O5N is unfair for pure healer

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Originally Posted by Fayo

Jump potion boys <3! then after that you just use your chocobro

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Honestly if you are just a frustrated jumper, it's worth explaining the FFXIV treats its healers as what most MMO's consider "support" classes.

The questlines also deal in this. The CNJ/WHM questline opens with a girl that is constantly putting herself in danger by healing and only healing, and white magic is so devestatingly powerful it's a closely guarded secret.

SCH starts off as a DPS job, but converts the pet into a healer/supporter and adds a variety of mitigation heals to it's pool of damaging skills.

AST is all about buffs. In fact, I think if a more "pure" healer experience is your desire, this is your best job, as the card system is designed to build up allies along side your heals, and AST DPS is the lowest.

Also, Mind, Determination, Direct Hit and Crit also apply to DPS skills. You can't build a non DPS capable healer.

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Originally Posted by Berteaux_Braumegain

How is it not relevant? The Conjurer story continually says Conjurers use elemental powers because that's their job. I don't think it's coincidence that every elemental skill (except the water one) is an offensive one, especially given that Sylphie continually points out that she doesn't want to do anything except heal.

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Sylphie used her own life force to heal the others, which in result would've gotten her killed sooner or later, like how it happened to her mother. Through some chain of events because of the death, sylphie denied using the powers of the elements at all. Even water. Basically, it was a type of Cast from Hit Points she performed.

She got better in the end, though.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Are we talking about the game wher, there are wet noodle tanks, who have also no idea about the CD's or never use the tanks stance, there are dps that does not dodge aoe's for the sake of casting spell, for low levels the healers job is not a simple task, even sastasha gives a pressure, since tanks there are soft and pulling 2 groups is like playing a roulette.
Not to mention the "pro super i will carry" tanks that pull entire dungeon level and go with offensive stance for the fastest run, sure there healer doesnt have to cast anything 100% of time right.

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I have healed almost every single content in this game since 1.0 (only current patch, Coil Savage and Ultimate excluded) and I have never ever met a tank so bad I would have not had any time to DPS. Of course there are situations which require a lot of healing, but looking at standard runs rather than exceptions, it is clear healers should have plenty of time to DPS in all content.

I don't know if you've played healer in this content yourself, but in many low level dungeons you don't really need to cast many heals at all during pulls. In Sastasha you mentioned as an example, I once watched my partner heal it in full-time cleric stance (pre-SB) using nothing but Essential Dignity. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/i...es/biggrin.png

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Originally Posted by Fayo

I think you're confusing me with someone else to be honest ^__^

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You only swapped your forum's character to an alt in Gilgamesh. I stand by what I just said.

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Originally Posted by Taika

I have healed almost every single content in this game since 1.0 (only current patch, Coil Savage and Ultimate excluded) and I have never ever met a tank so bad I would have not had any time to DPS. Of course there are situations which require a lot of healing, but looking at standard runs rather than exceptions, it is clear healers should have plenty of time to DPS in all content.

I don't know if you've played healer in this content yourself, but in many low level dungeons you don't really need to cast many heals at all during pulls. In Sastasha you mentioned as an example, I once watched my partner heal it in full-time cleric stance (pre-SB) using nothing but Essential Dignity. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/i...es/biggrin.png

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It's usually groups that make that happen for me and generally in the 24 man's. There's been a number of Rabanasty runs where I barely had time to get my full suite of dots situated before someone else died to an insta-death mechanic or stood in the stupid. It's why I generally prefer running those things with a co-healer I trust because between the two of us we both have time to DPS /while/ fixing all the dumpster fires. The alliance raids are about the only content where I can consistently say that I never expect to get a steady amount of DPS off, but then again that's unsurprising given how many people go into them and expect to be carried.

That said I agree in that I can't really think of a single instance where I queue'd with just a tank that was so terribly bad that I had no time to switch in DPS when I was able. About the only instances I can even remotely compare was running some of the SB dungeons at level before the SCH nerfs were sorted out and all the WARs running around had yet to get used to their class changes - and even then it was only one or two runs of Ala Mhigo and Doma oddly enough that had such instances. Once everything settled down however it's never happened again.

Also I weep for pre-SB Cleric's Stance... I miss it so. :<

White magic have both restorative and damaging spells, so I expect a decent Acolyte of white magic using both.

"pure healers" are just halfway their path to master their magick.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

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While I understand your point - and agree with you - I'd say that the community here will not listen a word. To them, healers are a DPS class who heals, more like a RDM with better heals. And no one will listen or even change their behaviour towards any situation that lightly resembles a healer not doing any damage. It is futile to try, since they wrote this rule on the stone and disobey it is a glaring sin that should be punished with death.

And the most baffling is when they overestimate the damage done by a healer or underestimate how bad can be a DF party. It is more likely they're now DPS who never healed a DF party since the 1st Umbral Era and never were on a bad party or think that people standing on the bad is just a legend.

Don't waste your time trying to discuss with people who just impose their dogma. I tried and right now I'm burned to the point of thinking on quit healing. Don't do it with yourself.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

And the most baffling is when they overestimate the damage done by a healer or underestimate how bad can be a DF party. It is more likely they're now DPS who never healed a DF party since the 1st Umbral Era and never were on a bad party or think that people standing on the bad is just a legend.

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I can let you know right now that I do all my DF content as a healer, most often solo queueing and rarely queueing with a DPS buddy, and my views are based on this extensive experience of actually healing a lot of different random groups in all levels of content. And, like I said, I've never had a group in which I haven't had a chance to DPS at all.

I would be very interested in seeing someone post logs or video evidence from a run where DPSing as a healer would be literally impossible or at least close to it. My mind is far from being set in stone, as I'm more than willing to change my stance if I see evidence proving me wrong. :)

Edit: I should add, in case it isn't clear to everyone, that there's a difference in content being possible to DPS in, and DPS being a reasonable expectation from the healer in that situation. For example, a while ago I was leveling my DRK and ended up in Library hard with a newbie healer who was not able to survive the wall boss. If the healer would have handled the boss mechanics and the basics of their job, they would have been able to DPS quite a lot. But since they didn't handle either, it would have been an unreasonable expectation from them, and I did not even encourage them to try DPSing, but instead tried to cheer them on and help them handle the mechanics. In the end I ended up soloing about 30% (I think, not entirely sure) of the boss on our third try (since the healer always died and no other party members had self heals), but I know the healer still tried their best. So saying healers generally have room for DPS in standard situations in all content does not mean that all healers should be expected to DPS (at least a lot) in all content in every situation.

We've had conversations in other threads on the very subject of why the devs expect healer and tank DPS to be minimal, yet the damage output of the actual damage dealing focussed jobs isn't "good enough" for most content.

These conversations always end up going in circles, (Why is WAR so attack focussed? Why are heals tuned so high?) and the last one deteriorated as it included extremely parse happy players, which is a ToS violation and implied toxicity magnet.

My thoughts are more that the devs abhor the speedrunning meta of the game, and since Stormblood, they have been actively working to break the community of it. It's not working. Simultaneously, they want us to use our whole skillset.

So, who knows.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

We've had conversations in other threads on the very subject of why the devs expect healer and tank DPS to be minimal, yet the damage output of the actual damage dealing focussed jobs isn't "good enough" for most content.

These conversations always end up going in circles, (Why is WAR so attack focussed? Why are heals tuned so high?) and the last one deteriorated as it included extremely parse happy players, which is a ToS violation and implied toxicity magnet.

My thoughts are more that the devs abhor the speedrunning meta of the game, and since Stormblood, they have been actively working to break the community of it. It's not working. Simultaneously, they want us to use our whole skillset.

So, who knows.

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Basically this. I hate the design of this game but have pretty much consigned myself to it because the developers have constantly conflicting philosophies and don't seem inclined to do the major balance tuning necessary to pivot towards their declared stance ("tank/healer DPS isn't necessary"). Like, show me at even full BiS 340 groups that could clear Deltascape Savage without healer DPS? LOL. At this point, if you're coming into this game expecting to do any heavy lifting wrt healing you're in for disappointment. If you're the sort who uses phrases like "healbot" or "whack-a-mole" to describe your healing experience in other games you'll probably love this one. That's all there really is to it.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

While I understand your point - and agree with you - I'd say that the community here will not listen a word. To them, healers are a DPS class who heals, more like a RDM with better heals.

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lol wat? Who here says healers are a DPS class with heals? Some of us might say "you deal damage until you need to heal" but we never say "you are a DPS who has to heal". Healing is the healer's priority. Damage is secondary.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

And no one will listen or even change their behaviour towards any situation that lightly resembles a healer not doing any damage. It is futile to try, since they wrote this rule on the stone and disobey it is a glaring sin that should be punished with death.

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We don't change our "behaviour" toward healers not dealing damage because there has never been any explanation on how it would be beneficial. Not dealing damage, when you are able to, is a detriment to your team. You are looking for an entirely different game when you ask for content that would require healers to heal 95% of the time.

And no, you're being hyperbolic. Most healers understand there are situations that healers may not DPS during. Being new and inexperienced for example.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

And the most baffling is when they overestimate the damage done by a healer or underestimate how bad can be a DF party. It is more likely they're now DPS who never healed a DF party since the 1st Umbral Era and never were on a bad party or think that people standing on the bad is just a legend.

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I've come to the conclusion that any healer who claims they constantly get bad tanks or DPS who die consistently, that they are actually the issue. I've been healing since ARR and have only ever run into ONE tank that I could not keep up, and that was because he refused to use CDs properly, and pulled too much for his ilvl. I run with pugs 99% of the time, and I rarely have issues keeping my team alive.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

Don't waste your time trying to discuss with people who just impose their dogma. I tried and right now I'm burned to the point of thinking on quit healing. Don't do it with yourself.

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Oh, I should have realized this was a troll post. "Dogma"? lmao. If trying to be proactive, productive, useful, and skillful are imposing a "dogma" than... I don't even know. I have yet to see any real reasoning behind your own person "dogma" and why you feel we should change the entire game to fit your wants.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

If you're the sort who uses phrases like "healbot" or "whack-a-mole" to describe your healing experience in other games you'll probably love this one.

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In what way does this game promote healbots? o_O And I would hardly call healing in this game "whack-a-mole"... If everyone is doing their job correctly that is.

I’m a pure DPS scholar. I don’t cast and kind of cures

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Basically this. I hate the design of this game but have pretty much consigned myself to it because the developers have constantly conflicting philosophies

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yeah, IDK. You want us to dps, ok, but why do we have to do more than real DPS? I mean, real DPS generally don't have to react as quickly as we do to circumstances nor budget their resources anywhere nearly as much as a healer. Like a DPS is never going to need to stop dpsing to heal someone who just messed up a mechanic, nor do they need to decide whether they should use their damage buff as damage, or as healing. I mean, and with AST you have a third layer in card management and usage which just is groan-worthy. Our DPS actions may be simple, but we have a lot more mental overhead than many DPS in terms of play.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

yeah, IDK. You want us to dps, ok, but why do we have to do more than real DPS? I mean, real DPS generally don't have to react as quickly as we do to circumstances nor budget their resources anywhere nearly as much as a healer. Like a DPS is never going to need to stop dpsing to heal someone who just messed up a mechanic, nor do they need to decide whether they should use their damage buff as damage, or as healing. I mean, and with AST you have a third layer in card management and usage which just is groan-worthy. Our DPS actions may be simple, but we have a lot more mental overhead than many DPS in terms of play.

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All roles are a bit different in what's required from them, and different players find different roles easy or hard or enjoyable or unpleasant. DDs may have only "one job" (which isn't even strictly true since they're expected to buff, debuff, raise etc. in addition to DPSing), but it takes a lot of effort pushing great DPS by keeping your rotation up, adjusting that rotation for each fight, and maximising your actions per minute while handing the fight mechanics (which also means things like minimising your movement and all other downtime while you're doing them). There's a huge difference in this game between a passable and a great DD player, which in my opinion does not merely show that most DD players are bad and/or lazy, but rather that it really takes some effort maximising your performance as one.

For healers and tanks, their basic priority job is much simpler, and the challenge of those roles comes more from minimising the effort you need to put into handling that part of your job while maximising your usefulness to your group with DPS. If a healer or a tank would just heal or tank, they would be simply using much less abilities and much less often than the DDs. Which is why they are expected to participate in the DPS part too (after first handling the primary part of their role).

But, I think this is the grand misunderstanding with FFXIV's take on the holy trinity.

Everyone has to maximize their DPS. Even if you aren't a DPS.

Even the "difficulty" of damage dealers comes down to them simply having more skills to add more DPS, verses our healers having their abilities split to two entire different skill sets. Tanks as well, with the addition of stances.

At this point, it feels more like it's coming down to healers that like to pepper in damage dealing spells for fun, and those that don't. As, frankly, the only reason I never questioned the "green dps" meta was that I enjoyed the play and naturally fell into that long before it was ever explained to me that this is not normal for MMO healers.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

yeah, IDK. You want us to dps, ok, but why do we have to do more than real DPS? I mean, real DPS generally don't have to react as quickly as we do to circumstances nor budget their resources anywhere nearly as much as a healer. Like a DPS is never going to need to stop dpsing to heal someone who just messed up a mechanic, nor do they need to decide whether they should use their damage buff as damage, or as healing. I mean, and with AST you have a third layer in card management and usage which just is groan-worthy. Our DPS actions may be simple, but we have a lot more mental overhead than many DPS in terms of play.

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If doing DPS as a healer was actually hard I probably wouldn't hate it as much. As it stands, our healing kits are overloaded with 0 cost absurdly-powerful short-cooldown oGCDs making mana management and cooldown usage a joke, and our DPS kits consist of 1-2 DoTs, a single-target filler and an AOE filler. They're incredibly banal. Old Cleric Stance offered a layer of what I'd call "artificial difficulty" since DPS windows were already massive swathes of time and absurdly safe, so I'm not sorry they got rid of it, but that still doesn't mean I don't think playing a healer in this game is monstrously unsatisfying and dull. Sorry, my complaints about healer DPS aren't because I feel like we're getting the shaft wrt multi-tasking, it's because healing is so easy even at the Savage level that healers have too much time to stand around and pick their butts that they DPS, and are expected to DPS now to meet arbitrary hard enrage requirements.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

In what way does this game promote healbots? o_O And I would hardly call healing in this game "whack-a-mole"... If everyone is doing their job correctly that is.

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You misunderstood my statement. I said that if you're the sort who refers to healing in other MMOs as "healbotty" or "whackamole" you'll like FFXIV, since those are common disparaging statements I've seen whenever people talk about, say, their healing experience in WoW.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

While I understand your point - and agree with you - I'd say that the community here will not listen a word. To them, healers are a DPS class who heals, more like a RDM with better heals. And no one will listen or even change their behaviour towards any situation that lightly resembles a healer not doing any damage. It is futile to try, since they wrote this rule on the stone and disobey it is a glaring sin that should be punished with death.

And the most baffling is when they overestimate the damage done by a healer or underestimate how bad can be a DF party. It is more likely they're now DPS who never healed a DF party since the 1st Umbral Era and never were on a bad party or think that people standing on the bad is just a legend.

Don't waste your time trying to discuss with people who just impose their dogma. I tried and right now I'm burned to the point of thinking on quit healing. Don't do it with yourself.

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I really hope you quit healing. I really, really hope you go through with it, because you sound like someone I would never want to have in my DF or PF parties.

Me on Scholar encountering "pure" healers in this raid
https://i.imgur.com/zvd9ANp.png

Somewhat tangential to the topic but I do think it would be fun if healers could heal the ghosts for damage like in some old FFs. >.>

I don't really understand the OP. If you're a healer and you're only healing, how would that make the fight "impossible"? I can see how early on a few healers won't DPS while they learn just to be safe, go through it a few times before you see where the big damage is, and parts where dps is safer - at this early stage I don't think people should be pushing them to all-out dps either, everyone staying on their feet is optimal in brand new content, and in turn others learning are going to be taking more damage.

and yes, I miss the old notion of heals damaging undead, raise insta-killing them, and generally having fun with reflect :)

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Originally Posted by XiXiQ

I don't really understand the OP. If you're a healer and you're only healing, how would that make the fight "impossible"?

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In O5 normal, there's a segment where the party has to phase to their own solo part of the fight and kill a ghost mob to avoid being one-shot. "Heals-only" can't get past this part, though I'm pretty sure I have never actually encountered this in all my time running this fight so far (even healers who don't really like DPSing magically churn out some filler spells to get past it). I'm pretty sure this is a troll post slyly mocking people like myself who don't like FFXIV's "mash oGCDs and DPS between" heal design (though it's worth pointing out that I raid Savage, do DPS, and you can check my FFLogs etc if you wanna see that I don't hold back my parties. I just don't like it).

It's actually kind of funny because on the Savage version of this fight, healers barely attack the passenger car mob at all. It puts an immunity debuff on you that is actually cleansable, unlike pretty much every other raid content debuff in this game, and you attrition war it while it slowly damages itself. I was so used to everything in this game involving DPS checking your face off, so this was a pleasant surprise. Not difficult by any means (I just put regen on myself and used Essential Dignity and still DPS'd it lol), but a nice change of pace.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

In O5 normal, there's a segment where the party has to phase to their own solo part of the fight and kill a ghost mob to avoid being one-shot. "Heals-only" can't get past this part, though I'm pretty sure I have never actually encountered this in all my time running this fight so far (even healers who don't really like DPSing magically churn out some filler spells to get past it). I'm pretty sure thisis a troll post slyly mocking people like myself who don't like FFXIV's "mash oGCDs and DPS between" heal design (though it's worth pointing out that I raid Savage, do DPS, and you can check my FFLogs etc if you wanna see that I don't hold back my parties. I just don't like it).

It's actually kind of funny because on the Savage version of this fight, healers barely attack the passenger car mob at all. It puts an immunity debuff on you that is actually cleansable, unlike pretty much every other raid content debuff in this game, and you attrition war it while it slowly damages itself. I was so used to everything in this game involving DPS checking your face off, so this was a pleasant surprise. Not difficult by any means (I just put regen on myself and used Essential Dignity and still DPS'd it lol), but a nice change of pace.

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How does pressing a different button make you like or dislike something?

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

How does pressing a different button make you like or dislike something?

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I mean, why differentiate between healing/tanking/DPSing at all, then? They're just button presses if you really want to be that reductionist about it.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I mean, why differentiate between healing/tanking/DPSing at all, then? They're just button presses if you really want to be that reductionist about it.

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that doesn't answer the question. I do not understand "though it's worth pointing out that I raid Savage, do DPS, and you can check my FFLogs etc if you wanna see that I don't hold back my parties. I just don't like it"

1. why are you doing something you do not like? Why play if you are not having fun?
2. How is hitting a button different to do damage or heal? what is there not to like?

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

that doesn't answer the question. I do not understand "though it's worth pointing out that I raid Savage, do DPS, and you can check my FFLogs etc if you wanna see that I don't hold back my parties. I just don't like it"

1. why are you doing something you do not like? Why play if you are not having fun?
2. How is hitting a button different to do damage or heal? what is there not to like?

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1.) I like doing the raid content with my friends - I took a break for a bit because Gordias Savage hurt my butt, and when I came back the only available slot they had for raid was healer. Disliking XIV's healer design < the fun I have with my friends. "Quitting" isn't the only option, you know. It's the same reason people dislike how formulaic patch releases are, but still keep playing while voicing their displeasure. I don't hate it enough to quit, but that doesn't mean I have to talk about how awesome it is that I'm a DoT-n-cooldown bot.

2.) I told you, how is hitting a button to tank, or DPS, or heal any different than hitting any other button? They're all buttons in the end. Why bother having classes at all? Maybe it's because some people like filling certain roles within a party, and feel like the role they prefer has too much emphasis on doing another role they might not prefer? There's not any point in explaining if you think the issue just boils down to viewing every class as a "button presser" at the heart of it. Why play BRD vs MCH, they both just push buttons? Why play WAR vs DRG, they both are melee and just push buttons?

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

2.) I told you, how is hitting a button to tank, or DPS, or heal any different than hitting any other button? They're all buttons in the end. Why bother having classes at all? Maybe it's because some people like filling certain roles within a party, and feel like the role they prefer has too much emphasis on doing another role they might not prefer? There's not any point in explaining if you think the issue just boils down to viewing every class as a "button presser" at the heart of it. Why play BRD vs MCH, they both just push buttons? Why play WAR vs DRG, they both are melee and just push buttons?

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You can repeat it all you like, but asking a question to a question does not answer things. I do not see the difference of "being a pure healer" and healing with something else to do. In this game if you try to be a "pure healer" there is simply nothing to do, so your statement of "how is hitting a button to tank, or DPS, or heal any different than hitting any other button? They're all buttons in the end. Why bother having classes at all?" is not fitting to what I asked.

Also I think the answer to your question of " BRD vs MCH, they both just push buttons? Why play WAR vs DRG" is simply what flows better to people in regards of rotations. MCH for example is heavily reliant on burst window and here is plenty that do not like it.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

You can repeat it all you like, but asking a question to a question does not answer things. I do not see the difference of "being a pure healer" and healing with something else to do. In this game if you try to be a "pure healer" there is simply nothing to do, so your statement of "how is hitting a button to tank, or DPS, or heal any different than hitting any other button? They're all buttons in the end. Why bother having classes at all?" is not fitting to what I asked

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I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse at this point, sorry. If you don't understand why someone playing healer might not want a huge emphasis to be on DPS abilities for endgame content because "they're just buttons" then there's probably no sensical way to explain it to you. Suffice it to say, I'd like it if healing were more challenging, but respect that it would require a retooling so large that it's not worth the developer's time to do outside of maaaaaybe an expansion (and given the screaming we had with no new tanks or healers with Stormblood to better work on their balance I don't think the community would sit out another one in favor of such a controversial change).

Honestly though, I don't think it's really an issue at this point. Good players play around optimizing and bad ones sit around 10 CPM throwing out the odd Cure or Aspected Helios in Duty Finder. The OP is a joke.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

In O5 normal, there's a segment where the party has to phase to their own solo part of the fight and kill a ghost mob to avoid being one-shot. "Heals-only" can't get past this part

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Ah, of course. The only thing killing said healer is stuborness :)

I am also curious to know how these "pure" healers solo anything at all. Do they just die if something happens to attack them in open world rather than (omg) using dps skills?

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse at this point, sorry. If you don't understand whysomeone playing healer might not want a huge emphasis to be on DPS abilities for endgame content because "they're just buttons" then there's probably no sensical way to explain it to you. Suffice it to say, I'd like it if healing were more challenging, but respect that it would require a retooling so large that it's not worth the developer's time to do outside of maaaaaybe an expansion (and given the screaming we had with no new tanks or healers with Stormblood to better work on their balance I don't think the community would sit out another one in favor of such a controversial change).

Honestly though, I don't think it's really an issue at this point. Good players play around optimizing and bad ones sit around 10 CPM throwing out the odd Cure or Aspected Helios in Duty Finder. The OP is a joke.

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Same can be said for you then, you are being obtuse for thinking casting stone is different then casting cure. It has the same feel as far as being in a rotation. Do you just want to get away with standing around doing nothing if the dps checks in savage allows it? Saying you do not want to do DPS is just strange to me, thinking it is different when it isnt.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

Same can be said for you then, you are being obtuse for thinking casting stone is different then casting cure. It has the same feel as far as being in a rotation. Do you just want to get away with standing around doing nothing if the dps checks in savage allows it? Saying you do not want to do DPS is just strange to me, thinking it is different when it isnt.

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Do you presume healers in other MMOs "stand around doing nothing?" Healers in WoW raids work significantly harder despite scarcely DPSing. Why? Because the sheer amount of outgoing damage is several times that of FFXIV, thus healers actually have to perform their role far more frequently. Basically, you're missing the argument. Many healers want more challenging healing mechanics because they prefer that aesthetic. That isn't to say they necessarily want to never DPS but FXIV allows for an insane amount of downtime. Even in Savage, you'll spend far more time spamming Stone/Malefic/Broil than you ever will any healing spell.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Why hang so many dogs on the OP, when the game developer himself has told healer should not be asked to do dps? They have just admitted that, healers are for healing and you cant ask them to do dps.

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Yoshida can say whatever he fancies. They simply don't design fights that warrants healers to only heal. When forming a static or pug, majority opinion will generally prevail. If they absolutely can ask the healers to DPS, and kick them for refusing. After all, it's their party.

Speaking only for myself. I won't raid in a static with healers that refuse to DPS. You are functionally useless more than half the battle. Why should you be allowed to stand around while I and everyone else utilities our full kit?

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

While I understand your point - and agree with you - I'd say that the community here will not listen a word.

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The community decides based on functionality. If there isn't enough outgoing damage to warrant consistent healing, you're useless to the group should you not contribute DPS. It boils down to simple pragmatism. I can take a healer who stands around doing absolutely nothing unless some form of damage happens or I can take one who deals damage while still performing their role properly. Is it truly surprising why the community prefers the latter?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Do you presume healers in other MMOs "stand around doing nothing?" Healers in WoW raids work significantly harder despite scarcely DPSing. Why? Because the sheer amount of outgoing damage is several times that of FFXIV, thus healers actually have to perform their role far more frequently. Basically, you're missing the argument. Manyhealers want more challenging healing mechanics because they prefer that aesthetic. That isn't to say they necessarily want to never DPS but FXIV allows for an insane amount of downtime. Even in Savage, you'll spend far more time spamming Stone/Malefic/Broil than you ever will any healing spell.

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It is possible, but we are talking in the context of FFXIV, I do not know how healing works in other games in high end content, it is up to them to explain that and why that feels different and explain the specific complaint. As is though, the feel of casting cure or stone in this game is no different in a scope of a feel of a rotation, and I am trying to figure out what they are talking about.

How can you "hate" something when the feel is the same, it is confusing idea to me. Now it is totally different to say they hate the general healing role in this game, vs just hating using DPS abilities, but they did not want to explain that so... im lost. To me they are basically saying they just want to sit there and do nothing for short periods of time (because pressing buttons too fast is too hard), or get away with overhealing more, but.. that is why I was trying to ask for clarification, something they refused to do, for some reason. (A tank told me to slow down in pressing buttons so I may have a scar bias -.-)

Another thing odd to me is I feel true friends would allow others try different classes time to time but.. I really never ran into such things, I do not care about what class to play, I just want things done. There is nothing I "hate" (other then development making questionable design changes in patches and players that fail to meet easy skill bars.)

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

It is possible, but we are talking in the context of FFXIV, I do not know how healing works in other games in high end content, it is up to them to explain that and why that feels different and explain the specific complaint. As is though, the feel of casting cure or stone in this game is no different in a scope of a feel of a rotation, and I am trying to figure out what they are talking about.

How can you "hate" something when the feel is the same, it is confusing idea to me. Now it is totally different to say they hate the general healing role in this game, vs just hating using DPS abilities, but they did not want to explain that so... im lost. To me they are basically saying they just want to sit there and do nothing, or get away with overhealing more, but.. that is why I was trying to ask for clarification, something they refused to do, for some reason.

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Feelings are entirely subjective. For example, I find Astro DPS insufferably boring yet enjoy DPSing on WHM. Despite Stone IV and Malefic III essentially serving the same purpose, WHM simply has better alternatives. At least, I believe so. As for healing, I'm paying attention to a multitude of things than simply using "Cure" in place of Stone.

- Will this overheal?
- Can Regen ticks cover it?
- Is the damage negligible enough I can ignore it?
- Should I shield/Benison the upcoming hit?
- Will <insert heal spell> be enough?

Malefic III, on the other hand, is brainless button mashing until I finally get to use Combust II again. That's a highlight.

In other games, very rarely do healers or the equivalent spent less time actually casting heals. They still do, however the ratio promotes their actual role first whereas in FFXIV, you're more or less a DPS who heals. That isn't to say there is functionally anything wrong with such a design philosophy per se. It does come across a little silly though when Yoshida attempts to argue healers aren't expected to DPS.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

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I said this earlier, but FFXIV is really unusual in how it's built healers in group content.

Many MMOs will give the healer jobs the most remedial means to attack, but the skillset and power leaves you to have to spend 99% of your time healing.

Obviously, there are players who enjoy that and are used to that, so when FFXIV's "healer" jobs play more like what other games would consider a more support focused job (emphasis on heals, buffs, damage, in that priority order), players with that experience find it odd, off-putting even. Healing in FFXIV is barely healing at all.

FFXIV also, comparatively, tunes it's heal to be quite strong, so you have more time between casting heals.

While most of us like the more dynamic nature of the role in FFXIV, and "encourage" other players to embrace it, you're bound to get exceptions that really just want to heal, heal, heal.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

And the most baffling is when they overestimate the damage done by a healer or underestimate how bad can be a DF party. It is more likely they're now DPS who never healed a DF party since the 1st Umbral Era and never were on a bad party or think that people standing on the bad is just a legend.

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Oh come on now.

How many different logs have I shown and broken down for you on the Healer board over the last month or so? I've done 3.8k dps in a dungeon with a premade that curb stomped the place in 11 minutes and I've done 3.8k dps in a solo queue where it's taken 20+. Things need to go worse than that extreme before my damage starts tailing off and even then I can usually still hold at least 3k.

Implying that I'm 'imposing my dogma' is just insulting. I'm basing my opinion on the facts infront of me as much as I am my own personal views.

Problem I personally have with doing DPS as a healer(Astrologian to be precise) is how utterly boring it is.
Single target: Cast Combust every 30 seconds -> spam Malefic.
AoE: Earthly Star if it's not needed elsewhere -> spam Gravity.

There is no need to put any thoughts into it, no rotation to keep in mind, no procs to look forward to.

Healing is fine. Using cards is fine too, but DPSing just feels terribly bland. Since implementation of role skills I don't even have to plan DPS / Healing around Cleric Stance anymore.

Also dealing damage feels really slow. Not sure if this issue is specific to Astrologians, but since we basically have the lowest DPS of all classes to balance our card usage, not only is my DPS "rotation" reduced down to spamming a single skill - It also takes me forever to kill something, so DPSing does not feel rewarding at all, no matter if I'm alone, running a dungeon or going on a raid.

When healing entire parties from 1 HP to full in the blink of an eye, I feel powerful. When placing card buffs on everyone, I feel powerful too!
And when DPSing I don't. It's not satisfying at all. Which honestly would be perfectly fine... IF combat was not "forcing" me into DPSing more than I feel it should.

I'm not saying that everything is undescribably terrible. If that was the case, I'd not be playing a healing class in the first place. The above is just an insight to showcase how I feel when dealing damage takes priority during combat, and why I feel this way. I do it, because encounters encourage me to do so, and I'm glad for every second I don't have to, because there is something else to do, that feels more useful.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

it's because healing is so easy even at the Savage level that healers have too much time to stand around and pick their butts that they DPS, and are expected to DPS now to meet arbitrary hard enrage requirements.

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I don't think it's that easy to heal in savage, and I think people overrate ogcd heals. We have them because it's pretty easy for a tank to lose up to 75% of their health, or a DPS needing to be brought from zero to full in a second or two to avoid another death. I kind of think people who assume its easy tend to forget that if it is for them, it's because they've practiced one single fight for 9-40 or more realtime hours until every phase is ingrained in them and their dps and tanks make zero mistakes.

But if you are having to heal, dps, and buff while needing to react in a split second because someone made a mistake that will wipe them, while planning all your abilities to be used at the right time to give you freedom to GCD, it's not easy at all. If anything the boss encounters in this game have to avoid meaningful randomness because we simply can't react that fast. If we had to do a six button dps combo with buffs, we wouldn't be able to dps at all; we'd be always interrupting our combo because our oGCDS are not enough unless both healers have perfect coordination and the rest of the party made absolutely zero mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Fayo

I'm a healer and like any good healer I only heal, this fight is literally impossible for me to clear because of the way it's made. We need to add a npc in that we would need to heal so that he would deal with the ghost for us. I don't know how I could clear this fight otherwise

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As a White Mage myself...you should be ashamed of yourself. Leave...don't bother coming back until you learn to be a proper white mage.

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Originally Posted by Emstidor

I really hope you quit healing. I really, really hope you go through with it, because you sound like someone I would never want to have in my DF or PF parties.

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Show us your parse, so we could judge your playstyle too.

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Originally Posted by Taika

I have healed almost every single content in this game since 1.0 (only current patch, Coil Savage and Ultimate excluded) and I have never ever met a tank so bad I would have not had any time to DPS. Of course there are situations which require a lot of healing, but looking at standard runs rather than exceptions, it is clear healers should have plenty of time to DPS in all content.

I don't know if you've played healer in this content yourself, but in many low level dungeons you don't really need to cast many heals at all during pulls. In Sastasha you mentioned as an example, I once watched my partner heal it in full-time cleric stance (pre-SB) using nothing but Essential Dignity. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/i...es/biggrin.png

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That does not change my experience with the healers in the game.
I had just too many situations where i had to pop up 2 cd's at the time and lifesteal/clemency for the sake of keeping me alive, because healer decided to do dps.
I dont like it at all, just keep me alive when im tanking it.
IT WOULD BE more beneficial to the party if i will be able to pull more than 3 groups of mobs and not die in the process.

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Originally Posted by Taika

I can let you know right now that I do all my DF content as a healer, most often solo queueing and rarely queueing with a DPS buddy, and my views are based on this extensive experience of actually healing a lot of different random groups in all levels of content. And, like I said, I've never had a group in which I haven't had a chance to DPS at all.

I would be very interested in seeing someone post logs or video evidence from a run where DPSing as a healer would be literally impossible or at least close to it. My mind is far from being set in stone, as I'm more than willing to change my stance if I see evidence proving me wrong. :)

Edit: I should add, in case it isn't clear to everyone, that there's a difference in content being possible to DPS in, and DPS being a reasonable expectation from the healer in that situation. For example, a while ago I was leveling my DRK and ended up in Library hard with a newbie healer who was not able to survive the wall boss. If the healer would have handled the boss mechanics and the basics of their job, they would have been able to DPS quite a lot. But since they didn't handle either, it would have been an unreasonable expectation from them, and I did not even encourage them to try DPSing, but instead tried to cheer them on and help them handle the mechanics. In the end I ended up soloing about 30% (I think, not entirely sure) of the boss on our third try (since the healer always died and no other party members had self heals), but I know the healer still tried their best. So saying healers generally have room for DPS in standard situations in all content does not mean that all healers should be expected to DPS (at least a lot) in all content in every situation.

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Still you and the big part of the community require from the healers class to do more job than you do on the DPS class.
If the dps is so difficult, so why there is so big disparity in numbers of the players of each class?
Do not ask to do your job on someone who has different job than you, the game neither the developer does not ask a healer to do dps, its just a community fantasy that is unnecessary and bad especially in dungeon runs where you have to clear a lot of trash mobs in them. Letting me pull 1 more group would make it faster than few healers dots.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

That does not change my experience with the healers in the game.
I had just too many situations where i had to pop up 2 cd's at the time and lifesteal/clemency for the sake of keeping me alive, because healer decided to do dps.
I dont like it at all, just keep me alive when im tanking it.
IT WOULD BE more beneficial to the party if i will be able to pull more than 3 groups of mobs and not die in the process.

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To paraphrase for you... "I've had healers that can't manage dps and healing properly so it is an unreasonable expectation to have!"

There are plenty of healers who can dps their hearts out irrespective of the size of a pull. You've spoken to some of them in this thread. Why do you seem to think your antecdotal evidence matters here when the plethora of people saying that they have an easy time dpsing as a healer are just being dismissed or going unacknowledged by you?

Also you've got Clemency for a reason. If your healer is in the middle of a PoM+CS Holy spam and you feel like you need healing by all means heal yourself. The ability isn't just there for soloing. You casting Clemency doesn't mean your healer is bad, for all you know they were waiting to get the most bang for their buck from an Essential Dignity/Benediction.