I wish Gunbreaker would be a DPS class.

I have to agree with some others in this thread, I think a lot of the issues people are having can really be boiled down to tank anxiety. My only issue with tanking is that currently, you have one whole combo (aggro combo) that is functionally useless and it makes tanks a little more dull to play compared to more fleshed out dps. One big hope for this expansion is that they add something to make that combo worth using sometimes, but that's another issue.

I'm sure being a GUNChad will be fun, try it!

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Originally Posted by SigmaOZ

The problem is Gunbreaker works better as a DPS and it looks rather weak as a Tank, why!?...


The weapon, Gunblades are probably the smallest arms amongst tanks and it doesn't look like it could protect the person wielding it from taking much damage, there's no defense for it, I'm sure SE won't change their plans at this point but at least they could make Gunbreakers have the strongest DPS of all tanks, that way it would make more sense sacrificing defense for offense!...

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Rather than parrying or blocking, they probably rely on magitek or aetherochemistry via ceruleum manipulation to bolster their resistance to damage.

Or perhaps they maintain debuffs on the target to reduce damage they take but doesn't affect damage others take. Think like Blue Mage's Offguard but for reducing damage taken instead of damage dealt.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I don't know. Maybe my limited brain just can connect the dots. I only see a need for one Tank in the game and that's PLD. Maybe that's because that's the only one that FEELS like a tank to me. WAR and DRK just feel like nerfed DPS with enmity on a few of their moves. But! I love FF8 (baring a few of the mechanics in that game) and Squall and his Gunblade so... I'm going to try and main Gunbreaker in ShB. If I get to bored I'll go back to SAM for a while.

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I dunno, I always thought it was pointless to have DPS that did more than just stab the boss 100 times. That's all it really takes.

But, you know. As long as you have options, that's all that really matters, right?

Gunblade has always been a tank. Everybody in ff8 who had a gunblade was a protector of a sorceress.

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Originally Posted by SigmaOZ

The problem is Gunbreaker works better as a DPS and it looks rather weak as a Tank, why!?...


The weapon, Gunblades are probably the smallest arms amongst tanks and it doesn't look like it could protect the person wielding it from taking much damage, there's no defense for it, I'm sure SE won't change their plans at this point but at least they could make Gunbreakers have the strongest DPS of all tanks, that way it would make more sense sacrificing defense for offense!...

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Both Warrior and Dark Knight discuss this exact thing in their quests. Warrior is all about being such a ferocious target and sturdy meat wall that they can't ignore you, thus protecting your teammates by ensuring that you're the focus of the enemy.
Dark Knight was more of a "protect the weak by killing the bullies" and thus was all about using scary/powerful magic and unique sword techniques to basically blow up the bad man before it even touches your friends.

Obviously in-game it's just their skills give enmity but the flavor doesn't have to be overtly protecting your friends in a very direct fashion, it can be a lot of things from holding the enemies attention, blowing them up so they don't hit your friends, maybe using weapons and techniques so flashy enemies are 'entranced' by you? There's a lot of wiggle room there.

And in terms of protecting the user, we saw the trailer, using technology to bolster your defensive capabilities. AKA: bullets can have any kind of magic in them, they don't have to be filled with exploding goodness. Honestly Gunbreaker fits just as much, if not a little bit more than Warriors do as tanks.

As someone who likes to tank, I'm glad we're getting a new tank.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

Tanks and Healers don't really add anything to the party complexity. Tanks are just, "let me keep aggro off the dps / healers." Healers are just, "let me keep the tank / party alive." While the DPS need to synergize with one another. Granted that in this game DPS synergy doesn't go beyond lowering slashing, blunt and piercing resistance and trick attack half the time. But still if you have a DRG in your party you want a BRD and MCH. Or one or the other. Got a lot of mages in your party? Use your Trabodur on Mages Balled instead of Army's Peon.

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"Don't really add anything to the party complexity?"
Well then, guys, go home. We only need one of every role. Don't like Black Mage? Tough, anything else doesn't really add much to the complexity of being a caster.
What do you mean you like Samurai? It's basically just a Dragoon with some Asian sprinkles! Just play Dragoon you goof!
Huh? Machinist? You mean not bard?
You like the concept of preventative healing over reactionary healing? Sounds like loser talk to me, Buster. Get that variety out of my face and go play White Mage.
Wait, so you mean to tell me that you don't like the flavor, playstyle, and general mechanics of Paladin and prefer the Warrior? Just play a DPS if you want mechanics, you silly bozo!

It turns out, people who play tanks actually want variety? I'm sure you'd be a bit upset if you weren't allowed to play Samurai and just told to play Dragoon or Monk instead because it didn't 'add anything to party complexity.'

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

(...)but I'll also be frank and say that I don't believe the development team "fixed" the issues with tanking and healing in 4.x as they promised they would(...)

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Of course they didn't. That was a stupid argument anyway. Tanks and healers are more balanced than DPS in the first place. They're just a bit more important in higher tier content (their death is more likely to cause a wipe fast even outside of DPS checks, hence why Red Mage and Summoner even have revival and Vercure to permit ANY recovery) so healer and tank players that suck are going to bet booted a lot faster. And certain classes (hint, Dark Knights) are harder to play well and more popular among the "Wow, it's so cool!" players. So you're just more likely to come across an unskilled player from those jobs.

As for the whole concept of balancing a role for two years until next expansion...it's just plain foolish. "Yay, we balanced these classes in these last two years to nigh perfection! Just in time to release the next level cap in a week, cut the skills out and pretty much redo ALL of the classes from scratch!". So yeah. It's working two years towards something that is made completely obsolete at the end of that two-year duration. Sisyphean labours anyone?! That's exactly what "focusing on balancing the role" is in a game that needs to redo its classes every expansion due to level cap change.

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Originally Posted by Rosalynd

First they make DRK a tank, a job that should for all intents and purposes be a DPS

Then they make SAM a DPS, a job that should have been a tank.

And now we repeat the same mistake as DRK with GUN, a job that should be DPS turned in to a tank.

3/3 disappointments for me so far. All i want to do is kill things very effectively with a real sword.

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DRK was perfectly viable as a tank the only thing really missing from its kit from previous games were self destructive skills that boosted their offensive output. Baseline stat wise their vitality and available armor were comparable to a tank. Even in FFXI DRK was quite tanky before using skills to destroy their own defense rating or consume their own HP for damage output. A majority of DRK deaths in FFXI were caused by players making poor decisions on when to use the self destructive skills in their kit.

SAM however I really don't get where you think it should have been a tank. Maybe you could explain it because that statement sounds absolutely ludicrous to me.

Gunbreaker shouldn't be tank. Maybe elaborate on reasoning for this as well as the characters in FF-8 where the weapon design originated that use it weren't glass cannon DPS. The lead character in the game essentially served as the meat shield taking a majority of the hits for the party.

I'm glad it's tank. Great decision!

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

As someone who has wanted a Gunblade job since the FFXI days, I was saddened when it was announced as Tank but not surprised since, you know, leaks. People in FFXI said it would never work in that game. Then Dissidia came out for the PSP and I really wanted a Gunblade DPS job just because Squall was so fun to play. But hey, at least we finally got a Gunblade job at all even if it is a tank. And hey, could be worse, it could have been a limited job...

FFXIV "may" have needed tanks and healers, (Odds are it wont make more people play tanks and healers, although I'm going to try to so maybe it will...) but did it "have" to be Gunbreaker? The Gunblade just screams DPS to me. But then again so does DRK so what do I know.

I'm curious. Why do we need new Tanks / Healers? Most of the time you can only have one tank / healer in a party at a time. 2 if you are doing trails / raids. Is it just to give the current tanks / healers something new to play before they go back to their old jobs cause they like them better? Is it to try and make new players play tanks / healers? I doubt THAT many will switch to make any significant change to the DF. Reason to have more DPS imo is because you have anywhere from 2 to 5 DPS in a party so it can be vary up the party quite a bit.

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You should probably consider that the tanks and healers in your parties, who carry you through content, are not AI or computers - They are living, breathing, in-the-flesh human beings. They like to get new things to play in a role they enjoy, too. Why should only DPS players get new classes while tanks and healers sit around with the same 3 classes forever? Just because you only like playing DPS, and you really want to play a gunblade class, doesn't mean gunblade should be DPS.

I'm glad it's a tank. Now, bring on a new healer and I'm happy.

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Originally Posted by Drakkaelus

Believe it or not, Tanks and Healers want to enjoy the game too. DPS players aren't the only ones who appreciate variety.

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The sad part is that you had to explain that to the person you're responding to. Proves how insanely self-centered some people can be.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Mathematical things.

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You completly missed my point. I wasn't talking about queue time. I simply don't want to see tanks/heals disabled from PF because they are not meta and considered weaker (like DRK some times ago).

I hope you didn't take too much time to write this, considering it doesn't apply in reality too...

Also, after watching Thancred fight with gunblade... It looks even less tank than before. I know it's a trailer, but the guy just dashed 2 times throught the mob while exploding and reloading. Meanwhile us players will stand in front of the mob, hitting 1-2-3 to get aggro and 1-4-5 to dps with a 2.5 gcd... Just joking, but yeah...

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Originally Posted by Skullhack

I simply don't want to see tanks/heals disabled from PF because they are not meta and considered weaker (like DRK some times ago).

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And what about DPS, do they not get disabled in PF for not being meta? because I'm pretty sure they do.

Alot of arguments come from the point of it being a detriment to other tanks/healers to add new ones, whether it be balance issues, a numbers game etc. however, they fail to realise the same arguments can be made against them being a dps as well. The DPS are not balanced as they are, there are jobs preferred over others, there are already a multitude of DPS, of which, going by dungeon ratio, they far outnumber the current tank/healer/dps ratios.

Going back to the start of SB, there were people both sides of the coin for wanting Samurai to be tank or DPS. Tanks wanted Samurai to be a tank as a new toy to use, others wanted it as a DPS as a new toy to use. In the end, it's a DPS, so the DPS side of the coin were happy. It's the same here. People wanted a Gunblade wielding job to be a tank, others a DPS, this time however, the coin flipped to the tank side, so now us tanks are happy.

The people saying it should be a DPS because 'I want it to be a DPS, the tanks already have stuff' well guess what, so do DPS. Weak argument.

At the end of the day, Tanks and Healers have not had a new job since HW and while I enjoy tanking, we still need new toys to play with, just just the DPS do. You had your new toys in SB, so now it's time for you to wait til 6.0 and see what gets released then (I am assuming the next Job to be revealed for ShB is going to be a healer).

There are DPS jobs that aren't "meta" either, meta and viability are different things. I don't buy it as an argument to not add tank and healer jobs. It's on them to balance them properly. They shouldn't get a free pass to not add tank and healer jobs, two roles that haven't gotten a new addition since HW which was released in 2015 just because they can't balance them.

They aren't that great at balancing DPS jobs either tbh.

Honestly, looking at both trailers, I'll be absolutely shocked if Gunbreaker is a tank. It used a defensive cooldown once... Samurai did too. You need a lot more than that to convince me of it being a tank. And I personally don't see Gunblades being a "first line of defence" weapon anyway.

It works on Warrior and Dark Knight, because they use heavy weapons that can be used to parry effectively. Paladin don't have the same sort of leverage they do, but make up for it just by having a shield. Gunbreaker does not have that. Gunblades don't have leverage, and you don't have a freehand for a shield.

I'm far more certain it's going to be a DPS, and we're going to get announcements for other jobs that cover heal and tanking.

I wish it was a dps too because then I might be interested in it, but realistically it's definitely time for a new tank and healer.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

I'm far more certain it's going to be a DPS, and we're going to get announcements for other jobs that cover heal and tanking.

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It has already been officially confirmed as a Tank at the Paris Fanfest in the opening keynote.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

It has already been officially confirmed as a Tank at the Paris Fanfest in the opening keynote.

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Is that so? Well, colour me shocked.

It still makes no sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

There are DPS jobs that aren't "meta" either, meta and viability are different things. I don't buy it as an argument to not add tank and healer jobs. It's on them to balance them properly. They shouldn't get a free pass to not add tank and healer jobs, two roles that haven't gotten a new addition since HW which was released in 2015 just because they can't balance them.

They aren't that great at balancing DPS jobs either tbh.

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Yes, you are totally right, I was just pointing that it might be hard, harder than DPS balance, because there is different dps that cover the same "role" (BRD/MCH, SMN/BLM/RDM, melees). Here, all tanks cover the same "role", there is no "sub-role", so they have to make the 4 tanks as balanced as possible. But yeah, it's definitly not a reason to not add tank.

I'm still convinced that GUN as tank is an error. The smartest move to do was adding a magiteck hammer tank (Nero style) that deal blunt damage, add DNC as a melee healer with blunt damage too, make blunt debuff relevant for something else than MNK, then release GUN as dps, even in 6.0, imo.

no just NO we need more healer and tank classes we are overloaded with Dps classes we have 3 healer 3 tank and lots of dps the balance is way off i for one am happy with this being a tank job

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Originally Posted by MiniOmegaDragon

no just NO we need more healer and tank classes we are overloaded with Dps classes we have 3 healer 3 tank and lots of dps the balance is way off i for one am happy with this being a tank job

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Not that I disagree... just don't see Gunblade being a tank as a plausible choice.

Using Nero's Techno-hammer would have made more sense to me (although it wouldn't make MNK viable, since EVERYONE would complain until they got their own Blunt Resist Down debuff)

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Not that I disagree... just don't see Gunblade being a tank as a plausible choice.

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"Man with exploding weapon uses magitek to bolster his defenses" is really not much more crazy than "Man with ax literally too angry to die" or "Man with giant sword literally too emotional to die." Seems like it actually fits pretty well!

Eww, one of these childish "I like thing and don't wanna play a different way" topics.

Here's a hard pill to choke down ... Tanks need so advertising to. Can't just make all the cool jobs dps and leave tanks to have quirky stuff.

If you wanna play Gunbreaker then just play it. Always go ot and pretend you're a dps that can take some hits to the face. Even if you mt you'll probably have higher dps than at least one dps on tour team given how many of them don't know they rotations and low key get carried through fights.

To be honest, I'm mixed. While I want a new tank/healer, I didn't want Gunbreaker to be the new tank. I wanted a hammer tank I was hoping we'd get 3 classes. Gunbreaker melee dps, then 2 new classes, but it was a pipe dream and knew it was bound to happen since tanks get quite a lot of nice stuff. Personally,I didn't think it would mostly because it never had a presence as a tank in FF8 (then again, some people thought the same thing with DRK's and that they'd share the same gear with DRGs. sorta thought it would happen with gunbreaker as well).

I love gunblade themes and really wanted it to be a fun melee class I'd actually play and love the look for. I love sword based classes but not too huge on the Japanese theme/aspect that samurai and ninja have to offer. I knew that tanks get all the really cool melee classes,especially aesthetically, so it wasn't a chance that melee dps would get it. I'm just hoping for some large dual sword type class for melee dps now.

Personally, I just never liked how tanks played or how they build them/their focus, oh well, wont stop me from trying it out and seeing if I like it. Who knows, maybe I'll be a tank in Shb. The only classes I've been looking forward to since ARR was RDM, Mystic knight(spellblade), Gunblade, and BLU. So, I can't complain too much since I mean.. at least RDM is something I'd play. "At least it isn't a limited job" either.... rip my hype to play BLU.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

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Honestly, any Job can become a Tank or Healer with the right animation design of choice.

Heck, they can make the next Tank job "Gunner" with the theme being like a Modern day army soldier using a Shotgun for close range and using "magic shotgun shells" and still get away with it.

Or maybe have Blackbelt be the next Tank Job that use Gauntlets as their weapon with the mechanic for this job being about Counter attacking.

Time Mage will be a interesting Healer because it can focus on "reversing time" to reverse injuries.

Maybe Seer being the Mage Tank that focus on a Stance that increase their Defense by 500% defense and Magic Defense from their Mage Tank gear (new set of Tank gear for Mage Tanks) since they can't use Plate armor but magic barriers that amplify their cloth armor to be just as hard as Plate gears.

All it takes is imagination to make this all possible but the question is, how far are people willing to let SE go with the design until it is a bit too much.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

It works on Warrior and Dark Knight, because they use heavy weapons that can be used to parry effectively.

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I'm afraid you have no idea what parrying is. In reality, the smaller gunblade is far superior weapon to parry with than the the Dark Knights greatsword or the Warriors greataxe.

Parrying is an act of deflecting the attack to the side. It does not require a lot of power. It requires speed and precision. That's why SMALL weapons are used for parrying. Ever heard of parrying dagger?!

Large weapons are better for BLOCKING, but weapons shouldn't be used to block in the first place. That's a last resort maneuver because it can result in the weapon being damaged and made unusable.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I won't deny that a new tank and healer job feel somewhat "overdue" for the new expac, but I'll also be frank and say that I don't believe the development team "fixed" the issues with tanking and healing in 4.x as they promised they would and I'm not optimistic that either new job will have unique gameplay relative to their role and that power levels will be toned down to the point where they're not just "really sturdy DPS" or "DPS with absurd group heals".

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What issues exist that should prevent the devs from releasing a new tank and healer? And do you honestly think the tank and healer communities want to go another two years without new jobs to learn and play for the sake of the hanging carrot known as "balance"?

Both WHM and DRK have their own issues on top of balance related ones. Both are looking up from the shadows casted by the other two jobs in their respective roles. So why are so many players still choosing these jobs instead of the meta favored to run content? You don't have to answer that because I am sure the reasons among WHM and DRK mains will vary, but one thing we can deductively conclude is that they enjoy playing those jobs. And we can accurately come to that conclusion because these two jobs are played despite being at the bottom of the totem pole AND having mechanical issues with how they're played.

The state of the meta cannot, and should not determine whether or not new jobs are released. If this was the case, we'd never get any new jobs, or an existing job with a different acronym. Content and lore is also created around new jobs, and continuously feeding this to the DPS role will eventually starve tanks and healers. We're already famished to be quite honest with you.

Do we need to be logical in a game with fantasy in the name

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Originally Posted by Gemina

What issues exist that should prevent the devs from releasing a new tank and healer? And do you honestly think the tank and healer communities want to go another two years without new jobs to learn and play for the sake of the hanging carrot known as "balance"?

Both WHM and DRK have their own issues on top of balance related ones. Both are looking up from the shadows casted by the other two jobs in their respective roles. So why are so many players still choosing these jobs instead of the meta favored to run content? You don't have to answer that because I am sure the reasons among WHM and DRK mains will vary, but one thing we can deductively conclude is that they enjoy playing those jobs. And we can accurately come to that conclusion because these two jobs are played despite being at the bottom of the totem pole AND having mechanical issues with how they're played.

The state of the meta cannot, and should not determine whether or not new jobs are released. If this was the case, we'd never get any new jobs, or an existing job with a different acronym. Content and lore is also created around new jobs, and continuously feeding this to the DPS role will eventually starve tanks and healers. We're already famished to be quite honest with you.

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You know, I haven't agreed with very many of your opinions? But this, right here. /Thread. Pack it up, go home. Gemina has it right.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

I'm afraid you have no idea what parrying is. In reality, the smaller gunblade is far superior weapon to parry with than the the Dark Knights greatsword or the Warriors greataxe.

Parrying is an act of deflecting the attack to the side. It does not require a lot of power. It requires speed and precision. That's why SMALL weapons are used for parrying. Ever heard of parrying dagger?!

Large weapons are better for BLOCKING, but weapons shouldn't be used to block in the first place. That's a last resort maneuver because it can result in the weapon being damaged and made unusable.

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I'll give you that, I don't know much about real combat save for what I've read in Ranger's Apprentice.

Honestly, by that logic, nobody other than Paladin should be able parry at the moment, though. And I shouldn't be able to tank Head On so effectively with Raw Intuition...

I guess trying to bring logic into this isn't really working... I'm just saying a Gunblade just doesn't feel like the sort of weapon a tank would use, is what I'm saying. What does the gun provide to the tank class, other than more "Beefy DPS Meta" that I could really do without?

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Originally Posted by Duskane

Do we need to be logical in a game with fantasy in the name

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Hi, you must be new here xD

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Originally Posted by Duskane

Do we need to be logical in a game with fantasy in the name

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Well if they wanted to go full fantasy then why have they not added Dual Greatsword Tank Job yet?

Just means we get hammer dps next time around, and tanks gotta deal with all their "toys" being slashing. :P

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Originally Posted by Gemina

What issues exist that should prevent the devs from releasing a new tank and healer? And do you honestly think the tank and healer communities want to go another two years without new jobs to learn and play for the sake of the hanging carrot known as "balance"?

Both WHM and DRK have their own issues on top of balance related ones. Both are looking up from the shadows casted by the other two jobs in their respective roles. So why are so many players still choosing these jobs instead of the meta favored to run content? You don't have to answer that because I am sure the reasons among WHM and DRK mains will vary, but one thing we can deductively conclude is that they enjoy playing those jobs. And we can accurately come to that conclusion because these two jobs are played despite being at the bottom of the totem pole AND having mechanical issues with how they're played.

The state of the meta cannot, and should not determine whether or not new jobs are released. If this was the case, we'd never get any new jobs, or an existing job with a different acronym. Content and lore is also created around new jobs, and continuously feeding this to the DPS role will eventually starve tanks and healers. We're already famished to be quite honest with you.

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People are misunderstanding and thinking I'm talking about individual class balance, when what I mean is that the tank and healer roles in this game have serious design issues that affect individual class balance. If "better mitigation" and "more healing" were seen as actual valuable traits for tanks and healers to have I feel like some of the problems that jobs have wouldn't exist as much (worth noting that a part of the issue is that mitigation and healing are basically standardized among tanks/heals as it is, so personal/rDPS is all people look at when determining how good or useful a new job is).

This was part of what I think people were hoping would be looked at when they punted new tanks and heals back to 5.0, but alas, we got another expansion of WAR and SCH being OP because they don't give up anything tanking/healing-wise to do comparatively high DPS.

EDIT: I should also clarify, I'm not saying the devs shouldn't release new shinies for tanks and heals to enjoy with SBr, I'm just expressing my disappointment that they didn't do what they said they would in SB. To me personally it makes it hard to be as excited for these new jobs because the cynic in me is just wondering, "will they be OP enough to compete with WAR and SCH? and if they are, RIP WHM/AST/DRK/PLD".

This doesn't really impact most people, who will play what they like irrespective of meta. But as a former raider it gets troubling seeing standardized tanking and healing kits leaving little room for individual class balance outside of personal DPS and raid utility (usually rDPS contributions).

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Well if they wanted to go full fantasy then why have they not added Dual Greatsword Tank Job yet?

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Meh dual greatswords is too unrealistic

Add greatsword-chucks instead... >.>

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I'm curious. Why do we need new Tanks / Healers?

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Because DPS mains aren’t the only ones who play this game? I mean, I hear this ALMOST every time a new tank or healer class is realeased and it makes me sad. I’ve been healing in this game since the binding coil and I enjoy leveling and learning new jobs in my preferred role just as much as you probably do with yours, but I can be happy for my other mains when they get new toys to play with. So why can’t you do the same? We’ve waited quite a while now for new healer and tank jobs while they pop out dps jobs like candy bars at Willy Wonka’s chocolate factory.

Gunbreaker looks fun and i will enjoy leveling it myself. Cheers, tank mains.

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Originally Posted by Its_Elodie

Because DPS mains aren’t the only ones who play this game? I mean, I hear this ALMOST every time a new tank or healer class is realeased and it makes me sad. I’ve been healing in this game since the binding coil and I enjoy leveling and learning new jobs in my preferred role just as much as you probably do with yours, but I can be happy for my other mains when they get new toys to play with. So why can’t you do the same? We’ve waited quite a while now for new healer and tank jobs while they pop out dps jobs like candy bars at Willy Wonka’s chocolate factory.

Gunbreaker looks fun and i will enjoy leveling it myself. Cheers, tank mains.

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You also left out the part of when SB launched DPS people were complaining about 30-60+ minute wait times in queue just to do a roulette because everyone wanted to try the new jobs. But I guess they must really like waiting ;P lol

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

You also left out the part of when SB launched DPS people were complaining about 30-60+ minute wait times in queue just to do a roulette because everyone wanted to try the new jobs. But I guess they must really like waiting ;P lol

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How quickly they forget. Just means with all the GUN's and (unnamed healer here)'s queue times might be decent if the launch of these classes goes smoother than DRK and AST since they were both under powered at Heaven'sward's launch.