The Castrum Meridianum/Praetorium Change

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Originally Posted by SilverObi

This is my own perspective so feel free to refute it, but do people past 60 really still use the MSQ roulette for appreciable exp?

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You still have the 50-60 grind which is nothing to shake a stick at. That said, with everything at 70, I'd still run the roulette occasionally for the tomes if I'm getting maps for Agrippa or working on a relic. Now it won't be worth it.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

You still have the 50-60 grind which is nothing to shake a stick at. That said, with everything at 70, I'd still run the roulette occasionally for the tomes if I'm getting maps for Agrippa or working on a relic. Now it won't be worth it.

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50-60 I could see it being worth doing, I did it as well after all when I needed to. I wouldn't use poetics myself as a reason for doing it though because you obtain them so readily from so many other sources, I've been capped for months now even with building weapons and grabbing older gear for desynth and the like. I won't even suggest PotD spam even though it's more time efficient cause too many runs of THAT makes me sleepy lol

I actually think this is a band aid temporary fix. Most likely they are actually developing squadron content for the two dungeons, which (wishful thinking) may work differently and be more accessible to players who don't play squadrons.

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Originally Posted by SilverObi

This is my own perspective so feel free to refute it, but do people past 60 really still use the MSQ roulette for appreciable exp? A level appropriate dungeon awards more exp for equal or less time spent doesn't it? Again this is just me asking, cause I find the dungeons a much better use of time. If someone has the math on it, I'll gladly accept the numbers saying one way or the other.

Also this will hurt the newbies that don't know how or care to communicate with a FC or LS for help. Or know how PF works. But with the many ways to get help or easy clears for older content nowadays, maybe this won't be so much damaging to newer players as it is to those who still use MSQ for the exp bonus?

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My WHM is 61. The MSQ roulette bonus gives me 963,915 exp, which is 19.78% of my total experience needed, for about 20 minutes of something that is easy and having the peace of mind of knowing it's only 2 possible dungeons and not something like 50/60 which has more dungeons that I might not like or remember. This and guildhests roulette are the first 2 things I do when I play because whether I just woke up or I just finished a work day, they usually don't require me to be fully awake/alert.

For praet's added 15 minutes of custscenes, if they give me 2x the experience (or more) I'll probably still do it.

Some people think they won't because the patch notes don't mention it but they do mention poetics. However that means little. They have one section where they say rewards (not just poetics, "rewards" will be increased), and then in another section much lower that is specifically about tomestones is where they mention the poetics change. To me that doesn't mean there won't be an exp change or an added Cracked Crystal to incentivize it.

EDIT: apparently it's more like 30 mins added so 3x exp!

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Originally Posted by Squintina

For praet's added 15 minutes of custscenes, if they give me 2x the experience (or more) I'll probably still do it.

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Prae's cutscenes alone are 31 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

Prae's cutscenes alone are 31 minutes if you're clicking quickly.

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Someone did a test run and it was only 15 minutes added. Maybe you're thinking about the after-dungeon cutscenes from actually doing the MS Quest.

But in case I'm wrong and it is indeed 30 minutes-ish, then I 'd want at least 3x the exp.

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Originally Posted by Squintina

Someone did a test run and it was only 15 minutes added. Maybe you're thinking about the after-dungeon cutscenes from actually doing the MS Quest.

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link

I dunno if the laha/thancred cutscene at the end plays all the time or just for sprouts 1st time through as its been almost 3 years since I saw it.

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Originally Posted by Squintina

Someone did a test run and it was only 15 minutes added. Maybe you're thinking about the after-dungeon cutscenes from actually doing the MS Quest.

But in case I'm wrong and it is indeed 30 minutes-ish, then I 'd want at least 3x the exp.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wuXdb7OaoY

Not counting those, though it does depend how quickly you skip through the text

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Originally Posted by Rokke

I dunno if the laha/thancred cutscene at the end plays all the time or just for sprouts 1st time through as its been almost 3 years since I saw it. But even without that scene, it is much longer than 15 min.

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It does, but can be safetly played for a new person because after that everyone just leaves. Even at that, my link clocks the start of that cutscene at 28mins

Would auto the auto-text thing help in any way? At this point they should link Asterope to MSQ Roulette if they want people to do it.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wuXdb7OaoY

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Then 3x exp minimum it is then! (at least for me)

Of course once I get my jobs all-70 I'll probably never do it again (until the next expansion), but that would have been the same even before this new cutscene rule.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

It does, but can be safetly played for a new person because after that everyone just leaves. Even at that, my link clocks the start of that cutscene at 28mins

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If one cannot skip cutscenes anymore, you'll have to click through that to finish the run, no?

Castrum is shorter, so that one might not feel as bad.. but between gameplay + cutscenes, Prae is going to be a doozy @_@

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Originally Posted by Rokke

If one cannot skip cutscenes anymore, you'll have to click through that to finish the run, no?

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I'm HOPING they make that one skippable at least, I doubt it though

SE had to add the roulette in the first place because players were waiting in absurdly long queues to get these dungeons done- they offer no substantial rewards or incentives to re-play on their own and THOSE CUTSCENES, MAN. The auto-skip of already viewed cutscenes feature was one of the best things SE ever implemented. Now they're enforcing the mandatory viewings (which is one of the biggest pet peeves of those dungeons) and expecting us to sit through all that for 200 Poetics? No way! I've got way better things to do with my time than watch cutscenes I saw four years ago. Sorry newbies. I never bullied you for wanting to watch them since I was rushed through them myself back when Darklight gear was all the rage. But I won't be filling out parties for you any more either.

RIP MSQ roulette, may you die an honorable death.

Thread click bait is bad .. mkay?

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If they threw in 50 tomes of whatever the newest is maybe more people would put up with it.

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It could be 450 and I still wouldn't care, because of weekly limits. They cap too easily regardless.

You know how they can fix this issue? Copypasta!

They're good at copying things and just pasting something new with a fresh coat of paint on it. I don't see why we don't just have this copied for roulettes.

Example:

MSQ - standard rewards - normal version skip standard version. This way, players can do either in this version if they want and skip scenes or not. It's up to them at that point if they join this instance

MSQ - unskippable version - standard rewards + bonus incentives for players already finished with this and helping que in this version

When players start up with Praetorium or Castrum Meridian for the very first time, they don't have access to the MSQ roulette. Why not add these players to the unskippable que? This way, the first time, they do have this on the MSQ, and next time, they have access to the roulettes?

Otherwise, those incentive bonuses need to be triple the reward, or something along the lines of mendacity tomes (or double) if they want people to actually que for this dungeon. This hurts new players more than it helps if they just keep it the way it is with no actual incentives that no one will actually use after 70 and have their jobs at 70.

Echoing a great many other people, but I believe this was a poor decision.

I understand the toxicity towards new players is something that needs to be nipped in the bud before it becomes a greater problem, but I dont' feel like that was point of this change.

I feel their more immediate goal is to incentivize players to run the Main Scenario Roulette so new players don't have to rely on gathering up friends/FC mates to run the content with them. However, this change is counter-intuitive to that goal. Call me selfish, but I know I will no longer run that roulette if I am forced to spend time watching multiple cutscenes for only 80 extra Poetics, and I imagine a majority of the handful of players still running that roulette will cease to run it, too.

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Originally Posted by Tsurayu

Echoing a great many other people, but I believe this was a poor decision.

I understand the toxicity towards new players is something that needs to be nipped in the bud before it becomes a greater problem, but I dont' feel like that was point of this change.

I feel their more immediate goal is to incentivize players to run the Main Scenario Roulette so new players don't have to rely on gathering up friends/FC mates to run the content with them. However, this change is counter-intuitive to that goal. Call me selfish, but I know I will no longer run that roulette if I am forced to spend time watching multiple cutscenes for only 80 extra Poetics, and I imagine a majority of the handful of players still running that roulette will cease to run it, too.

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Which in turn is ironically going to force newbies to gather up friends, FC mates, or put up Party Finders to skip the soon to be unbearable queues. The rewards just aren't worth it like you said, especially not when you could get double that amount before running it over and over again in the same time frame.

Frankly I do worry this change is going to run some newbies off as well, because it's essentially one giant kick in the pants before the hell that is 2.1-2.55. The one swath of patches that almost no one is willing to go back and repeat, and the one that literally took me months to get through because of how apathetic I was about them all. It's practically preparing newbies for the hell that is to come, but I don't think any newbie will be thanking SE for it. :/

Would it be that hard for them to turn that into a squad like mission? Just put 8 man with 7 AI with scripted text as well as a message at the beginning like "this mission is done with AI, yadiyada, the party will explain you bosses.
And when you get in front of a boss you have one AI telling roughly what the boss does (not that it would be necessary tho)

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Would it be that hard for them to turn that into a squad like mission? Just put 8 man with 7 AI with scripted text as well as a message at the beginning like "this mission is done with AI, yadiyada, the party will explain you bosses.
And when you get in front of a boss you have one AI telling roughly what the boss does (not that it would be necessary tho)

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It would have been at the start of ARR, but right now I would say they have the tools at their disposal to make it work.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Would it be that hard for them to turn that into a squad like mission? Just put 8 man with 7 AI with scripted text as well as a message at the beginning like "this mission is done with AI, yadiyada, the party will explain you bosses.
And when you get in front of a boss you have one AI telling roughly what the boss does (not that it would be necessary tho)

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Suppose not, but it would lose the sort of grandiose feeling the whole instance had.

Can't speak for everyone, but I remember the first time I was clearing Castrum Meridianum and Praetorium was a big deal, it felt like I was really doing something major in the game for the first time with friends and random players alike (correct me if I'm remembering wrong but it was only your second ever eight-man instance after Cape Westwind, yes?). Anyway, that feeling of being part of something bigger is lost on a lot of us now that have played the game for awhile, but you don't really want to cheapen that first experience for new players by turning it into some squadron mission with glorified bots.

Need to just turn it into a solo mission

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Would it be that hard for them to turn that into a squad like mission? Just put 8 man with 7 AI with scripted text as well as a message at the beginning like "this mission is done with AI, yadiyada, the party will explain you bosses.
And when you get in front of a boss you have one AI telling roughly what the boss does (not that it would be necessary tho)

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Can the AI handle all the cannons? Will it be up to the player to actually do most of the Livia mechanics? Will the AI understand when to stop hitting near invulnerable enemies?

You've got a good start, remembering that new players won't know how to handle bosses and such, but still, the level of handholding that would likely need to go into this would definitely blunt the impact. The WoL shouldn't need to be guided through the entire mission.

Needs to be done, I agree. But I think it's more complicated than it might seem on the surface.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Can the AI handle all the cannons? Will it be up to the player to actually do most of the Livia mechanics? Will the AI understand when to stop hitting near invulnerable enemies?

You've got a good start, remembering that new players won't know how to handle bosses and such, but still, the level of handholding that would likely need to go into this would definitely blunt the impact. The WoL shouldn't need to be guided through the entire mission.

Needs to be done, I agree. But I think it's more complicated than it might seem on the surface.

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Actually they probably would be able to. The 70 SCH quest shows extremely advanced AI, to the point that while running it I actually felt like I was running it with a proper group instead of a bunch of brainless NPC's. Squadrons have been hit or miss by comparison, but that instance is why I'm firmly of the opinion that they do have the capability to make the instance runnable with NPCs. Hell, if that part of the coding causes issues then just remove it as well. There's nothing to say they can't trim these instances down for a solo run.

I don't disagree. But "trimming it down" still takes more time and resources than they're willing to put in. There's no quick/simple fix, I don't think.

Something needs to be done, though. Until these are changed, they'll continue to be a black mark on the player experience. Once they're finally fixed for good, that's one less major criticism to weigh them down.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

I don't disagree. But "trimming it down" still takes more time and resources than they're willing to put in. There's no quick/simple fix, I don't think.

Something needs to be done, though. Until these are changed, they'll continue to be a black mark on the player experience. Once they're finally fixed for good, that's one less major criticism to weigh them down.

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They've had 4 years to figure something out, and the best they could do was make CSs unskippable. Doesn't instill much confidence in them coming up with a solution.

Ultimately the best solution is to just scrap main scenario roulette entirely and just make the two solo instances.

As much as people are gonna hate on me for this, this should have been done from the start. They should also make it so you can't just pull an entire section and then click a teleport to move to the next one, leaving everybody behind in hopes that they manage to click the button before they get murdered. The only reason I haven't done MSQ roulette except a couple times with FC groups is because of not wanting to contribute to the problems new players have with it, which is a perfectly valid concern on their part. I weas also one of those players that got left behind back in the ARR days when I did both of these dungeons because of the "every dungeon must be a speedrun, screw the story" mentatlity people have.

"I'm just gonna sprinkle some of that PvP salt over here." - Yoshi-P, probably.
And yes, that salt has some of my tears.

https://i.imgur.com/H9Kkdgk.png

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Originally Posted by Driskus

As much as people are gonna hate on me for this, this should have been done from the start.

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Not everyone cares about cutscenes though, that's why you can skip cutscenes you never watched before.

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They should also make it so you can't just pull an entire section and then click a teleport to move to the next one, leaving everybody behind in hopes that they manage to click the button before they get murdered.

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If that's how your tanks pull that dungeon, they don't know what they're doing which is always a problem in and of itself.