tank stance instead saying something (if it really bothers you) and then upload the conversation to the forums"
you showed him my man, constructive and efficient -
07-14-2019, 02:36 AMMinnelTbh any role, perhaps except healer, is mind numbing during mob pulls. Its just aoe spam city untill everything is dead. I mean yeah dps do press some other buttons but really, its just aoe spam... just like how tank is aoe spamming and pressing few additional buttons now and then. While I do understand that you might have been offended by the other tank saying that DPS gets an easy ride but I don't think that warrants insulting all of the tanks and calling our role 'brain-dead' during mob pulls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilyth
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07-14-2019, 02:56 AMLannybabyI think it has less to do with ego than just simple respect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitoo
When I roll a DPS job, usually a dragoon or red mage, I adhere to a certain party etiquette. My job is to kill whatever the tank pulls, and to not stand in the stupid. I also constantly check the enmity meters. If I'm close to pulling a foe away from the tank, I switch to another target, no complaints. If there's only one target, then git-gud tank. While my job is to kill a target, another of my responsibilities is to ensure I'm not the one taking a swing to the face. I can definitely take the hit, even in non-savage content, but that's a little more healing the healer has to do instead of chucking another broil/malefic/stone at the baddies. The healer's job is to make sure, with reason, that the party doesn't die. Barring fools standing in the stupid, his/her primary task is to keep us standing. However, throwing out an attacking skill is all the more helpful if damage-intake is within controllable levels.
A damage-dealer's job is to kill things, not face-pulling a pack of things the tank isn't currently dealing with. And if they do, it would be nice to voice it out ahead of time. The tank knows how much the tank can handle. I can see their gear, but I don't know their ping; it could be less than favorable for all I know. The tank could be running on a potato and I wouldn't be the wiser. Why would I make their job harder? That makes no sense. Why they queued into a dungeon with med-high ping is anyone's guess, but I'm not about to make their job harder if I can help it. If the tank is voted out for whatever the reason, that's more waiting I have to do until we get a replacement. Unless the tank is truly terrible, and I mean going through the whole encounter with a vulnerability stack, then I'll let them do their job without interference. -
07-14-2019, 03:36 AMShurrikhanEasy fix:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lannybaby
- Play multiple roles.
- Optimize for clear speed, not just your own convenience or ego.
- Voila, you now see the same about these concerns.
But one of the first things you'd realize running daily roulettes as a tank after having briefly played more than a single DPS or Healer is that, where the DPS are decent, they generally tend to be more on the right side of these arguments than any tank-only players.
And, if you're actively slowing a run just to slake an arbitrary need for respect paid, that is ego. -
07-14-2019, 03:39 AMLannybaby- Already done. But everyone has their mains, and mains are usually tied to one role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
- So don't play for fun, just focus on clearing. Got it... no thanks.
- Still don't see it. -
07-14-2019, 05:50 AMAwhaAll people are saying is if three others want a tank to speed up they should speed up, or leave. For some reason tank and to a degree healer feel they get the final say in what a group does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lannybaby
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07-14-2019, 05:59 AMTempest222
I don’t play tank, so I don’t think I can have a fragile tank ego or anything, but imo it’s rude to pull for the tank regardless of how easy it is for the tank to take Aggro back. I don’t care if your timers are ticking down and you think the dungeon will take .324 seconds longer to complete because your buff wore off because the tank didn’t pull fast enough, if you aren’t the tank then your job is not to pull, end of story.
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07-14-2019, 06:10 AMAwhaI mean it really is not the end of the story since tank mains here say otherwise so clearly there are degrees to the situation and it is not as simple as tank sets the pace so deal with it. As a dps you do not have to blindly follow what a tank does. You are just as important as the tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest222
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07-14-2019, 06:10 AMLannybabyWell, tanks can't read these people's minds. 99% of the time, they say nothing and just face-pull then blame me for not being fast enough. Are tanks just the beast of burden people can jerk around?Quote:
Originally Posted by Awha
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07-14-2019, 06:24 AMAwhaTo be fair tanks in this game jerk around the other roles with their you pull you tank it mindset, willing to risk a wipe to simply prove a point. Though sure as a tank would be nice if people spoke up, but I am sure we can infer what a group wants by their actions. Well this group keeps running on ahead then maybe I am going to slow. At that point either adapt and apologize for going slow or I leave. I tend to miss readQuote:
Originally Posted by Lannybaby
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07-14-2019, 06:55 AMAtreides
If a DPS pulls just suck it up and do your job, whether you like it or not, it is you griefing your group if you let the DPS handle the mob instead of just tanking it which takes no efford whatsoever.
Some people just need to stop being entitled, you are not better than them. -
07-14-2019, 07:09 AMdragoeleteum no theres multiple points of veiw on this. for the dps yeah the y might feel like they were griefed. for the healer they prolly feel its a pain in the butt. as for the tank they just might not feel confidant on tanking more mobs than they are(if there a new player, undergeared, or maybe there ping is bad). or in boss pulls maybe something ended up distracting them like maybe there family suddenly called on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atreides
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07-14-2019, 07:26 AMLannybabyThe ego behind this comment is baffling...Quote:
Originally Posted by Atreides
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07-14-2019, 07:41 AMLyth
A lot of this reflects a shift in the mindset of MMOs.
Historically, tanking was your most valued role. You had one MT for your 40 person group, and they had to be your most reliable and most geared player. If you failed the mitigation check, you failed the fight.
Tanking is also the most interconnected role in the trinity. Because what you do impacts everyone in the group, your success depends on how you interact with and read/meet the needs of your teammates. It requires a decent amount of social intelligence.
Modern MMOs have realised two things: first, that the average player who pays your sub plays dps, and second, players paradoxically often don't have time for social interactions and prefer to treat this like a massively multiplayer single player game. DPS is the best role to do this with. LFG and jump into a group of 7 faceless players, maximise your dps output, and shout and scream at anyone who dares to invade your single player game filled with single player expectations. Who needs a community?
That's why we've seen a switch. Gear goes to dps first. New jobs? We don't have time to make a new healer, we need more dps. There are three different dps "roles", in contrast to one tank group and one healer group. That's also why it's now relatively rare to see an actual "tanking check" or "healing check", simply because four out of the eight players have neither the patience nor the tolerance to wait around with progression through that. And dps numbers are now very deliberately inflated so that a skilled tank or healer generally isn't going to accidentally embarrass an under-performing dps player.
At the end of the day, though, you can't change the fact that MMO trinities intrinsically have more responsibility and teamwork built into tanking and healing. So the next time you find yourself on a dps job preening over your artificially inflated damage numbers, find yourself backseat tanking, or find yourself complaining about the lack of adequate healing as you deliberately fail mechanics to get off more GCDs to compensate for otherwise terrible uptime, remember this: your tank and your healer knows full well that they can kill you at any time, and they're probably fantasising about it as we speak.
I mean, we love you, you single-handedly carry the team, and you're entitled to first pick on all the weapon drops. -
07-14-2019, 10:42 AMIntellionQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
My thoughts, exactly. You worded it much better than I could.
For all the cocky DPS out there who still are baffled why tanks and healers have more power over the party than they, look no further.
It's because by nature, tanks and healers have a lot more responsibility than DPS roles, and making a mistake as any of those two classes are much more damning than messing up as a DPS.
Tanks have to protect the party by properly managing their pulls or positioning. If they bite off more than they can chew, the party is overwhelmed and dies.
Healers have to keep the party alive and fix everyone's mistakes. Just like the tanks, if they are pushed beyond their limits, the party dies.
The DPS... just have to kill stuff. If they are overwhelmed... oh wait, they don't have to worry about that as long as the tanks protect them. If they mess up... the healer covers them.
While they are still a needed role in the party, by nature, they do not have as much influence nor responsibility as tanks and healers.
Therefore, a class that does not have to bear such burdens simply has no right to act like THEY dictate the flow of a dungeon run. This is why tanks and healers have always had the final say in how a party is run, because it is THEY who have to keep the party alive. To think otherwise would be sheer arrogance, and this is coming from a former career DPS. As a DPS, if you deliberately overwhelm your tanks and your healers for your own selfish reasons, either by pulling more mobs that you have no business pulling, or by going "MUH DEEPS!" and failing mechanics over and over to the point where the healer has to divert their healing from the tank to you, then YOU are a bad DPS, and if the tanks/healers snap at you, you deserve it 100%.
Also, due to the queue times, if a tank and healer leaves or is kicked by the DPS, they can just requeue and immediately find a new group. If a DPS quits or is kicked, they have to wait for a long time again. Meaning, DPS are easily replacable; tanks and healers are not. So by all means, go ahead and piss off your tank and healer with your selfishness; in the end, it is THEY who will always win since by nature, you as a DPS is disposable and easily replacable. Like it or not, that's just how the class trinity works.
Not to mention, as others have said, tanks and healers have the ability to end a DPS' life at will. It's just most of them choose not to do so out of restraint.
But all it takes is one Shirk or one deliberately unused healing spell/revive, and a DPS' temper tantrum immediately goes away, and trust me, I know this from experience.
And those are exactly why the DPS should learn their place.
They are not useless. They are needed in a party,
But no matter how much they deny it, they do not have the same level of importance nor influence nor responsiblity as a tank or healer. -
07-14-2019, 10:56 AMSaberMaxwell
All of this makes me glad I have a static, I don't have to deal with any role's entitlement. Dungeons are easy enough that no role is important (defined here as "Can't complete the dungeon without), and as you go up in the totem pole all roles become vital. End of the day, the group is a team: in any content where one role isn't vital, it's probable that no roles are vital. The reverse is true: try playing like DPS don't matter in Ultimate. Good luck surviving Morn Afah without the DPS' help mitigating for instance.
Oh Van Arn, where art thou? -
07-14-2019, 11:11 AMVulcann
first time a DPS pull something that i didn't i will grab agro off them
second time - you pull it you tank it and you get no heals (since i usually run with my wife who is a healer)
feel free to leave and rejoin that 10+ minute DPS queue. -
07-14-2019, 11:39 AMKabooa
The "Tanks are better" rhetoric would hold more weight if tanks didn't just turn into discount melee over the expansions.
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07-14-2019, 11:50 AMAwha
Team based game and people are throwing around statements like a healer or tank can kill a dps so best not get on their bad side. Either way I am also glad I have friends to play with and I will also always be willing to replace a tank that my friends have removed because they feel they know what is best. Sometimes tanks and healer mistake their own limitations as they groups and mistakenly use that as a reason to hold the group back, which no matter how you try and spin it I will always view as wrong.
Granted I am an odd ball that would leave groups on my own accord if I felt I was holding the group back due to lack of gears experience, and or skill. -
07-14-2019, 11:53 AMLannybabyAs the expansion rolls further in, the DPS waiting time slips more and more into what it used to be in the prior expansion - around 25+ minutes depending on the time of day. Whenever I queue as DPS, the one thing I never do, above all else, is to annoy the tank or healer. I'd rather not be kicked for selfish reasons and have to suffer that abominable waiting period again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcann
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07-14-2019, 12:16 PMConandoThen why don’t you tank then? If it bothers you so much, tank so you can set the pace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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07-14-2019, 12:19 PMT-Owl
Healers casting regen on me before the pull is actually by far more obnoxious than a dps pulling.
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07-14-2019, 12:24 PMInuk9This, It is like the dps is saying "you are too slow and bad for this, lemme show you how its done"Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest222
If you want to speedrun ask your friends to go with you or play tank yourself. profit. -
07-14-2019, 12:32 PMDoozerThis. Sometimes things get pulled by accident, but repeatedly doing it shows me that you're impatient.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcann
This is what you do if the tank isn't going as fast as you want. Be a fast tank, or fall in line. If the tank and healer are in cahoots like some of us are, you don't get to claim that the tank not going fast enough for you is ruining it for everyone who clearly wants to go faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Conando
Also this. Pulling enemies because you're going to lose a buff doesn't actually make it go significantly faster. Like ooh wow, it took 14:50 instead of 15 minutes because you kept Blood of the Dragon up, must be worth irritating the tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest222
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07-14-2019, 01:08 PMKabooaI do. That's how I know it's not nearly as important or hard as people make it sound.Quote:
Originally Posted by Conando
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07-14-2019, 01:14 PMConando
Then why does the performance of other tanks bother you? You should theoretically be rarely meeting them if you tank as much as you claim you do.