My own personal experience is that the TK every 30 seconds (they're swapping stances to use Riddle of Wind instead of Fire Tackle) is that the DPS increase is only marginal. Yes it's something you want to do if your latency is low enough and getting that minor buff over other monks is important to you, but it's not a massive increase. This is at least from my own attempts to do the same thing. Regardless, if Perfect Balance immediately gave you 3 GL stacks, then there's no need to swap stances to Fists of Wind in order to use Tornado Kick on a regular basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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10-30-2018, 02:43 AMwereotter
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10-30-2018, 07:47 PMShurrikhanOkay, but... why would you want to make using TK every 30/60 seconds obligatory? It's disruptive to "smooth" rotation even then, and per 60 it'd lose everything about it that would otherwise make it feel... like TK, all while costing Monk its most noteworthy mechanic.Quote:
Originally Posted by wereotter
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10-31-2018, 11:43 PMRaikai
Wildfire removed because it's redundant with Overheat. The latter already fills the role of the "bursty burst in a short window" (obviously, the damage would have to be adjusted somewhere to make up for WF).
Gauss Barrel turned into a trait so it wouldn't "drop off" after an overheat. You'd still have downtime, but now without that meaningless button to press to reapply the Gauss. -
11-01-2018, 04:44 AMSpeckledBurdRemoving Wildfire from Machinist would be like removing Mudras from Ninja or Jumps from Dragoon. It's the Job's signature skill, even if Overheating is redundant towards the purpose of being a damage buff they should just rework that instead of gutting the Job's identity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikai
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11-01-2018, 12:21 PMShurrikhanSo you'd rather remove the less criticized and more iconic damage cooldown than the auxiliary mechanic highly criticized for its clunkiness?Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikai
Honestly, I feel like we'd see relatively little perceived loss from the removal of Overheat. That's no reason to remove it, but, compare that to Wildfire, without which MCH would feel awkwardly lacking of not only something rotationally and aesthetically identity-driving, but a seemingly obligatory damage-buff cooldown.
I'd like to see both revised, honestly -- Wildfire to go off instantly before a jump (if the boss would go immune during said jump) or at least to have a manual detonation procedure, and to deal AoE damage on eruption, and something far more significant to add more noticeable gameplay prior to Overheat itself as to feel more dynamic and less like a subtle trap. -
11-01-2018, 05:33 PMSylvainI would also prefer them to expand on the overheat mech instead of wildfire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I think people are attached to the former simply because it was the first introduced. If WF was the new SB ability and overheat the HW mec, people would probably complain even more about wildfire.
I like the heat mechanic (conceptually) because its more than a simply button press that you could almost macro once every 60s.
Overheat flaw is that it is on top of wildfire and both of them just make the whole job clunky and less fun to play. (imo) I don't see them as problematic independently.
The MCH just have too many isolated mechanic that don't sync with each other.
Namely the wildfire, bullet and overheat.
Another flaw would be that the mechanic is currently a bit bland. Only 1 key to dump the heat, 1 to raise and 1 to stabilisé it.
It's a bit like the SCH with the Eatherflow in 2.0 where all you could do was either a dome or a free heal. But the successive addition of new eatherflow based ability gave the SCH a strong identity and unique game play compared to AST/WHM having mostly similar healing skills.
There is nothing to expand on Wildfire. It's a cd thats it. And you just align a bunch of other cd on a 30/60s CD.
The one tiny fun part I like about WF is that it's tied to rapide fire, the reduced gcd is fun. But this could arguably be transfer to the overheat mec where overheating also reduces the GCD by 1s for X skills.
On the other hand, there's plenty of things they could do with the overheat mechanic.
You can tie new skills / ability to it, but there is nothing you can do for wildfire beside adding more 30/60s based cd on top of it.
And I don't know about you but my definition of fun isn't to have a boring rotation for 50s and then press 15 keys simultaneously for 10s.
one or the other will probably have to go but I think dropping the overheat mechanic would be a mistake because there's so much they could do with it. -
11-01-2018, 10:21 PMRaikaiHow is Wildfire more iconic than Overheat? WF being merely a timed dot... I don't see that being more iconic that the whole heat gauge/overheating/cooling down mechanic. Also the previous poster is a bit shallow comparing WF to Mudras.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
My removal suggestion is only because both OH and WF behave almost the same (short time window to press all your keys), but if they reworked them, well it would be fine too. -
11-02-2018, 04:37 AMSpeckledBurdIgnoring that you're calling me shallow while being comically wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikai
Wildfire has been the Cooldown the job is built around since the job was introduced in Heavensward. Despite the fact that it's functionally just backloading the damage dealt during a buff window like B4B rather than attaching it to the abilities used in the time frame, the people who main the job really like seeing those big numbers pop up when they execute a perfect Wildfire. People were mad at launch when Wildfires got smaller in exchange for getting more of them, because players liked seeing those big numbers.
Overheat is not that. The Heat system on Machinist has been derided for being initially useless at launch and after the first revision to Machinist because they undertuned everything to such an extent that a perfectly executed Overheated Wildfire was only a gain of about ten potency or so. After the second revision, it has been criticized for being overly latency dependent and extremely unwieldy to use. The entire history of the mechanic and everything around it has been negative. It is a sloppily implemented mechanic with a terrible history that virtually no one has anything nice to say about it.
Sure, Wildfire is simpler than the whole heat gauge, but that doesn't make Heat more Iconic. It's Iconic because it's the ability that has been what defines the Job since it was put in the game and it doesn't hurt that it's generally beloved by the player base whereas the Heat Gauge has a troubled history and is about as popular as the Lily's are for White Mage. -
11-02-2018, 08:24 PMShurrikhanThere has scarcely been a single guide without the near immediate mention of "heavy burst around its Wildfire ability"; even official sources placed high aesthetic emphasis on it during its release. I can see how it wouldn't have that impression to everyone, but it's certain more broadly and deeply so than OH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikai
Calling them nearly the same in behavior, on the other hand, seems outright ridiculous. You may as well call BfB and LotD the same thing. They're synergistic, and each (especially OH) made more significant through the other's inclusion in a way that simply rolling one's bonuses into the other would not retain. -
11-02-2018, 10:22 PMKitfoxIt's disturbing to see people with such a different view on MCH, but I guess that's why the class is broken to this day. MCH is anything but isolated mechanics, the whole class is basically a single mechanic since absolutely everything syncs up with Wildfire burst. I also view Rapid Fire as one of the greatest design flaws because it makes the class near unplayable at higher latency. The fast gcd wouldn't be a problem by itself (see RDM), but the total-kit-sync compounds the issue into a big problem due to ogcd weaving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvain
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11-03-2018, 01:39 AMSylvainI personnaly don't consider that because every MCH CD sync on a 60s basis they're all considered one mech.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitfox
WF is simply a 25% dps buff for 10s. Nothing more nothing less. The only unique thing it has to it is that you can see how much extra dmg you actually did.
To me, a mechanic is something unique to the job. The random nature of MCH main combo is a unique twist, how it's tied to the bullet system (which I consider to be a mechanic) is also something unique that, imo, defines MCH.
Altough it isn't the most developped system, the Heat is also unique within the game. Only the MCH has a special ressource that it must keep between 2 values until a very specific moment (the famous burst window).
But at this point it's just wording so let's move on.
So you might consider that at X% dmg bonus for Ysec is the most interesting part of a job. I don't.
Rapid Fire is a design flaw because of the nature of ogcd and animation lock.
But it is fun. I like rapid fire, I vastly prefer Rapid Fire to WF.
Same goes for the heat, I like the heat system (I prefered it before the rework but I understand how it made the job even clunkier)
And as I pointed, there's a lot they could do with it. They can expand on that system like they expanded on the SCH Eatherflux. It was undermining, now it defines the job because they are the unique twist the SCH have over the other healers.
What can you do with WF? Let say they remove the Heat system and bring it back to HW.
What can you add to WF? How many more ogcd does the job need for that 10s window? -
11-12-2018, 02:33 AMSpeckledBurdYou don't need to add more oGCCD abilities to cram into it, you can go a different direction and have proper execution of GCDs and Abilities within the Wildfire duration build meter. Proper execution of the Wildfire rotation will build the greatest amount of meter and from there you can go any number of directions with it. Spend meter to make the turret execute a powerful Ability, maybe spend it on Machinist for a powerful death ray GCD. There's plenty of options from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvain
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11-12-2018, 10:46 AMShurrikhanTo clarify: I meant only to state that if we went through another stage of job-appendage-severing skill culls, I'd rather lose Overheat than Wildfire. This is not because I feel like Wildfire can be better worked off or improved than Overheat; quite the opposite. I find Wildfire something very nearly complete in itself that would work well with a mechanic that Overheat seems to have been slated to fill (i.e. some secondary, synergetic mechanic), but has failed to manage quite "right" in its current implementation. With the current implementation out of the way, we might see a less awkward synergetic mechanic that allows for less bottlenecked and more broadly nuanced gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvain
If you've some ideas for how Overheat might be redone, I'd love to hear them. My own ideas have sounded nice conceptually at first, but have been difficult to envision the practical effects of.(For instance, I've considered making Gun Heat increase both damage and attack power, increase granularly at both flat amounts and a portion of missing Heat, and for Heat to diminish continuously. Hot Shot would simply be a massive Heat generator to jump-start rotation or fill pivotal areas. Gauss Barrel would be toggleable to chamber your Heat, allowing for greater control and for heat->damage expenditure on abilities. I'd still probably need additional Turret stuff to really fill out the gameplay, but I like the idea of timing fluid & dynamic peaks and troughs of burst damage, if I could just figure out the technicals required.)
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11-14-2018, 12:24 AMGrimoire-MIf you want an idea of how to rework Overheat, I've got one proposal that also fits with a single similar change to Wildfire. Make them both stack-based effects. 6 stacks each, for 6 shots total in each window. In order to make Overheat more interesting in this situation, we build on the Heat mechanic, by adding a mechanic to skip the penalty phase. Your heat is temporarily uncapped and some weaponskills would change their effect, primarily in heat generation. Ammo would still reduce heat generation to 0 during this period. The goal is to get your heat down to 50 or lower during this period, and stay below it once Overheat runs out. The result for doing this correctly will be skipping the lockout phase. Obviously Overheat and Wildfire would both be indirectly nerfed as a result of these changes, but this alone would massively help MCH's QoL at the cost of DPS. I can see making Gauss Round and Richochet into weaponskills similar to Empyreal Arrow, and adding two more shots into the Wildfire/Overheat effects specifically for them, but that might not even be necessary. Rapid Fire would still be clunky but you wouldn't lose a WF/OH shot because of it anymore or because of waiting on a flamethrower tick. And being able to use Flamethrower for its full duration while recovering TP for Spread Shot without losing the Overheat bonus would actually help balance out MCH's AoE a little too, though that's more of a side benefit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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11-14-2018, 04:34 AMRaikaiI REALLY like your Gun Heat idea. In that case, if you accidentally overheated your weapon too much, you'd still have to deal with those seconds of "overheated" phase? It would be like a gamble of trying to stay... like 90-99% for most damage output? I like that! The skill floor would be a "safe" play, staying at 80-90 heat... the skill ceiling would be players that properly can juggle 90-99 heat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
If you had... say, something big coming off cooldown (Like Wildfire), then you'd purposely lower your heat levels with Cooldown, just enough for it to detonate at the 90-99% (saying, like, the detonation itself wouldn't add heat). It would create some interesting calculations on how much to reduce your heat not to overheat by using your dps cooldowns. :D
As for Wildfire, If the heat mechanic worked like you suggested, then I wouldn't see it as an issue anymore, especially if the horrible clipping issue of rapid fire would be dealt with. I'd just advocate, then, for a better visual effect to it.
Also, Flamethrower need to be looked upon and really brought as a major dps cooldown instead of the gimmick that it is right now.
On top of that I really like your idea of Gauss Barrel something to control better your heat. Not quite sure on how that would work mechanically, but at least it's a concept that would take GB off the limbo of an ability that it's currently at.