1. plagiarizing for ideas in the game industry doesn't exist, it's called integration it's how the industry evolves, every game does it, they take cool thing from other games and make it their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mofafafa
2. I prefer feast without chat, it was a toxic shitfest just like leagues old elo hell.
3. Frontlines still has chat.
4. PvP has more players because for people who weren't hardcore players? new PvP is fun and 100x better than old PvP.
5. even with Raubahn EX, people queued for PvP because it gave better EXP, not 'cause of the stop gap, even then, instances were dead from everyone spamming said raubahn instance.
I miss the old PvP.
Printable View
-
11-15-2017, 02:15 PMblindfoldedkaos
-
11-15-2017, 02:18 PMMofafafaI'll admit that the button was bloat for PvP.Quote:
Originally Posted by blindfoldedkaos
At first I wasn't attracted to play the game because of amount of buttons, but the Feast Mount reward attracted me, and i decided to try PvP. It was fine for me, most likely because I was a noob in PvE back then and I was fairly a fresh player.
IMO the level 30 have their own pros and cons..
Advantage:
1) you can play at different Data Center at low level
2) You can play different class at low level
Disadvantage:
1) Alt taking spots for Ranking system
2) Players creating Alt to troll in ranked game, win tradings
The new level 70 skills would make every class so balanced, especially the 3 class that's fairly weak for Heavenswards which are SCH, DRK, NIN
And pre-SB, the PvP was the one that probably only mode that's still going and providing most revenue towards the game during creator till SB. imho -
11-15-2017, 02:20 PMblindfoldedkaos"People in the feast are toxic" - We will remove chat in feast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravton
"4 hotbars for all the PvE and PvP actions" - We will reduce them.
"Healing is hard" - Said no one ever.
"Pvp is still to hard, is it ok if I cheat" - We will help you by denying any kind of evidence submission, mainly based on videos that are badly edited.
"I still can't win" - We will add mechs, turrets, and npcs < No, they needed a new game mode, so they added a MOBA.
"I keep dying" - We will start providing echo bonuses < Wait what shit are you smoking?
"Pvp is boring" - Play something else or provide constructive criticism and quit acting like a child, 'this sucks' doesn't help improve shit. -
11-15-2017, 02:25 PMblindfoldedkaosThe bloat was really bad, with SB it would of gotten worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mofafafa
The problem with pre-SB PvP was the majority of players found it no fun at all, since you had to gear a whole build, and most of the time, a whole set of gear dedicated to PvP, now people can just 'pick up and play' PvP and not worry as much.
Disadvantage number 3 with level 30's:
Based on the old system, level 30's would of been destroyed by level 70's with better skills and better stats.
Oh and win trading has been a thing since season 3, at least on primal. -
11-15-2017, 02:29 PMMofafafaQuote:
Originally Posted by blindfoldedkaos
1) Yes, you're correct. Just like every cellphone in this current era. But my debate is that, why SE decided to do this? When LoL have that system already, and why play ff14 when you can play LoL in every aspect way better than ff14 itself. We (I) as a consumer wanted a fresh content.
2) You're correct, every PvP game will have toxic players like every game. But why don't just use the *Blacklist* and mute them instead of punish everyone??? then implement quick chat which result in much more obnoxious sound and even more toxic indirect message
3) Frontline is still a healthy game mode, because there isn't any ranking system. But... there is still sign of toxicity in there, and during GARO, more non-PvP frequent players (those player that doesn't pvp) has participated, and they actually contributed to the toxicity in frontline chat.
4) I respect that, different players have different opinion on their favourite.
5) Yes, and Yes.
ah and yes, i 4gt to mention that, back in heavensward, when lvl 60 is the requirement to partake any PvP.
That was my motivation to level up every single class to level 60 and play those classes -
11-15-2017, 02:37 PMblindfoldedkaos1. It is fresh system for those who don't play league, and why would you want to play league anyway? when you can just play FF?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mofafafa
2. Blacklist only has room for 200 people and pretty much at the time 70% of the feast was bad when it came to chat, i was there, i still get tells from people out of feast matches from the truely toxic.
3. I agree that frontlines can be toxic sometimes, but it's usually rare, and most of the time the toxic one gets ignored/kicked/blocked, it's 1 toxic/angry person in a sea of like 24, and not like 3 toxic people targeting 1 person.
4. that is true. -thumbs up-
5. +1 internet. -
11-15-2017, 02:39 PMThirdChild_ZKIWe understand the removal of stats was largely to facilitate allowing level 30s and up to participate. I don't think many of us hold issue with that. As for the hotbar bloat, allow me to demonstrate again. I played the "complicated" Heavensward MCH and ran 3 hotbars; my 2 standard PvE ones, and one purely for PvP skills. I also play on PS4. . .Quote:
Originally Posted by blindfoldedkaos
Hotbar 1:
http://i64.tinypic.com/iykfgn.jpg
Safe to say as this was my primary hotbar, I used everything pictured here, and quite frequently.
Hotbar 2:
http://i65.tinypic.com/2hz7akh.jpg
Please note immediately the redundant placements of Hot Shot, Split Shot, and Clean Shot and consider those 3 slots that could be open for other things. I almost never had any need for Grenado Shot, Spread Shot, Promotion, or Turret Retrieval, so that's 4 more slots I could hot swap skills on, but let's leave them for now and ignore that it was possible to have PvP-specific settings that only became active in PvP, much like the system now. The 1 and X markers were optional and not really necessary, but they were heavily used. They stay. Let's move on to the PvP hotbar. . .
Hotbar 3 (PvP Specific):
http://i68.tinypic.com/14vid8i.jpg
For the sake of ease, I made a picture that breaks this down:
http://i67.tinypic.com/ayt0jr.jpg
Now, when you factor in the redundancies on Hotbar 2, as well as the things I didn't use or need in PvP, those 6 PvP specific skills easily could've been worked into Hotbar 2. THEN there was the PvP-specific settings if I wanted to use them.
And without redundancies, I had room to spare on melee jobs with just 2 hotbars, believe it or not. So please, tell me again where the bloat was? Cause I had no trouble with this mess of a setup at all, and I played the "complicated" Heavensward MCH.
Also consider the amount of skills removed in Stormblood vs the ones gained. . . I can still run 2 PvE hotbars on all the jobs I play, hence "bloat" wouldn't have been an issue anyways. So where's the issue? -
11-15-2017, 02:48 PMblindfoldedkaosWell if you compare it to say a non-controller hotbar?Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
You have 16 slots a hotbar and a no-controller hotbar has only 12 slots per hotbar.
giving you 12 extra slots, that's equal to a 4th hotbar on PC.
Given the fact you double up on some skills for quick access, lets say for argument sake, 6 skills, that's half a hotbar 'saved'
I had my hotbar setup way back in HW for machinist as well, i shaved some pvp skills that were worthless to me off the bar and i was still hurting for room with 3 hotbars on top of all the PvE skills.
and by hurting, i mean i had no room left in my 3 main hotbars. -
11-15-2017, 02:56 PMMofafafal0l how do you add picture
This is my Heavensward mch hotbar and everything else.
Not including turret retrival as it was useless anyway
https://imgur.com/a/DTsLG
https://imgur.com/a/DTsLG
https://imgur.com/a/DTsLG -
11-15-2017, 02:57 PMThirdChild_ZKI
I'm gonna make a whole separate post to address a few things. . .
So it needs to be asked first; is Primal data center really THAT bad? Because my experience was far less toxic on Aether. It's also important to ask if you played well and whether or not you added to the toxicity? I played well, not always, but well enough that people were often happy to see me on their team and I was civil to teammates, even if we lost. Sure, I ran into some bad apples too, but rather than fire back, I just pushed myself to outplay them. That was far more satisfying and effective in shutting people up.Quote:
Originally Posted by blindfoldedkaos
Based on what? Your opinion? How is the system better now? The modes didn't change. Most jobs are unable to do over half what they once could (thus versatility in the moment is quite different now). Vital tools like sprint and cc abilities (which ALL jobs had) are no longer universal. And it goes without saying the overall level of skill among the active PvPers has taken a dive with both the disgust/departure of many veteran players, and the general lack of knowledge or strategy among many new players. So I would like solid reason why the new system is better, and not simply opinion. What makes "new" PvP so much fun and so much better than the old PvP?Quote:
Originally Posted by blindfoldedkaos
-
11-15-2017, 02:57 PMblindfoldedkaosthat's still alot! :OQuote:
Originally Posted by Mofafafa
-
11-15-2017, 03:11 PMThirdChild_ZKINot a bad setup actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mofafafa
If I envy anything, it's that you have everything right there in front of you where I had to cycle hotbars. Muscle memory really went a long way there, so I'd call that even to a degree, yet still fail to see where issues of lacking hotbar space arose. And I had redundancies and just didn't remove skills I knew I didn't use. Technically, I didn't use Spread Shot period (and if I had the luxury of Grenado Shot now instead, I still wouldn't), so that could be one extra slot. Wildfire and Rapid Fire shared a macro, Split Shot and Heartbreak shared one too, and with all but no impact to my ability to play MCH well.
Skills Removed:
Hawk's Eye
Raging Strikes
Blood for Blood (side note: I had these first 3 all on one macro, in the order I wanted them to be used, so that was space saved)
Promotion
Rend Mind
Grenado Shot
Lead Shot
Head Graze
Suppressive Fire
Foot Graze
Skills Gained:
Cooldown
Barrel Stabilizer
Rook Overdrive
Flamethrower
(Not counting Heated Shots as they replace the skill in the slot already)
You can see there was plenty of room to spare between what was lost vs what was gained. We'd have been just fine without the 9 button standard. -
11-15-2017, 03:14 PMblindfoldedkaosWhen you get screamed at by a dps player for not healing them as they run far away from you and around the corner while your busy healing the rest of the team? it was pretty toxic. People on primal are quite selfish and quick to place the blame on others, like if they die, it's ether the dps and/or the healers fault they died. even if they are the one who died ran off lone wolf into the enemy spawn.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
Based on not my own opinion, but from the giant linkshells and FC's on Lamia, before on Lamia, PvP was equivalent to say people sinning, you may feel good for doing pvp, but to the general public, no-one wanted anything to do with you, they hated it with a huge passion. not to mention frontline queues were 50+ minutes, even after garo was added, before garo? pretty much non existent save the daily reset, the feast? only a handful played, they scared off the rest by being toxic and insulting you, from the way you look, to not being the meta.
As expected really, when you add a large pool of unexperienced people to something that only a smaller group specialized in, the average skill level will take a dive.
The new system, as i said earlier can be seen as 'pick up and play' Stats are auto set,
Moves are condensed so there's less buttons and less confusion for those newer to pvp or the job in pvp.
also the level requirement being reduced and the introduction of exp gave people a chance to experiment with newer jobs they hadn't leveled past 30, do pvp, and get exp all at the same time
(thou we all hate bots)
Not to mention for some, they had to feel like they had to have two builds for every job pre-SB if they did pvp for stat/gear reasons, now they don't. -
11-15-2017, 03:49 PMThirdChild_ZKI
First, that's his fault for line-of-sighting the healer. Plain and simple. They can be mad all they want, they screwed up and paid for it, and it's not on you.
Second, I'm well aware of the cold reaction people have given PvP and PvPers in this game. I could practically hear the switch turning off in people's heads if I mentioned PvP, or they'd spout the same crap they heard from others in an attempt to be snarky, yet had no experience to back it up. Word of mouth spread forever ago about PvP, and rather than try it for themselves, people just picked it up and ran with it, lest they be treated as coldly too. Peer pressure at its finest. There are linkshells I no longer speak in, or have left due to that same kind of ignorance. I'm totally still willing to help members of it if they need help in PvE, but I wouldn't for a moment pretend that double standard doesn't exist.
Yes, queues were long before Garo. Those of us who loved it enough simply put up with it, much like DPS players understand their queue times are prone to be longer naturally. Garo didn't fix queues, lifting GC restrictions in the form of Frontline Freelancer - like the community asked and begged for for 3 years did. And they're STILL good as a result. This is largely in part to the ease of matchmaking for the algorithm. Instead of having to try and balance out 56 Mael, 10 Adders and 6 Flames, if it has 72, there's a match.
Even if the jobs are meant to pic "pick up and play" the modes are not. Most new people have never SEEN Secure or Seize, and while Shatter's basic formula is a mix of the two, how Shatter is played will do them no good in either of those modes. And they barely manage Shatter all that well. People rushing to the ice alone when it's teeming with enemies and wondering why they died, people jumping off cliffs to reach the ice when there are enemies waiting below, people IGNORING cliff jumpers and the free points they just dropped right in their laps, then wondering why they lost? I'll throw them a bone: SE has done little to nothing to even TRY and teach players how PvP modes work beyond the basics, and thanks to the bad rep it gets from repeated misconceptions, people don't even know where to seek out the information that's been made available to them by the players themselves.
And lastly, as far as gearing goes, I'm sure we've heard people complain about all the vertical progression with gear in this game before. We've also heard outdated complaints about being outgeared in PvP - something that hasn't been an issue since Frontlines arrived with item level syncing. Now here's the real kicker: As far as horizontal progression might go, guess where old gear found highly effective use again? Sure, I had my PvE and PvP gearsets. By the end of Heavensward, I was full 270 in PvE gear, and my PvP set? My old Lore gear and weapon. A few Gordias/Proto Gordias pieces. A Fending earring for a little more HP. None of which was hard to get if I didn't already have it. Again though, a failure to learn or follow through resulted in those 8-9K DPS/healers that could be one shot by melee LB. And while again, the change was largely to facilitate lower level players getting started, they just as easily could've implemented PvP "starter" gear with comparable stats that were ONLY active in PvP instances. Perhaps though it was simply easier to go the glam-only route, and while I don't mind that, I do still consider it a step back. -
11-15-2017, 04:27 PMblindfoldedkaos
the thing about the shatterer being the main instance? once again plays into what people know/heard, on primal the only frontlines match that people manually queue for is shatter, it's quick, easy, and a fast queue. (which becomes a round robin that the fact everyone is doing it, it keeps the wheel turning)
People take time to learn things, always have always will, no one can be expected to join something and know exactly how to play the mode correctly, nor are they likely to look up guides and rather learn through experiences.
Having it glam only route not only simplifies their spagetti code, it also opens up the fact they can keep dumping glamor into the wolves den and not worry about people complaining about the I-level or the level needed to wear that glamor, and thus gets people who want the glamor into PvP.
The whole situation is give and take, they give a large influx of new blood, but they remove what some vets loved.
It's almost akin to the 1.0 vs 2.0 argument where people want/miss 1.0 because it's what they know, rather than what's changed, for better or worse. -
11-15-2017, 08:08 PMThirdChild_ZKI
5 months, 2 personally written guides, 2 small video guides, and plenty of on the spot advice, and people are still dropping off cliffs to rush to the ice, ignoring battle highs/fevers, ignoring half-dead enemies for ice while they still attack it too, MCHs still fully loading their guns before battle, and still not getting off their mounts when in range of the enemy. . . there's taking time to learn, and failing to learn, and we're dealing with the latter entirely too much.
"People only queue for Shatter because people only queue for Shatter." With a little effort o the community's part, the same could be said for any mode.
And I have to ask where's the give in this give and take? It's really not a matter of "we added this, but removed this and we feel it's an even trade for players". Veteran PvPers were quite blindsided by the sweeping changes. No one asked for a 9 button standard. MCHs didn't ask to lose all their oGCDs or their burst, and I'm sure tanks didn't want to be less tanky. So what exactly was given? I'm well aware of what was taken. -
11-15-2017, 08:42 PMblindfoldedkaos
what was given? a influx of new blood, which on places like primal was needed since frontlines barely got a match of 8 people per team, and now has full matches of 24 per team.
-
11-15-2017, 09:08 PMThirdChild_ZKI
So, why was a complete overhaul of a working and well established (but not perfect) PvP system necessary for a slightly worse one and "new blood"? I fail to see how new players, which were entirely possible to get before (and we did thanks to 3.5/Freelancer queues/Garo) is somehow an example of give and take?
-
11-16-2017, 03:18 AMWintersandmanQuote:
Originally Posted by blindfoldedkaos
Quote:
Originally Posted by blindfoldedkaos
I am going to have to say these statements are full of crock. I play on Primal and never encountered this. Your queues couldn't have been 50 minutes plus after Garo as I had instant queues and we are on the same data center. The new system is actually back to worse queues than during Garo and 3.5. -
11-16-2017, 04:00 AMDivinemightsHe is probably talking about that discord.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
-
11-16-2017, 06:01 PMMofafafa
so regarding SE decision to release season 5 despite no adjustment being made.
https://jp.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...cb6896ff0e4bf7
Season 6 is here. Honestly, no comment. -
11-16-2017, 06:47 PMGospelGood lord that is going to be a short season. Like that's only about a month long? Guess it's back to the grind stone on Tuesday? I Kind of wanted to enjoy the frontlines as a break from it but aw well. See you guys back in the den. :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mofafafa
-
11-17-2017, 03:37 AMWintersandmanI am curious which Discord you are referring to. I have been apart of two total and both were fun loving people. I run my own PvP LS and Discord and all we do is troll bases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemights
-
11-18-2017, 12:38 AMAraxesIm starting to loose all hope for FFXIV PvP..Quote:
Originally Posted by Gospel
-
11-18-2017, 02:08 AMThirdChild_ZKIoh, Rival Wings is a separate PvP mode from Frontlines. You can see it on the PvP Profile right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gospel
And yeah, we've never been crazy about the next season starting immediately, and almost always beside other content that people will want to do as well. But I suppose that's a way to maintain the degree of urgency for players to play early in the season and rank up.
I'll only be playing to Bronze this coming season, just to get the title, then be done with S6 otherwise. Plus I feel like it'll be cut short in order to facilitate the return of Light Party Feast and whatever official registration system they're gonna implement in 4.2.
Worst case scenario, it's just another questionable change they've made. -
11-19-2017, 04:49 AMSuperZayI don't think old model would work with SB skill additions. Take BLM for example, it'd Sleep and Tripplecast Fire IVs and Foul (which is 650 potency iirc), even if they'd nerfed potencies in PvP how's that supposed to be healable. Or a warrior with six Fell Cleaves spam. Or Kaiten + Midare which would take off as much HP as LB. All matches would be one-shot fests.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
They HAD to make a new system for SB. -
11-19-2017, 05:18 AMThirdChild_ZKI
You're thinking of the HP values we currently have vs the skills and how they work at 70. We'd obviously have higher HP values, and the usual item level sync would be in place, which effectively drops the high damage seen currently at even i320 and above.
As for burst damage? Healers could already deal with most of that (with the exception of BRD burst, which is still possible, but not a full HP kill). I survived double Fell Cleaves in Heavensward, even without mitigation. Fire 4 was always potent, even if it didn't crit, but that's why you never let a BLM freecast.. Kaiten Midare? Before, another SAM/DRG/MNK could stun that. They can't now. They can't at all.
Adjustments were needed. A complete scrapping of a system that worked and had its own checks and balances was not. -
11-19-2017, 11:28 PMMofafafa
Easy lol, just put penalty on TripleCast or the warrior thingy like good old blood for blood penalty
either receive more dmg or 50% dmg output reduction like swiftcast -
11-20-2017, 03:32 AMDivinemightsBlizzard did that, and HP amount went through the the roof and still didn't address the issue some class can burst down other class with in few seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
They also tried stats squash once. Did it help? No, it didn't, as long as PvP tied to PvE progression, you simply can not balance the game. -
11-20-2017, 06:06 AMHyrist
Going to be blunt. I don't miss the old system at all. I think the new one has vastly more potential, and needs to be further developed.
Let me be clear here, what I support is an isolated system of skills developed and balanced purely for PvP play. The old way relied on PvE mechanics that did not work well for balancing in PvP.
I will say is that we can handle a few more complex playstyles when it comes to PvP, or at the very least add more depth to the current playstyle. Simple is a good foundation, but allowing interplay between simple to grasp and hard to master is what's needed here, IMO.
But I do not want to go back to the old system, it wasn't fun, and it pushed a lot of people away. -
11-20-2017, 07:58 AMThirdChild_ZKI
While it wasn't perfect, there was balance. Healers didn't do much damage wise, but had cc abilities like anyone else to defend themselves with. Now? Healers are DPS that can outheal any incoming damage from a single enemy, especially if that enemy has no cc to speak of. Tanks aren't tanky now. . . They just aren't. And as for "wasn't fun", tell that to the melees who aren't Ninjas currently.
I won't contest that what we have now is a foundation, and there are some good new ideas, but they scrapped a system that had reached a pretty damn solid state for. . . this. What we lost is hardly proportionate to what we gained. If they have plans to grow it, they might want to be a bit more proactive about it. Because it says a lot when the community that supported "bad" PvP in a game where the majority of the community shuns and avoids it, is suddenly alienated and dislikes what's supposed to be a "good" change. -
11-20-2017, 02:07 PMRedHerbThis is something I like to point out to people. The new abilities wouldn't really work with PVP. The system they made is a good BASIS, but there needs to be some serious growth or pvp is donezo. We need more abilities so that bots can't play it efficiently, at the very least.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperZay
-
11-21-2017, 02:56 AMWintersandmanThis doesn't make any sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Even with item level sync you never had that issue. Fire IV's could crit for 12K in HW but they never did in PvP due to item level sync.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHerb
-
11-23-2017, 09:24 AMAraxesThere were skillchanges wich only applied while in PvP before. Dont know whats the Problem here. Maybe its personal preference but i liked it to have a ton of skills to choose from. I was able to adjust every job to my playstyle and preference, now im getting the Same tasteless Soup as everyone. And please dont come with those 3% or 5% Damage dealt or more HP buttons you now have. Most people know its just here to make it look like our choices matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperZay
-
11-24-2017, 09:11 PMJimBond007
Old PVP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "what the heck is that pvp 4.0"
The old pvp it was a challenge to get 14-15 kills, no death...
Now, with "what the heck is that pvp 4.0", getting 15 kills it's so easy. I often kill a Battle High player by myself (no BH or BF) because I am more experienced than pve players.
PvE players thought they are good because they killed 4-5 kills in a row, but inf act, they can't survive more than 10 seconds. -
11-25-2017, 02:27 AMSynestraI still kinda wanted that we could keep all previous abilities but all of them would get this new pvp treatment, same tools for both pve and pvp but with different effects and potencies. I still hope this is what eventually will happen but it seems SE moved towards heavy teamplay instead players being able to solo carry so i doubt this will happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
-
11-25-2017, 03:02 AMAkorWell we still might get something like that for 5.0. And i would not mind if they steal some ideas from Aion how to build UI, skill system for PvP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synestra
-
11-25-2017, 03:05 AMMozerlam
I wish they'd take away EXP for the new mode, I'm finding it lots of fun but the amount of twonks we have to play with because they're too cowardly to level dungeons as a tank is highly annoying.
-
11-25-2017, 03:42 AMThirdChild_ZKIWhat's sad is that we totally had that before, but people claimed it was too hard to learn, had "too many buttons", and generally didn't try it besides (which makes me question where that feedback even came from). And while sure a person playing their job to the absolute best could possibly solo carry - which I don't see a problem with. High skill should be rewarded like that - team play was still very much necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synestra
As I've said before, I'd love to see SE pull a 4.0 BRD with PvP (that is, rolling back the most hated changes and keeping the good, while still managing to improve it further), but if that's the case, we'd be waiting til 5.0 while they double down on this system. I can play and still enjoy myself, but knowing what it was like before, and how easy it actually was to learn if you tried, what it was and what was good about it before is going to be a creeping thought more often than not. -
11-25-2017, 04:15 AMSynestraYeah i still get emotional when i watch HW WAR pvp clips on youtube, if you compare HW WAR and SB WAR then you will be shocked and i assume this goes for all jobs. Also i really don't remember that much fuss about "too many buttons" at least here in forums, sure there was some but it wasn't that huge to warrant these recent rather radical changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
Maybe it was bigger in JP forums?