Why Eureka is a worse form of the Diadem IMO

tl;dr: Eureka is still alive. Diadem died hard within a few weeks outside of small groups going in to gather via FC airships
that alone already makes Eureka vastly better than Diadem in my eyes

also I'd say that Eureka definitely fixed some of the mayor faults Diadem had, like the lack of story or allowing to group up inside. In Diadem I usually ended up 'stranded' alone and unable to do anything, as the rest of the PUG would either leave to re-queue or *kupo*off to gather once the mission was finished

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The first 2 steps of Anima were :
- Grind some FATES to drop crystals
- Do some dungeons with several of them available unsynced

Any idiot with a pulse could do that. Let's wait for the next steps before judging the "difficulty" of the weapon.

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Yea, any can. But it takes actually knowing your Class and playing it in top tier condition to do it at a Good, bearable pace for the later parts.

So I hope, I damn well HOPE, Eureka Stage 2 is gonna be painful. Then Final stage for this expansion will be Brutal to where only maybe 15 or so players per server will have the final stage Relic/Relics at max.

Cuz so far, this is making a Mockery of FFXI, since Eureka is taking elements from XI that is familiar, such as Dynamis.

You might want to stop hoping then, since titan HM they've decided for relics to be only time gated and not having to rely on a player skill at all

You misunderstand. Read what I said before again.

finishing the old relic never really gave me any sense of accomplishment it more like "thank god this damn thing is finally done"

1.0 relic did. But then again, everyone had to deal with Japanese servers, animation lock on every single move you do, 300-400MS latency, and Ifrit Extreme........:)

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Originally Posted by Tiaque

You misunderstand. Read what I said before again.

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from what you wrote you hope that eureka stage 2 will be painful and the final stage should be brutal to the point only 15 players or so per server will have the final relic .

This ain't happening, they already made it clear that it's designed to not require anything more than time since 2.2

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Originally Posted by Remedi

from what you wrote you hope that eureka stage 2 will be painful and the final stage should be brutal to the point only 15 players or so per server will have the final relic .

This ain't happening, they already made it clear that it's designed to not require anything more than time since 2.2

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Designs change. They can make it take not only a tremendous amount of time, but go further beyond by making it take TOO MUCH time, if the player isnt smart about their time management, or not skilled enough in their chosen class to complete the objectives quicker/easier.

But then again, they can throw it out the window, and go back to the terrors they did in 1.0.....:)

The thing is my dear, alot of new gen mmo players seem to take a long time to learn this very very valuable lesson.

Never ever ever take anything a developer says to be set in stone.

Seen far too many mmo developers say they will do one thing, and then turn it completely around, or adhere to it for awhile then bait and switch. Korean developers are highly notorious for that for example.

Will see what happens. Ive seen far too much to be surprised anymore.

:)

Yes they could, but the point is they won't. When they made relic requiring too much time to some, they had to apologize on the live letter, ppl can't stomach long grinds anymore

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Yes they could, but the point is they won't. When they made relic requiring too much time to some, they had to apologize on the live letter, ppl can't stomach long grinds anymore

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Devs apologize all the time, and then sooner or later, make changes to coincide with a bigger picture known only to them. I would never, ever get comfortable with any consistently developing content.

Theirs always other ways to get powerful gear that can require less time, or less skill even. If they decide to do something drastically different to relics at some point, then those who cant stomach it due to difficulty or too much time will just have to suck it up and either find the time, get better, or find a alternate route to better gear.

Just how it is.

They change when ppl complain enough, so far the mayor complaints that have occurred with FF14 is how every time that something requires more than 2 minutes of effort and more that 3 button to push is so much grindy and boring and since these voices are the loudest by far and large I can safely assume that SE won't change their stance on relics for the time beign ESPECIALLY for Eureka which has already panned out it's evolution

and frankly that apology was pathetic since it wasn't even needed, But I guess ppl wanted a 210 weapon witghout effort, while raiders had to suffer A4s
It wasn't even a long grind to begin with and not even that costly

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Originally Posted by Remedi

They change when ppl complain enough, so far the mayor complaints that have occurred with FF14 is how every time that something requires more than 2 minutes of effort and more that 3 button to push is so much grindy and boring and since these voices are the loudest by far and large I can safely assume that SE won't change their stance on relics for the time beign ESPECIALLY for Eureka which has already panned out it's evolution

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you know this claim has been made in response to anything and everything
"hey could you make this system actually work or maybe just not suck? " rarrrr it must be sucky badly made mess to make it hard!!!" never mind people aren't even asking for it to be easy or that something can be both hard and fun or that a properly made grind is actually fun etc

Sorry but fun is personal and honestly I have yet to find something that was fun grinding for several hours, so forgive me if I consider fun grinding just a buzzword

To give an example: I've enjoyed many combat RPGs in the past even finding addictive, but the moment I had to simply grind some materials or what not ,even on extremely fun combat, it made the game boring for me even if I had fun before.

I'm not going to sit here and ask for Eureka to be removed, but I will say I miss the old system and wish they would have given us an option to progress relics through Eureka or dungeons/trials/whatever. Or trade in our completed Anima to jump to level 20. God, I hate the levelling.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

There's actually no difference between NM, FATES and Hunts. It's basically group to kill a big monster. I really can't understand this FATE hate...do people really expect not having to kill monsters in an FF game ?

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because fates are utterly boring, pointless, lifeless, brainless, zerg fests. so are hunts. it's all mindless.
hunts would be so much better if they had a claim system and actually required some form of tactics instead of just throw enough bodies at it till it's dead...
fates would be better if they actually had some depth or impact on the world... but you can kill that swarm of mobs or just ignore em it really doesn't matter either way.....

I haven't done eureka. I said ages ago I wouldn't even touch it if it was more fate grinding. and that's exactly what it is.....

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, people play poorly. They'd rather stay AFK and gain pitiful experience points and no crystal from high level NM instead of actually targeting monsters of the appropriate level and gain much higher Xp/Protean crystal per hour.

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because it's ultimately so damn boring and mindless. it might be slower to go afk but it's probably infinitely less tedious....

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Yes they could, but the point is they won't. When they made relic requiring too much time to some, they had to apologize on the live letter, ppl can't stomach long grinds anymore

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this depends on a lot of things. what you have to do? how long for and what you get at the end of it? the main reason people can't stomach long grinds in modern mmos is simply because the rewards don't last long enough to justify the length of the grind....

The problem I see with this, is that it's content in an MMO that actively discourages new players and grouping together.

If I try to work on my own, it's mind-numbingly boring. If I group up, it's inneficient, because unless everybody is the same level, there's an exp penalty.

Across 20 levels, there's a lot of variance.

New players have to slog around, so it takes them longer to get to the low level NM they need, perhaps it'll even die before they get there. And because the NM syncs down high level players (and the NM is considered much lower level than the nearby normal enemies), you've got people discouraged from dealing with adds, since there's no guarantee people will help you kill them, but there's a very high chance you'll get killed due to the boss' poorly telegraphed attacks (good luck seeing that under all the explosions).

Frankly, it's just not fun. I don't expect to be just GIVEN good stuff, but I'd like to have visible progress.

I reacted poorly to Eureka not because I hated everything about it but because it came so close to being something I enjoyed and wasted it's potential. There are things in there I appreciate (the varying forms of how you can catch aggro are good!) but the fact it turned into just another fate chain really just let it down.

I will admit once you can mount things ease up a little bit and the catch up challenge log is pretty nice for those who have drug their feet about it but it's hardly the kind of content that grabs you.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

this depends on a lot of things. what you have to do? how long for and what you get at the end of it? the main reason people can't stomach long grinds in modern mmos is simply because the rewards don't last long enough to justify the length of the grind....

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A good injterpretation, but I don't agree on it, the fact that ppl had a stomach for grinds before had to also be that usually before you had one game that had to last you for a good while, now you have a much broader selection of games to the point that you can have the feeling of having too many games to play as such ppl are more mindful pf grinds.
Grinds have never been fun they were accepted because there was no alternative, that's why I don't like any arguments on fun in any kind of content, it a very subjective argument and can easily be countered upon while other problems in content should be brought to light more because they are far more problematic and objective.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

Your not wrong for wanting or hoping for something to change. I just dont understand what could have led you to expect it to change. Until SE changes their position on appealing to the lowest common denominator and then drastically overhaul the the core concept of their armory system (homogenized jobs), and decide to really shake up their incentives (Gear with interesting stats/horizontal progression), then the shake up you are looking for cannot happen. The devs have painted themselves into a corner and the only way out would be the introduction of an expansion that brings the necessary groundwork for change.

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While I'd certainly like to see these things, that doesn't mean it such changes are the minimum threshold by which to see positive change. Consider the HW relics, for instance, and light farming. At least that allowed more avenues of play than Eureka, Eureka, or... Eureka. They could have just as easily gone further, allowing you to loot Key Items from various content types by which to enhance your Relics, ultimately to the same result but with pace approaching a level commensurate to the effort per minute required for harder vs. easier sources of those upgrades.

Personally, I'd love to see open-ended quests by which to pursue relic-craft knowledge or upgrade techniques, which could then be used in the construction of other relics for other jobs, make up at least half the process.



Though, inversely...

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I see this most when I think of new jobs. People want BLU, well, i'm terribly sorry but you will NOT get the BLU you want. The only time you will "capture a move from an enemy" will be in your class quests, you will do it once as a cutscene after the fight, then *poof* you have "Goblin Punch" which is now part of your base combo. There will not be any randomness to what moves you can get because all the combat needs to be predictable by the devs for ease of balancing. Same thing for BST, you will get a reskinned SMN. Because what kind of backlash do you think would happen when the new job queues and you "forgot" got capture "X" before the dungeon, now you are not functioning at capacity for the instance. Look at the Tank thread on the front page right now and thats something that tanks always have...

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There's actually absolutely no reason that would need be the case. Class balance is not held tightly over the leveling process; it's content to simply be tight enough that no one flies off in a rage. What would it matter if the BLU didn't seek out situational ability Y before going into Bartam's Mettle? The difference between a decent and slightly-above-decent BLU is already going to make a larger difference than that skill would. Balance only really becomes a thing at level cap, and so long as there is a fixed total arsenal of spells, the methods of acquisition are largely irrelevant.

The reason you're likely not to see BLU receive actions by alternate means is because there's little exciting alternate content in which to set those methods of acquisition. If a BLU were able to fight a mob well above their own level to receive an action "early", the issue would be less one of balance as, in the process of getting some friends together to go and get the skill from elite mob X, one is left wondering why the open world feels so damn barren.

The systems remain rigid and stale less because they have to as simply for fear of the can of worms opened if the game exposed how much of itself has been left undeveloped, how many opportunities are skipped. It might not take a meteor, even then, for XIV to exit its contentedly sheltered state, but it will at least take a crafty sequence of improvements, each seemingly beneficial in its own right, that each prototype and move towards some far more fleshed out state for the game -- filling in without exposing the voids.

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Originally Posted by Keridwyn

I will admit once you can mount things ease up a little bit and the catch up challenge log is pretty nice for those who have drug their feet about it but it's hardly the kind of content that grabs you.

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I may have said this earlier, however a big reason for that is they highlighted arguably the worst attribute of FFXIV: Combat. Due to its rigid nature, combat simply isn't engaging in FFXIV. What makes it fun is performing your rotation while interacting with mechanics. Unfortunately, trash mobs offer precisely zero interaction, thus it's just mindless spamming a rotation on the equivalent of a dummy that procs. NMs are better, though they suffer from the same zerg mentality hunts do. The devs need to find a way to make actual gameplay and grinding more engaging. Personally, I feel if trash spawned a mini-boss that was scaled to your party composition and could not be touched by other players would be a step towards doing that, provided it actually came with a reasonable challenge. NMs could then be a little more rare, worth more to kill but also much harder.

Often times, less is more. And I feel Eureka forgot that.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

While I'd certainly like to see these things, that doesn't mean it such changes are the minimum threshold by which to see positive change. Consider the HW relics, for instance, and light farming. At least that allowed more avenues of play than Eureka, Eureka, or... Eureka. They could have just as easily gone further, allowing you to loot Key Items from various content types by which to enhance your Relics, ultimately to the same result but with pace approaching a level commensurate to the effort per minute required for harder vs. easier sources of those upgrades.

Personally, I'd love to see open-ended quests by which to pursue relic-craft knowledge or upgrade techniques, which could then be used in the construction of other relics for other jobs, make up at least half the process.

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Was the light farming stage the first stage of the HW relic? Honestly asking, I couldnt be bothered to do the HW relic. I managed to get my main class Zeta, by that point i was sick of running from one end of erozea to another. Probably why I like Eureka, one stop shopping. Don't mind if they add in more ways to get to the same goal within Eureka, that's a good idea. Reason I asked about the light farming is because I keep seeing people comparing the later stages of the relic to this first stage of the Eureka weapons and I dont think that is an entirely honest comparison.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

There's actually absolutely no reason that would need be the case. Class balance is not held tightly over the leveling process; it's content to simply be tight enough that no one flies off in a rage. What would it matter if the BLU didn't seek out situational ability Y before going into Bartam's Mettle? The difference between a decent and slightly-above-decent BLU is already going to make a larger difference than that skill would. Balance only really becomes a thing at level cap, and so long as there is a fixed total arsenal of spells, the methods of acquisition are largely irrelevant.

The reason you're likely not to see BLU receive actions by alternate means is because there's little exciting alternate content in which to set those methods of acquisition. If a BLU were able to fight a mob well above their own level to receive an action "early", the issue would be less one of balance as, in the process of getting some friends together to go and get the skill from elite mob X, one is left wondering why the open world feels so damn barren.

The systems remain rigid and stale less because they have to as simply for fear of the can of worms opened if the game exposed how much of itself has been left undeveloped, how many opportunities are skipped. It might not take a meteor, even then, for XIV to exit its contentedly sheltered state, but it will at least take a crafty sequence of improvements, each seemingly beneficial in its own right, that each prototype and move towards some far more fleshed out state for the game -- filling in without exposing the voids.

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See, this is all wishful thinking. I agree that it wouldnt matter at all for your average hum drum dungeon that you could do with your eyes closed. But are you new to the forums? Honestly asking since there are threads upon threads complaining about Healer DPS, Tank DPS, and they arent even DPS. Even doing an expert dungeon, which is faceroll easy, I have had people go off on me for being "terrible". We flew through it super easy and no one died so I dont even know what his beef was. They will be excluded automatically from most end game content unless they are equipped with the cookie cutter best spec. This isnt anything new.

i don't want it to be that way but I doubt BLU will be what you are hoping for. I'm still a little salty about the RDM, I wanted the En- spells and the -Spikes spells and instead we got...
Ninja and Monk cant even have two separate weapons in each hand for the same reasons!
They cant even include the elemental wheel outside of a close system for fear of one class being preferred over the other.

I could go on but its just frustrating me recalling all the lost potential... I wish I could have cured a ghost to death in 2.0....

I never did Diadem, however Eureka is a pain in the butt. The leveling system is painfully slow, and if you only have a limited amount of play time in the first place ... it just makes it that much slower and even less appealing. I have gotten to level 8 in Eureka and don't have any reason to go back, nothing appealing enough to make me want to go back in. I hope Pago's will excite me enough to finish Eureka and get into it. We will see though.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

Was the light farming stage the first stage of the HW relic? Honestly asking, I couldnt be bothered to do the HW relic. I managed to get my main class Zeta, by that point i was sick of running from one end of erozea to another. Probably why I like Eureka, one stop shopping. Don't mind if they add in more ways to get to the same goal within Eureka, that's a good idea. Reason I asked about the light farming is because I keep seeing people comparing the later stages of the relic to this first stage of the Eureka weapons and I dont think that is an entirely honest comparison.

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Light farming took place over both the ARR relic (late-ish) and HW relic (early-ish), and in both cases lent a huge boost to other content types, especially through ARR's bonus light rotations. As I said, it was far from perfect, but ARR's especially opened up the range of content we saw, rather than requiring a single content form be played ad nauseum to progress.

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See, this is all wishful thinking. I agree that it wouldnt matter at all for your average hum drum dungeon that you could do with your eyes closed. But are you new to the forums? Honestly asking since there are threads upon threads complaining about Healer DPS, Tank DPS, and they arent even DPS. Even doing an expert dungeon, which is faceroll easy, I have had people go off on me for being "terrible". We flew through it super easy and no one died so I dont even know what his beef was. They will be excluded automatically from most end game content unless they are equipped with the cookie cutter best spec. This isnt anything new.

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Not remotely. I've been a forum regular since around 1.17, and have never been gone from the game for more than a couple months at a time, for less than a half year in total. But I've also been consistently able to prog as non-meta jobs without issue whenever I desired, and as such have found that community-enforced restrictions are rarely ever as tight as the forums allege.

Heck, sometimes the players are far more certain of a given restriction due to irrevocable systemic design than even the developers would excuse. How often do you still hear that SCH is held back by SMN or vice versa, due to their link through ACN? And yet, those jobs' toolkits are each retroactively changed even in their pre-level-30 traits and actions compared to their ACN state; any remaining connection is by convenience, for lack of enough motive to change them, rather than anything unavoidable due to the systems behind class/job design.

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i don't want it to be that way but I doubt BLU will be what you are hoping for. I'm still a little salty about the RDM, I wanted the En- spells and the -Spikes spells and instead we got...
Ninja and Monk cant even have two separate weapons in each hand for the same reasons!
They cant even include the elemental wheel outside of a close system for fear of one class being preferred over the other.

I could go on but its just frustrating me recalling all the lost potential... I wish I could have cured a ghost to death in 2.0....

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To be fair, I don't care how BLU itself is designed in terms of whether it's conventional or anti-conventional or whatnot. I just worry over the long-term price stagnation could have on the game, and see every element traditionally opposed to the game's current stagnated systems as an opportunity by which development could excuse rejuvenation or future-proofing without seeming to be changing things solely for the sake of change. I suspect, even, that in the lack of longer-term goals or of the ambition to pursue them, the game is more likely to focus its attractions on unnecessary and unintuitive changes, such as that of job gauges, wherein only 3 jobs (NIN, SAM, PLD -- though the last's is a poor excuse for a gauge mechanic) actually needed the more granular metric it provided, or weren't outright easier to track via the Status Bar. I worry that without development approaching some more interesting vision for both the underlying systems and breadth of cohesive content of the game (not merely LoV, GC, etc., unless they interconnect with "mainstay" content), we're likely to see more steps sideways and backwards in design, even whilst -- by too few other things to mitigate attention theretoward -- each of those failures come to annoy us more. I like the idea of BLU, in a proper expansion, among proper systemic revisions, for what it could mean for the game -- not for the job itself, and certainly not for the sake of being "true to" the job.

Heaven-on-High may well be a final straw for me. I don't know. The wasted potential of Palace of the Dead was incredibly disturbing to me, but I had to admit that it served at least as a useful time-sink and as a, if shallow, proof of concept, systemically. But if I don't see any real advancement, amounting instead to just a swap in tile set and mob selection... that may be enough to turn me away from any trust in long-term design.

Eureka, for reasons similar enough to the OP's and others' here, is still probably the most telling example of poor vision, though. All the systems behind it seem almost crafted TO generate dead space, to waste as much of the content as possible once the brief "journey" of the leveling process has been trudged through to completion. Diadem turned into a 1.21-esque glorified camp farm, due in part to too few features or diversions, but Eureka crafted almost every added feature as if to create new fundamental issues (community splitting, dead space, efficiency as loitering, etc.), all while maintaining or exacerbating previous ones (without mob and raid mechanics, this game's combat -- admittedly, like most MMO's -- can be awfully dull, given that it's primarily driven by rotations, and rotations are only made interesting by compromise and matchwork; the netcode simply cannot reliably support more than some 30 players in a single encounter; etc., etc.).

It sounds like we are both in the same boat, HoH and the next step in Eureka will be my deciding factors. I enjoyed the first iterations of both but the next ones MUST be a step up from what they originally had. If its just more of the same, I'm out only to return a month before and a month after each expansion. If HoH is still the small square rooms vaguely procedurally generated then It wont be worth it. If Pagos is just another fate train with a new skin, it would be a wasted opportunity by the devs yet again. The tidbits I've heard so far about both seem promising but we will have to wait and see it in action. Maybe its just a self defense mechanism but I tend to prefer being pessimistic of late. That way there are fewer surprises and when I am surprised, its a good thing.

It game it got used and it's gone with no reuseablitity

Just another bust that SE tried to come up with
and no one cared for. I guess they should stick to POTD.
People seem to like it enough and it's still viable today.