At 50, Base MP Regen is 4k MP over 60s, Blood weapon is 1k every minute, sprinkle 2 Souleater combos in every minute and you will have enough to cast FoD twice per minute, but starting at full MP lets you cast 3 even before MP restore comes into play. By 60, you add Abyssal Drain and Salted Earth into the rotation for more DpS. By 70, you have both Quietus and Delirium which further boost Mp Restore and DpS every 90s along with a single Quietus every 60s from Blood Weapon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tint
Dark Knight isn't as gimped as it seems.
Dark Knight Media Tour Feedback
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06-12-2019, 08:30 AMUltimatecalibur
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06-12-2019, 08:58 AMChrono_RisingI’m fairly certain paladin rotation will be what it is currently with every other Royal Authority combo replaced with Atonement and your final cast of Holy Spirit being replaced with confiteor.Quote:
Originally Posted by TouchandFeel
Based on what you posted you are leaving your entire goring combo at the door under FoF, and I'm fairly certain that is not what you will want to do in general. There are a few open questions about how many stacks we can hold, and how long the buff will be (right now looks like 15 seconds but uncertain if duration will change), and if we can refresh the buff with royal authority, but I don't think the proposed rotation gets the most out of your buffs. -
06-12-2019, 10:05 AMChrono_RisingQuote:
Originally Posted by TouchandFeel
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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel
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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel
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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel
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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel
Your post has been up and incorrect for approximately 4 hours now. I understand that you are working on the blank spaces and real life gets addressed, and I understand that gunbreaker rotation has the WIP note on it. But it is not clear your note refers to paladin as well.
I quoted you multiple times because you seem to care about accuracy of information as evidenced by said quotes as well as the subjective/objective nature of the issues raised, I agree with your sentiment, and would also like accuracy. While I disagree on needing to say something is opinion, I believe all analysis is done with some level of bias that we need to be aware of, I do agree with you on accuracy.
If you are unable to complete your post in a timely fashion, especially when it has factually wrong information on it, I think the reasonable thing to do would be to erase your rotations and finish the post in a text document where you can work offline and post the correct information when you have the time to finish the work, rather than leaving factually incorrect information on it for an extended period of time.
Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by TouchandFeel
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06-12-2019, 10:43 AMChrono_RisingQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
I should probably not cross thread post, but this was raised in a different thread and I would like to expand on it in this post.
A number of the skills and directions that have been taken with dark knight look to fit into this scheme that Lyth points out.
Blood weapon 60 second cooldown gives 1 EoS and 1 bloodspiller, all synergy within the kit (like procing from oGCD moves) has been removed as well as removing the speed value. At face value this seems stronger than infuriate, except that you need to pop this at certain times in your GCD as well as meet some skill speed requirements to guarantee getting your 5 hits to make them equivalent. Except now infuriate gives a huge potency buff to Fell Cleave, gives access to an ability which acts to reduce the timer on infuriate, and synergizes with other warrior abilities. Double infuriate in the opener leads to cooldown reductions, inner release leads to even more cooldown reductions.
Delirium on a 90 second cooldown removed blood cost and restores some mp. Ok based on clips the mp gain is underwhelming, 200 mp per bloodspiller, while nice I guess it takes 3 uses of delirium before you see anything from that mana gain, it doesn’t remove guage cost from everything (living shadow will still cost you 50 blood), and has no added potency benefits. Compare this to Inner release which removes all guage cost (not just fell cleave but also upheaval and onslaught), automatic direct hit and crit, and as a secondary effect of the spam reduces the timer on Warriors biggest hit Inner Chaos.
This next one is still up in the air, but our Invuln may have recently seen the same treatment.
Right now Holmgang and living dead seem to be balanced as equivalents, which is also problematic, but it may have gotten worse. The language in the holmgang tooltip has been changed to remove the rooting downside. Currently we have 180 second cooldown for 6 seconds of cannot be killed with the drawbacks of needing a target and a rooting effect. In other words we have 30 seconds of cooldown per 1 second of cannot die on Holmgang. It sounds like one of drawbacks have been removed with no change in cooldown/invuln. Living dead currently has 300 seconds of cooldown per 10 seconds of invuln, with the drawback of dying if the healing condition is not met as well as having a variable timer. That is 30 seconds of cooldown per 10 seconds of invuln, except that we still have a death condition as well as having a variable amount of invuln time because we can be healed out of our invuln state early. The cooldown/invuln time is as bad as 300 cooldown/1 second of invuln to 30 seconds of cd/1 second of invuln.
I’m not saying warriors need a nerf, but I would love to have some of this game play synergy as part of the dark knight kit as we did in heavensward. Dark Knight originally had these great synergies within its kit, and each expansion we see more of them removed and returned as warrior lite type skills with reduced benefits. We are continuing to get the bad parts of this kit, like 10 second buffs that need to be timed and have skill speed requirements, but see a much smaller portion of the payoff. -
06-12-2019, 10:54 AMADVSS
How come they couldnt put a bloodpricey after effect onto Shadow Wall? I mean the 55pot counter damage of vengeance-let that stay a WAR thing, it would fit DRK more if they baked it into some of their cooldown usage (They did get rid of BP didnt they?or am I wrong)[personally id never of let BP go, but if the devs wanted to do it in favor of having BW only
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06-12-2019, 11:51 AMChrono_RisingYes, they sort of addressed it while ignoring other key feed back. Like playing the job for the fast pace. Dark art on your dark arts was not interesting and left little to no room for anything else, and if you needed to mitigate in your opener, well then you have to give up dps for it because you had 0 oGCD spaces left in the first several GCDs pushing your oGCD moves out of raid buffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by TouchandFeel
Having a single GCD rotation was also mentioned as not being interesting. That was not addressed, and we didn't really get any more resource management to compensate for there now literally only being GCD combo.
I tried to address in the OP that the proposed new version of darkside actually isn't representing any kind of choice. If you use all your EoS casts in the first 20 seconds of battle, you'll need to press EoS again before a minute is up to avoid overcapping mana, which means darkside will get reapplied regardless as long as you manage mana. Darkside management on shadowbringers dark knight is a red hearing, it is really just mana mangement disguised as buff maintenance. This is why in the OP I asked for versions for EoS and FoS which did more damage but did not extend darkside, because then we would have an actual choice in where things get applied and how to manage our mana, blood, and darkside buff.
I like the concept of TBN breaking gives a dark arts which can be used for a "free" EoS. However, what the kit seems to lack right now is synergy. TBN still has the danger of not breaking, it still is risk dps risk without dps reward, adding dark arts effects to moves in addition to the free proc is just my thoughts on how to lessen that while adding interaction into the abilities.
Nails it from what I can tell currently. We have little to no management, save doing things for trick attack, and if you don't have a ninja then alot of this doesn't even apply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyni
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06-12-2019, 12:44 PMWhyAmIHereBecause as has been shown in 4.0 and for now in 5.0, SE has no idea what DRK is supposed to be in each expansion. In 3.0 there was a lot of emphasis put on mana management and oGCD proc synergy. Come 4.0 the mana drain from darkside was removed because reasons, and we were given a shoddily designed blackblood gauge to deal with. DRK obtained their new job gauge system later than anyone else, and as has been shown by the 5.0 media event, the acquisition of skills made no sense while leveling. (That is, the first skill you obtain at 62 is a skill that started as a 120s recasted ability, New Delirium. This was later dropped to 80s. Come 5.0, the order in which these skills are obtained will be adjusted... why this could not have been done in the 4.x expansion is beyond me, in hindisght seeing these changes.) DRK received very little in terms of attention from SE when it came to the issues with its tool kit, where PLD in 4.0's initial release had a few issues, and by 4.2 WAR was overhauled into something completely different from how it was in 4.0.Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVSS
Come 5.0 we lose even further complexity and sense of reason for why DRK exists beyond "lore." Darkside is no longer a skill, now a tacked on effect to two new skills. (I'll point out it took at patch in 4.x, not sure which off hand, to make it so darkside didn't fall off after dying.) These new skills have become what the job's core will be: use on cooldown to maintain your darkside buff, but don't overextend their usage for the purpose of still having access to TBN should the need arise. What's this mean to me? It means a detachment of established job flow by segregating further the interaction between MP and blackblood, not directly through gameplay but by game feel as they're now less of a thing to worry about. You dump your MP, regen it over the fight, use TBN to give you a free cast of your darkside-extending-mana-dump skill, and sprinkle in bloodspiller and quietus as needed. (Which, due to how this lax focus on MP in 5.0 seems to entail, SE removed the MP restoring effect from Quietus... which they had to add in a 4.0# patch because they nerfed DRK's overall MP restoring ability via blood price...)
It doesn't take much more than a layman's cursory understanding to see DRK feels lackluster. the "1-2-3 sometimes 4" GCD rotation is disappointing, but as has been said isn't much effectively different from what WAR/PLD/GNB will be doing... except it is, but not on a mechanical level.
It's disheartening on a gamefeel level. Before yes all DRK effectively did was souleater combo, even moreso if you had a WAR co-tank and a party of DPS/Healers that knew how to manage their aggro. But most of all DRK has been a process of stripping away more and more of what it used to do come each expansion since it's release. A trimming away of abilities has left DRK with a hollow husk of what it once was. No more haste from blood weapon; sole survivor removed because, yet again SE made a change, an improvement to a skill, but later on removed it because reasons; mana / blood management has devolved from being this involved process that required attention and skill into this "oh i have enough MP/Blood for this? okay" lameduck pittance of effort to utilize; we still have the arguable worst tank invuln in the game; our capstone ability from stormblood, TBN, has devolved from an on-demand shield with a skill ceiling for effective use to a now "use this once or maybe twice a minute" button that only serves to extend darkside effectively, and act as a shield secondarily; ShB's capstone ability, The Living Shadow, is lackluster when paired with the rest of the job's kit in that, yes it's great from an aesthetics / class lore mindset, but from a gameplay setting it's just another button to press with no impact on literally anything else you do.
Every time SE touches anything with DRK's kit, more and more is stripped away, from a gameplay loop perspective to a job identity perspective, save for one thing. DRK's lore is that it is the job of those that pay a cost for everything they do. That seems to be the only element of its job identity that continues to be used when DRK's skills are designed, that they should have a cost. But as has been demonstrated time and time again now, SE does not know how to make paying those costs feel meaningful nor impactful. It has been simplified, reevaluated, reduced again, and then further simplified because reasons. Any and all feedback from the community is not heeded, a failing of the 1.0 mindset of "we know what's best for you," if you'll pardon the hyperbole. DRK's general reception from the playerbase will change come 5.0, due to it being the figurehead job for the expansion.
As much as people will recant "wait til 5.0 to play it, you don't know how it even plays" and "all we know is outdated information from an old build, things can change," you're right figurative person, both of those things are true. Until people level DRK to 80 and play it, and until we see the tooltips / toolkit DRK has all anyone has is speculation. But it's not against scientific theory to hypothesize what the outcome will be with the evidence provided.
This rant definitely went sideways, but I feel it was essential to convey ultimately that: everything DRK can do, the other tanks do better. DRK's design has had the edges trimmed away so much, been refined and distilled so many times in development, that it's lost the essence of what it once used to be. It has no flavor, no substance, nothing that the playerbase has been asking for. This is SE's DRK design, like it or leave it. I just worry that, after taking it through the expansion, playing the job, seeing what people smarter than I have said over and over and over again, and comparing it to what its peers offer, DRK will be just that, left behind by those but the most devoted to the aesthetics of DRK, the selfsame thing that too has been slowly eroded. -
06-12-2019, 01:38 PMLyth
Identity
I think the issues related to DRK have been fairly clearly laid out.
The single biggest issue is identity. PLD has a strong support aesthetic. WAR hits really hard. The devs made a point that WAR would still have the highest potency attack. They each have a fairly clear cut theme that's inviolate. You can't out-PLD a PLD. You can't out-WAR a WAR.
With DRK, it becomes a lot less clear. What are we? Last expansion, I would have suggested that we're supposed to be the 'fast' tank. The natural progression, I would have thought, would be to build on that. We don't need the Fellest Cleave. We needed fast, multi-hit attacks. Attacks aesthetically similar to Suzaku's Flurry of Blows. Attacks similar to Omnislash. It's clear that they've gone this route instead with Gunblade and Continuation (i.e. Renzokuken/'Continuous Blade'). That's fine, but we need to keep searching for an aesthetic then.
Shadowbringers' solution to this seems to be: well, you hit hard. So are we suddenly WAR now, except with purple flames? We already know that we're not going to be able to compete with WAR in their own design space. We all know that our Fell Cleave will always be weaker than their Fell Cleave. Our Inner Release will always be weaker than their Inner Release. So why are we going this route? And if we do ever reach parity on these big hard hitting attacks, then where's their individuality?
Another direction that we could have looked at is resource stealing. But a lot of this has been de-emphasised with the return of in combat MP regeneration. Blood Weapon is up less often, up for a shorter duration, and doesn't add anything on multiple targets. The wording also suggests that it no longer procs off of oGCDs like Plunge and C+S (Weaponskills and Spells only). Blood Price is gone (but realistically speaking, it died at the start of Stormblood anyways). Quietus doesn't steal MP. Sole Survivor is gone. Pretty much the only improvement is this regard is the now consistent healing on Souleater, but most tanks seem to have an equivalent to this now, on top of additional self-heals.
Just as an added comment with regards to combos: This business of 'combo complexity' has never made a whole lot of sense to me. You could have the most elaborate combo system in the world, but at the end of the day, it's going to be a fixed rotation that becomes muscle memory. It has nothing to with the technical challenge of a job. What influences the difficulty is the number of situational decisions that you need to make, which in turn come out of things like resource expenditure, off-global usage, and so on.
That being said, when I saw the benchmark, I thought that they had built in a new combo based off of MP consumption and was excited for a little bit.
Practical Considerations
Let's put this aside for a second. Maybe the job doesn't offer you anything particularly unique from a gameplay perspective. But how will it work in practice?
There are obviously some unanswered questions here. It's hard to gauge what the final dps numbers will be like, at the moment. But there are certainly some things that we can comment on. TBN is looking really good (probably the one redeeming part of this kit). But there's also a worry about how this thing is going to break in practice. Are we going to be afraid to use it outside of tankbusters for fear that we'll lose the resource value?
This magic tank nonsense is another issue as well. Identities are always based around strengths, not weaknesses. Rather than describing DRK as tanks that are strong against magic damage, it's probably more accurate to describe them as tanks that are weak against physical damage. If you want a magic defense theme, build it into the player's counter-attacks. Instead of "defends against magic damage only" it should be "counterattacks against magic damage only". That's how you keep flavour without making a tank into a situational liability.
Living Dead is unchanged, an looks to be even worse with rising HP values and the loss of Convalescence. Someone pointed out earlier that DRK has always been behind in the self-healing department anyways. That's fine. So then why do we have this healing penalty again? That's not to mention the fact that, when you look at the Invulns, DRK and GNB again suffer from that 'middle tank syndrome' in which neither get to be as good as the two tanks on either extreme.
I would have settled for a UI gauge that showed your healer how much required healing was left. They did it for shielding. I would have even settled for a public acknowledgement from the dev team that the invulns are a problem.
Feedback
The question of feedback was raised. Should players explain the reasoning behind their complaints? Absolutely. But I think that most of us realise that anyways. Explaining why you don't like something always carries more weight than simply stating that you dislike it. I think we've done a fairly good job of that.
Should the devs explain the reasoning behind their decisions? Absolutely. We're not entitled to anything. But when other companies are doing it, then it becomes an industry standard. You may not always agree with the reasoning, but some engagement and interaction is better than none. It's better than talking to the silent wall that is this dev team at the moment.
One more point worth mentioning: have a look at this thread, over on the healer forums. I'm not sure what the accuracy of this is, but four battle system designers for 17 jobs? Go figure.
In short, it was a mess, and it still is a mess. There is a lot of detailed feedback out there from the past year and a half, at least some of which has been clearly translated and passed on. I think what most of us want to see is specific comments on these issues. And it's tiring waiting for yet another live letter in the hopes of hearing even an off comment on these long standing balance and identity problems, only to hear more discussion on glamour inventory space and housing. I don't even care if the devs speak out on these job related issues and say something incredibly silly. I just want to see them get commented on. -
06-12-2019, 04:09 PMDanelo
:/ No wonder there aren't any new ideas and everything seems to be a poor mans version of superior abilities, minus any kit synergies, from WAR (comment on linked thread).
I have to be honest, I'm really shocked things look the way they do for DRK right now. WAR's the golden child and DRK is the badly beaten step child of SE but all jokes aside (kinda joking) there were a ton of well thought out and interesting ideas on this forum and on Reddit about DRK kit and different synergies within the kit. Maybe it's naive of me, but I thought at least these forums were checked out be SE for feedback. I know some in the past have been commented on by staff.
I absolutely agree with you, Lyth, about SE responding to the community regarding this. Given what seems to be overwhelming and almost unanimous dissatisfaction from the DRK community (what's left of it), aside from those I highly suspect as wanting to maintain OP tank status for their preferred job(s), it would seem a wise move to address this now rather than wait it out. Maybe a response in the forums "we hear your concerns based on the media tour build and we look forward to addressing those concerns" or "we hear you and this the direction we are going and to this end we have implemented X". The silence is deafening and disconcerting considering the backlash to the rework design. -
06-12-2019, 04:27 PMADVSS
I wonder, is the JP community generally happy about this DRK rework, or are the DRK there discontent as well with certain concerns as we are?
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06-12-2019, 05:07 PMshao32The show a clear discontent about exactly the same stuff as us, from the new gameplay design with delirium, lack of combos and sinergy/deep of the job to concerns about his lack of self-healing, living dead design and dark mind/missionary only magic reduction.Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVSS
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06-12-2019, 05:19 PMADVSSThanks for the input, not to say I'm relieved, but at least the entire community seems to have the same concerns, hopefully they will find a way to make some changes, the sooner being better. But 2 expansions in, we know this is never going to be an over night thing, the best we can do as we have been is voice our concerns and offer constructive solutions and hope they take a glance at them and try to compromise.Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
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06-12-2019, 05:22 PMWhyAmIHereI doubt there will be any shortage of post-launch feedback.Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVSS
I know personally I will take DRK through lower level content to relearn how it plays as well as get a better assessment of how leveling could feel. -
06-12-2019, 06:13 PMKyni
I don't think DRK will feel that bad in Dungeons or during leveling. The higher resource gain on the aoe combo, the combat breaks between pulls (cooldowns cooling down out of combat mp regen) and the lack of need to fit as much as possible into a burst window ( so the ogcd get spread around more, distracting from the 1 combo only, like the class works on live currently) are kinda fixing a lot of problems the rework. I'm also pretty sure, that a lot of people are going to play and enjoy the new DRK, with the class being the poster boy for the expansion, the pretty nice looking animation and ease of play.
Let's face it the people, who are currently speaking out against the DRK rework are a) people who played and liked the HW and/or SB Version of DRK and don't want their main class to lose its identity ( and rightfully so) and b) people who look at how the job is gonna play in a raid setting and then notice how boring and monotone it is going to be. (and obviously a lot of them are both^^) But most people are not like that, they are just going to go by what feels good to play and if you don't care for optimization and don't have an old play style to miss, the new DRK is going to feel pretty good (flashy animations, decent numbers and with spread out ogcd pretty active). Just look at Reddit, people are a lot more positive towards the rework there. -
06-12-2019, 06:28 PMshao32
Getting a new generation of DRK mains at the cost of all the veterans is a very questinoable move.
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06-12-2019, 07:24 PMTintI sure am a type A person xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Kyni
I just quote myself from afew months back:
Changes are not good... especially this one for ShB xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Tint
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06-12-2019, 07:36 PMKyniPretty sure that wasn't their intent ( at least i hope^^). They kinda did listen to feedback. DA spam was reduced and uncoupled it from the other abilities to remove the double weaving requirement( yeah that turned out great). They gave Drk a burst window like War ( literally). Darkside was turned from a passiv buff to something that needs to be managed (in theory). It's now “easier” to bottom out ( the difficulty in SB was in not over capping) and they gave Drk a thematic raid cd.Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
The problem is they went much to literal about it and didn't look at why people disliked the things they changed and also what those changes would do to the gameplay. Ironicly one of the major changes they didn't address was Drk needing a second combo finisher to shake up the gcd game at least a little bit. -
06-12-2019, 07:57 PMshao32The problem I saw is the selective changes they made, I can't recall see feedback based on what we get, will true ppl complaint about dark arts we repeat in every big and small DRK thread that we want to be more like HW and recover all the weight on the mechanics that become nerfed like darkside and dark arts tactical use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyni
At the same time I never saw ppl asking for more burst on DRK but we complaint about how WAR burst was a bit broken and how they benefic from the meta, getting inner release with all the 5.0 changes is against of all our feedback, literally they take the route of "they complaint about it we will remove it then" ignoring everything else.
Deliberated or not I consider SE keep ignoring DRK feedback, like if someone look the thread tittle and not looking the inside complete missing the point again and again. -
06-12-2019, 10:49 PMSatarnThe issue is that a lot of people don't actually play jobs right and thus don't understand how they work - I don't mean they don't fully optimize, but straight up fail to utilize job mechanics. For people like this anything will "feel" good, as long as it looks good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyni
It seems to be SE's go-to strategy for "fixing" jobs tbh, just slap a bunch of flashy effects and people will eat it up. It's easy to see with MCH - they tried to make it more appealing in SB so they added acrobatics to every gcd while actually breaking the gameplay. With SHB again they doubled down on the flash with tools and a mecha and look at how many people suddnely wanna switch to MCH - all the while experienced MCH players already theorycraft it to not just suffer from same gameplay issues as before, but suffer from them even harder.
Part of the problem is that a lot of people giving feedback pointed out what they don't like, while failing to realize why it's an issue and not explaining it properly. Look at how many people rejoiced at the removal of DA without even thinking what it really means. SE has a tendency to remove mechanics rather than fix them, but a chunk of community really encourages that.Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
I've seen a lot of people asking for DA to be replaced with some burst buff like FoF or IR or complain about how DRK has to "work so much more than other tanks for the same results", so it's not so surprising they dumbed it down and made the job play more like WAR. I really wish people were more thoughtful with their feedback honestly.
Although I more wish devs used their "professional experience" to, well, know better. -
06-12-2019, 11:14 PMshao32well yeah i agreed, this changes exist bcs that kind of feedback was made, but at the same time that feedback was never supported, big DRK threads was made by Lyth, Chrono and others giving pretty clear feedback about what we want and the direction of the job should be more like HW, all of then was highly supported by us, so the logic of the rework blow my mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satarn
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06-12-2019, 11:30 PMADVSSYeah I mean when ss recovers 1/4 of what it currently does, with an mp pool almost right in line with the 10k we will be getting its clear that the potency increases from using DA are baked into a forced rotation, that we lost the choice to boost the attack(or defense in HW which i liked)Quote:
Originally Posted by Satarn
The blood gauge really felt forced and tacked on in SB despite the fact we were already maintaining a gauge in mp, so much so that the kit had to be stripped to feel mostly complete at near max level(does anyone even use SB delirium?).
But DA maintenence being gone is illusory, its just harder now to bounce back if you bottom out because the gains are 4x less
DA spam might have been annoying but the HW rendition made it both an offensive and defensive choice when planning ahead.
I wouldve liked to go back to HW but made the magic only concept a little more fair and streamlined to the other 3 tanks.
Then I wouldve wanted a fair look at living dead, and see if we couldnt get DRK some more survivability(burst lifetap), in their own themed way.
But again, never fond of the gauge to begin with.Anyway, I guess the management of darkside and blood gauge, is now just a syntax replacement to the mp management, and everyones forced to at least perform half optimally, or theyll go out of darkside and mp.(not that DS is anything to worry about, just feels tacky but unnecessary with the romaval of skills that having it on blocked like BP.)
But again, not a hardcore raider, so I didnt think we needed Fell Cleavez, rather a little more utility, and a fair invuln that works outside raids and voicechat(which the game does not provide) personally, id like to see parries work on magic as well, but thats just another gripe of mine. -
06-13-2019, 12:51 AMwhiskeybravoThe main thing I recall regarding DRK burst was that it really didn't have a burst phase of it's own, it relied more on shifting stuff around to better line up with raid buff windows. Where WAR is all burst and PLD has fairly sustained output, DRK was just somewhere in the middle - as they seem to be in most other areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
I'll admit, from the outside looking in Delirium always seemed like a pretty weak ability that could've served a more important purpose. I think the math worked out so it seemed like a fairly strong ability on paper (not really sure), but I don't know, it just seemed to lack any real pizzazz IMO. If they wanted to make it mechanically similar to Inner Release they should've at least done it a different way - like instead of making it "no cost" have it refund the cost after performing an action. Even a little change like that would've at least made it less obvious of an IR clone. (I'm not discounting anything else they could've done with Delirium, just something off the top of my head) -
06-13-2019, 01:34 AMChrono_RisingI used google translate to read some of the posts in their dark knight thread, and they appear to touch on a number of things which are being brought up in our posts. ***Google translate doesn't seem to do a great job at capturing nuanced things specific to language so alot of what I read as a direct translation didn't make sense and needed some reading between the lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVSS
Living dead is a weak Holmgang.
Mana generation seems low.
TBN might not break and represents risk without reward.
Someone mentions wanting the haste effect back.
Another raises a concern that defensively we aren't magically strong, we are physically weak.
HP sustain seems to be tuned abit low.
Carve and spit seems to have been significantly weakend... 200 potency and some mana for 60 second recast seems low.
Delirium seems to be a knock off Inner release.
Living Shadow doesn't seem to have any gameplay interaction.
They are saying the same things as we are. -
06-13-2019, 01:34 AMWhyAmIHereHonestly what they could do with Delirium, if they really wanted to make it feel satisfying, is to treat it as a second burst phase. Make Delirium a version that combines WAR's Inner Release, and also Infuriate. Give it the ability that any blood expending action used while under the effect of Delirium reduces the recast of Blood Weapon.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Or treat it as an opposite of Upheaval, where attacks used while under its effect gain a bonus potency scaling with missing HP.
I recognize the former would be ridiculously overpowered. But if they want to make Delirium feel rewarding to play, then MAKE IT REWARDING. Just being able to use BS/Q freely for 5 GCDs is not rewarding. IR guarantees direct / crits for any actions used while under it's effect; the act of having no gauge cost on beast gauge using abilities is not a reward in this case. Surely someone can come up with a DRK aesthetic fitting mechanic that can be applied to Delirium. -
06-13-2019, 01:57 AMChrono_Rising
GIven the new job actions and direction, what I would have liked to see delirium is something like a fury or Omnislash type attack.
Delirium - Effect: Each attack delivered while under the effect of delirium increases speed by 10% and increases damage delivered to enemy by 5%. Duration: 12 seconds. -
06-13-2019, 02:11 AMwhiskeybravoDelirium:Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
Duration 10 Second
Cooldown 90 seconds
While under the effect of Delirium, HP is continuously sacrificed to double the potency of each ability used under it's effect.
Additional Effect: 100% of damage dealt is restored as HP
Additional Effect: Resources consumed by abilities are restored upon execution.
The series long tale of DRK is a HP sacrificing job. Obviously having a tank sacrifice it's HP in this game is problematic, about the only way it could be resolved is either invulnerability to prevent killing yourself, or massively OP HP regen so you recover more HP than you'd lose. In the above example I'm thinking something like each time you performed an action it would drain a bit of HP but also restore it based on the damage dealt - so hopefully it would end up being OK since obviously you're going to use to boost your hardest hitting abilities (and thus highest return heals).
It also give DRK some more sustain and acts like a secondary defensive moment, if the DRK can heal itself more than enough during that window it gives healers a bit of breathing room. Or there could be a situation where burst window lines up with Living Dead use.
IDK, seems at least a tad more interesting lol -
06-13-2019, 02:15 AMFourbestintoner
Yoshi in hw
Drk is a veteran tank, a tank that require skilled players.
Yoshi in sb
Drk was too hard for shit players, so now darkside will no longer drain your mp, you will have no dot to maintain beside salted earth and half of your abilities were remade into crossclasses and remade worse, good bye good animations you liked.
Yoshi in shb
We heard your didn't like sb drk so we ruined even more abilities, but we finally removed the dark arts spam you didn't like, replacing it with a proc you can only do every 30s, also enjoy not-inner release and spamming nothing but 2.50gcds souleater for 80s until you can bunga bloodspiller, we could have made scourge come back as a gcd like goring to make the job slightly more interesting, but we didn't, we love souleater shit animation too much! You finally got a raid shield though be happy.
Also Yoshi
Here's gunbreaker, our newest veteran tank, a high skill tank for the high skilled players. -
06-13-2019, 04:14 AMSatarnWhat the- wha- oh my god, please tell me you're joking. SB Delirium is an important part of DRK's kit, it increases your Blood Weapon uptime by a lot and should be used as much as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVSS
Blood gauge was actually implemented very well - it interacted with MP through TBN and Delirium, both in single target and AoE. Having to keep an eye on both resources and having synergy between them was part of the design and it worked great. Removal of HW skills had nothing to do with implementation of blood gauge. They all had their clear problems and SE simply chose to remove rather than rework them. It was a bad decision imo, but again, nothing to do with the gauge.
That's not an "issue" it's part of fun and identity of the job. It made DRK active and flexible. Who cares that WAR's timed burst is better for dps in most encounters(given you actually have right raid buffs timed with that burst)- it's WAR's thing to do more damage, buffing DRK could've been working more on it's already stronger self mitigation and adding utility. There's no way SE will let WAR not be ahead in damage anyways, we've already seen it in SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
No. Just don't try to make DRK play more like WAR and let it be it's own job, how about that? If somebody wants to play a timed burst job, they know where to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Delirium did indeed feel somewhat "flat" at first, but ultimately it plays part in MP and blood management and does it's job. There was no need to "fix" it. Not everything needs to be a flashy, huge burst button - that'd be boring. -
06-13-2019, 04:22 AMWhyAmIHereSome of the only issues with the blood gauge was that it was acquired so late (62), the first skill you got with it only worked every 120s (now 80s), the first useable skill you got from it was an AoE skill (which is no longer the case in ShB, and also had to have MP theft added to it early on to offset how SE nerfed DRK's mana economy in 4.0 (which they're removing in 5.0 because reasons)), and TBN came so late, upending the whole "sit on your blood gauge" conditioning 62-69 reinforced (less so once you obtained BS, but still).Quote:
Originally Posted by Satarn
It was clunkily implemented, but at least it had impact, unlike lilies. -
06-13-2019, 04:39 AMwhiskeybravoCalm down now. All I was saying was that if they were going to copy it, at least change it enough to where it's not literally the exact same wordage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satarn
Besides, you got exactly what you didn't want anyways. Direct the anger elsewhere.
Aside from that, thematically DRK has always sacrificed something of it's own to increase it's power. So it's actually more fitting for it to have burst rather than sustained damage. Having a burst doesn't mean it's a Warrior clone - or that would make virtually every job with a burst phase a Warrior clone. Think about what you are saying for a second. "Not everything needs to be a flashy, huge burst button" we aren't talking about EVERYTHING - we are talking about 1 button, you know, the one button that's supposed to make you feel like an awesome DRK lol. -
06-13-2019, 04:41 AMSatarnI wouldn't say that warrants calling it "clunky", but the skill order was indeed crap. Imo it should've been TBN > Bloodspiller(+Blackblood Trait) > Quietus > Delirium and screw people saying "well it's kinda underwhelming for the max lvl skill" - it literally doesn't matter. Ultimately it has no bearing on how the job plays at endame however so eeeeh, whatever. Tbh the game could really use a skill level reshuffle in general - mostly to make the early levels less boring.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
Just practicing to play WAR again, since I apparently have no choice now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Yeah, but changing the wording or making it "cosmetically" not the same, doesn't solve anything at all. It's a useless suggestion that shifts attention from the real issue, like many others... Many which SE apparently took.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
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06-13-2019, 12:52 PMInuk9Ok, dude. lulQuote:
Originally Posted by Satarn
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06-14-2019, 12:13 AMChrono_Rising
To any dark knights still reading this post, why do you play dark knight and what game play style brought you to this job?
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06-14-2019, 12:17 AMHierroSpeed and the rewarding feeling of impressing others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
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06-14-2019, 12:27 AMAwfulHonestly it was HW Drk that brought me to main it since I loved how fast and complex it was. Now its lost alot and I switched to War pretty much this whole xpac minus a few fights here and there in Alphascape because I was bored of War. Now going into ShB I'm sadly going GNB because the Drk rework just...isnt enough so im playing a fast paced tank that's worth my time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
Also glad to see you posting again thanks so much for your efforts in these "Drk" times always love your feedback. -
06-14-2019, 12:48 AMWhyAmIHereSpeed of gameplay and a technical skill ceiling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
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06-14-2019, 01:16 AMReinhardt_AzureheimSpeed, subtle complexity, high APM. Sure, DA was slightly overbearing for the common player, but the brakes they throw in with Shadowbringers (BW speed removal, higher MP + probably lower resource gain, and making Delirium IR Lite) are taking away a lot of reasons away why I liked DRK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
Might go back to PLD or WAR... -
06-14-2019, 01:36 AMshao32Complexity and high APM, I love DRK for his busy gameplay and his decision making mid combat having a unique gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
Other thing I love DRK is didn't have to spam the same GCD and how dinamic was the control of the MP, in resume I did love DRK bcs was a hard job with a rewarding feeling of manage properly his complexity and sadly all of that it's gone -
06-14-2019, 01:36 AMSailysium
Aesthetic, resource management, heavensward skill ceiling
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06-14-2019, 02:09 AMDaneloI enjoyed the payoff for playing a complex job well. The last expansion and now the upcoming one seem to have thrown in some risk but completely left out the reward. Bring back the complexity, bring back the high skill ceiling, bring back the massive massive reward for playing it well. Dump magic tank theme - it's just a gimp at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising