Performance-based roll system

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Originally Posted by Kleeya

Even if that was true (it might just be you having no luck ending with bad/selfish rdms) that's not a reason to make that even worse by inciting people of thinking of their group dps only.

I did take that as an example, but we can imagine players with aoes markers going on purpose near other groups players, so that their heals gets busy healing them rather than doing more dps. Or for the same purpose tanks turning the boss towards other groups when a big cleave is coming. No tanks wanting to be the main defensive one because "my dps". A full roster group in 400+ stuff getting the bonus despite not needing such low level stuff, while the two others less geared groups who actually need more drops will in fact get less. Players with parsers leaving the raid when they see they will not get more drops. And so on. I am sure that there is tons of other points that will make 24 man raids way more toxic if you bring competition between players into them, instead of keeping them as as a common goal to reach together.

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I cant see people compromising the entire raid simply for the chance at one extra drop, when the risk of wiping would mean simply running the raid another time would probably be more beneficial.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

People with disabilities would be punished for this. Anyone who is partially blind, mentally challenged, and/or physically unable to play easily would be brutally punished.

Keep this kind of system in savage/extreme/ultimate if it is ever implemented.

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Not to be disrespectful or anything, but that's on them. If someone can play a game at a respectable level using their feet then nobody has any excuse. You can't expect everything in life to be tailor made for a tiny minority of users, video games least of all.

There are also failsafes in place for these people in the form of tomestones and other token related gear that is 100% guaranteed regardless of effort or participation, so that's a moot point entirely.

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Originally Posted by Seddrinth

Any ideas on how we can make rolling on loot somewhat performance-based? I'm mainly talking about the non-savage duty funder type stuff like dungeons, normal raids, trials, etc. It would be nice to reward people who perform with a +20 to whatever they would've rolled so that there's an incentive to do your best instead of letting people carry you. It's kind of annoying to see players die to easy mechanics 4 times, contribute nothing, and then win the loot with a 95 roll while the people who actually did the work lose out.

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This idea won't work.

You are not thinking hard enough about all circumstances.

Other players can get you killed, lower your dps by making mistakes that you must correct, and lower healer performance due to too many mistakes they must correct. Tanks can die while using cooldowns and playing properly simply due to healer mistakes.

Say a mechanic happens which I do correctly, but the other players do not do it right and as a result I die. My performance goes down even though it wasnt my fault I died. There are plenty of ways to kill another player and ruin their performance while not dying yourself.

The system would need to be waaaay too precise to properly calculate all these possibilities.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

Dude come on don't exaggerate. 2 raises are no issue except you died before.
But yeah its a good idea to not die and the next thing that a healer will say to everyone in the party is: "nah i won't heal you i have to do dps myself, just avoid to take damage"

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Well no, really. Two raises back to back is 7 200 MP. RDM have 14 400 MP. If we play full uptime, we mostly sit around 7 - 8 000 MP most of the time, with Lucid Dreaming used on cooldown.
A RDM can raise roughly once every 90 seconds, if Lucid Dreaming is used on CD. A little less if there is a Refresh Song.

Now the healer not healing is another problem. But it's everyone's job to avoid unnecessary healing too!

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Well no, really. Two raises back to back is 7 200 MP. RDM have 14 400 MP. If we play full uptime, we mostly sit around 7 - 8 000 MP most of the time, with Lucid Dreaming used on cooldown.
A RDM can raise roughly once every 90 seconds, if Lucid Dreaming is used on CD. A little less if there is a Refresh Song.

Now the healer not healing is another problem. But it's everyone's job to avoid unnecessary healing too!

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Its funny that there are RDM who can raise and others have mana issues. ;)

Of course it is everyones job to avoid dmg and to avoid dying, but it doesn't always work out the ideal way and you should know that.

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Originally Posted by Miste

There are plenty of ways to kill another player and ruin their performance while not dying yourself.

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That's exactly why you would need a system that rewards the whole team for doing good and not reward each person. Worst case scenario, if you're personally rewarded for your DPS, it would be to your benefit to help other DPS die so that you'd have to take care of monsters more.

If the team as a whole is rewarded, you'll have no reason to backstab people.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If the team as a whole is rewarded, you'll have no reason to backstab people.

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But then you're no longer just aiming for a kill, you're aiming for a smooth, fast kill. The goalposts move. Now you have plenty of reason to remove the weak link from your group.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

But then you're no longer just aiming for a kill, you're aiming for a smooth, fast kill. The goalposts move. Now you have plenty of reason to remove the weak link from your group.

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That is a problem why? We already remove weak links from party finder content, which is where the majority of this discussion is aimed at, and we have every right to.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Not to be disrespectful or anything, but that's on them. If someone can play a game at a respectable level using their feet then nobody has any excuse. You can't expect everything in life to be tailor made for a tiny minority of users, video games least of all.

There are also failsafes in place for these people in the form of tomestones and other token related gear that is 100% guaranteed regardless of effort or participation, so that's a moot point entirely.

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My point is not moot. Yours is. The fact that you would support making it harder for these people to play is sick, and shows a lack of compassion on your part.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

But then you're no longer just aiming for a kill, you're aiming for a smooth, fast kill. The goalposts move. Now you have plenty of reason to remove the weak link from your group.

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People already go for the fastest run available, nothing moves from that. However, if you have a reward for your tank taking less damage, you'll probably see more or them keeping their stance.

I would love to have this system implemented for a couple weeks just to see people like op run back here and beg for it to be reversed.

What's the point of giving better players better rolls? If you're top dps, most likely you already have better gear so system like this would only make rich richer and poor poorer. Similarly stupid and impossible to implement, but more beneficial would be reversed system where people with low ilvl would get better rolls.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

That's exactly why you would need a system that rewards the whole team for doing good and not reward each person. Worst case scenario, if you're personally rewarded for your DPS, it would be to your benefit to help other DPS die so that you'd have to take care of monsters more.

If the team as a whole is rewarded, you'll have no reason to backstab people.

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Uh...but the OP's suggestion was to add a +20 to loot rolls if your performance is high.

If the entire group gets +20 on their rolls then what's the point? It cancels it out and negates any bonus at all at that point. I was replying specifically to OP's suggestion so...yeah, not sure why you replied to me with this? It has nothing to do with my reply to him about his idea.

Your idea is also faulty and not thinking hard enough about the entire picture. One person can play with very high performance while the other 7 barely scrape by....then that one person gets screwed due to other players ruining the group performance.

It isn't a good system to reward player or group bonuses based on single player performance OR group performance because no matter how well you personally play other players can ruin your bonuses by killing you, playing poorly, etc.

Either system has serious flaws and in my opinion will only create more grief, hate, and segregation between players than there already is.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

People already go for the fastest run available, nothing moves from that. However, if you have a reward for your tank taking less damage, you'll probably see more or them keeping their stance.

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Any system that would reward tanks for staying in tank stance would be incredibly daft. Tanks and healers are so strong that tank stance is almost entirely useless for most things beyond establishing initial enmity.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Uh...but the OP's suggestion was to add a +20 to loot rolls if your performance is high.

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That's why I suggested a performance bonus chest system.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

How about a performance based number of loot instead ?

You could add optionnal objectives to dungeons, that would simply increase the number of chests at the end, to encourage everyone to perform better.
- No death ? "Flawless victory bonus chest"
- Less than x number of damage taken ? "Life preservation bonus chest"
- x amount of total damage dealt ? "Brutal bonus chest"
- Every monster killed ? "Slayer bonus chest"
etc...

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Originally Posted by Miste

yeah, not sure why you replied to me with this? It has nothing to do with my reply to him about his idea.

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I replied to you to flesh out your fear of consequences, not because I was disagreeing :p

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Originally Posted by Miste

It isn't a good system to reward player or group bonuses based on single player performance OR group performance because no matter how well you personally play other players can ruin your bonuses by killing you, playing poorly, etc.

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At worst, you'd simply have the same situation as now, you wouldn't lose anything by having a system that support improvement with bonuses. It's like saying "first participation bonus is bad because I could end with no first timer". That's what they would be, "bonuses".

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Originally Posted by Miste

Any system that would reward tanks for staying in tank stance would be incredibly daft. Tanks and healers are so strong that tank stance is almost entirely useless for most things beyond establishing initial enmity.

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Frankly, tanks play the same whatever stance they use, so it's not like playing would be less engaging. Right now, they don't use it because the only way to earn loot is to kill the enemy. If you had different objectives, it could change the meta a little.

It's a nice thought, OP, but then there are veterans who are just rolling through content to help out or doing a quest, and literally do not need any gear from the dungeons. I'm a 70 DPS rolling through a level 51 dungeon - I know my rotation inside out and, and I'm going to be passing all then loot anyway. Despite contributing 50% of the DPS for the whole dungeon, I'm not going to lot on anything. So it.... does nothing for anyone else.

Maybe if this was applicable to non-gear items, like minions or ponies/birds/dogs, but even then it's trying to solve a problem that really doesn't exist. If someone's performance is poor because their iLvl is low, they need the gear more than anyone else, don't they?

-50 dkp OP

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Originally Posted by Mewnie

-50 dkp OP

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Man I haven't seen DKP since I quit XI.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

My point is not moot. Yours is. The fact that you would support making it harder for these people to play is sick, and shows a lack of compassion on your part.

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Putting words in my mouth, nice one. You don't know me at all, so kindly take those assumptions elsewhere, thanks. For all you know I may have a disability myself, yet I've been able to work around it to become a better player.

The game isn't being made "harder" for anyone with these suggestions at all, and my point still stands that regardless of ability and effort, everyone gets guaranteed loot/currency in literally every duty. Quit playing the disability card, the majority of the playerbase frankly doesn't need to know or care that someone might possibly play poorly because they have no hands or whatever other problem. All they care about is getting through a duty as smoothly as possible without having to carry dead weight.

I'll say it again, much more clearly this time. People with disabilities choose to play this game in spite of said issues, they aren't special, they are held to the exact same standard of play as everyone else. Get good or get out.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Frankly, tanks play the same whatever stance they use, so it's not like playing would be less engaging. Right now, they don't use it because the only way to earn loot is to kill the enemy. If you had different objectives, it could change the meta a little.

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Actually, it would because half the engagement comes from optimization. If I'm arbitrarily forced to sit in tank stance, I'm basically losing damage for no discernible reason. Ironically, this makes it so the healers have even less to heal when normal mode is already mostly a joke. Put simply, it wouldn't change a thing. People such as myself wouldn't even look at normal mode for longer than we have to or wouldn't care regardless. Forcing tanks into their stance in a manner such as this screams laziness. It means the devs have no idea how to actually make tank stance engaging or fun but they'll force it on you anyway.

Those filthy casuals!
After depriving them of any fun because we want speedrun everything, it is more than welcome remove them rights to any loot (the same loot we don't event care to roll because... don't care).

How they dare to think they have any right... they must be grateful they had an opportunity to see a glimpse of how the game must be played, before we kick them out (and disband).

They must be grateful we gave them the time to rethink how they must approach this game. We are them saviors. Ho, yesss.