The Problem with Paladin

A problem I find also is casting heals get interrupted in crowd control situations with mobs hitting you...blocks atleast should negate this

I thought this same problem with PLD while tanking final fights for mnk drg and brd. I was having a hard time controlling the situations so I changed back to gladiator and tanked them all just fine, I felt like GLA could hold hate as well but i also had access to invigorate, second wind, sanguine rite, and featherfoot which made it so much easier to recover, kite, and hold hate in general.

I thought to myself this is just because PLD is new and I dont have enough practice with it, but I see Im not the only one who felt PLD was lackluster.

I feel squisher on my Paladin than I do on my Warrior. In fact, I tanked the entirety of Darkhold on my Warrior without breaking a sweat. Fastest speed run I've done to date, too. Didn't even so much as drop into yellow tanking Batraal.

Since then, and even before then, I've started tanking everything on Warrior. Having played Paladin for the first few days after unlocking on day 1 of the patch, I honestly enjoy Warrior more. I feel safer tanking as a Warrior than I do as a Paladin. My groups have been far more successful with me on Warrior, too.

I know some may disagree, but I feel like this is the simplest way to put how PLD has been introduced. I think you lose more going from Gladiator to Paladin than you gain going from Gladiator to Paladin. I just don't hear the same concerns from other classes/jobs. WHM is obviously optimized for party play. BRD is obviously optimized for party play. WAR, DRG, MNK, and BLM all seem to have huge advantages over their class counterparts in most party situations (BLM not having access to Cure is one negative). It seems the more PLDs I talk to the more I find that feel like GLA is just as good if not better in both solo and party play. To me, that's the problem with Paladin as the title of the thread suggests. Paladin has some very nice skills and brings a few new wrinkles to tanking, but I can't see how Paladin is any more optimized for party play than Gladiator is.

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Originally Posted by Phobos

While your points are valid, requirements have simply shifted from:

Need: Tank, Healer, BLMs (or whatever you want)

to:

Need: Paladin, Healer, Bard, Warrior, etc.

The requirements are more spread out, but you still have specific classes/jobs you're looking to fill.

Also GLA > PLD is more my point, as the first reply mentions

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Well i felt that PLD needs more AoE WS not too much maybe one WS and phalanx being AoE, but i feel pld is better holding hate and dmg than gld, u have a lot of stuff to resist dmg at ur disposal, the thing is to have more jobs involved and not the boring Ifrit setup, tank+conjurer x2 + Thm's

I havn't read every post in this thread (9 pages Ef that) but I read the first page of posts, and while your points are valid, I do not belive they would "fix" paladin.

Lets look at what was promised to us when paladin was supposed to come out.

correct me if I'm wrong but I'm positive Yoshi said that PLD would get less HP, which we did get, and a major boost in Defense. Lets examine this so called "boost" in defense. By switching to PLD you lose 10 str and gain 10 vit. Now this part might just be broken, I'm not sure, but defense does not go up at all. 10 vit? srsly? pathetic.

Now lets examine the PLD AF.

Gallant Surcoat - decent piece really, MP +40, MND +12, Healing magic potency +3, Enmity +3, Enhances Cover.

Now lets examine these stats and what they do for a PLD. Its rather obvious that this piece is intended to help the PLD heal himself, right? Right. Now...lets put this to good use.
*starts casting* ... *is the tank so got hit and interupted* ... *starts casting* ... *is the tank so got hit and interupted*

Wow that is so helpful! >.>;

Now lets examine something else, previous gear. I use Sentinel Cuirass.

Sentinel's Cuirass - HP+50, Vit +4, Mind +4, Block Rate +5. This piece of gear has the potential for materia, I have a +20 vit materia on it. so add +20 VIT.

Now lets examine this piece of gear. It has HP to help the tank live longer, it has vit on it to help the tank take less damage and live longer, it has mind incase the tank needs to heal himself and actually can get a spell off. It has block rate + so the tank has a higher chance to block incoming attacks thus taking less damage so he can live longer.

Now I don't know about you, but to me its rather clear which of these 2 is better. Sentinel's all the way.

All the other PLD af is the same way just about. Nothing super special about it. In fact it seems rather backwards to me.


Now lets look at the other AF for other jobs.

DRG --- I love drg, it is amazing, the AF is amazingly good. Lets examine it shall we.

Drachen Gauntlets - HP -30 (not a bad thing, not good, but not bad either) Attack Power +40 (holy s**t balls wtf?!) -10 enmity (again holy s**t balls wtf?!)

Wit the exception of the hp- this is amazing! It gives -enmity to take less hate and dps longer/harder (yes yes go ahead and laugh) and +40 attack power!

Now...lets look at BLM.

Wizard's Gloves - HP --30 (again not good, but not bad either) Magic Acc +5 Magic Crit Potency +65 (+65!?! *drool*) Enmity -10 (see previous statement about crit potency lol)

I could go on and on and on about this. But I'm not going to.

Suffice to say PLD has alot of problems, MP management is just one of them.

Sad panda face for PLD

Crying tears of joy for DRG

How do I keep this topic on the hot topic pages? I couldn't agree more. PLD just doesn't add up to warrior like it should. :(

yes i agree, the AF is sub par, has 0 HP on it, and is all around an average job compared to the other jobs, needs an overhaul next patch.

Biggest gripe is the lackluster AF compared to others tho, get 2 or 3 vit here and there, like that does anything, the same def as cobalt, 10-20 mp or so, when spells cost 150+, this doesn't make a difference, the enmity is nice but thats all it really has going for it besides looks.. my 2 cents.

I would like to see Outmaneuver give better MP returns and I also like the idea of Spirit's Within returning MP instead of doing extra damage. This is because I actually have a good use for MP on PLD, unlike on GLA. I would tank Ifrit and barely touch my MP on GLA because of Second Wind and the weakness of Cure.

It seems clear to me that Holy Succor is to be cast primarily on other party members and I welcome it for that. If a party member has hate and I don't have Flash or Provoke up, now I have a good tool to help them where GLA has nothing. Two tools if you add in Cover. I haven't checked to see what kind of regen Divine Veil gives, but it seems designed so melee can stand near the tank where AOEs happen and get some relief (ex. MNK/PUG against Ifrit's Sear).

So far since the patch I have done mostly AF fights and a few tries against the Princess in Cutter's Cry. For these short fights you don't have MP issues. I can see in a long fight like Ifrit that some kind of MP recovery tool even on a 15 min timer would be welcome. Something like PLD had in FFXI where PLD could swap TP for MP.

I have not done a kited fight on PLD yet, but I can see GLA being superior there.

I'd like to see Paldins getting MP from Covering other People. The more damage you take for them the more MP you get in return. Sure it won't work without a Party and without others being hit but I think it would be fun ;D

I'm so very glad to have seen a couple people mention the gear instead of the abilities. The Pld JSE stuff is awful! same defense as cobalt, yes except the cuirass, but... that's only NQ COBALT. If you have a +1 set, which is now fairly easy to do, even single melded it is going to destroy Pld JSE in terms of damage mitigation. The Cobalt also offering a decent HP boost just from the boots with one HP materia in them alone. The new accessories do help Pld, what with the cure potency and mag crit jewelry, but that means you have to sacrifice some HP or +30 (say for tanking sake) Vit on your rings.... I like Pld, I can manage mp well enough i suppose... If it had a bit more damage mitigation then MP management would be much more, well.... managable. I do NOT think MP should be easy to keep up and i like needing support jobs to tank well with Pld, but for all my love of Pld, Gladiator is still the better tank. That said.... Warrior > Gladiator now.

I wish a Dev would get in here and give us some feedback as to WHY pld is so horrible. But i know it will never happen.

JOBS were meant for PARTY PLAY...With a BARD in party = No MP issues.

That is all.

Anyone like PLD? CAUSE I REALLY DO AND I DON'T THINK ANYTHING NEEDS TO CHANGE ABOUT THE JOB!

By the way...Battle classes/jobs are still in the tweak...

Only Mage classes have been confirmed to be in their semi-final state as they will be in 2.0. By the way I love how mage classes play now. I love how moving causes spell cancellation. It's so much FUN NOW!

...and that is all I had to say.

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Originally Posted by Agoven

JOBS were meant for PARTY PLAY...With a BARD in party = No MP issues.

That is all.

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Replace the PLD with a GLA, and you wont need a Bard for MP refresh.

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Originally Posted by Agoven

Anyone like PLD? CAUSE I REALLY DO AND I DON'T THINK ANYTHING NEEDS TO CHANGE ABOUT THE JOB!

By the way...Battle classes/jobs are still in the tweak...

Only Mage classes have been confirmed to be in their semi-final state as they will be in 2.0. By the way I love how mage classes play now. I love how moving causes spell cancellation. It's so much FUN NOW!

...and that is all I had to say.

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You didn't read much of the thread have you? You should try it out next time before you post a tantrum.

The majority of this discussion is about anything a PLD can do a GLA can do better. There is not much a PLD can do to outshine a GLA or a WAR when it comes to tanking which it is its role.

Warrior seem like a better tank then PLD -.- which is pretty sad when PLD should out do the warrior in tanking. Pretty much warrior out does PLD and does awesome DMG.

Hmm... This is interesting indeed, I think actually it would be practical if Paladin gained a trait that enhanced Aegis Boon to recover comparable MP to the HP is regenerates upon blocking and to, as you said before, enhance Outmaneuver's block rate and MP recovery.

Even still, I feel like Paladin was always meant to tank along side a Warrior, not exclusively. It's the 1-on-1 tank that can heal the other guy too, and was never meant to heal just himself. It's the pre-healer that uses his MP up at the start of a battle to ease the burdon of hate on the healer by healing the main tank. Holy Succor is a case in point imo. That's just what I'm beginning to think though, based on the job's blatent lack of real enmity tools.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

Replace the PLD with a GLA, and you wont need a Bard for MP refresh.



You didn't read much of the thread have you? You should try it out next time before you post a tantrum.

The majority of this discussion is about anything a PLD can do a GLA can do better. There is not much a PLD can do to outshine a GLA or a WAR when it comes to tanking which it is its role.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

Warrior seem like a better tank then PLD -.- which is pretty sad when PLD should out do the warrior in tanking. Pretty much warrior out does PLD and does awesome DMG.

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These two posts pretty much sum up the thread, for the last few people that seem to ignore it. Yes, PLD uses MP better etc. One person I saw complain about casting interrupts, I have not run into such an issue. The real issue is as these two mention (and is twofold).

Regardless of if you have a bard or not (which a lot of replies suggested), GLA has better abilities for tanking. PLD offers hardly anything as the only ability that is not situational or doesn't have a huge recast time is Holy Succor, which while some suggest can be used to generate extra enmity, GLA can still use MP with cure, it's just a less potent spell. People saying they're having an easier time on PLD, I would say it's likely a placebo effect from being in a party with a WHM and a BRD, and to test that you could try the fight on GLA and PLD with the same gear to see for yourself. Yes, the new abilities are neat, but on GLA I will only miss Holy Succor and Spirits Within - both of which cannot really be used too frequently.

The second problem, as the second post I am quoting brings up and the first post mentions, is that WAR is in fact better than both PLD and GLA at tanking regardless. I do not want WAR nerfed or anything, I actually haven't seen anyone request that at all. It is a bit odd though that one of the DD's is better at keeping hate and taking damage because of their HP boost rather than loss, equally high defense, and a front weaponskil combo with actual useful combo bonuses to survival and enmity.

From my understanding the biggest boost from the jobs is being able to equip the job specific gear, and the extra abilities. Each job was offered either exceptionally boosted gear (WHM set) or specific new abilities like the extra songs on BRD, or ws's on LNC, nukes on BLM+convert, PLD didn't get any extra enmity specific abilites except holy succor.

The question is how much enmity does holy succor generate, I know it can cure a lot of total HP from target + self, this could be generating the equivalent enmity of 2 provokes (depending if it uses enmity like cure 75% cured point for point into enmity generated) Also figuring if the healing potency can raise this and the fact that it can be nearly spammed barring MP limits it can really pump up a ton of enmity very quickly.

From a limited amount of testing I think we just don't fully understand the PLD's potential as a community yet.

I'd like to see a GLA Cover a mage when Great Buffalo drops hate when -20%HP. Then use Holy Succor to simultaneously replenish a party members HP and tanks HP at the same time thus effectively contributing to the party as more than a static meat shield whilst procuring more enmity.

I also personally like the fact that Divine Veil utilizes PLD as a satelite cure in order to take some hate burden off of a mage that has to cure heavy.

Hallowed Ground is a good "oh shit" button imo.

PLD also has a nice dmg output boost over GLA.

Last time i checked, key parts of being a tank were: resilience, a method with which to sustain enmity, and the know how to effectively combine the last two with proper positional awareness.

PLD isn't flawed: it is more geared for survival than GLA could ever hope to be. Ppl continue to make comments about MP vs. Second Wind and such, however they completely miss or AVOID the utility of Holy Succor in an attempt to justify their argument. Because being seen by the public as "right" is COOL and gives awesome ego boost so ppl will (respect?) you more.

Seems like everyone ranting about how PLD sucks should really be writing a thread about how user error dilutes the hard work and legitimacy of most well working concepts.

Jobs all have their own utility. SE said from the start that classes would still be just as capable of their role and weren't becoming obsolete. So what is everyone so afraid of? Change?

Well the majority already voted for change and now its here once again. Deal with it.

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Originally Posted by AreeyaJaidee

I'd like to see a GLA Cover a mage when Great Buffalo drops hate when -20%HP. Then use Holy Succor to simultaneously replenish a party members HP and tanks HP at the same time thus effectively contributing to the party as more than a static meat shield whilst procuring more enmity.

I also personally like the fact that Divine Veil utilizes PLD as a satelite cure in order to take some hate burden off of a mage that has to cure heavy.

Hallowed Ground is a good "oh shit" button imo.

PLD also has a nice dmg output boost over GLA.

Last time i checked, key parts of being a tank were: resilience, a method with which to sustain enmity, and the know how to effectively combine the last two with proper positional awareness.

PLD isn't flawed: it is more geared for survival than GLA could ever hope to be. Ppl continue to make comments about MP vs. Second Wind and such, however they completely miss or AVOID the utility of Holy Succor in an attempt to justify their argument. Because being seen by the public as "right" is COOL and gives awesome ego boost so ppl will (respect?) you more.

Seems like everyone ranting about how PLD sucks should really be writing a thread about how user error dilutes the hard work and legitimacy of most well working concepts.

Jobs all have their own utility. SE said from the start that classes would still be just as capable of their role and weren't becoming obsolete. So what is everyone so afraid of? Change?

Well the majority already voted for change and now its here once again. Deal with it.

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Congratulations on finding a use for cover, I truly commend you on that.

Hallowed ground I'm sure works great for buffalo too, as it is a physical attacking mob - once again I'm glad there's a use for it, though I am still underwhelmed by the 15 seconds. Some of these just seem too short a duration to make a difference - Hallowed Ground I would think you would use when things get rough; is that really enough time to recover? Perhaps the best use would be a situation where the WHM dies and you use it to get off raise.

As for Holy Succor, I suppose my problem is more that I usually go with a good WHM (career WHM from FFXI, played the job for years) so the only time I use it is when he tells me he's not going to cure me for some reason or another. I realize it is more useful in healing others, but most of the time I use it I see either me or my WHM's cure hitting for 0 because we both cured at the same time. I haven't run into enmity issues too much myself, but I think you're right in saying Holy Succor is useful for curing others

From the sounds of it, the abilities you get allow you to do great buffalo easier due to having enmity issues when it is reset.

As for the comment of survivability, however I disagree. Holy Succor is merely a more potent version of cure. While this is nice, it still requires a decent ammount of casting time, during which you could get hit and interrupted or killed. Personally, and I think others may agree, I find a combination of Second Wind -> Featherfoot -> Cure to work amazingly well for instantaneous and reliable damage mitigation and HP recovery. This also stalls for quite a bit, allowing for the WHM to have more time to get a cure of on you.

In short; sure, I agree, Holy Succor is great. The problem here is that Paladin is more MP reliant than Gladiator, and while gaining no noticeable defense, magic defense, block rate, or anything of the like, you trade abilities like Second Wind and Featherfoot and Deocy for highly situational (yes, you managed to find a situation for some of them) abilities such as Cover, Divine Veil, and Hallowed Ground.

The result is that a PLD has very little in terms of enmity generation or defense over GLA, while GLA has a great deal more useful abilities that allow it to stay alive longer. Because the two roles of a tank are to keep hate and not die, this makes GLA better.

Also, side-note: why is it that we have one hand devoted to holding up a shield, yet almost never actually use it?

I've been on Paladin as much as possible since the patch and it's pretty damn good. I don't know if it's the soul crystal but what I'm doing shouldn't be holding hate sometimes but it just is. Things like one war drum holding stuff through their whole life bar.

Where paladin really seems to excel isn't necessarily in boss fights (though I think it's great there too) but before that. Paladin's amazing for clearing trash packs and when shit hits the fan. Cover on a mage who's doing Excruciate>Flare, Holy Succor for the when someone manages to pull threat or your stuff is on cooldown, divine veil for when stuff is going really crazy, and hallowed ground for when your whm gets his icons confused and hits holy instead of regen or whatever.

Holy Succor's great, Spirits Within is pretty good considering the 250 tp cost (though I wouldn't mind a shorter cooldown), Divine Veil is good in some situations, and Cover is a whole lot better than people are giving it credit for (although be careful when using it around high damage aoe, haha).

I guess Gallant gear kind of sucks. The feet stand out as a particularly bad piece. The gauntlets are good if only for the effect. Legs aren't worth it if you have a double meld. Head I'm not so sure about, but probably not worth it. I'm wearing body regardless of stats just because it's so cool and I want to figure out what the Cover enhancement is.

Other than that only real complaint I have about it is that the paladin's subclasses are kind of ass. Marauder gives provoke and possibly bloodbath. The former is good but the latter really isn't for paladin, so you're basically just getting one skill. Conjurer gives Sacred Prism>Cure (one skill for the price of two, really, since cure is rarely worth casting outside of prism), Raise, and... stoneskin or protect I guess.

Oh and one nice change would be to make Divine Veil scale with a stat. As far as I can tell (and I may be wrong about this), it's 169/tick without AF legs and 203 with AF legs, regardless of any stat changes. I tried healing potency and enhancing magic. Veil's healing also doesn't scale with the power of the spell cast on you (cure/cura gave the same regen). One thing that just popped into my head that I didn't test was the enhancing magic stat of the mage curing you, so maybe that's it.

P.S. guy on the first page, FraenirVolsung, Foresight doesn't do shit for anyone wearing a shield in their offhand.

e: Actually a lot of the Gallant set feels like they forgot a digit or something. 1 enmity on the boots when Sentinel just got buffed to 9 is just weird. 3 enm and 3 healing potency on cuirass, etc.

I tanked the buffalo about a week ago, on gladiator of course, and while it was wailing on my face sonorous never reset hate to the point where a single provoke didn't take it back. i had thms and arcs going and had no trouble keeping hate. having a party that can keep their own hate down is common sense on stuff like buffalo. don't let your DD's be 'gifted'. i was the only person he was hitting so holy succor, divine veil = useless save for the extra hp i could cure myself for with succor. I'm far from resistant to change, i really like paladin. the JSE is my gripe. Maybe i'll use pld as a jack-of-all-trades/master-of-none for awhile til i find a working gear combo.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Where paladin really seems to excel isn't necessarily in boss fights (though I think it's great there too) but before that. Paladin's amazing for clearing trash packs and when shit hits the fan. Cover on a mage who's doing Excruciate>Flare, Holy Succor for the when someone manages to pull threat or your stuff is on cooldown, divine veil for when stuff is going really crazy, and hallowed ground for when your whm gets his icons confused and hits holy instead of regen or whatever.

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I may be a tad off-topic here, but just to comment on this part - I think you're right here to a degree, and perhaps you have not experienced partying with a WAR. The problem is, GLA can do what you suggest PLD can do just as fine, and even at that, partying with a WAR in Natalan, fights almost always went something like this:

I pull all wolves, get to camp. Pop Sentinel for boosted enmity, AOE flash, provoke my current target to ensure I can get an Aegis Boon off, hit Rampart. Once I get Aegis Boon to hit I use War Drum, Phalanx, Spirits Within. Pop Outmaneuver for the possible shield blocks, and start curing myself because at this point for a little enmity and to stay alive.

It's around this time that the WAR gets off Steel Cyclone, and every single mob that was attacking me is now stunned, and will be attacking the WAR when they are un-stunned. Meanwhile the war has a full Stoneskin up, and is losing no HP.

You can try to use AOE flash again, maybe get lucky to get your main target on you so you can try another War Drum, but before you can;

Steel Cyclone. The WAR is now fully healed (thats about 4000 HP, 1000 more than you), and mobs are stunned again. There is no way you're getting hate back.

Not complaining about WAR here, just saying you seem to suggest PLD is best at tanking lots of trash mobs, and while that's true, it's only true until the WAR gets TP. It is an excellent puller and initial tank so that mages don't have to worry at the start of a fight.

EDIT: Also a bit off topic, but I think comparing MRD/WAR to GLA/PLD is valid. The concept behind GLA/PLD is that we sacrifice using a bigger weapon so that we can use a shield... the problem with that is that we barely ever actually make use of said shield, whereas the MRD/WAR is just using a heavy duty weapon, and has about the same Defense with more HP. If shield/defense should be GLA/PLD's main focus, we should actually use the shield, and actually have more defense.


EDIT 2:

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

I tanked the buffalo about a week ago, on gladiator of course, and while it was wailing on my face sonorous never reset hate to the point where a single provoke didn't take it back. i had thms and arcs going and had no trouble keeping hate. having a party that can keep their own hate down is common sense on stuff like buffalo. don't let your DD's be 'gifted'. i was the only person he was hitting so holy succor, divine veil = useless save for the extra hp i could cure myself for with succor. I'm far from resistant to change, i really like paladin. the JSE is my gripe. Maybe i'll use pld as a jack-of-all-trades/master-of-none for awhile til i find a working gear combo.

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I'm with you here; I am not having problems with enmity on either GLA or PLD, so some of these new abilities that might be getting more enmity are rather lackluster. Sentinel + enmity ability spam is good enough right now. I too really like Paladin, and I love the look of the JSE. I simply wish PLD was actually a better tank than GLA, and more importantly WAR. The "gains" it has over GLA and WAR are not gains at all, but rather restrictions and hindrances to survivability.

I'm finding I'm doing the reverse of what was intended here: Partying on Gladiator, soloing on Paladin. I'm only soloing on Paladin so that I can actually use it somewhere, and for shorter solo fights, Spirits Within comes into play more often.

It's true there are a Myriad of different ways to tank in FFXIV.

Whether that is intentional or by accident on SE's part will always remain a debate only ended by SE itself.

Yes, PLD and GLA differ in situational utility. But honestly how much "hair splitting" are we doing here?

Jobs have been out for less than a week whilst Classes are veteran occupations. The only real difference is the majority of players who tank in ffxiv are more "comfortable" with the way they've played GLA. In other words PLD is the new kid on the block and no one likes him/her yet.

As far as WAR goes: this is no different than MRDs relation to GLA. There's always been a rival in terms of tanking prowess between GLA and MRD. Now that feud has transferred to the two respective inheritors.

PLD has always been about Heavy MP use. I really dont know why everyone's so shocked by this.

The moral here is that, so many Job bashing threads keep popping up because it's the "newest thing to gripe about". When in reality it's just a matter of a uneasy community receiving new elements which aren't fully understood yet.

For ppl that still wanna GLA: good for you. Good luck keeping a WAR from ganking your hate lock because in all honesty not even GLA is capable of man handling a skilled WAR ;)
(kinda unbalanced in regards to PvP right?)

P.S. Use that Shield Bash! :D

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Originally Posted by AreeyaJaidee

It's true there are a Myriad of different ways to tank in FFXIV.

Whether that is intentional or by accident on SE's part will always remain a debate only ended by SE itself.

Yes, PLD and GLA differ in situational utility. But honestly how much "hair splitting" are we doing here?

Jobs have been out for less than a week whilst Classes are veteran occupations. The only real difference is the majority of players who tank in ffxiv are more "comfortable" with the way they've played GLA. In other words PLD is the new kid on the block and no one likes him/her yet.

As far as WAR goes: this is no different than MRDs relation to GLA. There's always been a rival in terms of tanking prowess between GLA and MRD. Now that feud has transferred to the two respective inheritors.

PLD has always been about Heavy MP use. I really dont know why everyone's so shocked by this.

The moral here is that, so many Job bashing threads keep popping up because it's the "newest thing to gripe about". When in reality it's just a matter of a uneasy community receiving new elements which aren't fully understood yet.

For ppl that still wanna GLA: good for you. Good luck keeping a WAR from ganking your hate lock because in all honesty not even GLA is capable of man handling a skilled WAR ;)
(kinda unbalanced in regards to PvP right?)

P.S. Use that Shield Bash! :D

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Simply examining the abilities you get on PLD show that it doesn't gain anything in terms of enmity generation or survivability over GLA. The reliance on MP and lack of an ability to recover it is just one reason. Even using a BRD, you could have a different song on with GLA, or be recovering more MP to use it more. This isn't simply bashing the new system - PLD is supposed to be a GLA more specialized in tanking, yet it fails to be.

In terms of a keeping hate from a WAR, this is not doable on either PLD or GLA. PLD gets cover but that only lasts a short while, after which the WAR just gets hate back and keeps it. And yes, this is different from MRD vs GLA, as WAR has a far better AOE (also, they can still use the old one last I checked too). I like that MRD/WAR can tank, and think they should continue to be able to do so. It strikes me as odd, though, that GLA/PLD are not even close to as good, and PLD is even worse.

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Originally Posted by Phobos

Simply examining the abilities you get on PLD show that it doesn't gain anything in terms of enmity generation or survivability over GLA. The reliance on MP and lack of an ability to recover it is just one reason. Even using a BRD, you could have a different song on with GLA, or be recovering more MP to use it more. This isn't simply bashing the new system - PLD is supposed to be a GLA more specialized in tanking, yet it fails to be.

In terms of a keeping hate from a WAR, this is not doable on either PLD or GLA. PLD gets cover but that only lasts a short while, after which the WAR just gets hate back and keeps it. And yes, this is different from MRD vs GLA, as WAR has a far better AOE (also, they can still use the old one last I checked too). I like that MRD/WAR can tank, and think they should continue to be able to do so. It strikes me as odd, though, that GLA/PLD are not even close to as good, and PLD is even worse.

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Is it possible the point of PLD is increased dmg output balanced by an above average tanking and survivabilty all wrapped in one package?

Maybe we're looking at this in the wrong light.

Sounds like Manathirst materia is now in season!

Has anyone looked at the Darklight Heavy Stuff?

Darklight Heavy Armor (Body - Cannot equip head)
Defense: 308
HP: +160
Enmity: +45
Vitality: +20
Evasion: -20
Ma Evasion: +10
Regen: +5

Darklight Heavy Flanchard (Legs - Cannot Equip Feet)
Defense: 218
HP +140
Enmity: +25
Vitality: +12
Dexterity: +12
Evasion: -20
Ma Evasion: +10

Darklight Heavy Gaunlets (Hands)
Defense: 85
HP: +80
Enmity: +45
Vitality: +12
Mind: +12
Evasion: -20
Ma Evasion: +5

Now i realise this is a rare drop from the dungeons, but come on, i jizzed in my pants when i saw this, so hope to get it all one day.

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Originally Posted by AreeyaJaidee

Is it possible the point of PLD is increased dmg output balanced by an above average tanking and survivabilty all wrapped in one package?

Maybe we're looking at this in the wrong light.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gildrein

A master of sword and shield, the gladiator is a melee specialist who excels in defense. Though his individual blows do not deal great damage, he is able to deliver them in quick succession, a quality that has earned him a reputation for dependability. The paladin job sacrifices maximum HP, but this is compensated by way of greatly enhanced defense as well as the ability to cast healing magic. Valiant by nature, a paladin can shield his comrades from blows, making him the unyielding rock upon which a party’s defense is built.

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Nope. This is the light I'm trying to look at PLD in, yet it fails to hold up to what it seems their intention was.

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Originally Posted by ThugHunter

Has anyone looked at the Darklight Heavy Stuff?

Darklight Heavy Armor (Body - Cannot equip head)
Defense: 308
HP: +160
Enmity: +45
Vitality: +20
Evasion: -20
Ma Evasion: +10
Regen: +5

Darklight Heavy Flanchard (Legs - Cannot Equip Feet)
Defense: 218
HP +140
Enmity: +25
Vitality: +12
Dexterity: +12
Evasion: -20
Ma Evasion: +10

Darklight Heavy Gaunlets (Hands)
Defense: 85
HP: +80
Enmity: +45
Vitality: +12
Mind: +12
Evasion: -20
Ma Evasion: +5

Now i realise this is a rare drop from the dungeons, but come on, i jizzed in my pants when i saw this, so hope to get it all one day.

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While the new gear is very nice, and I agree with you I needed a thorough pants-cleaning after looking at them, I feel as though these are going to be very difficult to get based on their stats, and I don't feel as though the gear PLD can wear (which, btw WAR can as well) should be reason to use the job over the class.

Ultimately, my problem is not necessarily that GLA is better than PLD (which I beleive it is), but that PLD should outclass GLA and WAR in terms of tanking (both in regards to enmity generation and survivability), but suffer in terms of DD. Currently, this is not the case.

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Originally Posted by Phobos

Nope. This is the light I'm trying to look at PLD in, yet it fails to hold up to what it seems their intention was.

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I still don't see how PLD fails as a tank. I've been testing it for awhile now and no issues at all so far.

One thing I can agree with is all the jobs have only a difference of 10 stat points, I think we all know how much difference that makes.

Hmm, how about this: Gladiators are better for tanking and self-preservation, while Paladins are better for tanking while protecting others?

I do agree that PLD could use a few tweaks to improve some skills a bit, but maybe it's how we define the role of the PLD tank that needs to be reevaluated as well? Most (if not all) of the posts I'm seeing here is about using Holy Succor on yourself, when it looks like its purpose is to preserve others (while simultaneously benefiting yourself).

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Originally Posted by AreeyaJaidee

I still don't see how PLD fails as a tank. I've been testing it for awhile now and no issues at all so far.

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I don't know what you've been using it on, but so far I see very little gains for PLD over GLA, while GLA retains much greater survivability, which is a key aspect of a tank. I think you missed the part where PLD is supposed to have greatly enhanced defense compared to GLA. Instead we just have an HP penalty.

It's like if in FFXI SE made a change where PLD could not sub NIN and had an HP penalty, but don't worry we gave you 10 extra defense to make up for it.

The fact also remains, that even the GLA/PLD comparison aside, WAR beats both by miles in terms of tanking and damage dealing. Again, while I support WAR's ability to tank (we shouldnt have just one class/job that can tank, makes leveling and other general party play more difficult to approach as you rely on having to find a PLD, rather than having to find a PLD or a WAR), WAR should not be the best tank - seeing as PLD is supposed to be a tank.

EDIT: Also, the ability to tank on PLD does not make it a good tank. If we sacrificed self-sustaining abilities for enmity abilities I could understand.

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Originally Posted by psykhaotic

Hmm, how about this: Gladiators are better for tanking and self-preservation, while Paladins are better for tanking while protecting others?

I do agree that PLD could use a few tweaks to improve some skills a bit, but maybe it's how we define the role of the PLD tank that needs to be reevaluated as well? Most (if not all) of the posts I'm seeing here is about using Holy Succor on yourself, when it looks like its purpose is to preserve others (while simultaneously benefiting yourself).

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A good tank will not have to cure others as much as themselves, due to forcing mobs to attack them rather than others.

Yes, there's AOE's and all, but I suppose I'm just used to having a good WHM with me almost constantly.

For Chimera fight GLA is significantly better than PLD, Sanguine Rite alone is better than anything PLD has; add Second Wind, Featherfoot, extra HP, there really is no comparison. It looks like for anything that Cover is not a significant part of the battle plan (which is everything), GLA is a better tank than PLD.

One thing you can not argue with is PLD has significantly better Oh-shit abilities vs its GLA counterpart, from a short duration invincibility, a spike enmity skill which cures 2 targets for a good chunk of HP with near instant recast, and the ability to cover if you can't get the hate back in time because your out of MP or skills are on cooldown. I feel like PLD is done perfectly where you really have to rely on the group to each do their job and being on PLD gives you a greatly increased enmity threashhold allowing your party go much harder DPS wise and finish off mobs faster.

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For Chimera fight GLA is significantly better than PLD, Sanguine Rite alone is better than anything PLD has; add Second Wind, Featherfoot, extra HP, there really is no comparison. It looks like for anything that Cover is not a significant part of the battle plan (which is everything), GLA is a better tank than PLD.

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While I agree loosing those skills natively is bad you can get them back through the party system working properly and getting a brd or THM to aoe sanguin rite on you when needed. I do feel the pain of loosing 2nd wind that skill is really a bummer to loose for me probably the hardest to deal without.

If darklight armor is JOB specific then the gear issue really tips the scale in PLD's favor those stats are pretty insane.

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Originally Posted by Ragz

For Chimera fight GLA is significantly better than PLD, Sanguine Rite alone is better than anything PLD has; add Second Wind, Featherfoot, extra HP, there really is no comparison. It looks like for anything that Cover is not a significant part of the battle plan (which is everything), GLA is a better tank than PLD.

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Precisely. I feel as though some people have not used PLD in a difficult long lasting fight. Many of the "advantages" people are feeling PLD has really wane as a fight drags on. I personally have no enmity issues on either PLD or GLA, which renders Cover useless and Holy Succor less effective. The fact is, most of your healing should be on yourself, as you should be taking the majority of the damage. Let the WHM decide if its worth sparing MP to cure others after AOE's, or let them heal themselves (through abilities or waiting a few seconds before doing anything else).

In shorter fights, the difference between GLA and PLD is not as noticeable, its when you do these longer drawn out boss fights that it becomes truly apparent. I would bet anyone claiming PLD is better than GLA is just experiencing a side-effect of having a WHM and possibly a BRD as opposed to CNJ.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by tachi

One thing you can not argue with is PLD has significantly better Oh-shit abilities vs its GLA counterpart, from a short duration invincibility, a spike enmity skill which cures 2 targets for a good chunk of HP with near instant recast, and the ability to cover if you can't get the hate back in time because your out of MP or skills are on cooldown. I feel like PLD is done perfectly where you really have to rely on the group to each do their job and being on PLD gives you a greatly increased enmity threashhold allowing your party go much harder DPS wise and finish off mobs faster.



While I agree loosing those skills natively is bad you can get them back through the party system working properly and getting a brd or THM to aoe sanguin rite on you when needed. I do feel the pain of loosing 2nd wind that skill is really a bummer to loose for me probably the hardest to deal without.

If darklight armor is JOB specific then the gear issue really tips the scale in PLD's favor those stats are pretty insane.

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I urge you to use Hallowed Ground as an "oh-shi!" ability on Ifrit. The result could very well be a dead PLD. An instant heal and an evade (to help prevent interrupt) + cure heal HP which work for both physical and magical attacks, and stalls for long enough for a WHM to get that critical cure in.

Also, Holy Succor does have a short recast, but also a massive MP cost, and relatively long casting time for someone getting hit. While you suggest this spike enmity is nice and could be right, we have no testing to prove this theory. I would suggest, however, that the more cures over time you can perform on GLA will outweigh the enmity gained by succor. Enmity at this point isn't even an issue anyway.

You suggest a THM using sanguine rite, though now instead of the PLD having to be on class instead of job, its the BLM. BRD works too but again this just puts more reliance on BRD, and both of these can still be done to a GLA rather than a PLD.

The ability to make up for the drawbacks of PLD through other party members does not make up for it's losses. You're comparing apples to oranges being assisted by bananas. You fail to realize that those same bananas could assist the apples rather than the oranges.

There was a post by a dev in the JP forums concerning adjustments to paladin.

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Originally Posted by tachi

One thing you can not argue with is PLD has significantly better Oh-shit abilities vs its GLA counterpart, from a short duration invincibility, a spike enmity skill which cures 2 targets for a good chunk of HP with near instant recast, and the ability to cover if you can't get the hate back in time because your out of MP or skills are on cooldown. I feel like PLD is done perfectly where you really have to rely on the group to each do their job and being on PLD gives you a greatly increased enmity threashhold allowing your party go much harder DPS wise and finish off mobs faster.



While I agree loosing those skills natively is bad you can get them back through the party system working properly and getting a brd or THM to aoe sanguin rite on you when needed. I do feel the pain of loosing 2nd wind that skill is really a bummer to loose for me probably the hardest to deal without.

If darklight armor is JOB specific then the gear issue really tips the scale in PLD's favor those stats are pretty insane.

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There is just no comparison to Sanguine Rite in a boss fight. The difference is between virtually unlimited MP that you can Cure/Stoneskin yourself constantly and about 10 Holy Succor or 20 Cure. It's unrealistic for others to Sanguine tank for these fights where it's needed most since getting anywhere close risks getting one shot instantly, especially with BLM's 2200 hp.