Prohibit the advertising of content sales via the cross-server PF

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Originally Posted by Vidu

By that reasoning those ads are already a violation of the ToS, aka prohibited - so you can just go ahead and report them. No need to take a shot at clear-selling because you dont like it. If its actual ToS-violations you're worried about and you see them: Report those.
Why would you want to write something in the ToS to prohibite it, when its already in there?

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Because multiple people have reported them and nothing gets done about the same people still post the same adds everyday. And as many people have said we don't freaking care if people are selling clears we are that people are spamming up PF by posting these adds cross server intentionally under the wrong listings which makes it harder to navigate PF to look for legitimate listings,.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Because multiple people have reported them and nothing gets done about the same people still post the same adds everyday. And as many people have said we don't freaking care if people are selling clears we are that people are spamming up PF by posting these adds cross server intentionally under the wrong listings which makes it harder to navigate PF to look for legitimate listings,.

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Still waiting on those mislisting screencaps.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Because multiple people have reported them and nothing gets done about the same people still post the same adds everyday. And as many people have said we don't freaking care if people are selling clears we are that people are spamming up PF by posting these adds cross server intentionally under the wrong listings which makes it harder to navigate PF to look for legitimate listings,.

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You may want to consider your approach.....ASK...if this is legitimate or not.

SE seems has made it clear..its legit...until someone crosses the line.

The PF Ad's thus far are suspicious - not incriminating. Big difference.

Does it make it right? No.....what can we do about it? Good question.

All we can do is politely...carefully...complain. Put thought into what...how...when..where.

you'll just get ignored and treated as white noise or a waste of time otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Still waiting on those mislisting screencaps.

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I'm convinced you are trolling/harassing me at this point since you replied to someone else saying you didn't care. Its still the morning I don't see any up, please leave me alone unless you are trying to have a legitimate conversation

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

You may want to consider your approach.....ASK...if this is legitimate or not.

SE seems has made it clear..its legit...until someone crosses the line.

The PF Ad's thus far are suspicious - not incriminating. Big difference.

Does it make it right? No.....what can we do about it? Good question.

All we can do is politely...carefully...complain. Put thought into what...how...when..where.

you'll just get ignored and treated as white noise or a waste of time otherwise.

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My thing is, lets say, okay its perfectly okay to mislist stuff under the wrong PF listings, now what if everybody starts doing that cause they realize the GMs don't care, surely at that point SE would take action if you had 100s of people advertising their FCs/crafts/clear selling, etc under the roulette listings, I don't know about you but I don't want things to get to that point.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

I'm convinced you are trolling/harassing me at this point since you replied to someone else saying you didn't care. Its still the morning I don't see any up, please leave me alone unless you are trying to have a legitimate conversation

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Really? I'm harassing you? For asking you to provide evidence for your claims? Sorry but that's how argument works. Back up your claim: if its as prevalent as you say, you'll have your proof in no time.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

What's the point in doing so if you don't care like you told me a few posts up? I'm not going to sit here and argue with you or give you screenshots if its not going to mater.

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Because I'm not the only person reading this thread, and unfortunately fallacious arguments like "we've all seen it" are too easily believed unless someone challenges them.

You made the claim. Back it up or back down.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Because multiple people have reported them and nothing gets done about the same people still post the same adds everyday. And as many people have said we don't freaking care if people are selling clears we are that people are spamming up PF by posting these adds cross server intentionally under the wrong listings which makes it harder to navigate PF to look for legitimate listings,.

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I see statics doing that all the time aswell - as in: Listing their recruitment-ads under a semi-wrong content. Would you ban those aswell?
Having a PF up is also not excatly spamming - its "having a PF up".

...infact - maybe its the datacenter, but I see way more static and FC-recrutments under "wrong" listings than clear-sells. Maybe thats why I'm bothered so little by that.
Seriously, each time I see such a PF my only thoughts are "Ah, at least I dont have to check this one to see if the DPS-slots allows bards or is limited to nin/monk/drg again"

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

My thing is, lets say, okay its perfectly okay to mislist stuff under the wrong PF listings, now what if everybody starts doing that cause they realize the GMs don't care, surely at that point SE would take action if you had 100s of people advertising their FCs/crafts/clear selling, etc under the roulette listings, I don't know about you but I don't want things to get to that point.

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Theorizing isn't going to get you anywhere.

you need facts....people are going to do stupid things regardless....don't add to the list.

Yes you don't like that...nor don't I...that much is clear.
SE going to do anything about it? Will as you pointed out...they wont until its an actual problem.
Is it a problem right now? Likening to spray painting on ul'dahs aethryte wall "Lulz - buy my stuffs" on the wall..no not really...not yet.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

I'm sure there are certain exceptions to the rule....and it would be a bit too painfully obvious if you jump continents....my context was in the country.

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Google Tunnel Bear, which is a VPN service that hides your IP entirely. If SE ever did attempt to micromanage like this, people could just pay for services that allow them to choose the redirect location. So what, are you going to advocate banning players who originate from New York showing up in Florida? Suppose they can't go on trips anymore.

Put simply, why does it matter? How is a WF group selling content affect you or your individual experiences? Don't like it. Don't participate and just ignore the advertisements.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Google Tunnel Bear, which is a VPN service that hides your IP entirely. If SE ever did attempt to micromanage like this, people could just pay for services that allow them to choose the redirect location.

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And let's not forget this cost would also be passed on to the end-user who buys the clears (as in they'd also have to pay a portion of IRL money to the people they're buying the clear from, as well as gil). All done via Discord and other such services so SE is unable to ban them for it because SE can't tell RMT is going on here. Those that want to sell, will always find a way. Now, if it was enshrined into Her Majesty's Law for example, then we might have a way to start stopping it. But, good luck getting a country to put buyers of clears in video games into prison. You suggest it, the parliament are gonna laugh you out of the building.

Which reminds me. I have been noticing Sales parties requesting for the potential buyer to contact them through Discord lately.

Even with cross-party finder available during 3.5 and throughout the 4.0 patch of Stormblood, it wasn't seen as much or at all.

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

Which reminds me. I have been noticing Sales parties requesting for the potential buyer to contact them through Discord lately.

Even with cross-party finder available during 3.5 and throughout the 4.0 patch of Stormblood, it wasn't seen as much or at all.

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Those tend to involve real money or they're just trying to avoid people who have nothing better to do than try report spamming them.

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Originally Posted by Hestzhyen

What they do is go into the instance you want a clear/loot for, have you die ASAP, clear it as a 7-man team, and if you arrange it beforehand let you have the drop at the end.

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...thats not how they sell Ultimate. They need to 8 man it so they ask buyer's account details to log in on it and play as 8th team member.
In fact, they were always doing it with fresh raids when it couldn't be 7-manned. I know a few content sellers and they told me this. They also pretty sure 90% of their clients are gil buyers but they keep a blind eye on it. Money is money.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Doesn't take a 3 year old to figure this out people.

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Unfortunately it's not solid enough to suspend people, it's obvious if you connect the dots, but connecting the dots is not hard proof, no hard proof no ban.

SE can't start a witch hunt and disregard their own principles with something that doesn't even affect the game as much as you people make it out to be.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

Cross-server pf wasn't a thing back then. Ultimate is already being cleared with 7 people? .

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I'm pretty sure he mentioned ARR Coil, no Ultimate.

So it's confirmed they are selling Ultimate for $1200 real life money and of course they need buyer's account details.

Whoever still thinks they are not advertising RMT through Party Finder is delusional.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

So it's confirmed they are selling Ultimate for $1200 real life money and of course they need buyer's account details.

Whoever still thinks they are not advertising RMT through Party Finder is delusional.

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Whomever is willing to spend that...wait, whomever has that much money to throw around like that, just wow. But anybody willing to pay that much...well, heck, anybody willing to spend any kind of money to complete Ultimate is an idiot. Spending $1200 for it is just insane.

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

Which reminds me. I have been noticing Sales parties requesting for the potential buyer to contact them through Discord lately.

Even with cross-party finder available during 3.5 and throughout the 4.0 patch of Stormblood, it wasn't seen as much or at all.

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Sadly people are catching on that the GMs don't seem to care and are doing this stuff more and more, one day I checked PF and the first 3-5 listings at the top were all clear selling listed under the wrong items. I'm just wondering what it will take for SE to finally take notice and start taking official action.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Sadly people are catching on that the GMs don't seem to care and are doing this stuff more and more, one day I checked PF and the first 3-5 listings at the top were all clear selling listed under the wrong items. I'm just wondering what it will take for SE to finally take notice and start taking official action.

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And I opend the PF yesterday and the first 2 listenings were static recrutments under Shinryu EX - please tell me if thats a problem too.
You also claim that they're under the wrong items - you mentioned expert-roulette and Lakshmi EX before. Have you asked those groups if they would be willing to sell you an expert/Lakshmi run? If they wouldnt, it would be listed under the wrong item, I agree. If they would however... how is that so different from a static recruiting via Shinryu EX when they're looking to do weekly Omega Savage, progress UCoB and farm Shinryu weapons and just happend to pick one of the raids as an example?

And believe me: I get your RMT-angle, but those ads arent RMT-ads. Its not spamming either. Its just: PFs I (and probably you too) dont wanna join, even though we would be intrested in that content. But you know what? Yesterday I was looking at about 15 Shinryu parties - two of those were the mentioned static-things, three were looking for healers, two only had 1-2 people in them, three were "Practice from the start" (cba with that anymore), one had an ilvl of 335 (not there yet) and for some reason two more didnt wanted a paladin for the tankslot (I had to open those PFs and check). That left me with two parties that I actually could and wanted to join.
My point is: There are lots of parties that you have to scroll through and that you cant or dont want to join for some reason. As long as the selling-group would sell you the content they've listed, it becomes just another of those cases if you ask me.

Everything that happens afterwards - is RMT or account sharing involved in some way? - is happening afterwards and they can get punished for that if it comes to that.
Innocent until proven guilty - you want to change the rules, so that you can prove people guilty and for what? One less PF that you have to scroll over...

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

So it's confirmed they are selling Ultimate for $1200 real life money and of course they need buyer's account details.

Whoever still thinks they are not advertising RMT through Party Finder is delusional.

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Let me be clear: I dont believe that there isnt RMT involved - I do believe however that thats already prohibited and should be dealt with using those rules and regulations we already have at hand.

...also... 1200$... wth...

Having played MMORPGs where people drop 800 euro a month to advance, seeing 1200 dollars does not suprise me. SE needs to drop the banhammer swift and hard.

Caught one finally....same guy I think.

*snip*

Pretty weird for people to insist on discord only..etc.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Caught one finally....same guy I think.


Pretty weird for people to insist on discord only..etc.

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you might want to hide the names, but selling ultimate runs really?

hide names? pfft...honestly I don't care....Id rather SE actually look into it anyway. For all I know they could be alts of alts of alts of alts.
It be different if it was a chat convo or something else.

But this...this is different..this is suspicious. No ones able to explain the gil transfer issue...and I seriously doubt these guys have accounts to cover all servers etc etc...and transfers are not as straightforward either.

But yeah...and note its cross world....and that they demand discord only....too many questions...very bad.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

hide names? pfft...honestly I don't care..

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It's because posting images including other character's names on these forums is against the forum rules and is likely to get you banned.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

hide names? pfft...honestly I don't care....Id rather SE actually look into it anyway. For all I know they could be alts of alts of alts of alts.
It be different if it was a chat convo or something else.


But this...this is different..this is suspicious. No ones able to explain the gil transfer issue...and I seriously doubt these guys have accounts to cover all servers etc etc...and transfers are not as straightforward either.

But yeah...and note its cross world....and that they demand discord only....too many questions...very bad.

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Then report them.
And you probably really want to hide the names if you combine them with accusations - you might consider this ironic but the foren-mods dont like naming&shaming and they most likely will rather ban your foren-account than do anything about the people ingame (not their job anyways, thats what the GMs are for after all).

And yes, I agree its suspicious and its raising questions - but non of that is or should be flat out prohibited.
Asking for discord (even if they're asking for that being the only form of communication)? Saw statics doing that, could have very much legit reasons.
Selling content? It has already been established that thats okay.
You may have doubts about how the gil-transfer could happen (and most likely it doesnt... at least not legit), but you have no proof.
What this thread is trying to do is to create that proof by establishing a new "crime" - and I'd be very careful about that because it could hurt legit people in the long run and make setting up PFs more complicated. I dont feel that we actually need (more) regulations for that because that would hurt the normal, average person aswell - the statics recruiting, the person making a mistake by setting up (if wrongful settings are an offence), the person asking to be contacted via discord...
Two days ago I saw a PF advertising crafting services - on Louisoix. I'm on Odin, the whole thing was in cross-server-PF obviously and totally impossible, but you're not talking about those things...
The things that need to be prohibited - RMT, mainly; account sharing, maybe (lets be honest: this is SE covering their ass if your account gets lost because you were stupid enough to share that information) - are already prohibited.

I dont want so many rules and regulations that each time I set up a PF I find myself asking myself "Could I get banned for this?" when its about something that could get abused by content-sellers, but has also a legitimate use (discord info, for example).
If memory doesnt fail me, at the beginning of ARR they did swing the banhammer swift and hard - on omni-crafters who were making a lot of money through legit means. I'm glad they got more careful since then - and specially when it comes to a topic like this. I feel the risk of wrongfully banning someone here is bigger than the "harm" those PFs are causing - the harm being: you seeing a PF you're not intrested in. Just how I see 10 french static-recrutment-PFs each day that I'm not intrested in.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

hide names? pfft...honestly I don't care....Id rather SE actually look into it anyway. For all I know they could be alts of alts of alts of alts.

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Somebody was literally just banned over the weekend for posting screenshots with names. But be my guest if you want to toss that dice. Can't really preach your crusade if you get banned for one thing that will definitely get you permabanned from the forums.

Pictures removed.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

hide names? pfft...honestly I don't care....

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Not caring for rules is something you and those players share in common then.

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Originally Posted by dotsforlife

Not caring for rules is something you and those players share in common then.

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Not reading or paying attention to posts....is something you people really need to be careful about.

The ToS about account sharing is mainly "you lost anything on your account? you did give your log-in information? Dont care about your lost"
You give your account for the WE to your neighbour. Or your neighbour hack your account while you are outside the WE? What the difference? nothing, in both case, SE see the same IP matter. They wont ban every strange IP thing they detect...
Read it the second half about account sharing in the tos... you will see it is clearly "your matter"


Then, anyone already say how to pay 100M gils cross server without moving from one to another yourself
1) Player A on server X gives 100M to a reroll of player B whose main is on server Y. So, B owns 100M on the wrong server now.
2) Player C want to move from server Y to server X but cant take his 75M due to system limitations... He gives 75M to player B (on server Y so) and player B gives him 75M when he arrives on serveur X... 75M player B owns due to the previous sell...
Now... only 25M is on wrong server. All is matter of time,

I dont say "it can be done so all of them do this" but we are on the main matter :
Can you prove clearly that those suspcious fact (only discord + cross server) are due to RMT? It is supicious, but there is no proof.
I go kill your Neighbour and leave the knife in your kitchen... The fact that the knife is in your home is suspicious. Even more when another neighbour says to the police you had many argue with the dead.

SE cant ban just about suspicions. So what to do?
Adding rules to the game, more and more? Not sure the best way...


SE cant do anything? False.
It is their job to avoid RMT shit, and limit spam. How? their job.

For this kind of spam it is quite hard to do anything, the advertise break nothing in the ToS (only what is hidden behind could be a matter with the ToS) so...

No...but they can and will if the account owner makes it an issue.

And trust me when I say this....other companies...only tolerate that for so long before they cut you loose.

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Originally Posted by Aerlana

Can you prove clearly that those suspcious fact (only discord + cross server) are due to RMT? It is supicious, but there is no proof.
I go kill your Neighbour and leave the knife in your kitchen... The fact that the knife is in your home is suspicious. Even more when another neighbour says to the police you had many argue with the dead.

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You...totally just went into left field with this one.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

You...totally just went into left field with this one.

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I suspect English is not the first language on said poster. - So thoughts may not be communicated very clearly....but ill admit even I question it.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

No...but they can and will if the account owner makes it an issue.

And trust me when I say this....other companies...only tolerate that for so long before they cut you loose.

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If a person bought, say, an Ultimate clear, and gave the people they were buying from permission to use their account--and by this I mean giving their username, password, and one-time password if applicable (which will not trigger one of those "you logged in from a different IP" account lockouts)--and then had the audacity to claim other people logged into their account and seek punitive action against them afterwards...

Well SE would probably say they were lying (one-time password included here in this scenario since they would automatically assume it was the account owner logging in), or say "Well, idk what you want us to do; here's a temp password, change your password". SE is not obligated to punish anyone if an account is compromised. Nor are they obligated to reimburse if things went missing.

The inclusion of the clause in the ToS is to cover SE's own butts. They couldn't care less if a player gave their account information to someone else and then turned around to report those people. Aside from the fact that there's no proof and IPs are not enough. I can change my IP by just resetting my router or running on my mobile hotspot, which sometimes puts my general location in the next state over. And like others have said, there is software out there to change your IP and outright hide it/spoof it.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Unfortunately it's not solid enough to suspend people, it's obvious if you connect the dots, but connecting the dots is not hard proof, no hard proof no ban.

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They only need proof to hand out punishments, not to remove or lower the chance of such infractions taking place (see: feast chat and parsing).

Any doubt for people on Aether has been removed by that thread on reddit. At least two players from Gilgamesh have admitted to being involved, and they have been using the cross-server pf to advertise. I could post a few links to show it, but, you know, rules.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

<snip>

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Not sure why you're replying to me - as that's what I've been trying to say...only without the encyolpedia text to go with it (which is pretty damn good)

bottom line is....they don't care what excuse or reasoning you had....its irrelevant. They will listen to you and then stop you in your tracks when you said "I gave out my information"

At that point....it don't matter why...it matters you did and you broke ToS doing it.

The why is irrelevant....yes its a legality thing...but the point is..EVERYONE..does that (in some form shape or fashion). Not just SE.

On a positive note I haven't seen any clear selling on the Ex roulette or Lakshmi Ex listings the past day maybe things are changing.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

On a positive note I haven't seen any clear selling on the Ex roulette or Lakshmi Ex listings the past day maybe things are changing.

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Doubtful. As it stands, a lot of the sellers generally don't pay attention to the forums. Reddit on the other hand...

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Originally Posted by Vidu

And I opend the PF yesterday and the first 2 listenings were static recrutments under Shinryu EX - please tell me if thats a problem too.

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I'm not the person you quoted but I just want to say it's freaking annoying to wade through adverts of any kind when you just want to do a duty. It's not even possible to blacklist some of these because they set the item level to 999 and blacklisting requires joining the group. To be honest I would be surprised if anyone joined statics whose recruiters don't know how to use the PF. Party leaders, if you aren't going to the duty when the group fills then don't select a duty when listing to PF. "Duty: None" is the default choice so there is no excuse.

Wrong way to do it:

https://i.imgur.com/neGdLYb.png

Right way to do it:

https://i.imgur.com/uO4Hdtl.png

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Originally Posted by Reinha

<snip>

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Lol I'm with you on that...I get on peoples cases when they start a hunt party and not put it under "hunts" :D