Make FFXIV a 'Sandbox' game. No way it can compete against upcoming 'Themeparks'.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

XI was based around FFIII, which means the idea for a FF MMO is taking aspects of Final Fantasy games -- So it's not my idea of what a FF MMO, it's literally Square's idea and if they didn't want to make XIV so different from XI you can guarantee it would have been exactly like XI only with more freedom to do better graphics, systems and content type because the PS2 held XI back and it has taken almost 10 years for it to feel the effects of being a PS2 title, so with XIV they could have done everything they couldn't do with XI, but chose to go a new direction that realistically didn't work out too well barring the rushed release.

For reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_F...XI#Development



So realistically, a FF MMO is and should be based around the series it's actually a part of, just like World of Warcraft was based around the Warcraft lore. You said it yourself, there's only 1 FF MMO, which means there's no reason to "change" now, when it already doesn't feel like a FF game to begin with -- While true it somewhat resembles Final Fantasy II, it still doesn't have that "feel" to it that XI does which is why polls have shown people really do want it to live up to it's Final Fantasy name -- Best bet is if you expect it to "change" they have to drop the name and rename it back to Project Rapture, it's why they're now pretty much trying to transform it into a FF game because it's what a lot of people want.

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Thanks for the history lesson, Jennestia. Relevant as always... (/sarcasm).

While I completely understand that FFXI was modelled in FFIII's image, the argument in this thread isn't about destroying the features which make this a Final Fantasy game. In other words, it's not about changing the aesthetics and the FF "feel", it's about transforming basic and fundamental game-design concepts.

Obviously you can't change something so fundamental without effecting certain gameplay elements, but a FF game can still exist within the scope of the changes, especially considering what makes an FF game is such an intangible definition.

Anyway, FFXI might have been modelled after FFIII but in point of fact it actually drew more from Everquest than it ever did from FFIII. After all, It had to make some accommodations for MMO design. For instance, you can't have random encounters, and you can't have the same progression style of a single player RPG in an MMO. So some changes had to be made to the typical FF concepts when designing FFXI, simply in order to foster an MMO community.

Now, the point of this thread is that there are two ways of fostering an MMO community. One of those ways is to create countless reams of content( one instanced boss fight after the other) with the primary goal of such a system being to digest all of the content and have all the best gear.

The other route is to implement just as much content, but also to give players the ability to shape their own content too. If you look up the Themepark vs. Sandbox dichotomy, you'll see what I mean. On one hand there is the static world where players are along for the ride (Themeparks), and on the other hand is a game world more focussed on player-interactions and how players help shape and change the world (Sandboxes).

Just because FFXI was a themepark doesn't mean FFXIV can't be an amazing sandbox. Having the latter doesn't preclude FFXIV from maintaining FF-esque features.

gifthorse is an expert at marketing games

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Originally Posted by Valor

I think Game Designers need to stop trying to follow fads. The internet is one big fat stinky troll that is sitting on the dining room table.

FF has a set, dedicated fanbase, who like their games a particular way.

Don't mess with Granny's recipe when you don't even know it.

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Yes sir you are right when talking online ff we only have 1 game that we ff fans compare it to and thats XI no other game was like that one, it was a beloved exp that i wont forget and i hope to make the same statement about XIV get mad if you want

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Originally Posted by Phrozen

gifthorse is an expert at marketing games

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I'm just saying, I doubt anyone will be coming back when faced with the myriad of other titles being released soon, all of which are competing for the same customers. So FFXIV has to differentiate itself more (even more than FFXI was differentiated) as opposed to trying to compete when in reality it probably won't be able to.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Yes because all of the beta footage of those games are just scams.

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Aside from the fact that quite a few of the games you named aren't even in beta. PR videos aren't exactly the best way to judge a game's quality (they are PR, they are made purposedly to make you think that the game is great).
People were shedding tears of joy even while seeing the early videos of FFXIV, and of the many other games in the past that hit a wall at launch.

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Presumptuous much? At what point, just tell me this, did I ask for the removal of the armory system or any of FFXIV's unique features? A sandbox game wouldn't discourage group play, the armory system, or any of the good things about FFXIV, but it would however give FFXIV more of a chance in the industry to capture a bigger player base. Possibly, anyway.

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Actually the userbase for sandbox game has been demonstrated to be quite small by previous experience. Darkfall was to be the king of sandbox games. The wet dream of sandbox games lovers. And it's most definitely the most "sanboxy" mmorpg out there. Guess what? It failed so hard that it makes FFXIV looks like a critical success.
So no, it wouldn't give the game a chance to capture a bigger userbase. It would put the game in a niche with a smaller usebarse. Much smaller.

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What's quite telling is your inability to express any hesitation about how right you always are. But really, you don't know that the addition of more content - at a very slow pace might I add - will be enough to ensure this game's success. You're just stating that because you feel like it or something.

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And you're not stating things because you feel like it? Like everyone else out here? :D
When most of the games you mentioned will be launched, FFXIV will have had plenty time to be filled up with content. The pace is nowhere slow. It's actually one of the fastest, if not the fastest, rate of evolution in the market's past and present.

The notion that in order to compete with other games, FFXIV should NOT compete with them is rather funny. It's a game with a lot of strong points, that need to be exploited, expanded and built upon. SE has the resources to do that, and doesn't need to run away into a small niche to be able to compete with other developers.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

I'm just saying, I doubt anyone will be coming back when faced with the myriad of other titles being released soon, all of which are competing for the same customers. So FFXIV has to differentiate itself more (even more than FFXI was differentiated) as opposed to trying to compete when in reality it probably won't be able to.

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Aside from the fact that "soon" is a serious overstatement, FFXIV has something over most of those titles. It's *already* unique in many ways. Besides Blade and Soul and TERA everything else is a wow clone. Blade and Soul and Tera don't even have a set release date yet, and they're both action based MMOs, attracting a quite different demographic of twitch-lovers.

A theme park can easily compete with other theme parks as long as it has rides and a better theme. FFXIV has a better theme, and can easily get more and better rides before those games even see the light.
If the developers were to pull out a silly defeatist attitude and run away from the challenge, that'd be just the perfect indication that it's not worth it.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

I'm just saying, I doubt anyone will be coming back when faced with the myriad of other titles being released soon, all of which are competing for the same customers. So FFXIV has to differentiate itself more (even more than FFXI was differentiated) as opposed to trying to compete when in reality it probably won't be able to.

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they may not immediately but when they discover that those games have no long term effect they'll come back if that's what they're looking for. XIV has more room to grow and a better team than the other downy games

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Aside from the fact that quite a few of the games you named aren't even in beta. PR videos aren't exactly the best way to judge a game's quality (they are PR, they are made purposedly to make you think that the game is great).
People were shedding tears of joy even while seeing the early videos of FFXIV, and of the many other games in the past that hit a wall at launch.

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Well I do see Guild Wars 2 and TERA being the main contenders, and those are very well along in development terms and have had, at the very least, Beta tests. And many people I know from FFXIV (R50s btw) left for korean TERA saying it is the most amazing game even though they can't even properly understand the quest dialogue. I feel like that's saying something for the state of that game.

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Actually the userbase for sandbox game has been demonstrated to be quite small by previous experience. Darkfall was to be the king of sandbox games. The wet dream of sandbox games lovers. And it's most definitely the most "sanboxy" mmorpg out there. Guess what? It failed so hard that it makes FFXIV looks like a critical success.
So no, it wouldn't give the game a chance to capture a bigger userbase. It would put the game in a niche with a smaller usebarse. Much smaller.

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Darkfall, as an example, had a million flaws. Being a sandbox wasn't a fault it had. Was it not so unbelievably broken, it might have met with very much success.

Anyway, including sandbox elements isn't mutually exlusive to what FFXIV is currently doing. You can have developer-oriented content like questing, instances, party-play systems all in place and coexisting alongside more player-oriented content. So it's not like attracting one demographic will discourage the other from staying.

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And you're not stating things because you feel like it? Like everyone else out here? :D
When most of the games you mentioned will be launched, FFXIV will have had plenty time to be filled up with content. The pace is nowhere slow. It's actually one of the fastest, if not the fastest, rate of evolution in the market's past and present.

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But at least my statements are within reason.

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The notion that in order to compete with other games, FFXIV should NOT compete with them is rather funny. It's a game with a lot of strong points, that need to be exploited, expanded and built upon. SE has the resources to do that, and doesn't need to run away into a small niche to be able to compete with other developers.

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An old, broken, game targeting the same audience with the same types of content as newer games but with a crappier UI and repetitive guildleve system, which game do you think potential customers will gravitate toward? The only funny thing around here is your optimism.

since im playing rift a bit i must say, i wouldnt worry too much about upcoming great mmos, since only time will tell if they really are. So far rift has not that much to offer, the playerbase is big, ppl are ok but even in a guild with 100 ppl online you barely see someone say hello or goodbye. I talk more in ffxi/ffxiv with 3 ppl online in the LS....
You have i dunno like 1000 or 2000 quests who are all the same more or less. Dungeon and world design is great but even though there are a shit load of ppl everyone acts on his own. I get bored fast.

My point is: All of those mmos are not much more then flat rpgs wtih some group content, you are playing solo most of the time and do some raids or instances every once in a while but thats it. The dynamic events dont feel dynamic after you seen them 100 times and there are no surprises at all. Party play, party lvling is what makes an mmo "mulitplayer" imo.
without ppl to talk to or meeting new ppl its pointless. And even an rpg with a bad story usually has more to offer then.

I think Tera wont be much different from aion or rift. Ok the fight system might be different but i doubt anything else will be special. So after you know the system ... well not sure but i think there will be the same quests like you already know from 1000 other games.

Guild wars 2 i think might do well but its no competition, since its no mmo. Its much more of a solo game wtih mulitplayer options and pvp then an mmo.

The focus on party play is the strength of ffxi and ffxiv. We have more then enough "solo" mmos. So i have high hopes in FFXIV. Both solo and especially party content can be improved by a lot still and i bet it will. And i really rather wait then having it tranformed to all these boring clones.

No matter what mmos i play who are pve oriented ppl get so bored after a short time since they dont meet people solong from 1-80, since theres no point in doin so. and at lvl 80 they are used not to talk at all and leave the game after a while.
They give up saying hello in guildchat since nobody replies anyways. I think thats the main reason for mmos to fail, even the mmos having a good start.

Another nice example for such a fail is Age of Conan (which design and jobsystem and such i really like a lot, also the fightsystem) but you are alone from 1-80 then at lvl 80 all the "highlvl" spam the raids (which have 1 week cooldown timer) on tuesday. Then the game is basicly dead from wednesday to the upcoming tuesday lol. There even are other things to do, but nobody does them since ppl dont know how to "play" they get gear and log off. And that is what happens to all mmos who dont set more focus on party play.

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Originally Posted by Siatdiat

Is this really worth complaining about? OK, they could have used a book to show the npc that will give you a quest. This wasn't your original complaint but if your goal is to find something to complain about, I obviously can't stop you. Let's see what you want to say next, since here you imply your main beef is the symbol that they use, not that they have a symbol at



OK, I thought I clarified already that these symbols show the starting npc for a quest, yet the game doesn't show new ! for any other npc in a quest or show. But you are once again painting this in a false light. I'm wondering if you neither actually played the game with these quests or read a reputable source at the minimum about what the quests were like. You are operating on so many false assumptions it isn't even funny. You say people will solo level with these quests for 40+ levels. First of all, if there was a way for those who choose to level solo, why should it bother you? However, in this case that point doesn't make the slightest sense, for 2 basic reasons. First, the quests don't give exp, at all. In fact, if the quest tells you to kill mobs for part of it, those mobs don't give normal mob exp. I would like to see someone use these sidequests to level. Additionally, you imply that all quests ever offered would be soloable, and that they can't add challenging quests that will require putting together a group. You say developers should be focused on forcing people to party, in other words, the goal of developers should be to focus on the gameplay you want solely. This is incredibly selfish. Bringing up guildleves at all in this discussion and comparing them to these sidequests also shows you are unaware of the popular opinion verified by player polls that guildleves are boring and grindy excuses for a normal quest. Ultimately there are many issues with this game, and I think asking for changes to a part that is new and are NOT hurting anything is incredibly silly. Especially when you are unsure whether you just hate the symbol they use, which is an aesthetic argument, or whether you hate the fact it is in even in the game, which is a wholly different complaint.




First of all, whether your whining is whining or not is moot. That is a completely objective idea, based on your outlook and opinions and mine being different. There is no doubt what you are doing here sounds like whining to me. If it makes you feel better I won't use the word anymore, especially since it is beside the point. You make another assumption here, that is someone pays for an MMO, they only want to do a specific activity always. Once again, this is incredibly selfish for you to assume you speak for all players of this game, and all potential future players of this game. The rest of this paragraph is a train wreck, get a bit more mastery of the english language. I can kind of guess a meaning to that last section but it is no help from you writing it. Only using the context of the rest of the post, and ignoring the third line mostly because it is a broken sentence with no meaning. Let's pretend that sentence makes sense though! If the developers are trying to keep single players happy as a priority, ... they shouldn't encourage single player game play in an mmo? Hmm, ok I can't even pretend that makes sense, but I can examine another assumption in it. The idea they are focusing on solo content is first off your opinion, but I can understand why you would look at it that way considering there is barely any content in the game. Guildleves are a implementation failure as usual of what was initially a great idea on SE part. As it is, they are soloable and easy, and the only carrot for linking up with others is xp bonus. The difficulty stars do not work well. A better way would have been to make the stars increase actual difficulty to the point larger partys were needed, and instead of small xp bonus, make it so that the rewards, from xp, to item, were better or higher quality. I would have loved to spam party guildleves to get the FF14 equivalent to some leaping boots, or similar items for other classes.

There are tons of ways to encourage party play other than forcing it. Grow up, SE is making this game for a majority, not you and the other few niche gamers.

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The problem that I have with the exclamation mark symbols is that they were requested to be put in there by people who saw them in other MMOs and felt that they were needed, not by developers. Why stop there? Lets keep adding stuff from other MMOs into this game until we end up turning FF14 into the other MMOs we already played.

There are a lot of players in the game currently that are just not partying. There are a lot of players soloing. A lot. Many of the suggested changes seem to be benefiting solo gaming. It's an MMO. Multi-player should be a priority.

I see the '!' mark symbols as a representation of taking a big step backwards.

This allows FFXIV to be a sandbox while fixing the uniqueness issue that FFXIV has please read it and support if you agree.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...pecializations

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Originally Posted by sharky

The problem that I have with the exclamation mark symbols is that they were requested to be put in there by people who saw them in other MMOs and felt that they were needed, not by developers. Why stop there? Lets keep adding stuff from other MMOs into this game until we end up turning FF14 into the other MMOs we already played.

There are a lot of players in the game currently that are just not partying. There are a lot of players soloing. A lot. Many of the suggested changes seem to be benefiting solo gaming. It's an MMO. Multi-player should be a priority.

I see the '!' mark symbols as a representation of taking a big step backwards.

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If the '!' mark causes issues for you, how come you don't complain about the mini map, or the arrows that flash on it for a guildleve?

I'm glad they listened to the players for that, perhaps they will put in more system type enhancements from other games (like improving the linkshell interface etc). After all, if it works well in another game, and players like it, why waste the $$$ developing another system to replace it? I'd rather SE focus their innovation on areas that actually *need* innovation. I have no problems seeing a little puffy cloud with a '!' to tell me that there is an NPC that has something for me to do. It saves me from talking to every NPC I come across just to find out, and it also saves me from learning some other method of interfacing with a game that doesn't translate to other games.

That kind of argument is akin to being mad at the developers of Gnome because it uses a mouse just like Windows.

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Originally Posted by Mishakai

If the '!' mark causes issues for you, how come you don't complain about the mini map, or the arrows that flash on it for a guildleve?

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The reason it is irritating is because it simply screams of trying to nab players from the WoW playerbase. Why is it a (!)? It would have fit it much better with the world if it were a dimly shining crystal or simply a note on our minimap.

On a side note, I would much rather see the minimap disappear. I've never liked built-in GPS systems in fantasy games. I'd much prefer it if we simply have a map that didn't point out our location. But I realize that I'm in the minority with this opinion.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Some people have no understanding of dramatic tension. Those Pker types are what makes games interesting and dangerous.

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In your opinion, perhaps. I'm not really a fan of PvP as I don't enjoy conflict, and world PvP is something I truly despise. I put up with it for six months in Aion before leaving for good. One thing I enjoyed about FFXI is that playing a single-faction MMO with an emphasis on PvE and story made you feel like you were coming together against a common threat. I'd like to see that continue with FFXIV.

And I don't see how single-faction world PvP can work where people can communicate and turn it into a smack-talk match. I'd personally not like to see the FF community degrade that way.

Yoshi-P has already said there will never be PKing in this game, so arguing in defense of world PvP seems futile.

Besides, trying to compete with other MMOs that are heavily focused on PvP also seems like a futile effort and a step in the wrong direction.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Besides, consentual PvP servers are always a possibility.

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If regionalized servers and gameplay style designations like RP aren't going to happen, I seriously doubt PvP servers are going to happen, either.

Fourth quarter 2011 being "soon" is not an overstatement when you factor in development time, its been months and we've got 3 notorious monsters, a handful of new quests and a less oppressive UI, and a new development team which is tackling a project that has been in development for years to show for it.

I'm not saying get the lead out, but there's a storm coming that you'll have to weather.

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

The reason it is irritating is because it simply screams of trying to nab players from the WoW playerbase. Why is it a (!)? It would have fit it much better with the world if it were a dimly shining crystal or simply a note on our minimap.

On a side note, I would much rather see the minimap disappear. I've never liked built-in GPS systems in fantasy games. I'd much prefer it if we simply have a map that didn't point out our location. But I realize that I'm in the minority with this opinion.

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You're not in a minority on the minimap. I hate it too. I like the fear of getting lost in a large world. The farther out you randomly wander, the harder it usually is to get back. Add minimap and teleport, and for me you have removed immersion.

I understand the '!'. People will recognize it. I even laughed when they tossed a little FF flash onto it and italicized in in a little puffy cloud.

The dichotomy in this game just kills me. We have things like the armory and motion capture graphics which IMO represent some of the best innovation and advancement in MMOs to date. Then we have the Linkshell interface. Personally, I'd rather see them copy another games guild interface for their Linkshell UI rather than take a step backwards when compared to their previous MMO. It's like they picked a handful of things to innovate on, while completely ignoring industry advancements in other areas of the genre that have been made over the last 8 years.

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Originally Posted by Mishakai

It's like they picked a handful of things to innovate on, while completely ignoring industry advancements in other areas of the genre that have been made over the last 8 years.

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Well said.

I couldn't disagree with the OP more. I think the terminology of "theme park" gets thrown about a bit too much. Don't get me wrong, I don't want it to end up like WoW either. However, FFXIV does not need to be a sandbox, it needs to be a Final Fantasy! As someone else said, there is a huge FF fanbase (not just FFXI fans). And the more of a sandbox it becomes, the less FF it is. FFXI has a very different feel to it compared to other MMOs, even though some people say its modeled after EQ or Lineage. Its hard to put into words exactly, but one thing for sure is an epic storyline is absolutely needed. I can't see that happening in any sort of sigificant or meaningful way in a sandbox setting. This is just a horrible idea. If the devs did as you want, I'd have to insist on a name change or the removal of the Final Fantasy and it would then just be called XIV.

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Originally Posted by Nephera

Fourth quarter 2011 being "soon" is not an overstatement when you factor in development time, its been months and we've got 3 notorious monsters, a handful of new quests and a less oppressive UI, and a new development team which is tackling a project that has been in development for years to show for it.

I'm not saying get the lead out, but there's a storm coming that you'll have to weather.

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Pardon me for being chatty... (I'm Irish, it's Friday and yesterday was St. Patrick's day.. 'nuff said)... ANYWAY...

I don't think I could have said it better myself. Doom and gloom does not loom for XIV (say that 10 times fast), but they do need to be prepared to take a couple hits late in the year, especially if the big titles can do what big titles have failed to do in recent history, deliver.

I don't think anybody here would disagree that this genre is full of players chomping at the bit for the next big thing.

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Originally Posted by Shikyo

Yes sir you are right when talking online ff we only have 1 game that we ff fans compare it to and thats XI no other game was like that one, it was a beloved exp that i wont forget and i hope to make the same statement about XIV get mad if you want

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Why would I get mad?

Final Fantasy is all about the experience and the memories. Which is why I always look to SE to create an environment for me to create them in.

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Originally Posted by Mishakai

If the '!' mark causes issues for you, how come you don't complain about the mini map, or the arrows that flash on it for a guildleve?

I'm glad they listened to the players for that, perhaps they will put in more system type enhancements from other games (like improving the linkshell interface etc). After all, if it works well in another game, and players like it, why waste the $$$ developing another system to replace it? I'd rather SE focus their innovation on areas that actually *need* innovation. I have no problems seeing a little puffy cloud with a '!' to tell me that there is an NPC that has something for me to do. It saves me from talking to every NPC I come across just to find out, and it also saves me from learning some other method of interfacing with a game that doesn't translate to other games.

That kind of argument is akin to being mad at the developers of Gnome because it uses a mouse just like Windows.

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Then if the game is so 'broken' why don't you play other MMOs instead. This thread is about 'sandbox' ideas. Which is drop me off and let me play as I see fit. You are way off topic. If you want to run around from exclamation point to exclamation point then go and play WOW. Stop telling FF14 developers to make it into WOW. FF14 is more than just 'puffy clouds'. I for one like FF14 for what it is, not for what it isn't!

Oh. And I do hate the mini-map and arrows. I should have the ability to switch them off.

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

The reason it is irritating is because it simply screams of trying to nab players from the WoW playerbase. Why is it a (!)? It would have fit it much better with the world if it were a dimly shining crystal or simply a note on our minimap.

On a side note, I would much rather see the minimap disappear. I've never liked built-in GPS systems in fantasy games. I'd much prefer it if we simply have a map that didn't point out our location. But I realize that I'm in the minority with this opinion.

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Actually Dreamer, you are more along the same path as I am in terms of having a true 'sandbox' game. I don't remember FF11 telling you precisely where you needed to go all the time. You never had to rely on a mini map. If you are always looking at a mini map, then you are not paying attention to the environment you're traveling on, you're just looking at the map in the corner.
That's what I liked about FF11. It would say go to this region, and then off you went exploring and it was neat. Here in FF14, we already have a mini map and compass telling you where to go which is already intrusive. You should have the ability to turn it off. Otherwise you're just always looking for red dots all the time. FF11 was way more open and 'sandboxy'. FF14 already has friendly single player stuff in it, like said mini map compass and follow the red dots. Why do these players insist on ruining it by adding all of these standardized tropes in every other WOW clone?

The mini-map should be allowed to have a toggle. Perhaps for the newcomers or for different areas you've never been to, the mini-map is a good idea, but by the time you've done a few leves, you have basically memorised where all those monsters/goals will be. Do a few more behests, you have a 1 in 3 chance of getting the direction of the next batch of monsters right.

Otherwise, I have no qualms about the side-quest exclamation mark. It's a convenience without it being too "BAM I HAVE A QUEST FOR YOU TO DO, DO IT OR I'LL BASH YOU" nor is it easy to miss, compared to checking every single NPC to find the quest you want to do.

Well RIFT failed, so scratch that one off your list of FF14 killers. People are dropping that game out of bordem, like a bad habit. Most of those MMOs will fail, TERA, star wars... lol The last Star Wars was supposed to kill WoW, and look WoW is still around and Star Wars had to create a new game and try again. It'll be hard for a Western style MMO to Kill Final Fantasy.. this whole thread is pointless... Really have no idea why I wasted my time...

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Originally Posted by Punxsutawney

Well RIFT failed, so scratch that one off your list of FF14 killers. People are dropping that game out of bordem, like a bad habit. Most of those MMOs will fail, TERA, star wars... lol The last Star Wars was supposed to kill WoW, and look WoW is still around and Star Wars had to create a new game and try again. It'll be hard for a Western style MMO to Kill Final Fantasy.. this whole thread is pointless... Really have no idea why I wasted my time...

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Game Developers major problem is they keep trying to steal WoW 12+ million. They should however try to get the other millions that don't like WoW and want a more unique MMO. WoW has a very loyal player base and nobody can take them away. In my opinion FFXIV could be the first to rival WoW without touching their player base(if Yoshi-P finds that gray area). FFXI was a very good game but never grew because it reached out only to Hardcore players.

Well there's a reason Guild Wars 2 and Archeage register at over 8.3 on the hype-meter at MMORPG.com, a figure FFXIV never had so far as I recall. The interest in those games stems from their apparent innovation in the gaming industry in areas such as dynamic quests and dynamic content, i.e., a world that can change and be changed. SE would do well to recognise that there is more to the MMO genre than simply remaking WoW with a Final Fantasy skin or remaking FFXI, which is very similar to WoW comparatively speaking.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Well there's a reason Guild Wars 2 and Archeage register at over 8.3 on the hype-meter at MMORPG.com, a figure FFXIV never had so far as I recall. The interest in those games stems from their apparent innovation in the gaming industry in areas such as dynamic quests and dynamic content, i.e., a world that can change and be changed. SE would do well to recognise that there is more to the MMO genre than simply remaking WoW with a Final Fantasy skin or remaking FFXI, which is very similar to WoW comparatively speaking.

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the only succesful game in the world is FFXI.. That's why FFXIV has to be JUST LIKE IT.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Well there's a reason Guild Wars 2 and Archeage register at over 8.3 on the hype-meter at MMORPG.com, a figure FFXIV never had so far as I recall. The interest in those games stems from their apparent innovation in the gaming industry in areas such as dynamic quests and dynamic content, i.e., a world that can change and be changed. SE would do well to recognise that there is more to the MMO genre than simply remaking WoW with a Final Fantasy skin or remaking FFXI, which is very similar to WoW comparatively speaking.

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I'm also amazed when I heard/read about GW2. I never played GW1 so I don't know how easy of a game it is but GW2 quest/content wise really sounds epic. Most other MMOs are just copying WoW basic/simple style instead of thinking outside the box a bit.
A lot of people are having a hard time finding that "perfect" MMO simply because they all feel so much alike. There isn't much out there that leaves you amazed for long. They may have some features thats cool here and there but everything else seems so familiar, simple, or just boring.

Hell I'm one of those people and I made up my mind im only giving 3 more MMOs a shot then im done and going back to shooting/sports games. FFXIV, GW2, or SWTOR are those 3. If FFXIV fails than I will move to GW2 or SWTOR(whichever is out first)...

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Originally Posted by Akumu

I'm also amazed when I heard/read about GW2. I never played GW1 so I don't know how easy of a game it is but GW2 quest/content wise really sounds epic. Most other MMOs are just copying WoW basic/simple style instead of thinking outside the box a bit.
A lot of people are having a hard time finding that "perfect" MMO simply because they all feel so much alike. There isn't much out there that leaves you amazed for long. They may have some features thats cool here and there but everything else seems so familiar, simple, or just boring.

Hell I'm one of those people and I made up my mind im only giving 3 more MMOs a shot then im done and going back to shooting/sports games. FFXIV, GW2, or SWTOR are those 3. If FFXIV fails than I will move to GW2 or SWTOR(whichever is out first)...

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Most games copy basic EQ principles did you know that? Probably didn't you play FFXi, which apparently, started MMORPGs.

A lot of people find a hard time finding a good MMORPG because they have played them before. Do you want to play FFXI again, I actually challenge your answer to that because if you had to do it over again RIGHT NOW from scratch you'd say "Fuck it".


Be real.


-Have fun

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Originally Posted by Akumu

I'm also amazed when I heard/read about GW2. I never played GW1 so I don't know how easy of a game it is but GW2 quest/content wise really sounds epic. Most other MMOs are just copying WoW basic/simple style instead of thinking outside the box a bit.
A lot of people are having a hard time finding that "perfect" MMO simply because they all feel so much alike. There isn't much out there that leaves you amazed for long. They may have some features thats cool here and there but everything else seems so familiar, simple, or just boring.

Hell I'm one of those people and I made up my mind im only giving 3 more MMOs a shot then im done and going back to shooting/sports games. FFXIV, GW2, or SWTOR are those 3. If FFXIV fails than I will move to GW2 or SWTOR(whichever is out first)...

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You could wait and try ArcheAge before you lose all hope. SWTOR might not be too great, by the looks.

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Originally Posted by Valor

FF has a set, dedicated fanbase, who like their games a particular way.

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Yes, and part of that "particular way" includes making them single player games. Most of the FF fanbase absolutely hated FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Rhianu

Yes, and part of that "particular way" includes making them single player games. Most of the FF fanbase absolutely hated FFXI.

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I don't think they hated it outright for existing as much as they hated the idea of paying a monthly fee for it.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

You could wait and try ArcheAge before you lose all hope. SWTOR might not be too great, by the looks.

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Or wait after the coming 2012 for WH40k DMO. I, for one, can't wait to shoot sissy space Elves with mini rocket-propelled grenade machine gun.

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Originally Posted by Mishakai

Pardon me for being chatty... (I'm Irish, it's Friday and yesterday was St. Patrick's day.. 'nuff said)... ANYWAY...

I don't think I could have said it better myself. Doom and gloom does not loom for XIV (say that 10 times fast), but they do need to be prepared to take a couple hits late in the year, especially if the big titles can do what big titles have failed to do in recent history, deliver.

I don't think anybody here would disagree that this genre is full of players chomping at the bit for the next big thing.

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Not sure that they will take hits at all, I am not yet convinced that they will have a game worth paying for by the forth quarter 2011, so technically there will be no hits to take.

Neither FFXIV or any of these other "themepark MMOs" can compete with THIS Theme Park.

http://www.neoseeker.com/Games/Products/PC/themepark/ :)

I haven't looked into all of the games the OP mentioned, but as far as Star Wars and Rift goes, I'd never play Star Wars really because I'm just not big into it, never have been, never really will be and I'm not sure but there are probably alot of other people that feel this way?

As far as Rift goes IMO its a mix of Wow and Guild Wars, there were alot of people saying this during the beta and on the forums and all the fanboys were like "screw off" "go away" and maybe I'm wrong and they're right but I sticked with it for my beta key and it just didn't seem to pull me in.

All that said and I'm sure this has been mentioned at some point before, I think FFXIV basically shot itself in the foot when it went F2P. I'm not sure how many people are playing it now, 1000 a server? 2000? And I know the general idea is for them to go P2P when they release it on PS3, but IMO they will likely lose alot of current players when they go P2P - "well fun while it lasted, not paying for it though".

Unless they go with some sort of micropayment plan, but I know alot of people are against that.

Haven't read the entire thread, so bear with me.

One of the reasons that I currently do enjoy Final Fantasy XIV is because it strikes me as a 'Sandbox' game. For example, I choose to go out and chop trees so I can sell the lumber, which then goes through crafting and eventually possibly made into weapons or tools - the long term/large scale of the server infrastructure entertains me far more than saving the world. Again.

The last MMO I truly enjoyed was also of this style (Star Wars Galaxies, which also received such warm reviews from critics), before they mangled it to try and 'beat' (or perhaps just become) World of Warcraft. I'm currently playing DCUniverse (A month) and World of Warcraft (Since EU launch), and was interested in Star Wars : The Old Republic, but having seen gameplay from it as we get closer to launch, all my excitement and interest has dried up. Same as when I play World of Warcraft and DCUniverse.

Don't get me wrong, they are great fun...but the burn out from constant being pushed - Do this, now this, now this - leads me to get bored very quickly. On the other hand, I can happily wander around Treespeak in the Black Shroud and cut trees for hours on end (or at least until I start to fail) then go and either pick something else up, or wander about. I don't feel pressurised, and it lets me do what *I* want too with my character.

Another game I'm playing at the moment is Pokemon White on the DS, and I enjoy that so much more. Not only can I follow a general main storyline, but if I decide to level up some lower level Pokemon, or maybe I want to catch something else, or just take part in those show things, I can do so. I'm not limited to only following the main path without a choice.

So basically, I'm all for 'Sandbox', as long as there is a decent amount of things to choose from to do, be it scurry around in dark, dingy caves with your friends, or clearing the forest for lumber so I can make lots more Gil. Or things like Chocobo racing, skinny dipping in a river and so on! It should be pretty obvious to everyone who plays that the layout of the world is 'sandbox' oriented also. The comments for example that "the newbie areas are dangerous" when in reality, they have wandered into a high level area *within* that particular region (For example, Western Black Shroud has areas of basically everyconceivable Rank if you wander about).

One thing Sandbox games can be particularly good for is world events/storylines - since you don't 'worry' about if new players get to experience it or not, you can actually have things happen, that longer term players will remember and be able to tell to those who perhaps join when the Black Shroud burns and is under Garlean Control. Much more freedom, and much less limits - but it does appeal to a more niche crowd I believe.

*Edit* I see a lot of complaints (not in this thread, just in general) about no obvious way to go after the opening, but I loved being dropped in the game, and left immediately to my own devices. That isn't to say I don't think Quests and such should be around for folks to do, nor do I believe there shouldn't be a tutorial for those who wish it (minor quest chain, like when I first joined FFXI in my brief stay - it wasn't invasive, and it gave me the choice), but I don't want to *have* to do them to progress - seems currently I'll get my wish, with the Side and Main quests giving no Skill. I'll always remember being dropped into Star Wars Galaxies with nothing but a crappy blaster and a melon. Good times.