As a controller player, it's easier (for me) to ignore it. Yes I can press R1 to swap my hotbars or select a specific one, but it's not a comfortable thing for me to do. Hoping we get a reduced skill bloat so I can fit that Diversion in somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
Add ilv requirement please in ShB[Dev Request]
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03-21-2019, 10:09 PMGula
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03-22-2019, 12:24 AM347SPECTREControler can have up to 40 buttons without switching hotbars using L+R and both wCross hotbars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gula
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03-22-2019, 12:36 AMJBeeIf you can't be bothered to use Diversion (or any agro management tools) when needed, then don't be surprised if the healer can't be bothered to heal you or the tank can't be bothered to Provoke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gula
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03-22-2019, 01:32 AMYshal"Yikes"Quote:
Originally Posted by Crushnight
If anyone is joining with gear that low compared to the dungeon, I feel like they should be reported for trolling. Lol, just wow. -
03-22-2019, 01:50 AMlinayYour solution for someone who can't be bothered to use one ability...is to give them an excuse to not use any ability by letting them die and stay dead...that'll teach them.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBee
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03-22-2019, 01:52 AMCrushnightSadly wasn't trolling just someone who thought they get something lower level and wasn't prepared for Sirensong they dodged and played fine as fine as you could in that low gear, thankfully so did the other dps and tank so i didn't have to worry too much and could focus on that person more, but if i were a whm they would've died to the unavoidable aoes on the bosses and it was just unnecessary stress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yshal
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03-22-2019, 02:37 AMLiam_HarperIn this case the new tank should go tank stance and use only emnity combo's. They have no need to do otherwise when the party is full of 370+'s and has dps in buckets. This even makes the new tanks life easier, they're more durable and can just 1, 2, 3 to victory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Driskus
Tanks have the tools to generate absolutely ridiculous amounts of emnity if they want to. -
03-22-2019, 02:40 AMEli85
This sub-discussion of Diversion is silly. It really isn't an essential action at all. For if a DPS feels compelled to use it, it is almost always because they are playing with a subpar tanks. When tanks are playing properly, Diversion is completely unneeded.
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03-22-2019, 02:43 AMHyoMinParkThat's incorrect. Unless you're referring to a tank who sits in tank stance and spams their aggro combo and nothing else. But then that's not proper play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli85
DPS should always use their enmity tools. They are free, and there's no reason not to use them. The only ones who have a half-excuse are BRD/MCH... but at optimal levels, you have specific timings for Refresh that coincide with reducing your aggro after bursts; and people shouldn't be dying, so Tactician is really a freebie. If a tank or melee do die, it's a good thing all melee have Invigorate/Goad to use!
Controller users can have 32 buttons with the extended cross feature, plus an additional 16 if you want to use the W-cross bar. As a fellow controller user, I have zero issues with finding places for my buttons with these features. Especially since I prioritize things like the role skills based on the frequency I would need them. Diversion is a high-frequency skill, so I place it in an easy-to-access place. Lesser used actions are more off to the side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gula
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03-22-2019, 02:48 AMMiminming
People supposed to run the dungeon to get the gear, so mostly will have a little lower gear than the dungeon...
Healer just get used to heal over geared tank too much that they think anything bellow that is undergeared -
03-22-2019, 02:50 AMDark_Lord_Kuro
Ok but they need ti give the revelent gear in the msq or some side quest of the assosiated town/village a t that point of the msq so people who just want to do quest can
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03-22-2019, 02:50 AMHyoMinParkWhy are people wearing i200 in a dungeon that drops i260 where there are myriads of other gear options between level 60 and level 61? A person in Sirensong wearing i200 gear or gear from 2 expansions ago is undergeared. No ifs, ands, or buts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miminming
I feel like you missed the point of the thread. We aren't talking about "a couple pieces here and there" or "maybe a couple item levels below what they should be for the dungeon" - we are talking about people coming into dungeons still wearing gear from ARR.
The game already does this - MSQ and sidequests from HW onwards drop level appropriate gear, including weapons. Only thing they could do was place gear coffers in the MSQ directly and remove the extraneous pieces from sidequests, since people either ignore sidequests or save them for alt jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Lord_Kuro
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03-22-2019, 02:52 AMlinay
On dungeon bosses, usually one diversion at the beginning of the fight should be enough to carry you until the end of the boss fight. Regular enemies usually don't need diversion unless tank is undergeared compared to DPS and or if DPS is single targeting one enemy that the tank isn't giving enough attention.
And it's OGCD, and all role actions can be used now, plus it has a nice animation, so just use it.On recent occasions, I've asked my fellow BRD/MCH to please give me that, but they refuse. (I know TP is going away, but we still have 3 months!)Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
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03-22-2019, 02:58 AMHyoMinParkIs this on a melee DPS or tank? Melee DPS have Invigorate, so you should use that first in the event the BRD/MCH had to use Tactician for an aggro dump (MCH typically is fine with just Refresh, but a BRD bursts every 80 seconds and fairly heavily; so they may have had to use it to prevent themselves from ripping after a Minuet/RS window). I know SAM AOE is TP heavy, so they should use Tactician for AOE if you have already used Invigorate and it's still on CD.Quote:
Originally Posted by linay
On tanks, the only one that should have issues is PLD. In which case, they need Goad/Tactician. DRK AOE is MP related, and WARs can Equilibrium in Deliverance for a free 200 TP every 60secs. Baby, but unless you're spamming Overpower non-stop and not trying to build for Decimates, you shouldn't have too many issues with TP.
But keep in mind I'm referring to optimal play against single targets. The only TP issues you should have on a single target is a death... in which case, there should be Invigorate available upon Raise, or hopefully another melee with Goad. -
03-22-2019, 03:06 AMlinayOn my SAM, I would use invigorate, but from time to time, especially on bigger pulls, that 400 extra TP will run out quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
I would use goad when the PLD ask for it because I'm bad at paying attention to others (another reason I don't do healing well). -
03-22-2019, 03:10 AMCrushnighta little is not the issue we talking about here it's the fact anyone can enter these leveling dungeons too undergeared these dungeons were designed with a minimum ilv in mind yet it is not enforced within the game when it should be and this is what this request is aboutQuote:
Originally Posted by Miminming
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03-22-2019, 03:18 AMKurokaNo. You are supposed to work for your stuff and put effort, the game is not about gettin free loot. Tbh i wished quests would never give gear or just one catch up set on release.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Lord_Kuro
We dont get free gear during endgame stuff either, so why should it be any different during leveling?
I believe its part of the problem ppl use way outdated gear, the game teaches it way too late... -
03-22-2019, 03:27 AMGulaOr the tank could, you know- not lose aggro.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBee
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03-22-2019, 03:30 AMJBee
I've been strongly in favor of minimum ilvl requirements for all dungeons for a long time. Don't make them too strict - shouldn't be required to be overgeared to run something, but should be able to positively contribute to the run.
A lot of people use the Deep Dungeons to level their DPS jobs now - it's brainless, repetitive, and something you can fill 15-20 minutes with... and you don't have to spend gil or time gearing your jobs up through the process. Run PotD until 60, get poetics gear at 60, run a couple roulettes until 61, and then back into HoH you go...where gear still doesn't matter. But sometimes, the DDs get to be a little much and people want to sprinkle in some roulettes. Or maybe they had no intention of taking "Job Alt #7: into a dungeon at all and a friend was leveling their tank or healer and asked them to join... well sure, I have this job close in level.... And bam. You're in a dungeon woefully undergeared. There was no laziness or ill intent involved - just something that never came up until it did, and it was too late.
Or you could do like I did myself - gear up at 60 in Augmented Shire on your next to lass job to cap out, into HoH you go, mixed in with MSQ Roulette, and you had no intention of stepping foot in content where your ilvl was so low that it could be argued you "didn't belong" there. And when you get to level 69 you're just trying to finish it out before the end of the night so you jump in a trial roulette for a hit of exp - and oops, Lakshmi.
But if there had been a minimum ilvl for Emanation, it wouldn't have stuck an i270 in a level 67 trial.
Additionally, to expand on what I was meaning earlier on Diversion... If you have an overgeared high dps player going against a newer tank (maybe undergeared, maybe not), that tank is going to have to put some effort into holding agro. Not just one different button here and there but likely it will mess up their whole rhythm, which is pretty frustrating for anyone in any role. If I am on RDM and the DRK pulls the boss - and I immediately hit my melee combo, Embolden, VerFlare, Contre Sixte, and Fleche.... of course I am taking agro. If any high burst dps throws the kitchen sink at the boss right out the gate it's going to work the same way. It's not hard to hit Diversion before the fight even starts to try to take some edge off of that. Or learn some of your skills - and maybe toss in a Lucid Dreaming to lower your agro, since you wont be needing mana for a while anyway.
I've had the conversation with many players - players who think that enmity is only the tank's job when that is absolutely false. Enmity is a group effort. Problems happen when 1) the Non-Tanks refuse to use their abilities to manage their agro when necessary and 2) the Tank is unable to keep agro, regardless of reason (skill, gear, competence, etc). And a sorely undergeared Tank will struggle to keep agro off the overgeared dps, most of the time... Which leads to smaller pulls... Which leads to antsy dps/healer.... Which leads to just a bad time overall. -
03-22-2019, 04:01 AMKaliseOr the DPS could, you know- not gain aggro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gula
Same logic.
Optimal play is everyone pushing out maximum DPS. This includes the Tanks.
As such, for Tanks to push out optimal DPS, they have to minimize Enmity gain, because enmity gain tools are net DPS losses in most cases.
Thus, the use of enmity reduction tools from DPS and Healers becomes very important. As this facilitates the Tank to need to produce less Enmity and thus focus more on DPS.
Advocating for inoptimal play is a terrible suggestion. -
03-22-2019, 04:13 AMGulaI think I made it clear it's what I do, not what people should do. If not, whoops. People seem to be highly over hyping the difficulty of a dungeon. 1 loss of aggro does not end a run. Bloodbath for melee makes sure of it as long as it's not 3-4 mobs chomping at them, which is very unlikely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
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03-22-2019, 04:15 AMRosa_FrandliaThat is hard when the tank is ilvl 7 still and not rolling on the gear drops in the dungeon. I've had that twice this past week, one didn't even use flash to get any aggro and the other left the dungeon before even opening the final chest. This was in low level dungeons where I as healer had more HP than the tank, one where due to that I even tanked the bosses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
Even a minimum ilvl in Stasha would help when as a sch you need to spam physick as eos can't keep up in healing and eos is at 1/3rd health due to grabbing aggro. -
03-22-2019, 04:27 AMIlanUse diversion. You are making your teammates life harder for your QoL!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gula
Please stop talking if you don't have any idea what you are talking about. A dps needs diversion in order to dps properly without making the tanks life miserable, yes physical ranged classes should have that too. A tank that plays properly will drop tankstance and you will draw aggro and thats not because you are pumping out the big dick dps but because you play wrong. How ignorant can a person be to make things harder for others just because this person can't be bothered to hit 1 single button? If i would be your tank i would shirk you every time until you learn how to use diversion and lucid dreaming properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli85
Emnity controll is a team effort and not only the tanks job. SE should really start to teach that to players... -
03-22-2019, 04:32 AMAnselmet
I honestly don't understand why there isn't SOME ilvl requirements in dungeons. I'm not even asking for strict ilvls here just some. I should not have to heal the Vault when the tank has ilvl 115. If the ilvl was even 125 or 130 for both the Vault the Grubal Library that would work wonders over the monsters I've seen.
Has there ever been an official why as to why we don't have this? We have been asking for ages and its sorta common sense to alleviate this type of pain from the community. -
03-22-2019, 04:33 AMHyoMinParkNo, but bad habits carry over into the content where it would most definitely matter. Use your toolkit. Everyone else is expected to. ‘Controller space’ or ‘This is easy content eks dee’ is an inadequate excuse to not use your kit. Take it from a BRD main who would love to have her Quelling Strikes back...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gula
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03-22-2019, 04:33 AMKDSilverThat's pretty much the problem you and people who liked your comment don't understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yshal
We're talking about people who can't even handle small pulls, precisely some healers or tanks because since there's no ilvl requirement, some have a so low one that the wipefest happen anyway.
I didn't even mention people dying from undodgable aoe from bosses. And this is when mecanics are done correctly.
It shouldn't be possible for them to queue for the duty with these low gear. -
03-22-2019, 04:39 AMKDSilver
When you can't even cast one Cure II or Regen and have every mobs on you, even by Lucid dreaming but you are forced to heal yourself like crazy or you'll die anyway and you'll have aggro whatever you do as a healer because tanks gears are so low it'll be impossible for him to keep mobs on him, yes there's a tiny prob.
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03-22-2019, 04:43 AMAnselmetExcuse me ma'am, but I play the class that has the longest opener and guess what half of my skills, including diversion, are not chotbar 1 and I STILL use diversion. Its not that hard and I use a controller as well. It is not even uncomfortable to do what you suggested and that is why people are at you. And this excuse that that dungeons are not that hard? Have you ever healed castrum before? No seriously have you? Or hell, how about the Burn when it was new? Because I can tell you right now if a tank pulls two mobs and some dipshit dps pulls a mob off the tank they aren't just getting itty bitty hurt. You're health is getting mowed down just as hard as the tank with the multiple mobs. You're mentality is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gula
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03-22-2019, 05:10 AMGulaCalm down. Text doesn't carry tone too well but you seem awfully worked up. My mentality isn't wrong, because it works and it will continue to work. I'm sorry that me not using 1 button upsets you. But hey, my gear is fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anselmet
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03-22-2019, 05:10 AMAwfulDoesn't matter if it's difficult or not you should get into the habits of using your full toolkit if you have it why not use it? It's not gonna hurt your DPS or anything and if the tank is bad guess what? Threat is smoothed out and distributed easier than someone lolbursting and the tank losing threat it's not that hard to understand. I was in a dungeon where the tank would swap out to DPS which is great, both me and the DPS pop Diversion so that he can go ham and Fel Cleave, now I was a RDM other DPS was BRD if we didn't do that then we're not doing our jobs DPS which means the tank has to work harder for threat which is a DPS loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gula
And this is the cost of 1 button, 1 measly CD that you have to press and never have to worry about it again this isn't "Savage/Ultimate" levels of play this is literally understanding that "hey we can do more DPS if we use Diversion because we can all DPS!, so I don't agree with your PoV. -
03-22-2019, 05:27 AMAnselmetWorked up? No. Making fun of how you really don't know what you're talking about? Yes. And I was not talking about gear, mate. You, a monk, will cause grief for the healer in pulls because you do not have the health nor the defense of a tank and one monster can/will hurt you enough that they will have to stop focusing on the tank (who is number priority here) to heal you. And you complain that switching hotbars is too tough, try micro managing a tank that is taking massive damage and dumb dps that won't use one cd to help the party 'bc its too hard'. If you still think that attitude is okay then I have no words for you. That is selfishness at its finest. It's one button. Map it out and push it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gula
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03-22-2019, 05:41 AMMesarthim
If people are running out of space on their controller configurations then they are doing something wrong or haven't fully learned how to set up hotkeys. I am also a controller user and I have easy access to:
Hotbar 1, the primary hotbar.
Hotbar 2, for infrequent things like summoning, protect, chocobo, etc. Manually access by a single R1 tap (second R1 tap swaps back to 1). Also has misc things like 1,2,3,4 markers.
Hotbar 3: I Access by holding both R2 and L2 for easy immediate access to another 8 buttons, and can be set up for an additional 8 depending on which trigger you held down first (R2+L2 or L2+R2)
Hotbar 4: I set up for access by double tapping L2 or R2 to access this. That's another 16 buttons right there.
So 16+16+16+8+8. That's up to 64 easily accessed buttons. If I can fit everything necessary for a paladin, you can fit everything on a dps.
Also put a minimum ilvl for leveling dungeons. I've also fallen victim to people's lack of gear knowledge or intentional negligence. -
03-22-2019, 05:46 AMKaliseWell, the fact remains, that this is a thread a bout minimum item level requirements.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gula
Where people are trying to advocate for the adding of minimum item level requirements for leveling dungeons to help ensure that their parties aren't bad.
Coming in and saying "Yeah, I just make things harder for Tanks and Healers because I can't be bothered to use a single button that is oGCD and generally just needs to be pressed once at the start of a fight" is generally not going to go down well.
Since, a side tangent for this thread has been about teaching people how to play their job. This includes, DPS and Healers using their enmity reductions. Since not doing so, causes DPS losses (From the tank having to stay in Defensive Stance and use Enmity combos to even healers having to spot heal the dumb DPS that keeps ripping aggro because they're doing stupid burst on the wrong target(s) before the Tank has set up a comfortable Enmity cushion) and is akin to having a DPS enter a duty while undergeared, where they become a liability and worth less DPS than they would had they been adequately prepared for the content.
Honestly, the game really could do with focusing more on getting people to actually learn to play. Learning to gear up, even while leveling. Learning how to play their class. Learning to use things like Diversion to enable other roles to be able to play properly.
Maybe you can argue "Hurr durr, it's only Sastasha no-one cares" or something, but in reality, it's a mind set thing. If people don't learn what to do while leveling up, what happens when they then have to participate in the actually challenging high level content? Places like The Burn and Ghimlyt Dark are examples of dungeons that were fairly challenging on release and are required for MSQ progression (So can't be hand waved off as "Optional Content" designed for more hardcore players like Savage Raids)
If people go through levels 1-79 not caring about playing properly or having gear, then it affects level 80 content because these people who never learned to play or gear up end up in the more meaningful content still unable to play. To say nothing about how it also requires duties to be designed to be absolutely faceroll so you have new Dungeons with difficulty lower than Sastasha (Which is actually the case in some dungeons given that Sastasha has artifiicial difficulty of few jobs having AoE's at that level so mass pulls are more dangerous) -
03-22-2019, 07:01 AMLalaRuAre we talking of DF, right? right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
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03-22-2019, 08:21 AMIlanYour mentality is very wrong. You make your party members work harder because you are lazy af. I honestly hope that tanks will call you out or shirk you until you stop making their lifes miserable just because you can't be bothered to press one damn button.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gula
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03-22-2019, 08:54 AMWolwosh
The other day I got a tank as a healer with a lot of Shisui pieces(63) in the Ala Mhigo dungeon. The least you could do is finish your job quest and get the free relic gear
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03-22-2019, 09:21 AMLiam_HarperGenius idea for you to solve your hotbar problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gula
Take Bloodbath off it, put Diversion on instead. You simultanously contribute to your group and don't need Bloodbath anymore (which is a fairly neglible heal anyway). No need to thank me. -
03-22-2019, 12:55 PMEli85Not incorrect at all. Enmity reducers in this game, honestly, are just a crutch for poor tank play. Even when the highest DPSers are going all out (and does not use Enmity reducers), and they pull aggro, something went wrong with the tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
Ah, yes, how wonderful these counter-arguments are: accusing me of not knowing what I'm talking about and heavily implying I'm ignorant. Wonderful. No, I know what I'm talking about. Enmity reducers are a crutch. If you can't handle DPSers that don't use Diversion, you may want to re-think tanking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilan
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03-22-2019, 01:45 PMAnselmetThat's hot crock of bs. A drg, due to how much our class produces agro, can easily pull any boss off of good tanks with our openers. This is the same across many classes. Some of us have learned by have a boss eat our faces off to click one measly button to prevent this issue. And even then if its a mob of monsters how hard is it to press a button? Agro isn't proof of dps prowess that's for sure, let alone a tanks ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli85
Like I cannot understand your peoples argument. Its an instant skill that you can press before a pull. Seems to me you just wanna be lazy and point fingers at the tank instead of reflecting. -
03-22-2019, 03:35 PMBanriikku
@Eli85 No Diversion ? Why ? Dead DPS/Healer dont do anything ... whats the benefit ? Or do you think tanks should not DPS and healers should only heal then ? Please no....
And yes please - we need a ilvl requirement for ALL dungeons. Nothing harsh but something that tells you "nope take that bikini off and wear some proper gear!"