Thank you for increased difficulty

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

I feel like you are the type that has a girlfriend/wife that plays FFXIV and is just as arrogant you, or you are the type that would look at your girlfriend/wife trying to play FFXIV with you, and when she doesn't cut it, you break up/ask for a divorce. Reminds me of the League of Legends mentality, and how it ruins friendships cause your friend - who lives off the game - is diamond, and you are gold.

Gold 3 Friend: "Hey, wanna play LoL? I'll support."
Diamond 2 Friend: *briefly has visions of his rank dropping from Diamond 2 to Gold 3. Makes decision.* Man, you know I like you and all, but I like my rank more. Git gud, then we can be friends again.

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Give this man a medal, I don't think I've ever seen such a brazen ad hominem before.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I think it's less about content that forces people to get good and more about content that forces people to get literally at all competent at the game.

If there was a fight in the msq that actually required an optimal rotation to beat it I would be alongside what I imagine are the vast majority of players asking for nerfs. Perfection is not something that happens over night and I agree that some people are just plain not as naturally talented at certain aspects of the game. I consider myself one of them.

The issue right now is that no one seems to be able to agree where this line actually exists. To me I think expecting people to dodge repeated AoE while still putting out some damage is fine. Tanks and healers have beaten the Will of the Moon battle that people are complaining about, if a dps can't put out enough damage to do the same thing I think it's reasonable to wipe them until they learn that they need to do some more damage.

I'm not talking about a lot of damage, I'm talking about more than a healer. If a dps can't do that then I think they should have a roadblock to conquer before progressing their msq. If that's evil or toxic or whatever so be it.

This is a game where we have to play together to progress. If someone is going to get into Tsukuyomi story mode doing sub2k as a RDM (which I have seen more times than I care to count) then the game has utterly failed them and left them to exist as a burden on other players. That is not okay.

I'm no one's mom, it is not my job to carry pugs through every bit of content that they do because they can't be bothered to Google a rotation or even read their tooltips much less dodge the orange circles on the ground.

People need to think about the impact they are having on their parties. If you can't be confident that you are a net positive to the majority of groups you find yourself in then perhaps you need to do something about that to change it for the better. Having a gradual upswing in the difficulty of the msq seems like the only way SE has seen to make people evaluate that.

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If only there was an objective indicator of how well they were playing...
Shame.

I guess people will just have to be ignorant of their level of performance.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Wouldn't it be nice if Leg Sweep actual had a use?

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No, it wouldn't, especially on trash. Isolating the one mob you need to stun is not fun. Maybe on bosses, but you can't really react fast enough if the stunner fails to do so. The more tactics you add, the more ways players can fail, and apparently you can't trust the players to do well with easy content now. Why on earth add more?

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As for the forums claiming everything is easy. You're inferring nonsense. Thordan, Sephirot and Nidhogg are all talked about as fairly challenging EX Primals; the former two being highly praised.

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3 fights out of how many?

And a lot of ex primals are considered easy by forums, and some savage tiers. Thordan ex is a high bar to not be considered faceroll.

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Have you considered, you know, not doing that? Everything you described is easily remedied by adapting to the situation and learning.

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Yeah, I have. The problem is they increased the speed of incoming damage, so when i try to slowball it, the dps can now die from an attack that they could survive if topped off. And the mechanics that affect us all are now faster and rely on greater raid positioning and awareness, so they take hits more often. The bosses feel slightly tuned a bit more, so they also take more damage with more spent in mp. I'm generally aware of overhealing and stuff, but when attacks now start doing 26k damage or more stacked, when it was 14k, you're gambling a lot more on raid members keeping themselves up. If i gamble wrong, and they die to damage they could survive, it doesn't matter if i did 500 more dps when they do 500 less due to raise penalty.

And honestly, the least appealing thing in the world are this game's ex trials. By the time I've cleared, I'm so sick of the thing that I don't even care about the mounts. The idea that casuals are just chomping at the bit to get into them is hilarious to me, how you feel about pagos is how some feel about them.

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If everything stays easy, people become complacent, which is what results in the sudden shock when you try moving up a tier and nothing you've done works. This is why we see people whine about Shinryu normal.

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No, shin was just a jump up. I usually compare it to nid story, especially the add phases. I mean, 3 mobs with one wandering for Nid, 3 sets of adds with 3 meteor drops that can easily kill players with shin. But this is the faceroll thing again, you can't even say it was harder, because peopel jump on you over it.

And it doesn't matter if gradual, you still reach a point where you bow out. Its just better that its in ex content than in story, because the former doesn't gate content for people.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

No, it wouldn't, especially on trash. Isolating the one mob you need to stun is not fun.

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Fun police Riyah at it again. If you like something she doesn't you're objectively wrong.

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3 fights out of how many?

And a lot of ex primals are considered easy by forums, and some savage tiers. Thordan ex is a high bar to not be considered faceroll.

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In Heavensward alone?
Bismarck EX
Ravana EX
Thordan EX
Nidhogg EX
Sephirot EX
Sophia EX
Zurvan EX

So...7. 3/7.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Fun police Riyah at it again. If you like something she doesn't you're objectively wrong.

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Oh hush, bourne asked me specifically if it would be fun if i could stun things. I said no, it wouldnt. If i tank, (which i do rarely) i can stun bosses if need be, but it's never particularly fun because of the short window to do it.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Oh hush, bourne asked me specifically if it would be fun if i could stun things. I said no, it wouldnt. If i tank, (which i do rarely) i can stun bosses if need be, but it's never particularly fun because of the short window to do it.

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Fair, but you made a declarative (X is not fun) not a personal (I don't find X fun) answer. That was where the confusion came from, my apologies.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Oh hush, bourne asked me specifically if it would be fun if i could stun things. I said no, it wouldnt. If i tank, (which i do rarely) i can stun bosses if need be, but it's never particularly fun because of the short window to do it.

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...I have a crazy idea. What if I transferred one of my characters over to your server, and we partied together for a little bit? I'd like to see things from your perspective. I'm not as good as most of the folks here on the forums, so you wouldn't have to worry about 'raider mentality'. Honestly, I want to understand your perspective on things - there's only so much words can tell.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

And sending people unprepared into other content where they'll hold back 3-7 other players is somehow better?
The MSQ being accessible is the reason why now when you load into O12 you'll have people who don't know how proximity markers work, people who don't know what their kits do, people who can't handle more than one mechanic at a time...
I had a DRK in O2 the other day who used GCDs so infrequently that you could actually see him auto attack 2 or 3 times in-between each one, and my only thoughts were "how the hell did he manage to get this far" and "him and his party are not going to have a good time by the time he reaches the higher Omega floors"

This is, first and foremost, a group game and if your performance isn't good enough to get through what the MSQ throws at you then you're most likely holding back anyone that plays with you, directly making the game more frustrating for them.

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As was pointed out earlier, the MSQ isn't there to prepare someone for raids. It's there to prepare them for the next stage of the MSQ.

It doesn't matter how hard SE makes the MSQ, those players will never be prepared for the difficulty of the optional content. But making it difficult will discourage them from continuing to pay for the game and help fund that optional difficult content you do want.

If you end up with someone in the group that can't handle things, then remove them from the group. Be polite about instead of being a jerk but remove them.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

This is a game where we have to play together to progress. If someone is going to get into Tsukuyomi story mode doing sub2k as a RDM (which I have seen more times than I care to count) then the game has utterly failed them and left them to exist as a burden on other players. That is not okay.

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And yet it's SE that sets the difficulty level for the MSQ content. The question becomes if that difficulty level is reasonable when it is their game design funneling players of all skill through it together.

Getting players invested in a story then telling they they can't continue with the story because they've hit their personal skill cap or comfort level for difficulty is a pretty crappy way to design a game that survives on subscription retention. All you do is turn away people who were otherwise happy to support the game financially.

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

If only there was an objective indicator of how well they were playing...
Shame.

I guess people will just have to be ignorant of their level of performance.

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Why I wish damage meters were a base part of a game UI. People need to have an objective measure so they'll know if they need to improve to enter into certain content. They can then choose to work to improve or accept that more difficult content is not right for them. Most people will understand they're holding a group back when presented with an objective measure of their performance.

It doesn't change that I don't feel that the MSQ is the appropriate place for skill tests to be implemented since it's mandatory for all character progression, even for players only interested in crafting and gathering.

The skill tests should come with the first encounter of the optional content. If you can't defeat the first, then you can't continue to the second and so on. Another option would be to expand Stone, Sky, Sea and The Circles of Answering into scored proving grounds. If the player fails to perform to a set standard there, they can't queue for the related duty. Groups created through Party Finder instead of Duty Finder are always free to remove a player at any time. You just can't be a jerk about doing it.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Why I wish damage meters were a base part of a game UI. People need to have an objective measure so they'll know if they need to improve to enter into certain content.

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Totally agree. But probably just a visual personal gauge, no numbers, just to tell us how smashing or lacking our DPS is in an instance. There's no harm in seeing oh, the needle on the meter's always between red and yellow or it hardly goes to red when I'm in X instance. Noticing something like that makes one rethink play style without having to be told.

Personally the content isn't harder in nature, just busier, like nobody can get past the content by just standing still and every movement has to have purpose, kills the mindless grind honestly.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

As was pointed out earlier, the MSQ isn't there to prepare someone for raids. It's there to prepare them for the next stage of the MSQ.

It doesn't matter how hard SE makes the MSQ, those players will never be prepared for the difficulty of the optional content. But making it difficult will discourage them from continuing to pay for the game and help fund that optional difficult content you do want.

And yet it's SE that sets the difficulty level for the MSQ content. The question becomes if that difficulty level is reasonable when it is their game design funneling players of all skill through it together.

Getting players invested in a story then telling they they can't continue with the story because they've hit their personal skill cap or comfort level for difficulty is a pretty crappy way to design a game that survives on subscription retention. All you do is turn away people who were otherwise happy to support the game financially.

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Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't echo applied if you fail too many times in MSQ? I think they have it for the job battles, too. So really if you can't do it with echo which already nerfs it by a large amount other than technical things like Return of the Bull but that's a one off so far, I'm not sure how they can accommodate people other than adding a "Skip battle?" button. So they already somewhat accommodate people that can't do it.

Honestly, considering the MSQ has trials and dungeons sometimes, it's more like they are preparing you for those so you have some idea what you are doing in actual group content since they are eventually part of the MSQ. The amount of times I've seen people run away with a stack marker and die in a corner by themselves has decreased since they started adding those to the solo battles.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

...I have a crazy idea. What if I transferred one of my characters over to your server, and we partied together for a little bit?

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You'd be wasting 25 bucks and moving away from your friends for no reason. I also do my own thing in game and am not looking to be "understood" in it. I don't recommend that, stay on aether with the people you know.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

Honestly, considering the MSQ has trials and dungeons sometimes, it's more like they are preparing you for those so you have some idea what you are doing in actual group content since they are eventually part of the MSQ. The amount of times I've seen people run away with a stack marker and die in a corner by themselves has decreased since they started adding those to the solo battles.

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Stack marker was added before SB I think, in the first quest battle with Gosetsu or something. I remember people being surprised that the ai could do that. The learning thing IDK, if so, it doesn't bode well for the future that story mode wants you to constantly dodge and deal with a pretty long multiphase fight ending in a dps check, for story mode. With the content in this patch, I'm worried they want to incrrease overall difficulty.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You'd be wasting 25 bucks and moving away from your friends for no reason. I also do my own thing in game and am not looking to be "understood" in it. I don't recommend that, stay on aether with the people you know.

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? Very few people know who I am currently in-game, actually. I also do my own thing, because I burned my Aether bridges, so I wouldn't have minded tossing this alt over there. I was honestly just offering my hand out as a way of in-game friendship, but so be it. Never let it be said that I didn't try.

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Originally Posted by Lorgana

Seriously I'd like to thank the Dev team for upping the difficulty even in the basic dungeons. If you can't handle basic mechanics idk go play candy crush or something.

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Huh? Dungeons and Alphascape (normal of course) are easy cakewalks, especially when almost everyone (keyword being ALMOST) is 370+ geared right now with bits of 380 on them, and while Suzaku EX is hard I see people already farming for it and it will only get easier within the weeks...

So what was hard again?

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I also do my own thing, because I burned my Aether bridges, so I wouldn't have minded tossing this alt over there.

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But I still think you're alright ;_;

Some people don't want the helping hand or want to be understood though, Kaiva.

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Originally Posted by SilverObi

But I still think you're alright ;_;

Some people don't want the helping hand or want to be understood though, Kaiva.

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'Tis true, and it was the second time I tried to befriend her in-game, so I def gave it a shot. Not too much of a big deal to me, since I have personal goals that may or may not run counter to theirs.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Stack marker was added before SB I think, in the first quest battle with Gosetsu or something. I remember people being surprised that the ai could do that. The learning thing IDK, if so, it doesn't bode well for the future that story mode wants you to constantly dodge and deal with a pretty long multiphase fight ending in a dps check, for story mode. With the content in this patch, I'm worried they want to incrrease overall difficulty.

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Hmm I don't know. When it comes to dps checks depending on your skill in the game you might need better gear/echo. That's why the gear exists, to bridge the gap. If you go in at say i340-i350, that's probably close to min ilvl where you would need to know how to play somewhat properly. i340-350 is 6 months - a year old gear at this point with the ceiling being at 400~. (Try doing The Burn with a group of i340 vs a group that is 360-370.)

Now you could say, let's tune it for min ilvl, everyone who has been playing will just roll over it easily, OR they could just remove the check by having an npc blow them up (like what happens in some of the other instances, but this time it's a 1v1) but the difficulty drops drastically.

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Originally Posted by Ramesses

Exactly... people just generally have to get more used to the dynamics of the mechanics. Its not really that hard... hardest battle I faced on launch day was actually Alphascape 3.0... that starboard cleave was not funny.

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I can agree with you there. I realized after all this time that where I placed the enemy's health bar on my screen was causing issues. My "Not Ready Yet" from my habit of pressing the next key quickly in a rotation was actually blocking the first Parr of the text for longer enemy cast bars, so I couldn't tell if he was casting starboard or larboard. Once I moved my bar, I stopped having issues. Lol.

The only thing "hard" about the mist dragon is tanks staying in the frost aoe (I learned the hard way and ofc lectured by my GF not to pull it so fast without her giving a few tips) and the DPS check with the 4 dragon add things. With ilevel entry, unless you have a very good healer to heal the aftermath and people having enough hp not to get oneshoted (my GF did a run without me as a healer who told me she healed though that once) That DPS check can wipe you, and honestly, that is the fault of the player for not knowing how to do rotations. If you pay attention to your teammates more, a LOT, AWFUL lot of pug players do not know how to do their rotations.

As for people killing the healer on that aoe move, well healer can dodge the player too, we all had to deal with that in the current 24 man. I really do not get why people would call this stuff too hard, you mean you expect to faceroll everything and never wipe while only hitting 1,1,1,1,1,1? Those are the type of players that cause wipes in this game, usually.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Then we're in pretty much full agreement.

Some difficulty is okay. I felt that Baelsar's Wall (even at release, before people got geared/sync'd) was a nice happy medium. Mr. Sloppy would wreck your face if you stood in the bad and didn't handle the chains. But yet, if you had a little bit of lag on the healer's part, it wasn't an insta-wipe either.

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I feel if you 2 think this dungeon is too hard for a MSQ, then why are rotations for some jobs "too hard"? How come those are not made easier? WHY should we have content so easy anyone can face roll it? I did not even find the mist dragon that hard, you wipe once or twice on new content, big deal , come a month when people are in i380+ more common, you see it faceroll just like the past.

I also feel you may feel that way from the lack of difficulty curve in the game, it should slowly get more difficult, starting at satasha, not get easier. Some people praise the vault for having a nice increase difficultly, but I question that when a healer can try MPK a rdm, the healer dies while doing this, and we kill the final boss in the vault with RDM heals. Does that really show difficulty scaling if a healer can goof around and die and still finish the last boss fight?

I'm genuinely impressed so many come out of the woodwork to defend such terrible players. This dungeon isn't end game, it isn't anything players haven't seen before, and somehow people want to encourage dead weight to make it through.

Sorry, no. This isn't a matter of git gud, this is a matter of don't even attempt anything this deep into the level cap while it's current if you're this unwilling to make yourself an asset to your party.

It's cancerous to make a hindrance of yourself to a party because you "just want to see the story."

YouTube it if you aren't willing to put in your share. You're owed nothing by other people.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

I'm genuinely impressed so many come out of the woodwork to defend such terrible players. This dungeon isn't end game, it isn't anything players haven't seen before, and somehow people want to encourage dead weight to make it through.

Sorry, no. This isn't a matter of git gud, this is a matter of don't even attempt anything this deep into the level cap while it's current if you're this unwilling to make yourself an asset to your party.

It's cancerous to make a hindrance of yourself to a party because you "just want to see the story."

YouTube it if you aren't willing to put in your share. You're owed nothing by other people.

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As someone who agrees with the general area of your opinion, your comments have been rather toxic and hostile. There is a reason that people call raiders elitists and it is because of people who hold opinions like yours. You are theoretically correct that these players need to improve, and the devs need to implement harder content to make sure that players improve, but the way you talk about these people is like you are looking down on them as if they are dirt on your boot.

As a savage raider who loves difficult content, please get off your high horse, for our sake if nobody else.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

As someone who agrees with the general area of your opinion, your comments have been rather toxic and hostile. There is a reason that people call raiders elitists and it is because of people who hold opinions like yours. You are theoretically correct that these players need to improve, and the devs need to implement harder content to make sure that players improve, but the way you talk about these people is like you are looking down on them as if they are dirt on your boot.

As a savage raider who loves difficult content, please get off your high horse, for our sake if nobody else.

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I haven't gone deep into Savage since Twintania was the bee's knees, not have I ever claimed to. Nor have I ever claimed to be a magnificent paragon of wisdom.

And I talk about these players because they are, as you said, dirt on my boots just because they are so inconsiderate of the rest of their party.

There is nothing controversial about this. A black mage with 3 actions in a minute deserves a kick, not a clear.

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It is just a game in the long run. People want to relax and have a good time. Most don't find pushing their limits too hard fun or relaxing, they find it stressful instead. It's effort they'd rather save for real life, where it actually matters.

Once they hit their personal wall, whether from ability or desire, they lose interest and quit. That's not good for the financial health of the game. The less money it makes, the less optional content like true hard modes a company can afford to create.

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QFT

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As was pointed out earlier, the MSQ isn't there to prepare someone for raids. It's there to prepare them for the next stage of the MSQ.

It doesn't matter how hard SE makes the MSQ, those players will never be prepared for the difficulty of the optional content. But making it difficult will discourage them from continuing to pay for the game and help fund that optional difficult content you do want.

If you end up with someone in the group that can't handle things, then remove them from the group. Be polite about instead of being a jerk but remove them.

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Getting players invested in a story then telling they they can't continue with the story because they've hit their personal skill cap or comfort level for difficulty is a pretty crappy way to design a game that survives on subscription retention. All you do is turn away people who were otherwise happy to support the game financially.

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As a casual(in terms of skill), I support increasing the difficulty to raise the general skill level. I'd like having in-game DPS meters etc. However,I know, I won't be tackling Savage content anytime soon.

It seems a lot of the more skilled players, simply don't get it that if you increase the difficulty of MSQ content too much, it is quite possible, the people who just want to glam, craft/gather/socialise might cancel their subs.

Look at how much people spend on the Mog Station outfits. This game has an amazing world and awesome non-combat content which is often gated by MSQ.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

As someone who agrees with the general area of your opinion, your comments have been rather toxic and hostile. There is a reason that people call raiders elitists and it is because of people who hold opinions like yours. You are theoretically correct that these players need to improve, and the devs need to implement harder content to make sure that players improve, but the way you talk about these people is like you are looking down on them as if they are dirt on your boot.

As a savage raider who loves difficult content, please get off your high horse, for our sake if nobody else.

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As someone who is a savage raider as well, I have to say that there is a point where the developers have to actually push players to try to at least understand the game that they've designed for them. The current status quo is awful as hell. The balance of difficulty throughout the entire game is lopsided at best because a significant subset of the community keeps on insisting that the skill floor never be raised. Then you have DPS mains scratching their heads and wondering why more people don't main tank or healer classes for faster queues.

It'll only be worse as the DPS gap widens with the inevitable stat bloat, and the differences in player skill translate into occurrences that don't even require a parser to measure.

This game survived Steps of Faith, Wiping City, and has recently survived Ridorana. The community will adapt if it has to. To anyone that insists that the community cannot, that perhaps says a lot more about your complete lack of faith in your fellow players than anything else.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

There is nothing controversial about this. A black mage with 3 actions in a minute deserves a kick, not a clear.

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Nobody in here is talking about "BLM with 3 actions in a minute" level of play, we're talking about people who are at least trying to put forth an effort to complete the content but for whatever reason, aren't doing well enough.

I think the dungeon difficulty is good, like hard but doable. and the normal mode things in general I think are upped in difficulty and its fun. But maybe cause i'm trying to pug savage or maybe cause I suck idk, but haven't been able to clear o9s cause someone everytime is a few degress the wrong way and gets knocked back the wrong way. in my personal opinion there is a difference between hard content and just making things badly designed to be hard. idk how the other 3 savage fights are so I can't comment, like having to get knocked back while facing a certain direction while position directly in a straight line is just silly controller-wise, like am I wrong? I just think there is an issue when everyone knows the mechanics are playing very well and still wipe due to knicking your analog stick/keyboard for a fraction of a second on accident. idk maybe I'm just the sort of person who likes monster-hunter esque/rhythm/reading the boss/reflex-esque difficulty.

like suzaku ex I like cause you gotta look around and use your brain and reflexs to dodge the incoming ground aoes, to me that's fun, and if I die its usually obviously my fault, and i'm like ah yea I can do that better, instead of whelp screw you game.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Nobody in here is talking about "BLM with 3 actions in a minute" level of play, we're talking about people who are at least trying to put forth an effort to complete the content but for whatever reason, aren't doing well enough.

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Then they can try harder. Mist dragon is nothing other than a reasonable level of difficulty for the story, and if people have terrible with it they need some remedial lessons to catch up on things they're expected to know at this point.

Like sometimes, you don't watch for orange markers. You look for things that cause orange markers, and adjust before it's too late.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Then they can try harder. Mist dragon is nothing other than a reasonable level of difficulty for the story, and if people have terrible with it they need some remedial lessons to catch up on things they're expected to know at this point.

Like sometimes, you don't watch for orange markers. You look for things that cause orange markers, and adjust before it's too late.

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While I agree with your general opinion, overall with the posts you've made the last page or so, this is slightly discouraging because it's as if you're saying some of us aren't trying hard enough. Can only speak from personal experience at this point, but I myself am trying my damndest. While I know I am not one of those players with 3 casts per minute, sometimes I do have panic moments when something catches me off guard.

By your post, players like me should be kicked. While not exactly wrong, it's disheartening to say the least.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It is just a game in the long run. People want to relax and have a good time. Most don't find pushing their limits too hard fun or relaxing, they find it stressful instead. It's effort they'd rather save for real life, where it actually matters.

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Which I can agree and understand with towards some degree, but what do you do when you've had to explain to the same person five times in a row not to stand somewhere....and they end up standing there every time. At some point, something has to give because no one is having fun when the same person or more is being detrimental towards the rest of the players because of the gap in skill levels.

I can't tell you how many Tsukuyomi EX runs I've been in that we're to start off as fun for me and everyone, but ended up painful because people who claimed to be good couldn't even do basic things.

I want to relax and have fun too and not have my effort go to waste either, :<

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

While I agree with your general opinion, overall with the posts you've made the last page or so, this is slightly discouraging because it's as if you're saying some of us aren't trying hard enough. Can only speak from personal experience at this point, but I myself am trying my damndest. While I know I am not one of those players with 3 casts per minute, sometimes I do have panic moments when something catches me off guard.

By your post, players like me should be kicked. While not exactly wrong, it's disheartening to say the least.

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My issue is with people wanting to nerf a fight that might occasionally cause a wipe because that's icky and mean to the people that just want to play a visual novel. You, personally, don't seem to have this issue-- and instead, you've tried to go out of your way to improve (or you appear to; forum posting doesn't go very far). As I mentioned to you before, find someone that can help guide you out of the mistakes you're making, or toss me a tell if you ever find yourself on the best server (it's Goblin obv).

As for kicking? In extreme cases, if a single person is holding the rest of the party back? Absolutely boot. Boot boot boot.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Creating 5man groups with 2 healers wouldn't solve anything. They'd have to retune dungeons to justify 2 healers beyond just the ability of one healer to raise another. There would also be a significant increase in queue times. Creating a greater demand for healers doesn't create more players willing to heal.

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This is essentially what my response to Lambdafish was saying.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

My issue is with people wanting to nerf a fight that might occasionally cause a wipe because that's icky and mean to the people that just want to play a visual novel. You, personally, don't seem to have this issue-- and instead, you've tried to go out of your way to improve (or you appear to; forum posting doesn't go very far). As I mentioned to you before, find someone that can help guide you out of the mistakes you're making, or toss me a tell if you ever find yourself on the best server (it's Goblin obv).

As for kicking? In extreme cases, if a single person is holding the rest of the party back? Absolutely boot. Boot boot boot.

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At one point, I would have shared the same sentiments. Now? I dunno. I appreciate the difficulty increase, nonetheless lately. I don't feel that anything in SB should be nerfed (save for a needed QoL improvement that is Starboard/Larboard...but is that really a nerf?).

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Which I can agree and understand with towards some degree, but what do you do when you've had to explain to the same person five times in a row not to stand somewhere....and they end up standing there every time. At some point, something has to give because no one is having fun when the same person or more is being detrimental towards the rest of the players because of the gap in skill levels.

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If you end up with someone in the group that can't handle things, then remove them from the group. Be polite about instead of being a jerk but remove them.

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I can't tell you how many Tsukuyomi EX runs I've been in that we're to start off as fun for me and everyone, but ended up painful because people who claimed to be good couldn't even do basic things.

I want to relax and have fun too and not have my effort go to waste either, :<

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Tsukuyomi Ex is optional content and players should already be aware that expectations are higher in stuff like Extreme Primals. So kicks for non-performance should also be the norm/expected/more frequent.

OP is talking about basic dungeons and some of us are talking about MSQ content. MSQ is not content that's meant to be repeated for those who just want to access the latest non-Expert/non-Extreme/non-Savage content/non-combat content.

MSQ does not prepare people for harder content.

Have advanced versions of the Hall of the Novice:

1. Hall for Extreme Primals
2. Hall of the Raider

And make these difficult enough so that if you can't clear them solo,you don't have access to Extreme Primals, Savage content.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

No, it wouldn't, especially on trash. Isolating the one mob you need to stun is not fun. Maybe on bosses, but you can't really react fast enough if the stunner fails to do so. The more tactics you add, the more ways players can fail, and apparently you can't trust the players to do well with easy content now. Why on earth add more?

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Because it had a layer of actual strategy to an otherwise standard fight? Leg Sweep may as well not exist with how utterly worthless stuns are in this game. One aspect I love about Deep Dungeon is needing Stuns and Silences at the ready because mobs on the higher floors will ruin your day. It's far more interesting than pulling everything to an arbitrary wall and spamming your aoe abilities until they all die. At least it is for me.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

3 fights out of how many?

And a lot of ex primals are considered easy by forums, and some savage tiers. Thordan ex is a high bar to not be considered faceroll.

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Do you have selective reading? I listed no less than eight fights. Even counting only the EX Primals, Dual covered only three of them are "faceroll." Nonetheless, a lot of the EX Primals in Stormblood are easy, relatively speaking. Lakshmi and Byakko are especially bad. The forums say it's all easy doesn't magically mean they aren't wrong. People saying such typically use older primals as a frame of reference.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Yeah, I have. The problem is they increased the speed of incoming damage, so when i try to slowball it, the dps can now die from an attack that they could survive if topped off. And the mechanics that affect us all are now faster and rely on greater raid positioning and awareness, so they take hits more often. The bosses feel slightly tuned a bit more, so they also take more damage with more spent in mp. I'm generally aware of overhealing and stuff, but when attacks now start doing 26k damage or more stacked, when it was 14k, you're gambling a lot more on raid members keeping themselves up. If i gamble wrong, and they die to damage they could survive, it doesn't matter if i did 500 more dps when they do 500 less due to raise penalty.

And honestly, the least appealing thing in the world are this game's ex trials. By the time I've cleared, I'm so sick of the thing that I don't even care about the mounts. The idea that casuals are just chomping at the bit to get into them is hilarious to me, how you feel about pagos is how some feel about them.

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No offense, but it sounds like you need more practice experimenting with what you can get away with. Alphascape normal isn't not tuned that drastically higher than its predecessors. Nevertheless, there comes a point where people dying isn't your fault. If they keep getting hit by Larboard/Starboard in o11n, there is only so much a healer can do. If they die, well, it's on them. Holding back your DPS spells in case people mess up will only make you a complacent healer, which, ironically, makes adapting to a given situation much harder. Back in HW, I often find "pure healers" far worse at healing than DPS centric ones. Why? Because only the latter knew how to maximize their heals whereas the former burned through the MP panicking and couldn't adapt.

While you may feel that way. I grow increasingly disappointed with some of them. Shinryu feels incomplete, Lakshmi and Byakko are laughable, and while I enjoy Susano quite a bit, he's fairly easy. Tsukiyomi is probably the best designed, though I have yet to do Suzaku EX. That being said, I never said casuals were "chomping at the bit," I simply preferred when EXs weren't an afterthought that die within a lockout. This another reason I want the normal modes to be more challenging, that way people who aren't interested in harder content still have something to look forward to. And if they find EX too daunting a task, they're not bored with the easier alternative. Instead, we see people whining everything is too hard and have an expansion where all the optional raider content got nerfed save for arguably two Savage fights and Ultimate.

Keep in mind, you may find EXs a slog but plenty enjoy them. Comparing them to Pagos is laughably disingenuous. There's a stark difference between mindlessly grinding brain dead trash mobs and actually being asked to turn your brain on.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

No, shin was just a jump up. I usually compare it to nid story, especially the add phases. I mean, 3 mobs with one wandering for Nid, 3 sets of adds with 3 meteor drops that can easily kill players with shin. But this is the faceroll thing again, you can't even say it was harder, because peopel jump on you over it.

And it doesn't matter if gradual, you still reach a point where you bow out. Its just better that its in ex content than in story, because the former doesn't gate content for people.

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Because it wasn't hard. That doesn't mean it isn't a good difficulty for story mode. You seem to have this strange belief those things are mutually exclusive. Neither Shinryu nor Nidhogg are hard unless you're wholly inexperienced. They are, however, properly tuned for a story fight.

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Originally Posted by Lorgana

Seriously I'd like to thank the Dev team for upping the difficulty even in the basic dungeons. If you can't handle basic mechanics idk go play candy crush or something.

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The Mist Dragon is the closest the game has been to a 2.00 launch MSQ difficulty in a long time. Is it a bit unforgiving? Yes. Git gud? Maybe? The fact that it wasn't an immediate face roll unlike The Swallows Compass which healers could sleep through at release, probably gave players the impression that it was going to be another easy thing.

When everyone is overgeared again, it will again become a faceroll, like everything. Once the content isn't current, the echo takes care of it.

Honestly what I want for 5.0 is for the Echo switch from an automatic thing to a party toggle ("Activate The Echo Y/N?") and do not permit a vote abandon if the echo is used.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

Tsukuyomi Ex is optional content and players should already be aware that expectations are higher in stuff like Extreme Primals. So kicks for non-performance should also be the norm/expected/more frequent.

OP is talking about basic dungeons and some of us are talking about MSQ content. MSQ is not content that's meant to be repeated for those who just want to access the latest non-Expert/non-Extreme/non-Savage content/non-combat content.

MSQ does not prepare people for harder content.

Have advanced versions of the Hall of the Novice:

1. Hall for Extreme Primals
2. Hall of the Raider

And make these difficult enough so that if you can't clear them solo,you don't have access to Extreme Primals, Savage content.

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Well, the same can be said for basic dungeons as well. If I'm spending my own [X] amount of time inside said dungeon to relax and have fun, then I shouldn't have to deal with a tank/healer/or DPS who wants to watch Netflix instead. I expect anyone walking into Expert roulette to have A) the time to do it B) the patience to do it without multi-tasking and C) knowledge of your job at level 70 with the appropriate gear.

I'm not asking for them to jump through hoops of fire with this. Expert dungeons lose their fun factor when you have less skilled players not taking it or their jobs seriously like the rest of the party might be, and then proceed to waste your time so long as they get to have fun their way.

It's a two-way street, the entire party dictates how the time is spent, not just one person. If the person doesn't want to be judged for their own personal skills, I'd say run with FC members or friends who also agree with that sort of setting and overall mindset.

But, when I queue I expect a basic level of competency in order to have fun, not a "let's just chill and wipe three times because it's just a video game, man".

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It is just a game in the long run. People want to relax and have a good time. Most don't find pushing their limits too hard fun or relaxing, they find it stressful instead. It's effort they'd rather save for real life, where it actually matters.

Once they hit their personal wall, whether from ability or desire, they lose interest and quit. That's not good for the financial health of the game. The less money it makes, the less optional content like true hard modes a company can afford to create.

Do you really want additional content lost for the sake of pushing a more difficult MSQ? Do you really want it ending up like Wildstar?

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It is just a game, something a lot of people here haven't brought up. However, what I'd like to point out that the experience of other players is directly connected to the combination of their interactions with the content and the player base. Claiming that this is what will keep the game healthy is one thing, but saying that we should let this dumb idea of "if I can't get past it I quit and that's it," be heard more than asking for more difficulty (which, btw, is probably just as unhealthy an attitude for the health of this game as people who are toxic) is not healthy.

Let's be 100% perfectly honest here. Because there's no way to really gauge personal input, it's very likely that these people can and will leave at the first dungeon they wipe on several times, regardless of if it was their fault or someone who was just as bad if not worse than them, which, despite how easy some of the dungeons before these were, can happen. I know you said you support damage gauge's, but here that's more of an anti-casual opinion there because it's far more likely to scare away the story-only casuals.

I'd also like to point out supporting those attitudes negatively affects the non-casual experience because they have to deal with the people who don't want to improve, and we have to deal with the easy no-challenge content. And in a multiplayer-focused game there needs to be some challenge to keep the more skilled players (like mid-core) playing the content to help the newer and more casual players to help them get through it. If the casual players leave, they lose a lot of players right. But since you know that is harmful, you should know the opposite is just as harmful. They lose a lot of customers if the mid-core or hardcore players stop subscribing just as well.

Do you really want content pushed over difficulty? You can't win either way. So they have to pick their middle-grounds very wisely, and I feel like they have even if you don't.

Also, if they want to not be challenged and not push themselves to be better... they can play a single player game. They can play a visual novel if they really find challenge too much and prefer story. They can watch video playthroughs or streams if they want the story for this game but not the effort they'd have to put in. There's many different options out there.

I liked the difficulty, actually. I'm as casual as can be (mom with 4 boys) and just beat this last night. My first run in, the dragon didn't kill me, but killed the 2 dps since one was lagging a bit. I was the only first timer (PLD tank), but that lag and I guess a lil late responses made the dps die, then the healer somehow died, and I was left standing for the 2nd and 3rd tries. I also realized that I needed to save my high damage rotation in sword oath for the 4 dragon heads to help out killing them (I'm a noob and often don't think of killing adds as much as just getting enmity on them). Anyways, with a patient and kind healer and 2 lovely FC dps, we cleared it on the 5th boss try. I think people give up way too easily sometimes -- they need a more 'Dark Souls' like attitude where you learn from defeat and just push on :)

To me, this Burn dungeon and even the new Arboretum are pretty fun - and give people the chance to learn things about their jobs and maybe even new situational awareness they may have not needed in the past ;) which, in the long run, makes them better players ^^ IMHO, Shinryu was a far greater hindrance to MSQ completion since you were locked out of upgraded tome gear and stuck with the quest level gear until you beat it or at least joined a party with people who had already done it and were a lil overgeared.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

As someone who is a savage raider as well, I have to say that there is a point where the developers have to actually push players to try to at least understand the game that they've designed for them. The current status quo is awful as hell. The balance of difficulty throughout the entire game is lopsided at best because a significant subset of the community keeps on insisting that the skill floor never be raised. Then you have DPS mains scratching their heads and wondering why more people don't main tank or healer classes for faster queues.

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I absolutely 100% agree. That wasn't the point of my post. My post was in regards to Van's post, where it seemed like removing the players from the game was as good a solution to the devs forcing them to learn. Ultimately the players can only share part of the blame, it is the duty of the devs to make sure that players are conditioned to pay attention, and expect wipes. Instead what we get is a flip-flop of ideals. Having a hardcore game is fine, having a casual game is fine, but when you are subliminally being told by the dev team "You are expected to work hard" and also "This game is for casual players so we will nerf content so you can participate in anything too hard for you" at the same time, you can see why people are frustrated across the board. The devs just need to stick to their guns and actually keep content consistent.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Well, the same can be said for basic dungeons as well. If I'm spending my own [X] amount of time inside said dungeon to relax and have fun, then I shouldn't have to deal with a tank/healer/or DPS who wants to watch Netflix instead...

...But, when I queue I expect a basic level of competency in order to have fun, not a "let's just chill and wipe three times because it's just a video game, man".

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I consider Expert, optional content, as I've previously stated. I think 'Expert' should actually be "Expert" in terms of difficulty; not basic dungeon with higher iLvl requirements.

And just as with the proposed advanced Hall of Extreme Primal/Hall of the Raider, there should be some kind of similar gate before people are permitted to enter Expert content.

Lastly, as I quoted previously, this applies to basic/MSQ dungeons:

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If you end up with someone in the group that can't handle things, then remove them from the group. Be polite about instead of being a jerk but remove them.

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There's is a system in place to deal with non-performers.

Is it perfect?

No.

But I don't see people using it often enough.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

I consider Expert, optional content, as I've previously stated. I think 'Expert' should actually be "Expert" in terms of difficulty; not basic dungeon with higher iLvl requirements.

And just as with the proposed advanced Hall of Extreme Primal/Hall of the Raider, there should be some kind of similar gate before people are permitted to enter Expert content.

Lastly, as I quoted previously, this applies to basic/MSQ dungeons:



There's is a system in place to deal with non-performers.

Is it perfect?

No.

But I don't see people using it often enough.

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I agree with mostly everything you've said except Expert roulette being considered as optional content, mostly because there's no other way for casuals to grind and get their weekly tomestones if they want to upgrade their gear without going through Savage means.

I'd consider Savage the optional one to be honest since it's a means towards better gear, but you don't necessarily need that gear if you're not going to progress through the tiers themselves or anything harder than Expert Roulette.