Is it wrong to run Castrum Abania as a tank at ilvl 272

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I'm starting to think that's your go-to response to anything you deem as less than optimal. (Hint: it kinda loses its meaning when used that way.)

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Just like your go-to response of a black and white "100% optimal" or "burden to the party" loses its meaning.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

And yet despite all your numbers, I wasn't getting my ass kicked in these dungeons. Maybe it's because... *gasp* the dungeons aren't that difficult and the numbers don't actually mean as much as you think they might?

The DEF stat really doesn't make as huge of a difference as many of you are blowing it up to be (and I'm pretty sure that this at least partially accounts for me not getting my ass kicked tanking these dungeons in i270 like people here insist I must have been).

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It’s hard for me to take the word of someone who acts the way you do and who basically told Ultimate players to git gud at face value. Apologies.

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Just like your go-to response of a black and white "100% optimal" or "burden to the party" loses its meaning.

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Pretty sure that was your own argument, not mine. And yes, it does come off as very black and white; thanks for pointing that out so I didn't have to.

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It’s hard for me to take the word of someone who acts the way you do and who basically told Ultimate players to git gud at face value. Apologies.

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If you think Abania is challenging to the point that you will look down at someone who's running it in i270, I pretty much don't care if you've cleared Ultimate or not; that's still pretty sad, and in my book is very much deserving of a git gud. Apologies. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Pretty sure that was your own argument, not mine. And yes, it does come off as very black and white; thanks for pointing that out so I didn't have to.

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Your strawman relies on that being my argument. Too bad it isn't.

i270 isn't "not optimal." It's burdensome. It's lackadaisical to not take any gear upgrades afforded to you and proudly strut into the final leveling dungeon in the previous expansion's final tier gear.

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i270 isn't "not optimal." It's burdensome.

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Disagree, because all my experience points toward it working out just fine. Again, maybe you're just bad. :/

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

This is why we need ilvl locks.

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Min ilvl or min def requirements for tanks. One of the two. Especially when free gear is literally thrown at you while leveling.

IIRC Rift had those where you had to have a minimum stat to enter certain dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

If you think Abania is challenging to the point that you will look down at someone who's running it in i270, I pretty much don't care if you've cleared Ultimate or not; that's still pretty sad, and in my book is very much deserving of a git gud. Apologies. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Honey, there's only one person looking down on others here, and it's not me.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Disagree, because all my experience points toward it working out just fine. Again, maybe you're just bad. :/

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Important PSA everyone: personal anecdotes trump numbers.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

If you think Abania is challenging to the point that you will look down at someone who's running it in i270, I pretty much don't care if you've cleared Ultimate or not; that's still pretty sad, and in my book is very much deserving of a git gud. Apologies. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Git considerate?

No apologies.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Honey, there's only one person looking down on others here, and it's not me.

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I disagree - I'm also looking down on him.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Disagree, because all my experience points toward it working out just fine. Again, maybe you're just bad. :/

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Or maybe you're just blissfully unaware of how bad you get carried.

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Git considerate?

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I'll be considerate when I feel people are deserving of it. So far, not many participants in the thread have demonstrated that; they've only demonstrated a willingness to attack something that they think does not work.

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Or maybe you're just blissfully unaware of how bad you get carried.

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

The DEF stat really doesn't make as huge of a difference as many of you are blowing it up to be (and I'm pretty sure that this at least partially accounts for me not getting my ass kicked tanking these dungeons in i270 like people here insist I must have been). People were already figuring this out way back in 2.x when Foresight was still being picked apart as a cross class ability, and often ridiculed for failing to even make a visible difference most of the time.

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You're quite delusional I must say you gain more than double your defense as a tank, more VIT, more STR, you might as well be a DRG who can hold threat oh wait someone already showed the math and a DRG with lvl 68 gear vs Aug Shire gear has more def, oops. I've had tanks in Sirensong Sea with ilvl 200 AF gear I've had tanks in Bardams with Gubal Library gear, it is a hindrance and makes you a detriment to your party, keyword here party.

I don't get this attitude that you have, you claim that you want people to come in prepared and role ready but you're not? What's your excuse? Scraping by the skin of your teeth doesn't sound very fun or letting your group do all the work while you get pounded by the mobs great job. Also telling people who raid and are tank mains and people who cleared Savage to git gud really doesn't help your case dude just makes that hole you have ever so deeper.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I'll be considerate when I feel people are deserving of it. So far, not many participants in the thread have demonstrated that; they've only demonstrated a willingness to attack something that they think does not work.

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I don't care if you consider my feelings in this thread I care if you consider your party during group content.

Having less defense as a tank than a DRG would is being inconsiderate.

Stop it, get some help.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

If you think Abania is challenging to the point that you will look down at someone who's running it in i270, I pretty much don't care if you've cleared Ultimate or not; that's still pretty sad, and in my book is very much deserving of a git gud. Apologies. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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There you go again, putting words in people's mouths. No one ever said Abania was challenging. We simply said we have zero interest carrying you through content because you're too lazy to upgrade—even going so far as to brag about how much gil you sold upgraded gear for. I'll liken this to Miss "I refuse to use Lucid/Diversion" BLM from another thread. I could hold aggro off her easily if I spammed aggro combos and/or sat in Tank Stance half the fight. I won't though. Instead, I will watch the boss pivot around and bop her out of existence. Just like I won't go out of my way to spam heal someone whose excuse for running Abania with Shire gear is "I don't need to upgrade."

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

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https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...10/566/060.png

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I'll be considerate when I feel people are deserving of it. So far, not many participants in the thread have demonstrated that; they've only demonstrated a willingness to attack something that they think does not work.

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Kind of how you started attacking people for disagreeing with your opinions/anecdotes. Hmmm.
I wasn't even talking to you when I came to this thread, and the very first thing you did was call me an elitist and accuse me of fearmongering.

And let's not forget this gem:

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

So yeah, I'm gonna be condescending all I like.

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Just like I won't go out of my way to spam heal someone whose excuse for running Abania with Shire gear is "I don't need to upgrade."

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I've said numerous times that even at i270 I did not need curebombing in this dungeon, not even close.

It must be nice to be able to pretend that your position must be the correct one, by way of the "no reading comprehension" defense.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I've said numerous times that even at i270 I did not need curebombing in this dungeon, not even close.

It must be nice to be able to pretend that your position must be the correct one, by way of the "no reading comprehension" defense.

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Must be nice to be able to pretend that your position must be the correct one, by way of non-disprovable anecdotes.

Difficulty with social interaction, finds it hard to comprehend what others are saying. Doesn't understand humour, you know theres a word for this, its on the tip of my tongue, right at the edge there but I just can't grab it. Dammit well, I suppose this is just another FFXIV forums coincidence.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I've said numerous times that even at i270 I did not need curebombing in this dungeon, not even close.

It must be nice to be able to pretend that your position must be the correct one, by way of the "no reading comprehension" defense.

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You still need a lot more healing than a tank who is actually attempting to gear up. I mean you openly admit to selling the gear you get for gil instead of using it. You consciously make the decision to be undergeared and think others should just accept it.

This shows no respect for other players whom you end up with in DF. You seem to only care about yourself since you gimp your gear to obtain gil instead and don't care that other players have to pick up your slack.

Yeah this is a game, but this is just a crappy attitude to have towards others whom you play with. Respect has to go both ways, you aren't going to get respect if you offer none, and the way you are carrying yourself in this thread is really telling that you need to reflect on these things.

Your gear affects everyone else you play with in content. It affects their experience and game play. Respect that aspect and start putting forth effort to try your best instead of making excuses.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I've said numerous times that even at i270 I did not need curebombing in this dungeon, not even close.

It must be nice to be able to pretend that your position must be the correct one, by way of the "no reading comprehension" defense.

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See, I would believe you. No really, I would absolutely believe you've micromanaged the healing sound effects down to the slightest ping except... you also said 25 is comparable to 300.

Sooo... call me crazy but your feelings may not be all that reliable. Shocking, I know.

tl;dr Technically yes, you could run it at i272, but you're only going to make life harder for you and your party, particularly if you are a tank or healer. For progressions's sake, you're probably better off leveling by updating Shire gear by running Bardham's a few times and upgrading a few pieces of gear before moving on to Doma, then run Doma a few times to update gear before Abania. It'll make a noticeable difference.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

But guess what? That never happened to me in Abania at 270, not even anywhere close.

Maybe that was your experience. Wasn't mine.

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Out of curiosity:
How often did you tank Abania with 270 gear without any problems or anyone complaining?

I'm not going to complain. I'm just curious ^^

If suddenly I was having a terrible time tanking, getting killed all the time, not being able to hold hate, not even being able to survive a tankbuster or something, you would have a point.

None of those things happened and tanking progressed just fine (again, exactly like how it did for me going through all of 3.0 in i130 gear, which is precisely how I knew it would work again in SB; as anyone who has played this game long enough should know, SE has a way with repeating their content level layouts), contrary to the opinions of others who seem to somehow just know better than I did about my own tanking experiences.

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Out of curiosity:
How often did you tank Abania with 270 gear without any problems or anyone complaining?

I'm not going to complain. I'm just curious ^^

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Enough to reach 70, so at least a handful of times on all the jobs, including the three tanks. That's pretty much how I did the final leveling stretch on all the jobs, that and roulettes.

It wasn't ALL i270 gear, mind you. If I picked up a bit of better dungeon gear, obviously I switched to that. But I never stopped to farm any leveling dungeon solely for the purpose of getting more gear. Since a tank (PLD) is what I used to reach 70 first, it had the fewest bits of gear that were over i270. Other jobs had to run more dungeons to level, so obviously they picked up more gear.


I never once got a remark about being undergeared in a 4 man dungeon (which I know doesn't exactly mean much; DF people rarely say anything unless you are REALLY undergeared to the point where it can't not be noticed, like "less HP than everyone else as the tank" undergeared, or you really screw the pooch somehow in some other fashion), but also never felt undergeared, either. Somewhere where I definitely HAVE felt undergeared though is Savage content, usually due to being pressured to try it by friends, usually while under the minimum IL and well before I considered myself ready for it. None of us were serious raiders or anything though, and I think they just wanted to get killed over and over. Point is though, that definitely is a sort of instance where your own inadequacies are made crystal clear, and I never got that feeling from Abania or Vault or any of the other leveling dungeons past 55/65.

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See, I would believe. No really, I would absolutely believe you've micromanaged the healing sound effects down to the slightest ping except... you also said 25 is comparable to 300.

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That wasn't my own comparison; I only mentioned level 25 gear because someone else did and I was responding to that.

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So you had strong parties.

Cool story.

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I wouldn't even say that; most were quite average (due to the content still being new to most at that point). It's more a matter of the content still not being particularly difficult. They *are* 4 man dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

If suddenly I was having a terrible time tanking, getting killed all the time, not being able to hold hate, not even being able to survive a tankbuster or something, you would have a point.


None of those things happened and tanking progressed just fine (again, exactly like how it did for me going through all of 3.0 in i130 gear, which is precisely how I knew it would work again in SB; as anyone who has played this game long enough should know, SE has a way with repeating their content level layouts), contrary to the opinions of others who seem to somehow just know better than I did about my own tanking experiences.

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So you had strong parties.

Cool story.

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Originally Posted by Awful

You're quite delusional I must say you gain more than double your defense as a tank, more VIT, more STR, you might as well be a DRG who can hold threat oh wait someone already showed the math and a DRG with lvl 68 gear vs Aug Shire gear has more def, oops. I've had tanks in Sirensong Sea with ilvl 200 AF gear I've had tanks in Bardams with Gubal Library gear, it is a hindrance and makes you a detriment to your party, keyword here party.

I don't get this attitude that you have, you claim that you want people to come in prepared and role ready but you're not? What's your excuse? Scraping by the skin of your teeth doesn't sound very fun or letting your group do all the work while you get pounded by the mobs great job. Also telling people who raid and are tank mains and people who cleared Savage to git gud really doesn't help your case dude just makes that hole you have ever so deeper.

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I once had a paladin in Doma Castle with an ironworks weapon, let's just say he got kicked the instant we could... SE really needs to stop this nonsense from happening. Even among my friends I see people who just don't give a crap about their gear, like wearing the hall of novice ring and some ~level 40 earrings and maybe crafted HQ i70 gear in HW leveling dungeons. I refuse to willingly do any content with someone who is so undergeared, I don't even care if you can scrape by in that, at that point you're just there to get carried, contributing way less than everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Mizunoko

I am a veteran of this game and i know how to play and whats fair and whats not IN MY OWN OPINION, but i guess i am coming to the forums to look for a little reassurance and get other peoples views on this situation as well.

I appreciate any input and opinions anyone has as long as they read the entirety of this post and know the context before saying anything, thank you.

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I would have kicked you.

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I once had a paladin in Doma Castle with an ironworks weapon, let's just say he got kicked the instant we could... SE really needs to stop this nonsense from happening. Even among my friends I see people who just don't give a crap about their gear, like wearing the hall of novice ring and some ~level 40 earrings and maybe crafted HQ i70 gear in HW leveling dungeons. I refuse to willingly do any content with someone who is so undergeared, I don't even care if you can scrape by in that, at that point you're just there to get carried, contributing way less than everyone else.

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See, now these are all actual examples of blatant undergearing. Definitely not an advocate for any of that.

Lets clear some misconceptions about healers dealing with undergeared tanks. Just because a healer is geared and/or skilled enough to deal with it does not automatically mean they enjoy it or are okay with it.

Here is why I'm not okay with it:

• I don't fancy having to carry someone who is too lazy to get their gear in order. I sorted out my gear, why can't they? This is especially disrespectful to the party when a player who isn't new does this.
• Dealing with an undergeared tank usually means less or no time for dps so it makes the experience with my class less interesting. I actually like weaving in dps. Spamming single target heals on a fragile tank is simultaneously stressful and dull.
• Unless the dps are amazing the instance will be noticeably slower due to the loss of my dps, the tank putting out bad dps from bad gear, and potentially frequent one pack pulls.
• If I'm unlucky enough that the dps don't pump out good numbers I can go oom on some pulls if the tank's gear is bad enough, or if they pull more than they should. This unfortunately is often followed by more pulls before my mana can tick up, and this can lead to wipes.
• A badly geared tank sometimes means I can't heal unavoidable damage the dps took because they're so fragile that one heal not spent on them is enough to kill them.
• I sometimes have to blow major cds on pulls that should be easy, which can mean I don't have them for future pulls where I usually would use them. This can lead to wipes.
• Sometimes I get snarky remarks due to the above happening. I have been scolded for doing very little dps while I was struggling to keep a tank alive. I have been given crap for wipes because a tank made of tissue paper pulled two packs and used no cds.
• All of the above is stressful for me. I don't play this game to deal with the hassle of carrying lazy people, and to sometimes get blamed for their shortcomings.

I'm a pretty patient player. I am usually slow to leave groups. I generally only leave if my job is made impossible or if I'm getting abuse for things that are not my fault. I have silently endured many undergeared tanks. That being said I am aware that I'm more patient than most.

Many healers would instantly leave Castrum or Bardam if they see the tank has 270 gear and I honestly don't blame them. It's usually an awful experience to deal with that.

I suggest to anyone who thinks 270 gear is enough for Bardam and Castrum that they make a party with players of that ilvl and do that content. You'll very quickly find out why the gear for players of the intended ilvl is quite a bit higher.

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I suggest to anyone who thinks 270 gear is enough for Bardam and Castrum that they make a party with players of that ilvl and do that content. You'll very quickly find out why the gear for players of the intended ilvl is quite a bit higher.

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With the Doody Finder being the way it is, I've almost certainly ran the dungeon with worse at some point. I don't recommend it, though.

IMO if you didn't take the time to gear up to the best you could before entering SB content, you shouldn't really be attempting to coast to 70 without going out of your way for upgrades. (Luckily, if this is the situation you're in, you can already start picking up superior gear from even earlier than Bardam's Mettle, so you'll have more opportunities to improve.) I'd have said the same thing about 3.0 and not having the best gear available from ARR.

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Originally Posted by Trax028

Out of curiosity:
How often did you tank Abania with 270 gear without any problems or anyone complaining?

I'm not going to complain. I'm just curious ^^

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Enough to reach 70, so at least a handful of times on all the jobs, including the three tanks.

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So by your own admission you had enough runs, that drop a guaranteed piece at the end of each run in your inventory, to easily not be 272. That's IF you got zero gear from any chest or boss drop in those runs (unlikely).

You're just being lazy and incompetent by not equipping them.

It really does seem like you're trolling at this point

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Originally Posted by Mizunoko

I have mained tank since the release of ARR.

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K.

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Originally Posted by Mizunoko

When i entered Castrum Abania on my lvl 69 drk ilvl 272

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So you were in lv60 gear for the lv69 dungeon in an expansion where gear drops like candy and you could have easily been in far better gear without even trying. I could understand your healer and DPS being upset by this.

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Originally Posted by Mizunoko

One of the dps was of similar item level as me

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K. So one of the DPS was as lazy as you.

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Originally Posted by Mizunoko

When we got to the final boss we wiped 3 times because 1. The dps were not killing the hand adds, and 2. The healer kept getting hit.

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And 3. the tank had approximately 50% of the stats they should have had for the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Mizunoko

Sure i was getting hit a bit hard but 10 ilvl difference doesn't make it sooo terrible that it warrants harassing and blaming me for their own shortcomings?

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Doesn't make them right, no, but those 10 ilvls are a much larger difference in a leveling context than they are in an end-game context...i.e. you're kinda harassing them by not gearing up as well, IMO....again, especially in an expansion where gear drops like candy.

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Originally Posted by Mizunoko

On the 4th try i decided this was going to be my last .

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That makes sense. Harassment or no, if you're struggling that much odds are you're not clearing.

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Originally Posted by Mizunoko

On this run i noticed our healer started prioritizing dpsing over healing, they started saying how easy i melted, and they said "it was easier keeping our dps going".

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Not saying the healer was correct, but I've healed "tanks" like you seem to have been before, and they're not exactly wrong either. (I'm talking cases where the "tank" literally gets hit harder by the same ability than a DPS does.)

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Originally Posted by Mizunoko

I guess to summarize it all up it just feels like that because they all kept dying and failing to do mechanics they were using my gear level as a scapegoat to blame me instead of just admitting that they were not trying.

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Kinda like you refused to properly gear up and are trying to use them as a scapegoat to blame them instead of just admitting that you were not trying.

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Originally Posted by Mizunoko

I am a veteran of this game and i know how to play and whats fair and whats not IN MY OWN OPINION, but i guess i am coming to the forums to look for a little reassurance and get other peoples views on this situation as well.

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Sorry, but as another veteran of this game....I completely disagree.

From your account, the healer and DPS were in the wrong.

You werent undergeared for the dungeon, per say. Scratch that, you wre semi under geared, or atleast meeting the bare minimum iLvL. You shouldve had higher level gear. HOWEVER, this is also dependant on quite a few things. As a point, how fast you were leveling and how much dungeon running you do makes a difference in where you get your gear from. The Dungeon did let you run it, considering your iLvL, so whether you were 'under geared' from the perspective of the other players or not is irrelevant. The game's content allowed for you to be there, so your gear at that point is a moot aspect. What's more important at that point is what youre doing. If youre using Grit and properly CDing, than its your healer and DPSs fault. They have no recourse to saying "Youre under geared" if the dungeon is allowing you access. But this is the problem with DF broadly.

The trouble wtih DF and the like, particularly this late into the xpac, is people get lazy and forget that not everyone is iLvL 350+. They forget that bosses and mechanics dictate a certain level of play and understanding. So they go about trying to do things like they would with an 'overgeared' tank, and then when they get a tank thats fresh into that content and isnt iLvL capped, things go wrong and tehy get pissed that they have to actually use their heads and actually do the more 'boring' aspects of their jobs. They cant just tunnel vision and face roll.

At the end of the day, each role has hardset requirements. Tanks are supposed to tank the mechanics and hold hate, Healers are supposed to keep the party alive and well, and DPS are suppose to burn the boss and adds down. That is the most basic and fundamental part of the roles. Now there is overlap. Tanks and Healers are expected to DPS as well, DPS are expected to help with mitigation and hate management, Tanks are expected to CD properly to take the load of healers. So obviously it's not cut and dry. But at the end of the day, people have their roles and theyre expected to fill them at the minimum.

If the tank is taking damage and is properly CDing, it doesnt matter what their gear is, Healers and DPS need to assist in keeping the tank alive. Just like that tank needs to be keeping aggro so the DPS and healers are free to do their jobs.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

[I]If the tank is taking damage and is properly CDing, it doesnt matter what their gear is, Healers and DPS need to assist in keeping the tank alive. Just like that tank needs to be keeping aggro so the DPS and healers are free to do their jobs.

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Until the Healer runs out of mana because they're having to spam their highest cure to keep said tank alive because the tank was too lazy to upgrade his gear. That's not a massive request to make (upgrading gear). It's basic gameplay, as you put it.

I'm just gonna echo what Moro said some pages past:

ilvl lock needs to be a thing.

I suspect people like Fynlar will be extremely annoyed that they'll have to spend money to get better gear or actually re-run dgns that drop guaranteed gear until they meet ilvl requirements but at least it'll stop people going into these dgns undergeared because they feel like they don't need the better gear because they're completely oblivious that they're getting carried by their healer.

DF has a minimum iLvL. That means that EVERYONE is at that minimum iLvL, that they can complete the dungeon. Im not saying its ideal, nor am I saying it's easy. But the dungeon allows you to complete it at the minimum, then its all about playstyle and mechanics at that point.

If youre running out of Mana with a tank properly CDing, and DPS using their mitigation, than you could just very well be over healing or not managing your mana properly. But from my experience, DPS doing use their mitigation correctly, Healers over heal and dont properly preplan tank busters, and tanks tunnel vision. If the account of the OP is on point, it's more likely healers and DPS not doing THEIR part to make things go easier. To them, it was easier to witch about how 'undergeared' the tank was, rather than play their job.

Furthermore, once everyone's in the dungeon, and the minimum iLvL is met in DF, its all on people doing their class properly. Complaining about "Oh theyre undergeared!" is moot because the game doesnt agree with you at that point. Game sets the rules. Once youre dealt that hand, you play it or drop out. Cause trust me, Ive run plenty of content were Ive ultimately decided its not worth my time to play with people who meet only teh minimum. Not that I couldnt do it. But rather that I didnt want to use more of my time to get something done. I didnt blame the lower geared people though. I Just measured what I wanted vs what the game gave me and made a decision. Every player has that choice.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

DF has a minimum iLvL. That means that EVERYONE is at that minimum iLvL, that they can complete the dungeon. Im not saying its ideal, nor am I saying it's easy. But the dungeon allows you to complete it at the minimum, then its all about playstyle and mechanics at that point.

If youre running out of Mana with a tank properly CDing, and DPS using their mitigation, than you could just very well be over healing or not managing your mana properly. Once everyone's in the dungeon, and the minimum iLvL is met in DF, its all on people doing their class properly. Complaining about "Oh theyre undergeared!" is moot because the game doesnt agree with you at that point. Game sets the rules. Once youre dealt that hand, you play it or drop out. Cause trust me, Ive run plenty of content were Ive ultimately decided its not worth my time to play with people who meet only teh minimum. Not that I couldnt do it. But rather that I didnt want to use more of my time to get something done. I didnt blame the lower geared people though. I Just measured what I wanted vs what the game gave me and made a decision. Every player has that choice.

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Wrong! Leveling Dungeons don't have a min ilvl. You can que up with starter gear for them.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

DF has a minimum iLvL.

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Leveling dungeons don't have minimum item levels, and we're talking about leveling dungeons. The OP was specifically talking about Castrum Abania, the level 69 dungeon.....

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

DF has a minimum iLvL.

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Castrum Abania has no minimum iLv requirement. That or it's so low as to be irrelevant. I queued up for it with literally only my weapon equipped just now, putting me at average iLv62.

If this is the case, then yeah, thats a problem with the DF.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

If this is the case, then yeah, thats a problem with the DF.

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Which was already pointed out several times in several threads all over the different language sections of the forum, but SE doesn't care.