4.11+ DRK Suggestions/Balance Changes from a "Hardcore" Player

Many people talk about TBN as if it's something you can always break on demand. That's probably true when you use your (10%) ally bubble, as it's something like a 5k barrier.

Your 20% barrier will only break on specific points in a fight, like cleaves. This is one of the reasons why a duration extension is a bad idea. It encourages TBN's use on autos, rather than specifically on big hits.

If the barrier was 20% regardless of target and the duration was fixed at 5s, you could easily make it a dps gain as a reward for knowing the cleave timings of the fight. Right now, you could shield every big hit on your co-tank with it (and it's extremely fun to), but you probably don't want to for potency reasons.

I think TBN probably -should- be encouraged on auto-attacks. The nature of the shield is such that it becomes more effective inversely with the strength of the incoming damage (up until the point where it fails to break), and so that's actually one of its strongest points, except for having a duration shorter than the maximum time between two auto attacks.

If anything, TBN's biggest failure is that it's actually not as strong as it should be against the big hits and tankbusters, usually forcing the use of a secondary cooldown to safely survive (DRK's 3.x toolkit of Foresight, Dark Dance, and Reprisal would actually be tremendously useful in that regard).

Since TBN is a DPS loss, on average, increasing the duration wouldn't encourage further use. It would only make it more forgiving, which I think is fair considering Paladins can use Intervention and Sheltron without losing any DPS.

Increasing the mitigation on the second target would be a fair way to justify increasing the net potency gain on TBN. My only concern with that though, is that it would further tip the scale in favor of off-tanking as a Dark Knight, when if anything they should make main tanking more rewarding.

I feel like one of the main points of tanking is testing your understanding of damage patterns. If you're confident that TBN will break with just autos, it's effectively just infuriate. Also, if you want a tool that focuses on autos, then it needs to be longer duration (i.e. Bulwark, Dark Dance) or perhaps channelled. I don't think TBN is the right tool for this.

What makes TBN interesting is that it solves one of the main problems of tanking design in this game, namely that you generally only have one active tank at a time. So while you end up learning the damage patterns associated with your "parts" very well, the rest of the time you're effectively another melee dps. One way that they've addressed the issue is to keep tanks involved with raid mitigation even if they're not tanking. TBN takes it a step further, in that it doesn't really matter whether you're the active tank at a given moment or not. You can, in theory, mitigate every big hit on yourself and your co-tank and follow up on each with a counter-attack. It's a really cool idea, but it's limited by the fact that the devs have been overly conservative when it comes to the shield strength and Bloodspiller.

I think the reason why TBN needs to be paired is to ensure that you're still following a cooldown rotation. Otherwise, it just becomes an issue of hitting the correct MP threshold before the hit. Of course, that brings us into other issues with how the rest of our cooldowns are designed.

The difference being that Infuriate costs nothing to use. It's just a free 50 Gauge. The Blood you gain when TBN breaks is offset by the 2400 MP you spend to use it. If TBN didn't cost MP, then yeah, we'd have a problem of people trying to break it on auto-attacks for a DPS gain. But as it is, that's not a problem. There's no reason to use outside of busters and periods of high sustained damage.

Again, I'll reiterate that auto attacks hit too hard in these fights to not attempt to TBN whatever is possible, especially if one even dreams of dropping Grit for any reason. Dark Knight has too little in between to mitigate spikes of damage from all angles to not rely on it. To "leave TBN alone" would imply a huge increase in active mitigation tools elsewhere to stay relevant if fights continue to be designed this way.

If my memory is good, in another mmo (WoW I think) there is a tank with very short Cds.
Sounds cool to me: imagine if TBN was a 5s duration Cds like now, but with an short recovery like 10s, with a little cost of mana, like... The half of now.
I think this should fix the problem of the DRK's mitigation, since you can using it more often with a dps boost.
I just saying this like that, without any maths, but just an idea.

As far as I'm aware TBN can mitigate AA damage.
You have to know that the boss will not cast anything for the next 5 seconds and apply it to yourself the second you take auto attack damage.
The window is so tiny but it's already doable (in savage, no grit) so I don't see how extending the duration hurts (It's just lowering the skill ceiling).

Why not leave BS cost as is but increase the potency of DA BS (like DA adds 160/180 pot instead of 140) this way it's a priority over the rest which I feel DRK could use because right now you just dump your DA on whatever.

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Originally Posted by hoax

Why not leave BS cost as is but increase the potency of DA BS (like DA adds 160/180 pot instead of 140) this way it's a priority over the rest which I feel DRK could use because right now you just dump your DA on whatever.

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Not actually a bad idea. It would make TBN an indirect gain by giving you your BS, but need the MP to DA it for the gain.

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Originally Posted by hoax

Why not leave BS cost as is but increase the potency of DA BS (like DA adds 160/180 pot instead of 140) this way it's a priority over the rest which I feel DRK could use because right now you just dump your DA on whatever.

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a really cool buff would be for TBN to proc a free DA when the shield breaks.
at least, it's make a clear gain.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

a really cool buff would be for TBN to proc a free DA when the shield breaks.
at least, it's make a clear gain.

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That's the thing, in my opinion TBN doesn't need a change because TBN isn't the problem. I feel the current problem is the DA dumping.

Changing the DA pot for BS won't affect TBN in any way. It'll change the way you dump your DAs.

It's not an amazing idea, and I love dark mind how it is but... What about changing dark mind's dark arts effect to "Applies to all party members with x" ? Then it's not the same as paladins or warriors, since it's still only magic damage, but at least there's some ability to help your party.

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Originally Posted by Zeggy

It's not an amazing idea, and I love dark mind how it is but... What about changing dark mind's dark arts effect to "Applies to all party members with x" ? Then it's not the same as paladins or warriors, since it's still only magic damage, but at least there's some ability to help your party.

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If we go that route, might as well do a DA aoe version of TBN.
But the general complaint is that we don’t like having dps and mitigation tied to the same resource. We’ll always prioritize dps if possible.
Same reason why WAR don’t use IB anymore.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think the reason why TBN needs to be paired is to ensure that you're still following a cooldown rotation. Otherwise, it just becomes an issue of hitting the correct MP threshold before the hit. Of course, that brings us into other issues with how the rest of our cooldowns are designed.

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The thing is though that there's fairly little mileage to get out of a version of DRK that's just as concerned with having a strict cooldown rotation as the other tanks. If TBN is designed such that it's not sufficient for mitigation on tankbusters and needs to be paired with another cooldown, you might as well strip it out of the game and just buff the standard mitigation toolkit until it's as powerful as a Warrior's - at which point you have two classes trying to do the exact same thing in the exact same way, and one of them is always going to be in the doghouse (and historically speaking, if you're a tank and you're gambling on "Am I going to be better or worse than a Warrior at doing the things that Warriors do?" you're probably walking away disappointed).

I don't think there's a problem with a design where DRK's defensive identity becomes "You can mitigate anything you want, as long as you have the resources to do so", with little to no reliance on traditional cooldowns. But to get to that design, you have to improve their active mitigation to the point where it's sufficient to mitigate basically everything in the game (so long as you can stay on top of your resource management*).


*The issue that's paired with that is, of course, that the same resource is being used for defense and offense. But considering that DRK has two completely distinct resources, there's a pretty obvious solution to that problem staring us all in the face.

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Originally Posted by Crater

*The issue that's paired with that is, of course, that the same resource is being used for defense and offense. But considering that DRK has two completely distinct resources, there's a pretty obvious solution to that problem staring us all in the face.

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MP gives Blood with TBN
Blood gives MP with Quietus

We could somehow generalize that to all MP and Blood expenses.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

If we go that route, might as well do a DA aoe version of TBN.
But the general complaint is that we don’t like having dps and mitigation tied to the same resource. We’ll always prioritize dps if possible.

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But if every shield on a party member gives back 50 Blood, it would be a very nice to refill you Blood Gauge completely after an AoE.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

MP gives Blood with TBN
Blood gives MP with Quietus

We could somehow generalize that to all MP and Blood expenses.

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You can exchange between the two, and in some instances use one to gain the other, but that's not really what I'm talking about.


MP is used to deal damage and to bolster your defenses.
Blood is used only to deal damage.

It would be much easier to fix Dark Knight as a class, both in terms of offensive and defensive capabilities, if one of these resources were used exclusively for offense, and one were used exclusively for defense.

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Originally Posted by Crater

It would be much easier to fix Dark Knight as a class, both in terms of offensive and defensive capabilities, if one of these resources were used exclusively for offense, and one were used exclusively for defense.

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Originally Posted by Crater

*The issue that's paired with that is, of course, that the same resource is being used for defense and offense. But considering that DRK has two completely distinct resources, there's a pretty obvious solution to that problem staring us all in the face.

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https://media.giphy.com/media/g1a84q6RBSMrS/giphy.gif

It's something that I've really come around on lately. Initially I kind of liked the interplay of the two resources, and I still feel like there are a few fun interactions there (for instance, DRK's dungeon playstyle of "MP for TBN (for mitigation) -> Creates Blood you can spend on Quietus (for some of the better tank AoE in the game) -> Restores MP for every target hit -> And now you have enough for several extra ADs (for sustained damage), a DAAD (for damage/healing), or sometimes even a DADP (for burst damage and just a hint of mitigation)" is really cool, and very involved compared to most other AoE rotations, including for actual DPS classes). And I still feel like it's possible to make a version of DRK where the interplay between those resources is actually meaningful, fun, and effective.

But in practice, right now they're both basically doing the same thing, they're barely even doing that same thing in different ways, and the constraints of each system (along with the clunky ways in which they are tied together) are really holding back a lot of design options that should be on the table to fix the class, but just aren't because if you play Six Degrees of Bloodspiller, sooner or later you run into a brick wall where you can't buff Power Slash because every time you do it the servers have to check every player's inventory and it would crash Primal.

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Originally Posted by Crater

It would be much easier to fix Dark Knight as a class, both in terms of offensive and defensive capabilities, if one of these resources were used exclusively for offense, and one were used exclusively for defense.

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This could fix something from a balance standpoint, but would it be interesting gameplay wise ?
I think it would make Blood Gauge feel as bland as the Oath Gauge, since you have no real decision to make on how to spend it (or how you build it).

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

This could fix something from a balance standpoint, but would it be interesting gameplay wise ?
I think it would make Blood Gauge feel as bland as the Oath Gauge, since you have no real decision to make on how to spend it (or how you build it).

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Yes, I think it would be interesting, because once MP (and Dark Arts) are removed from consideration when it comes to your DPS, there's room to build meaningful choices and make interesting gameplay out of DRK's full mitigation suite, and there's room to build a version of DRK that feels powerful compared to the other tanks without just becoming a better version of those tanks.

Similarly, if DRK's DPS became driven entirely by resources that are dedicated to damage, it would be possible to adjust the usage and power of that resource independently, to put DRK on par with the other tanks, without running into concerns that you'd be supercharging or hamstringing its defensive capabilities.


Thinking ambitiously, it's easy to imagine an overhauled version of DRK where TBN becomes essentially their only non-crossclass skill that directly handles mitigation, but with several 'sub-stances' like the 4.x versions of Mage's Ballad/Army's Paeon/Wanderer's Minuet that alter the behavior of the skill, and a Dark Arts modifier that increases the effectiveness. DRK becomes a purely active-mitigation tank that nevertheless has a full set of feature-complete defensive tools that are well-equipped to handle any sort of tanking situation, limited only by their MP pool/generation.

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Originally Posted by Crater

Yes, I think it would be interesting, because once MP (and Dark Arts) are removed from consideration when it comes to your DPS

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If DRK would get some changes, I bet Dark Arts would still be the same, so MP would probably be the damage ressource. Which basically is already how people seems to play DRK. No real meaningful choice there, just spam DA whenever you can, except the C&S priority.

Si it would leave Blood as our mitigation ressource, and a Blood-based-TBN as a poor man's Sheltron/Intervention.

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Originally Posted by Crater

Yes, I think it would be interesting, because once MP (and Dark Arts) are removed from consideration when it comes to your DPS, there's room to build meaningful choices and make interesting gameplay out of DRK's full mitigation suite, and there's room to build a version of DRK that feels powerful compared to the other tanks without just becoming a better version of those tanks.

Similarly, if DRK's DPS became driven entirely by resources that are dedicated to damage, it would be possible to adjust the usage and power of that resource independently, to put DRK on par with the other tanks, without running into concerns that you'd be supercharging or hamstringing its defensive capabilities.
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This may seem strange given my post over in core issues with dark knight thread, but I actually like having to choose between my mitigation and damage. This and using my mana are the only things that feel dark knightish to me on the class, and making our resources based on mana and blood separately would feel less like dark knight and more like paladin. The problem is the reward isn't high enough to justify the risks, the solution is easy enough I think, buffing dark arts and proportionately raising bloodspiller would raise the rewards without having to kill one of the few identities we have, which is risk reward.

The fact that we're this far into Stormblood with no changes is ridiculous.

DRK's need an extra mitigation or a damage debuff.

Sole Survivor needs to do SOMETHING for boss fights, damage taken up or damage done down. It's useless currently.

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Originally Posted by akisya

5. Reprisal - Lower's target damage dealt by 15%. Recast: 90s. Make this a DRK Exclusive Skill, this would remake DRK's identity back to the debuff tank. Remove Reprisal from WAR and PLD, they already have their party-wide HP shield combo.

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No, please, I mainly use WAR and I use that a lot

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

This may seem strange given my post over in core issues with dark knight thread, but I actually like having to choose between my mitigation and damage.

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Knowing how to do this should be the trademark of good tanks, but right now, not choosing damage is almost always the wrong choice.

It stacks with my gripe about the tank stances...overall, mitigation tools are not significant enough on the field, so focusing them in worthless.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Knowing how to do this should be the trademark of good tanks, but right now, not choosing damage is almost always the wrong choice.

It stacks with my gripe about the tank stances...overall, mitigation tools are not significant enough on the field, so focusing them in worthless.

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Yes, but when other tanks can offer both without a dps loss dark knight either needs to offer more of both, but have to actively decide between which to use. But thats just my two cents.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

This may seem strange given my post over in core issues with dark knight thread, but I actually like having to choose between my mitigation and damage. This and using my mana are the only things that feel dark knightish to me on the class, and making our resources based on mana and blood separately would feel less like dark knight and more like paladin. The problem is the reward isn't high enough to justify the risks, the solution is easy enough I think, buffing dark arts and proportionately raising bloodspiller would raise the rewards without having to kill one of the few identities we have, which is risk reward.

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I like the idea in concept, but I just don't think that it works for Dark Knight. If you want to make a system where you choose to spend a single resource on either offense or defense, the "rewards" for doing so are never going to be high enough unless you meet two conditions: 1) If you spend all of your possible resources on offense, you must be the strongest offensive tank, and 2) If you spend all of your possible resources on defense, you must be the strongest defensive tank.

Now you could do that for DRK, and I'd fully advocate for it, but the problem there is: That's literally already what Warrior is. A Warrior who spends all of their BG on offensive skills does more damage than any other tank, and a Warrior who spends all of their BG on defensive skills is more of an unkillable wall than any other tank. I'm personally fine with the idea of DRK just leapfrogging WAR and doing more damage when they focus on damage, and being even tankier than a Defiance WAR when they don't, but that's obviously not really a tenable situation long-term.

In addition to that, it's actually the reverse of what DRK was in Heavensward, which is something that I really appreciated about DRK in 3.x. While 3.x WAR actually sacrificed a lot of defensive ability to put out maximum damage - In addition to spending all their stacks on Fell Cleaves, remember that they'd also need to blow Raw Intuition and/or Vengeance every Berserk to get a triple Cleave, and would want to blow the other cooldown elsewhere for more non-Berserk Cleaves - 3.x DRK was the opposite: DRK had access to every single bit of their defensive kit (other than Grit, obviously) while doing their maximum damage. Even spending a Dark Arts on DADM couldn't be considered a straight potency loss, because the relationship between MP and potency wasn't nearly as simplistic and direct as it is in 4.x.

The reason that people ran DRK/WAR instead of WAR/WAR in 3.x wasn't just for the sake of Limit Break generation. WAR actually just could not, despite its general overpoweredness, match or exceed the balance between DPS output and tankiness that DRK generally brought to the table (with a handful of very specific exceptions where WAR/WAR made sense).

Ideally, I think that's where I'd like to see DRK go. Equal to WAR in total DPS, while being lower than WAR in burst damage, and substantially tankier than a pure-Deliverance Warrior, without having to trade DPS for that mitigation. I think the best way to get there would be to just decouple DRK's damage and mitigation, which is easy to do without either of those things becoming boring or oversimplified, because of the nature of DRK's dual-resource job mechanics, and the use of 'modifier' skills like Dark Arts (figure something like Dark Arts for MP, Blood Arts for Blood).

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Yes, but when other tanks can offer both without a dps loss dark knight either needs to offer more of both, but have to actively decide between which to use. But thats just my two cents.

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Sure, it would be far more interesting gameplay wise. They only need to make it more rewarding.

The easiest way to make people want to use TBN more is to increase the potency on BloodSpiller.
Or, like talked above, having DA+TBN apply to all members, and every shield that breaks give back Blood.