Tank Stance

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Originally Posted by Mixt

I have seen far too many tanks get killed in situations where the extra mitigation from tank stance would have saved them.
But nope, it's better to die than to compromise your damage output apparantly.

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Those tanks usually messed up their CDs or took avoidable damage. As someone who drops tank stance as early as possible, I've never needed it to survive unless I or someone else messed up.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

This is not a game where everyone has to DPS, that is just raider meta being taken too seriously. The design is pretty clear. Yoshi-P stated that they design every fight without healer DPS taken into account. They removed the bonus points with this intent as well, and the ability to put "wrong materia" on gear was also nerfed so that tanks can't be better DPS.

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Need I remind you have the Phantom Train run once again? You know, the one where I was literally useless because I did nothing except heal. Intent matters little when gameplay functionality works differently. If the developers truly didn't want healers or tank to deal damage, they should make content so hilariously easy a healer can spend 80% doing absolutely nothing if they aren't DPSing.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If you're playing the roles as designed, the enmity reduction skills are things that you shouldn't need to use, because you only get to use them once then they're on a cooldown, where as the tank's basic skills all generate more enmity than DPS players basic skills. Hence they are designed for a mechanic where the tank can not get enmity immediately (Eg add phases), and not for the tank to sit there in DPS stance to minmax their DPS. If a tank is telling you to use your enmity reduction skills in lieu of them actually tanking, then the tank is a bad tank. The only bad tanks I run into are those that are undergeared, because, again, PotD.

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Diversion is an aggro suppression skill, thereby it's only useful when DPS are dealing high amounts of damage. Hence why good players utilize it in their openers, you know, when you're generating the highest enmity possible. Claiming players shouldn't need to use this ability only highlights how little you understand, though that has always been apparent since you don't even do content outside of dungeons. And, of course, any criticism towards your "playstyle" is immediately dismissed as "raider meta" or "toxicity" because the all holy Kisai knows all. You know what takes forever? Standing around doing next to zero damage. How do you manage trials like Lahskmi in 4.1 or the ghosts in Phantom Train?

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Originally Posted by addz3

Secondly diversion isn't really the be all and end all for enmity control. It's like a 2 min CD isn't it? And any dps is going to out dps a tank, that's why they have enmity boosting combos and stances. If they aren't used then they are a bad tank. End off.

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Diversion is a 90% reduction on your personal enmity for 30 seconds every 120 seconds; it’s ridiculously good. Using it on cooldown does wonders for both yourself and your tank. Refusal to use it because it’s “not my job to management aggro” is just refusal to be a team player.
As a BRD main who has broken 12k in their opening burst, I would love something like Diversion. Ironically, it was originally called Quelling Strikes, and was an Archer skill. Halving my enmity with Refresh/Tacitian has quite often not been nearly enough, since BRD bursts essentially every 80 seconds. And it really is poor design to tie an enmity dump to something that supposed to be used for party support.

WARs have enmity skills that they can use outside of tank stance (Onslaught, BB combo), but if everyone is managing their enmity properly and utilizing their enmity reduction/queller/dumps, there is very little need for a good WAR to touch either unless there is a massive discrepancy in gear. Obviously a level 68 WAR in leveling gear is going to struggle against a geared level 70 DPS, even in level-synced content; hence why the level 70 should rotate their enmity management tools accordingly to make things easier. The same goes for other tanks as well—DRK’s enmity multipliers are absolutely ridiculous since the 4.3 changes.


I won’t disagree that there are terrible tanks out there; I’ve met them. But it is equally terrible on a DPS’ part to just blatantly refuse to manage their own aggro—be it out of a “it’s not my job” mentality, or an “I’m mad at this tank for being bad” mentality.

:confused: What's with those DPS who think the entire world is against them while they could simply press one single button and end of the story.

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Originally Posted by addz3

It's like a 2 min CD isn't it? And any dps is going to out dps a tank, that's why they have enmity boosting combos and stances. If they aren't used then they are a bad tank. End off.

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You will always have Diversion available for every boss encounter. No dungeon pull in between takes less than two minutes, and you aren't going to need it on trash since tanks typically rotate their stances due to the high damage when mass pulling. On Warrior, I can easily hold aggro simply pulling with...

Unchained -> Tomahawk -> Equilibrium -> Heavy Swing -> Deliverance

With geared DPS, you may actually need to do a Butcher's Block combo, but only if your own gear isn't comparably as high.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Diversion is a 90% reduction on your personal enmity for 30 seconds every 120 seconds; it’s ridiculously good. Using it on cooldown does wonders for both yourself and your tank. Refusal to use it because it’s “not my job to management aggro” is just refusal to be a team player.

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Not only that, but it's also part of the DPS job to manage their aggro. Usually, the good tanks like to switch stance to dps some more. But if you don't manage your aggro, the tank can't switch resulting in a dps loss for the party. Plus, it probably won't be fun for the tank that will try to keep the aggro when the DPS are using their opener.

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Originally Posted by Asiragan

Not only that, but it's also part of the DPS job to manage their aggro.

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I guess those who don't are people who "play dps because they don't want responsabilities". :rolleyes:
That's hard to hear that everyone is responsible for a lot of thing in a party.

Is it really ? Well then alright. Dps are responsible for damage, tank for holding aggro, and healer for keeping everyone alive. Well then, why would I bother use 70% of my WAR/PLD/DRK skills ? I mean, I could just use aggro combo. Why bother using CDs when it's the healer's role to keep me alive ?

Grow up.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

That minmax DPS meta does not work for tanks, and does not work for healers, and thus if you want a tank or healer in the party, just be quiet and take when you get from the duty finder.

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It works for me when I'm tanking. Works for me when I'm healing too... Hmm... :thinking:

But honestly - just shut up and accept what you get in the Duty Finder? Cool! Hey OP of this thread, Kisai thinks you should stop complaining and just take what you get from the duty finder!

Frankly I agree. This is stupid. If you used your enmity reduction skills properly and weren't needlessly spamming healing on people who didn't need it then the fault lies with the tank. If you didn't use enmity CDs correctly/at all or spammed heals any time anyone took damage... yeah, then it's your fault if you take a tankbuster to the face.

This isn't rocket science. I don't get why this thread is 9 pages long. Case closed.

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Originally Posted by Mixt

I have seen far too many tanks get killed in situations where the extra mitigation from tank stance would have saved them.
But nope, it's better to die than to compromise your damage output apparantly.

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Do you understand how WAR tank stance works? It's a bit more health and a passive buff to healing recieved. There is no built-in mitigation. Everything does the same amount of damage to a WAR in Defiance that it would do in Deliverance.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

Yeah but if SE intended for tanks to use nothing but tank stance, why would Shield Oath not be at 30, or even 15 like I mentioned? Why even have Sword Oath before 50 if there's no content requiring 2 tanks before that point?

And SB release was just a mess for many classes, I think it's safe to say the devs did a lot of experimenting that didn't pan out quite like how they envisioned it.

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Bcs every job before lvl 30 dont have enough skills to be a threat, level 30-40 is where many dps start to get tools to rise they dps more that tanks and healers.

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Originally Posted by shao32

Bcs every job before lvl 30 dont have enough skills to be a threat, level 30-40 is where many dps start to get tools to rise they dps more that tanks and healers.

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Anecdotal.

Virtually every time I get a lower level instance if I do leveling roulette on RDM for tomes I wind up yanking off the tank, but please tell me about how every job under 30 can't do that.

Your oversimplification here does nothing to answer Ameela's question.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Virtually every time I get a lower level instance if I do leveling roulette on RDM for tomes I wind up yanking off the tank, but please tell me about how every job under 30 can't do that.

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It just means your tank doesn't use enough Flash/Overpower/Unleash...which is understandable from the tank PoV because it's boring...or you purposefuly attack a different target than him.

Also for Ameela...Shield Oath is at 30. And stances are not at 15 because they are designed as Job skills.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Also for Ameela...Shield Oath is at 30. And stances are not at 15 because they are designed as Job skills.

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Could be wrong, but I think they were talking about how pre-Stormblood, Sword Oath was at 30 and Shield wasn’t until level 40. It’s not the case now, obviously, but I think they were talking about “back in the day”.

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Originally Posted by addz3

I find that more than not, warriors are the worst tanks for actual tanking in their tank stance. Is there some trait in the warrior tool bag that makes the player an arrogant douche that I wasn't aware of?

I would like to ask SE to take out the dps stance for group play. NERF the shit out of it so it's mainly for solo play like cleric stance back in the day. Before they increased enmity for tank moves this would of been more welcome but at least tanks would be.... err....tanks. Or just make WAR a dps.

Bring on the onslaught of pro dps for tanks, idc. Tanks should tank and not be worrying about dps. Save the rhetoric of dps = enmity and dps should manage enmity and all that. We've heard it all before.

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Now, one bad experience shouldn't condemn all of us...That being said. There's two sides of this story.



How well was the tank geared to begin with? Were the DPS effectively using their aggro dumping moves? Was the healer overhealing/using their aggro dump moves?

I'm leaning towards a poorly geared tank since that can make it harder to hold aggro in DPS stance.

However if properly geared, a warrior can hold aggro in dps stance if they maintain their rotations. Tank stance is only necessary for the opener then drop it right after. But it does fall also on the dps and heals to maintain their own aggro as well. They all have tools to do so, to not do so will bring down the rest of the team. It is a team game after all. So no, you won't see them drop the dps stances for tanks. I get your angry but this is silly.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It just means your tank doesn't use enough Flash/Overpower/Unleash...which is understandable from the tank PoV because it's boring...or you purposefuly attack a different target than him.

Also for Ameela...Shield Oath is at 30. And stances are not at 15 because they are designed as Job skills.

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Not really. From levels 20 to 30 it is really easy to lose agro. It is an odd area of leveling/sycn where the amount of damage, on two equally geared players, can take agro from a tank easily. Once a tank typically has their stances at 30 it fixes this problem.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

It’s not the case now, obviously, but I think they were talking about “back in the day”.

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But back in the day, it was a wrong move, and by changing it, they acknowledged it was. SE can just be very late in making obvious fix.

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Originally Posted by Kayiko

From levels 20 to 30 it is really easy to lose agro.

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It's only my personal experience, but I had no issue keeping aggro unless the two DPS attack two different targets every time. And I think that's supposed to teach you that you should mark targets.

Besides, since stances are job skills, I don't really understand how the 20-30 period advocate anything about what stance you should use.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

But back in the day, it was a wrong move, and by changing it, they acknowledged it was. SE can just be very late in making obvious fix.

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I never said it wasn’t.

I'm still leveling my Warrior, but I try to gauge how the group is doing and adjust from there.

I've had groups where I get aggro and can use DPS stance without issue. I've had groups where a DPS severely outlevels and outgears my Warrior and I have to not only use Defiance, but occasionally use my aggro combo.

A good tank adjusts to the needs of the group, imo.

Then again, I come from the old school train of thought that a tank is a tank first and then you get away with any DPS you feel safe getting away with.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Anecdotal.

Virtually every time I get a lower level instance if I do leveling roulette on RDM for tomes I wind up yanking off the tank, but please tell me about how every job under 30 can't do that.

Your oversimplification here does nothing to answer Ameela's question.

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Before level 30 every tank have half emity combo, a skill to Buff they damage (berserk,ect) an aoe And a ranged pull tool, they are only 2 reasons why a tank can loose agro there, 1 its dont use they skills proerly and y see a lot like spaming the agro skill only without following the combo or never using they buffs, And the other one is gear, gear are more important in lowerleves specially high gear sinc is a bit more better, tank stances are unnecesary there, you dont have anything more that agro skills, you just need to read the skill description

For me at least, theres no shame in hopping back into tank stance so I can gain an enmity lead back if my party members are climbing up the enmity list. When I gain that lead back though, I do go back into my dps stance.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It just means your tank doesn't use enough Flash/Overpower/Unleash...which is understandable from the tank PoV because it's boring...or you purposefuly attack a different target than him.

Also for Ameela...Shield Oath is at 30. And stances are not at 15 because they are designed as Job skills.

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Maybe read the post I was responding to - they specifically said that tanks don't have tank stance before 30 because no one would rip off of them even without tank stance on. I corrected them because even as someone who is fairly on top of their enmity I routinely do pull off of those tanks even without a wealth of abilities to bolster my dps. RDM's have a 300 potency attack every other hit. What I was responding to was blatantly wrong, just like you're wrong if you're suggesting tanks use their AoE threat generatos in a single-target situation.

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Originally Posted by Kanitezz

For me at least, theres no shame in hopping back into tank stance so I can gain an enmity lead back if my party members are climbing up the enmity list. When I gain that lead back though, I do go back into my dps stance.

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Perfectly reasonable.

I think some of you are misinterpreting the point I was trying to make. Or maybe it was my crap explanation. Tanks who refuse to use their enmity tools or stances to control enmity are crap. There's no need to do it. There's no need to lose enmity. Yes... we all know that other jobs have 1 or 2 abilities to help with enmity, and use them they should. However tanks have more because it's their role to control enmity. I fail to see how many of you can't understand basic fundamentals of a 3 job battle system. If a tank wants to go nuts on dps go for it, but not at the sacrifice of enmity because then they become useless. I suggested they nerf stances in PARTICULAR situations so you don't have chaos in situations because a tank would rather dps than control enmity.

On another topic the intent for stances could be better defined. However when they have penalties of swapping between stances such as high mp usage for DRK or just simply a long cool down. Why would these exist if it was intended for tanks to swap continuously. It is my belief like others have suggested that it was designed so you have a stance in content and a stance for soloing. It isn't that way but that's a design aspect which could get changed down the line maybe. The min max dps for tanks has always been an "issue" and will probably remain

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

What I was responding to was blatantly wrong, just like you're wrong if you're suggesting tanks use their AoE threat generatos in a single-target situation.

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If you have some trigger happy DPS, it's better for enmity to use some AoE enmity skills at the beginning even on a single target, since the first step of the enmity combo has no bonus.

So, again, if you take aggro from your tank, it means he does something wrong.

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Originally Posted by addz3

I think some of you are misinterpreting the point I was trying to make. Or maybe it was my crap explanation. Tanks who refuse to use their enmity tools or stances to control enmity are crap. There's no need to do it. There's no need to lose enmity. Yes... we all know that other jobs have 1 or 2 abilities to help with enmity, and use them they should. However tanks have more because it's their role to control enmity. I fail to see how many of you can't understand basic fundamentals of a 3 job battle system. If a tank wants to go nuts on dps go for it, but not at the sacrifice of enmity because then they become useless. I suggested they nerf stances in PARTICULAR situations so you don't have chaos in situations because a tank would rather dps than control enmity.

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People have reacted poorly to your suggestion because it's unnecessary and, frankly, nonsensical. Jobs aren't balanced around content where this is even an issue because any healer or dps in Savage worth their spot uses all the enmity tools at their disposal to make their tank's life easier since it costs them nothing or next to nothing.

You got someone in more casual content who either expected too much competence from their party (anticipated you all using enmity reduction skills and you didn't) or just didn't know how to play their class. Neither of those things mean the natural conclusion to jump to is "Nerf tank DPS stances!!!1" they just mean watch your enmity better and sometimes people suck.

Basically like... move on?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If you have some trigger happy DPS, it's better for enmity to use some AoE enmity skills at the beginning even on a single target, since the first step of the enmity combo has no bonus.

So, again, if you take aggro from your tank, it means he does something wrong.

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No, you should not be doing this. Even in Sastasha you have Tomohawk or the PLD/DRK equivalent - that is what you are pulling with, not Overpower/Flash/DRK Aoething. It is literally not a thing. Stop misinforming people please.

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Do you understand how WAR tank stance works? It's a bit more health and a passive buff to healing recieved. There is no built-in mitigation. Everything does the same amount of damage to a WAR in Defiance that it would do in Deliverance.

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And that extra health and healing received would have made all the difference in those cases.

I mean, the "Little bit" of extra health (25%) means it's going to take a few more hits to down you, and the healing received up helps a great deal, it's on par with Convalescence, makes it way easier for the healer to keep you up when you are getting gangbanged by a ludicrous number of mobs because you decided to pull big.

But no, gotta do the biggest possible pulls in DPS stance, doesn't matter if the healer can't keep up without a little extra help.
Cue the epidemic of dead tanks in Levelling Roulette that i experienced back when i was levelling my other classes.
Maybe i'm just unlucky, but it was like some kind of bad running gag.

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Originally Posted by Nockvryca

No, I would say the warrior was doing a good job. Get initial threat. It's a party responsibility for aggro. All dps and healers have tools that they should be using to manipulate their aggro. That is how you play tank in this game, you get aggro, then you dps.

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Great reply. I mean those skills aka diversion, lucid etc are there for a reason as well. But I guess some people forget they have a purpose.

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Originally Posted by Nockvryca

No, I would say the warrior was doing a good job. Get initial threat. It's a party responsibility for aggro. All dps and healers have tools that they should be using to manipulate their aggro. That is how you play tank in this game, you get aggro, then you dps.

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I strongly disagree. A tank is more than capable to building enough aggro without the dps pulling off them being in tank stance for the first few rotations only.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

But I guess some people forget they have a purpose.

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Or just that they exist. I just ran into a sprout healer who had no idea what role actions even were. This game assumes a great many things about what its playerbase knows, and fails rather miserably in explaining them to begin with.
Tank stance, on the other hand, is inescapable. Assuming, of course, comparable ilvls across the roles. There's little an undergeared tank can do against an overgeared dps save to provoke off of them. Which is also sadly a role action.

Regardless of how you feel, enmity is a job for two. We have enmity dumps and suppressors for a reason. Since the 3.0 we've been in the dps tank meta, and that was BEFORE they made vit increase tank damage, so you had dudes with like a base 16k hp with strength accessories tanking alex. There is nothing wrong with the way tank stances work. The only problem are people who do not know how their class works and how a specific encounter works when it comes to outgoing damage. Even for me who came from WoW where pre-WoD, I think every tank was in their tank stance (Though damage output differs) I learned to get used to tanking without grit up and learning when and where big damage was coming so i can use my CDs effectively. The only time I don't take it off is trash, but that's just me personally.

Let me be clear: destroying the way dps stances work in any fashion will certainly kill our already small pool of tanks who even bother to queue for anything with pugs. Then you'll be left with Johnny "Pulls one pack at a time" Smith who doesn't know jack about his job or fairweather tanks who will jump ship at any sign of a bad run.

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Originally Posted by Narangerel

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The OP was regarding doma castle. the meta is irrelevant,,,,

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

The OP was regarding doma castle. the meta is irrelevant,,,,

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In this case, no it's not because her complaint is a result of the meta.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Great reply. I mean those skills aka diversion, lucid etc are there for a reason as well. But I guess some people forget they have a purpose.

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I'm afraid it wasn't a great reply because the poster hadn't read what I said. Their point is based on the war getting initial threat, which they didn't, which is why they suck.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Or just that they exist. I just ran into a sprout healer who had no idea what role actions even were. This game assumes a great many things about what its playerbase knows, and fails rather miserably in explaining them to begin with.
Tank stance, on the other hand, is inescapable. Assuming, of course, comparable ilvls across the roles. There's little an undergeared tank can do against an overgeared dps save to provoke off of them. Which is also sadly a role action.

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That too, there is some serious lack of reading tooltips in this game too.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

That too, there is some serious lack of reading tooltips in this game too.

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Originally Posted by addz3

and when I commented on that fact he says dps should use diversion!? Wtf. When both dps and healer are the top 3 enmity list maybe use the godamn tank stance.

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Originally Posted by addz3

which is why they suck.

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I dont quite follow here, please explain.

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Originally Posted by addz3

On another topic the intent for stances could be better defined. However when they have penalties of swapping between stances such as high mp usage for DRK or just simply a long cool down. Why would these exist if it was intended for tanks to swap continuously. It is my belief like others have suggested that it was designed so you have a stance in content and a stance for soloing. It isn't that way but that's a design aspect which could get changed down the line maybe. The min max dps for tanks has always been an "issue" and will probably remain

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The intent for stances is somewhat for full party play. Usually there is the tank who is holding the boss, and the other tank(s) aren't tanking a large portion of the time so they can do DPS on the side without having to worry about generating large amounts of enmity. (They aren't getting hit frequently so there is usually no reason to be in tank stance)

In 24 mans dropping stances if in an OT position allows you to use abilities without generating the same amount of enmity as the MT. You ever been in a 24 man where all 3 tanks are spamming hate combo in tank stance? The boss just spins and cleaves people.

Some of the problems with the stances is

1) Stuff doesn't hit hard enough in the first place when adequately geared and decent use of defensive cooldowns.
2) The damage penalty on the stances is why people drop them. You can nerf the dps stance all day but as long as the damage penalty is on the tank stance and #1 isn't changed people are most likely still going to drop it unless they nerf it so badly that it might as well not exist.
3) The enmity bonus on the tank stance can be bypassed by optimal usage of enmity reduction skills like Diversion, Lucid, Refresh/Tactician and manipulation abilities such as Provoke, Shirk, and Shadewalker.

So ironically, them adding Shirk and enmity drop abilities to most classes just gave people even more reason to not use tank stance. They even added more enmity reduction to some jobs recently so the dev team definitely knows about this style of tank play.

Tanks generally open in their tank stance and drop it once they get aggro. They still have to maintain aggro of course, but its done through DPS. The DPS/healers should be using aggro dumps/mitigators to make sure they arent 1 on threat.

All that being said, a few things should be considered: If the tank is undergeared while the DPS are overgeared, you may run into a situation where a tank cant effectively keep threat in DPS stance. If thats the case, then yeah, the Tank should switch to tank stance. Furthermore, if youre pugging it and the DPS arent using their aggro dumps (which they should be), then if youre tank, best thing you can do is just use tank stance. Yeah, itll slow down the run cause the DPS arent doing their part, but if theyre always tearing aggro cause of that and it slows down the run, thats on the DPS then.

Its a two-way street. Both tank and healers/dps have to manage threat and be considerate to the other.

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Originally Posted by addz3

Not at one point have I said enmity isn't a group thing or that dps and healer weren't using their enmity abilities. They were as was I.

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Your statement came off as that, but as I did say in the quote you took, if you were using diversion and still getting threat that quickly, then yes it's his fault.

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Originally Posted by addz3

So you play tank to max dps? Excellent. Imo it sounds like you prefer dps and short queues, that's why you tank. And again imo that attitude is what's wrong with tanks who care more about dps than their primarru role. I have no problem with tanks who can do both, just those that sacrifice enmity control to max dps. It's not helpful for the actual dps to lose dps so the tank can knock out a bit. It's counter productive....

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I play tank on an alt, an alt played so little for content anyways that he still doesn't have a 360 weapon, and only one piece of mendacity gear. I already dislike playing tank most of the time, the ONLY thing it offering to me is the ability to maximize. I really, really don't care about queue time, because I can do money making crafting and gathering while waiting on it.

Also, as a bit of perspective, I've had plenty of runs on all 3 tanks where I am only in tank stance for the pull, do 1 enmity combo, and drop it for the rest of the fight, not losing threat. Hell, if things die so slowly, I test and don't do an enmity combo or tank stance at all. Funny enough, half the time I still somehow hold threat, even undergeared...

Horror story time.

I was playing DPS, and as i was supposed to i used Diversion at the start of the fight.
Then Diversion ends, 90 seconds cooldown to go...and in that time i end up ripping aggro of the tank and dying.

The tank is all "Use diversion noob!"
Trying to explain that it's on cooldown gets a "I don't care!"
...How? It's on cooldown, how am i supposed to use it?

He just yells abuse at me for ripping aggro of him, while he is in DPS stance and refusing to use enmity combos or his AOE enmity generator, because they have lower potency so he will lose DPS if he does that.

I. CANNOT. USE. A. SKILL. THAT. IS. ON. COOLDOWN! How hard is that to understand?

Well, since the only way to avoid ripping aggro of him and dying is to not attack the enemy at all, i'll just do that then.
Then he yells at me for not attacking instead.
And the moment i go back to attacking i rip aggro and die, and he yells at me for that.
Well, what the hell am i supposed to do exactly?

The other DPS was having the same problem and also getting killed and yelled at.

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Originally Posted by Nockvryca

No, I would say the warrior was doing a good job. Get initial threat. It's a party responsibility for aggro. All dps and healers have tools that they should be using to manipulate their aggro. That is how you play tank in this game, you get aggro, then you dps.

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It's everyones responsibility to manage their hate. Including the warrior. The tanks job does not suddenly stop after initial threat. If they are getting hate ripped then they need to adjust as well. This is, obviously, if the dps are using diversion and healers using lucid and still pulling hate.

I run into this crap all the time with tanks. Bards get 2 hate reducing abilities. Refresh and Tactician and they are BOTH on a 3min CD. I will often have to use BOTH and then still rip hate because tanks think they dont have to contribute to enemity after they pull. Which is WRONG

The problem? Tanks think that because SKILLED tanks can do it then so can they. Which is not true...like at all.

When I tank in dungeons i stay in shield for adds (hello big pulls) and maybe 2 RH combos on the boss. Then switch to Sword, if I start losing hate guess what I do? I SWITCH , do a combo and switch back. It really is that simple. My job isnt to place +1 or 2 or 3 on the parse. My job is to make sure you dont take hate, and eat the busters. Its pretty simple

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Originally Posted by Narangerel

In this case, no it's not because her complaint is a result of the meta.

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there is no "meta" for any dungeon in this game. Don't kid yourself. Go in, do the job you went in as, and leave. THAT is the meta...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Narangerel

In this case, no it's not because her complaint is a result of the meta.

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I would say it results from non-raiders taking advice from raiders on how to play the game. I would argue a lot of the complaints we see are a result of that.

Guys, just had a tank who couldn't do combo's properly in my expert, so I pulled threat in the instance.

Better make sure that can't happen again. We need to remove combo's from the game.