please consider ending the mentor system

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03-30-2018, 03:51 AM
Ilyrian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

lol.. guess you don't know how moogle extreme works at 50, its not a joke.

if you do not do it, you wipe, no ifs ands and butts

Swap. Tank swap :)
03-30-2018, 03:58 AM
PerrinTaveren

Quote:

Originally Posted by Okamimaru

and did it ever occur to you the do a 5 second Google search to find anything out on your own? It's 2018 where people talk to smart devices more than they do each other and yet noobs can't look up basic questions about a mmo that's now in its 2nd expansion? Hell 90% of sprouts will not ask questions in dungeons and maybe 50% will take advice given... so maybe noobs can do a little leg work while waiting for that dungeon or trial to fill...

if you continue to quote this, you will see i wrote ''i didn't know there were even guides for ex fights etc.''. I joined at the end of ARR, there was no mentor system, no novice network whatsoever.The point i thought i was doing something wrong was when they kicked me out of the dungeon and called me a noob. I am not originally an english player so i didn't even know what noob was. I looked at everything about the game at that point, i improved myself A LOT. I had never played any mmo before so i didn't even know i need to look up for things. I bought the game, i installed it and started playing. Don't trash talk about people who were as noob as i was before. Nobody has to look for google but within the game right now, mentors NEED to help. And they should.
03-30-2018, 04:10 AM
Paladinleeds

Quote:

Originally Posted by Okamimaru

and did it ever occur to you the do a 5 second Google search to find anything out on your own? It's 2018 where people talk to smart devices more than they do each other and yet noobs can't look up basic questions about a mmo that's now in its 2nd expansion? Hell 90% of sprouts will not ask questions in dungeons and maybe 50% will take advice given... so maybe noobs can do a little leg work while waiting for that dungeon or trial to fill...

For a lot of new players coming to the game, they don't realise that they need to Google (or Bing, other search engines also exist) things. They're used to being able to learn at their own pace in single player games and not needing all this frontloaded knowledge before starting party duty in MMORPG, especially those who are familiar with SPRPG but not MMORPG. It's a culture shock in a way. So we should be more encouraging and supportive. Now I'd already played several MMOs before coming to FFXIV so I was used to it all.

However for someone whom FFXIV is their first MMORPG? Big culture shock inbound. Let's help them, not saying "Just google it." - for those who react with hostility even when we are very nice about it (for example "Have you tried this? It improves your play in that way."), then fair enough, but again it's probably the culture shock involved there. They're not used to the idea that they need to perform as part of a team. As for how we overcome that as mentors (and when I become a mentor again), I don't know. I'm willing to take on board people's suggestions on how to help people deal with the culture shock (assuming it is the culture shock at play here).
03-30-2018, 04:11 AM
Rowde

LoL...

I'm dead serious.

In that long winded example you gave, where everyone just left... you arguably had enough evidence there to report that player for trolling. The problem is that it's easier to just leave rather than to take the time to report the player and potentially get them at least an interview with a GM to address their behavior.

The OP's concern was about Mentor's immediately abandoning and taking the 30 minute penalty when presented with semi-hard content, i.e. most level 50 EX Trials.
These ppl have already grown accustomed to a 30 minute timeout for immediately abandoning, so the punishment has to actually be escalated. I think 3 hour penalty is fair to keep anyone that isn't seriously interested with actually, you know, mentoring other players.

I also think 45 min before abandoning is fair amount of time for honest attempts. The fact of the matter is, you might not clear content in Mentor Roulette. You might be placed with a new player who is trying to learn the fight... I've been in learning parties for current content where progress didn't occur until 50 min in... And sure, that can happen in dungeons too, it's just uncommon. Sure no dungeon should take more than 20 min for experienced players, but that's not what you are signing up for with Mentor Roulette as a Mentor. That attitude that "no content should take more than x amount of time" is completely contradictory to the attitude a mentor SHOULD have.

Also bear in mind, that proposed 45 minutes before abandon just applies to the MENTOR, if another player decides to abandon first after 10 minutes, thus making the party "no longer complete", then the Mentor would be able to leave at that point without penalty like any other player.
03-30-2018, 04:17 AM
Paladinleeds

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rowde

Also bear in mind, that proposed 45 minutes before abandon just applies to the MENTOR, if another player decides to abandon first after 10 minutes, thus making the party "no longer complete", then the Mentor would be able to leave at that point without penalty like any other player.

Nothing to stop the mentor peer pressuring someone else that isn't queued via mentor roulette to make the abandon, or putting up a vote kick (which could go through) to try and free up a slot so they can leave without penalty. You have to remember, these nasty players that don't care aren't afraid to pull out all the stops. See the fake disconnects to get kicked to avoid a penalty already. I'm not against your idea, but we have to make sure as holes are spotted, we get them plugged.
03-30-2018, 04:19 AM
PerrinTaveren

@Paladinleeds, yeah the most different thing was playing with other people and i was nervous. after they called me noob and kicked me, i was really really upset. I didn't even know what i did. And after that experience i hated tanking. I still do. It makes me so nervous, i feel like players still think i am a noob or something. I know i am at least above mediocore tank but still, when you play the game for the first time and people call you bad and kick you, for me, i lost my confidence for tanking. That's why mentor system should NOT be removed. It may be improved but i think i am helping people who are at the same kinda place as i was, and it makes me happy.
03-30-2018, 04:31 AM
Tridus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rowde

The OP's concern was about Mentor's immediately abandoning and taking the 30 minute penalty when presented with semi-hard content, i.e. most level 50 EX Trials.
These ppl have already grown accustomed to a 30 minute timeout for immediately abandoning, so the punishment has to actually be escalated. I think 3 hour penalty is fair to keep anyone that isn't seriously interested with actually, you know, mentoring other players.

If you need to bludgeon people like this, maybe it'd make more sense to not put it into the roulette in the first place? This content is done in PF. SE just needs to recognize the reality of the situation and stop trying to inflict it on mentors and newbies who don't know better.
03-30-2018, 04:38 AM
Okamimaru

Quote:

Originally Posted by PerrinTaveren

'i didn't know there were even guides for ex fights etc.''. I joined at the end of ARR, there was no mentor system, no novice network whatsoever.

First mmo or not...hell it could be your first video game... if you don't know something you look it up... before the internet, games came with booklets that told you information on how to play the game... now days it's online... it's stupid to expect someone to sit down and explain what a tank is, what AoE means, why you need to wear real armor and not lvl 1 glam gears ect in a dungeon/trial/raid... that's all stuff you should have a basic grasp on... I'm all for helping but I refuse to hand hold and babysit you because you didn't think to educate yourself even a hair before making yourself a burden on the people who got stuck in an instance with you... if we are in any instance all you're gonna get is a rundown of the mechanics... if you don't know the very basics that's totally on you...
03-30-2018, 04:47 AM
PerrinTaveren

Quote:

Originally Posted by Okamimaru

First mmo or not...hell it could be your first video game... if you don't know something you look it up... before the internet, games came with booklets that told you information on how to play the game... now days it's online... it's stupid to expect someone to sit down and explain what a tank is, what AoE means, why you need to wear real armor and not lvl 1 glam gears ect in a dungeon/trial/raid... that's all stuff you should have a basic grasp on... I'm all for helping but I refuse to hand hold and babysit you because you didn't think to educate yourself even a hair before making yourself a burden on the people who got stuck in an instance with you... if we are in any instance all you're gonna get is a rundown of the mechanics... if you don't know the very basics that's totally on you...

i won't even argue with you, i didn't say explain me things.I said i ''googled'' it. You can't know you are unaware of your ignorance until you realize it. I told you i wasn't aware i was doing a wrong thing so that's why i didn't look, but when i got aware, i did. If you can't grasp that, i can't even bother explaining myself.
03-30-2018, 04:55 AM
Vstarstruck

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rowde

I also think 45 min before abandoning is fair amount of time for honest attempts. .

No it is not, all you are doing is increasing trolling mentors while solving nothing.
45 mins is too long to be sitting there and have people not even try to listen to you, furthermore why is only the mentor getting this 3 hr penalty? the point I was making was others need it as well who are trying to troll and sabotage.

All you are doing is trying to punish mentors for no reason. No I fully oppose that. I am sorry you are trying to punish the whole group of mentors because of a select few. That is not fair to them.
03-30-2018, 04:59 AM
BillyKaplan

Forget punishing them, if a mentor stuck it out for 45 minutes in an ex trial they should have that tick for their achiev. If they're trolling or sabotaging just to make it drag out longer they should be kicked and it's on the party if they're not.
03-30-2018, 05:08 AM
Okamimaru

Quote:

Originally Posted by PerrinTaveren

i won't even argue with you, i didn't say explain me things.I said i ''googled'' it. You can't know you are unaware of your ignorance until you realize it. I told you i wasn't aware i was doing a wrong thing so that's why i didn't look, but when i got aware, i did.

Im asking why you didn't look anything up before starting the game? I started the same time as you in similar circumstances (newish to online gaming in general, Ragnarok online was my only other game) but while I was downloading the game I was looking up everything I could online. I learned all about classes and roles and skills... I formed a plan for getting my chocobo and becoming a ninja... before entering sastasha I had already looked it up to see what i was getting into... I let people know I was totally new for like the first 10 dungeons... I STILL watch ex primal and savage raid guides before going in... mentors are NOT guides...
03-30-2018, 05:16 AM
PerrinTaveren

Quote:

Originally Posted by Okamimaru

Im asking why you didn't look anything up before starting the game? I started the same time as you in similar circumstances (newish to online gaming in general, Ragnarok online was my only other game) but while I was downloading the game I was looking up everything I could online. I learned all about classes and roles and skills... I formed a plan for getting my chocobo and becoming a ninja... before entering sastasha I had already looked it up to see what i was getting into... I let people know I was totally new for like the first 10 dungeons... I STILL watch ex primal and savage raid guides before going in... mentors are NOT guides...

i started this game because it is final fantasy, not an mmo. and really i didn't think of looking at something. i never do in single player games because of spoilers. i don't say it is not my fault, i just say not every people looks and that's why there are mentors i think.

And ofc now i watch about everything before i go into an ex or savage fight. i am talking about the first week i was into this game like 2 years ago:)
03-30-2018, 05:34 AM
Okamimaru

What I'm trying to say is people seem to expect mentors to be guides for everything and blame us when we don't feel like answering stupid questions (I've seen people who were more interested in asking about apartments than the mechanics of the trial we kept wiping to)... if you die in a fight ask why, but wait til people can actually reply without dying in the process...if you got questions ask... use the novice network, fcs, or God forbid just Google it real quick... but don't expect to have your hand held in content because you never bothered to figure out the basics (movement, roles, basic toolkit) before joining a party... and this is coming from one of the few mentors willing to run ex trials in mentor roulette for the duration of the timer if need be...
03-30-2018, 06:52 AM
Rowde

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

No it is not, all you are doing is increasing trolling mentors while solving nothing.
45 mins is too long to be sitting there and have people not even try to listen to you, furthermore why is only the mentor getting this 3 hr penalty? the point I was making was others need it as well who are trying to troll and sabotage.

All you are doing is trying to punish mentors for no reason. No I fully oppose that. I am sorry you are trying to punish the whole group of mentors because of a select few. That is not fair to them.

Please... don't play the victim card. You and I both know that Mentors abandoning any trial or dungeon that might be perceived as "difficult" or "taking too long" is far more rampant a problem than these supposed groups of trolls that get together with the sole purpose of making life difficult for Mentors.

This issue is prevalent in all roulettes in fact, I still see ppl insta drop from Steps of Faith even though that Trial is auto-win now. Can easily be cleared sync'd with six ppl before hitting the second wall and ignoring dragonators.

However, other roulettes are other roulettes. Mentor Roulette is a different beast entirely. The issue is that far too many ppl treat it like "just another roulette" and aren't actually prepared, or possibly even capable, to potentially have to help and/or teach new players how to complete the duty they get placed into. Increasing the penalties for bad behavior by Mentors using the roulette will also serve as a deterrent to keep these poor mentors out.

AND once again, If you can prove that another player is actively trolling and or sabotaging you need to be reporting the incident and help the GMs build a proper case against that individual so they can potentially take informed actions up to and including bans. Not rage quitting and just letting them repeat the cycle against somebody else. I know, it requires an extra amount of effort, patience and levelheadedness to have the resolve and initiative to fill out one of these reports... but arguably, those are all traits a good mentor should have anyway...
03-30-2018, 11:31 AM
Luin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rongway

It sounds like you're asking for mentors to perform handholding duties. That is not mentoring.

One does not need to go through all that to explain MSQ. There is an active help entry for it. There is a HUD element dedicated to it. Newbies don't need us to take them by the hand and walk them over to the correct NPC. At most, a brief explanation of, "MSQ are the quests that advance the main storyline. It's helpful to give it a higher priority than side quests because you will unlock many features and duties over the course of the MSQ. There is a HUD element that will always show your next MSQ if you find yourself lost. You don't see it? Maybe it's turned off. Here's how to turn it on."

You're greatly overestimating some players. Some really do need you to be that specific. And besides that, how do they even know the difference between a side quest or a main scenario quest? How will you describe it to them?

There's active help entries for nearly all relevant mechanics. There are still people that don't know how something as simple as the Party Finder works, or how to enter a duty unsynced, meld materia, or how to spiritbond. Let's not even talk about how many people that still dont understand weekly lockouts. On this very forum people cant count to 450, think skills like shikuchi are instant teleports, and don't know how road to 60 works (Those are all recent "bug" reports, and all could be solved just by reading tooltips).

Then, consider this. If you will describe it to them, how will you do that with at least 100+ other people in the same chatroom? On small servers it's not so bad, but even if you use /tell you'll often have conflicting information when even only a few people are trying to answer a question. This isn't even considering trolls purposely feeding false information.

Also, you focused on one example I provided only to show how inane some requests can be. It's true that many questions are more reasonable, but you need to respond to everything. And practically speaking, mentors are there to handhold. If you don't have patience you shouldn't be a mentor. You don't just give up. If someone can't do a dungeon you don't just say "go do hall of the novice" and leave. You stay and you help the player get better. Will they? Nobody knows. But if you don't try then they definitely won't.
03-30-2018, 04:58 PM
Reinha

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rowde

However, other roulettes are other roulettes. Mentor Roulette is a different beast entirely. The issue is that far too many ppl treat it like "just another roulette" and aren't actually prepared, or possibly even capable, to potentially have to help and/or teach new players how to complete the duty they get placed into. Increasing the penalties for bad behavior by Mentors using the roulette will also serve as a deterrent to keep these poor mentors out.

According to patch notes the purpose of Mentor Roulette is to fill queues for all kinds of content. Nothing more. So it is just another roulette and any other meaning is something the players (and you) are making up. The responsibilities of a Mentor wearing the icon are identical whether they were placed in the duty by Mentor Roulette or not.

I'm not against increasing the penalty for leaving a duty or for being kicked from one, but these measures should be applied to all players. Mentors are supposed to be exemplars of players etiquette, so if you want them to stay in duties and try harder then you should expect the same of everyone else. No one should get a free pass to behave poorly.

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