Wrongful kicking people on third boss in new Ivalice raid

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Originally Posted by Maero

Or they are people that do not work for a living and have all the time in the world to game? lol

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Or they could be self-employed or working professionals that only go into the office 2-3 times a week. Not everyone works at Mcdonald's 50 hrs a week for a living you know? lol

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Originally Posted by Seddrinth

Or they could be self-employed or working professionals that only go into the office 2-3 times a week. Not everyone works at Mcdonald's 50 hrs a week for a living you know? lol

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Can we end these snide remarks about peoples careers please?
Your working hours and availability to play the game doesn't reflect your 'dedication' to it, or the status of your career, and not everyone who works 9-5 works at "mcdonalds".

Well then, the amount of butthurt over that comment is unreal. Facts are hard to accept, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Seddrinth

If your not knowing mechanics leads to your raid getting wiped, I'm not sure how anyone can complain about being kicked. There's already guides out there.

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finding a guide for something in its first week of release really makes me question that person's reason for even playing this game. I'm not welcoming bad players, either. I just want people to learn from the mistakes they make during the fight, idc if we wipe a few times if people stop getting surprised that "oh I have to MOVE out of those orange areas, right, i forgot".

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Well then, the amount of butthurt over that comment is unreal. Facts are hard to accept, I guess.

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Your "facts" are opinions and nothing more. As such, people have the right to call you out on them if they consider them untrue or flawed. That's not "butthurt", it's a difference in opinions.

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Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira

finding a guide for something in its first week of release really makes me question that person's reason for even playing this game. I'm not welcoming bad players, either. I just want people to learn from the mistakes they make during the fight, idc if we wipe a few times if people stop getting surprised that "oh I have to MOVE out of those orange areas, right, i forgot".

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The reasons are to clear content, get loot, and not be a burden to other people in the raid. Blind runs are fine and they can be fun. Just make sure everyone in the group are like minded in that regard.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Not to be captain obvious here, but casual players don't usually get up before the sun rises to run a new 24 man on patch day.

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Yes we do. I did Raba on day one as soon as the patch downloaded. My schedule has kept me from doing the last two that way, but yeah. Im not sure what your definition of casual is but i dont do ex while its relevant nor savage. Thats casual in most people's books.

Vote kicking for no real reason should be reportable, but then there should be better reasons for kicking. Like Shirking for no reason or using skills to troll like Rescue. The tank who did that to our healer was real lucky we were almost thru the dungeon and didnt want to wait on another to que. (Seriously she did nothing. We thought it was a misclick until they gave us a snooty little emote after). Personally I'd rather just deal and get thru the duty but there are some instances where its not worth the stress. Maybe a 3 strikes system would work better. Like you can only get kicked if you rack up 3 warnings or something.

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Originally Posted by Ursa_Vonfiebryd

Vote kicking for no real reason should be reportable, but then there should be better reasons for kicking.

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vote kicking should absolutely not be reportable. a vote to kick is a system of putting all of the players' responsibility on the table and asking "do the majority of you agree that this person should be removed from the party?"

If the players fail to pay attention and blindly hit "yes", that is a failure in the playerbase and not a reason to report the Vote kicker.

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Originally Posted by Seddrinth

The reasons are to clear content, get loot, and not be a burden to other people in the raid. Blind runs are fine and they can be fun. Just make sure everyone in the group are like minded in that regard.

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yeah, in 24 mans, that last part is just not reasonably going to ever happen. several of my casual-leaning friends held off doing content because "they wanted to watch a guide" bc they didnt want to be a burden, like you said. I told them to ignore that and just run with me, and I'LL teach you how to run this fight. They were never a burden after that.

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Originally Posted by Seddrinth

If your not knowing mechanics leads to your raid getting wiped, I'm not sure how anyone can complain about being kicked. There's already guides out there. If you want to go in blind and prog without really trying to clear the raid you can form your own groups with like-minded players. The people who kicked you already know the fight and just want to get their weekly clear. It's nothing personal.

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If people are kicking, because people are learning - on the first day - which a lot of guides at the time probably weren't out, or were JUST coming out. Is absolutely ridiculous, not to mention watching, or reading a guide is not the same as putting it in practice.

The only ppl I have been seeing kicked are ppl who are refusing to do mechanics no matter how many times they are explained and spending most their time face down in the dirt or are being jerks. I personally kicked two ppl this week who were just being flat out rude.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Your "facts" are opinions and nothing more. As such, people have the right to call you out on them if they consider them untrue or flawed. That's not "butthurt", it's a difference in opinions.

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Perhaps it was a flawed delivery, but the underlying reality is most certainly true. There is no great mystery, the majority of people who are online as soon as a patch hits are doing so to get sh!t done, not to lollygag around or troll people and wipe repeatedly. That doesn't mean you're not a "dedicated" player if you can't make it early, there are simply more dedicated players on at once during those times - hence the reports from multiple players of early runs being smoother. Such controversy.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Perhaps it was a flawed delivery, but the underlying reality is most certainly true. There is no great mystery, the majority of people who are online as soon as a patch hits are doing so to get sh!t done, not to lollygag around or troll people and wipe repeatedly. That doesn't mean you're not a "dedicated" player if you can't make it early, there are simply more dedicated players on at once during those times - hence the reports from multiple players of early runs being smoother. Such controversy.

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Trust me, it's not just a flawed delivery. Still isn't.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Perhaps it was a flawed delivery, but the underlying reality is most certainly true. There is no great mystery, the majority of people who are online as soon as a patch hits are doing so to get sh!t done, not to lollygag around or troll people and wipe repeatedly. That doesn't mean you're not a "dedicated" player if you can't make it early, there are simply more dedicated players on at once during those times - hence the reports from multiple players of early runs being smoother. Such controversy.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Trust me, it's not just a flawed delivery. Still isn't.

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I would agree with Whiskey here. The balance of people on the moment servers come up from a patch are skewed towards the more hardcore. Clearly no one is trying to say that no casual people would be on, because of course time zone is a thing.

I have seen Whiskey attempting to meet you halfway and acknowledge this. You however seem to be adamant that he must present a full and unconditional surrender to your position.

I do not believe you will get your wish.

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Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira

finding a guide for something in its first week of release really makes me question that person's reason for even playing this game. I'm not welcoming bad players, either. I just want people to learn from the mistakes they make during the fight, idc if we wipe a few times if people stop getting surprised that "oh I have to MOVE out of those orange areas, right, i forgot".

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Different people learn in different ways though. While some may learn best from doing, others learn better from guides. Neither way is superior or inferior to the other.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

I would agree with Whiskey here. The balance of people on the moment servers come up from a patch are skewed towards the more hardcore. Clearly no one is trying to say that no casual people would be on, because of course time zone is a thing.

I have seen Whiskey attempting to meet you halfway and acknowledge this. You however seem to be adamant that he must present a full and unconditional surrender to your position.

I do not believe you will get your wish.

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He did say that no casual would be on at that hour though. I'm not asking for a surrender...I'm just disagreeing with their position. And you're right, I'm adamant, but only about my own opinion. People are free to disagree with me, obviously.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

He did say that no casual would be on at that hour though. I'm not asking for a surrender...I'm just disagreeing with their position. And you're right, I'm adamant, but only about my own opinion. People are free to disagree with me, obviously.

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That would probably be better communicated with a "Let's just agree to disagree" then. However I am not attempting to look for a fight (concerned last post may be taken the wrong way due to the nature of conversation by text)

Fair enough on your opinion though.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

The only ppl I have been seeing kicked are ppl who are refusing to do mechanics no matter how many times they are explained and spending most their time face down in the dirt or are being jerks. I personally kicked two ppl this week who were just being flat out rude.

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This is 100% true. Players in this game are very tolerant. If you get kicked, chances are very high that you deserved it. I've seen really bad people who were not kicked, who should have been kicked. It takes a lot for a group to collectively decide to kick someone.

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Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira

vote kicking should absolutely not be reportable. a vote to kick is a system of putting all of the players' responsibility on the table and asking "do the majority of you agree that this person should be removed from the party?"

If the players fail to pay attention and blindly hit "yes", that is a failure in the playerbase and not a reason to report the Vote kicker.

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Except that preformed parties can and have abused it. In a completely pug environment I totally agree with you. However the point is moot. Turns out that it IS a policed event. I got the warning when I initiated a vote-kick for our tank that had dc'd and didn't come back at Cid. Don't know how they are policing it exactly but it warned that wrongful use of the feature could incurr...something. I didn't read the full text. Maybe its the same warning they use when you report someone. I don't remember seeing it before tho. Maybe its special for Orbonne (because that's where it happened).

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Originally Posted by SpiritMuse

Different people learn in different ways though. While some may learn best from doing, others learn better from guides. Neither way is superior or inferior to the other.

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I don't think you're wrong, I just think I lean heavier on "just do it" because this is a game, after all, where most of the experience is the "doing". idk if that makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Ursa_Vonfiebryd

Except that preformed parties can and have abused it. In a completely pug environment I totally agree with you. However the point is moot. Turns out that it IS a policed event. I got the warning when I initiated a vote-kick for our tank that had dc'd and didn't come back at Cid. Don't know how they are policing it exactly but it warned that wrongful use of the feature could incurr...something. I didn't read the full text. Maybe its the same warning they use when you report someone. I don't remember seeing it before tho. Maybe its special for Orbonne (because that's where it happened).

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that's really interesting, I wasnt aware of the warning message, tbh. I cant remember the last time I initiated a vote kick. they should probably outline it if they made changes to wrongful vote kicking (whatever that actually is).

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Originally Posted by Ursa_Vonfiebryd

Except that preformed parties can and have abused it. In a completely pug environment I totally agree with you. However the point is moot. Turns out that it IS a policed event. I got the warning when I initiated a vote-kick for our tank that had dc'd and didn't come back at Cid. Don't know how they are policing it exactly but it warned that wrongful use of the feature could incurr...something. I didn't read the full text. Maybe its the same warning they use when you report someone. I don't remember seeing it before tho. Maybe its special for Orbonne (because that's where it happened).

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I think the warning is always there. It's a policed event yes, if you use it for no reason. As far as I can tell, the listed categories are allowed (harassment, afk, offline), and GMs have come on the forums to say "difference in playstyle" is a valid reason to kick. That goes both ways though, it's kind of a gray area.

So after all that, something considered vote kick abuse would be like.. kicking someone for fun but then how do you actually prove that if there is no chat or kicking someone so you can leave with no penalty. /shrug I think it's just there to deter obvious trolling and make people think twice if they really should be kicking someone.

I did Orbonne today and my party had 1 new person, on 3rd boss they got marked for both double reds which they dropped right on the bridge, got hit by every in/and out and probably died 5+ times. Still got through the entire raid with 0 wipes. We didn't kick him because he was new, just told him to pay a bit more attention. It's pretty lenient tbh. You can shrug the bleeds off from the colliding reds if the healers are paying attention.

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Originally Posted by Seddrinth

This is 100% true. Players in this game are very tolerant. If you get kicked, chances are very high that you deserved it. I've seen really bad people who were not kicked, who should have been kicked. It takes a lot for a group to collectively decide to kick someone.

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My bottom line in this raid every time has been "don't vote abandon, if you want to leave tell your party and we'll kick you so you don't get the penalty." I want people to stay and learn. It might take me more time now, but it means that hopefully some folks will be returning next time with a better understanding.

That being said, I had to vote kick a cohealer on one run. I had them focus targeted to make sure I wasn't making a snap judgement, but in the whole first boss fight they cast a handful of cures and one medica II. Nothing else, no benedictions or tetras, no assizes or shields, no aero, no stone.

It'll be a week or two before I'm comfortable solo-healing Orbonne, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Seddrinth

This is 100% true. Players in this game are very tolerant. If you get kicked, chances are very high that you deserved it. I've seen really bad people who were not kicked, who should have been kicked. It takes a lot for a group to collectively decide to kick someone.

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Very anecdotal. You would be surprised how many wrongful kicks do actually go out.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Very anecdotal. You would be surprised how many wrongful kicks do actually go out.

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If they go out are they actually wrong though?

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

If they go out are they actually wrong though?

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Suddenly, I just remembered the pld-boyfriends and whm-girlfriends who are beyond reproach from bad play.

Thankfully I don't encounter them often but god forbid I manage to end up in such a party with the 3rd person being their guild member or just a clueless person who thinks someone mentioning to turn on the tank stance to hold aggro is toxic.

/shiver

Mass influx of a certain playerbase from another community bringing their toxicity with them. Always praised our community for being decent a majority of the time.

Nah, last I checked our community was notoriously bad skill wise.Maybe that influx of player can bring the bar up a bit, not like it'd be hard.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

...Maybe that influx of player can bring the bar up a bit, not like it'd be hard.

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But the price to pay for it may be a bit high, 'tho.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Suddenly, I just remembered the pld-boyfriends and whm-girlfriends who are beyond reproach from bad play.

Thankfully I don't encounter them often but god forbid I manage to end up in such a party with the 3rd person being their guild member or just a clueless person who thinks someone mentioning to turn on the tank stance to hold aggro is toxic.

/shiver

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i've experienced this as well. almost every couple I've knowingly ran into in FFxiv have been notoriously bad and over defensive. they're the type that only runs content when together and (from my perspective) never go very far past dungeon-level content. not saying theres anything wrong with this, do w/e you want, but the RP in dungeons gets pretty cringey.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

But the price to pay for it may be a bit high, 'tho.

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Oh I am more than ready to pay it. Even twice or thrice even. Our average player is just that bad.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Oh I am more than ready to pay it. Even twice or thrice even. Our average player is just that bad.

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It is no different in any other game.