The BLM down period has been going on for nearly two years, since 3.2. So forgive us if we don't just wait around and say "It'll be fine" while SE continues to play buff-ranged leapfrog.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin
Black Mage
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10-08-2017, 07:26 AMnugglets
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10-08-2017, 07:59 AMPrismaticDaybreakI want to point out how important this is though. I hate to reference other games when it comes to talking about content since each game is different, but a really good example of how much better balance (and to a further extent the community) is about higher tier endgame content is the distinct lack of gatekeeping in this game. You can still raid pretty much as whatever you'd like in this game as long as you can perform your role well. Most of the DPS is within reasonable distance from each other based on their capabilities (current argument about BLM damage notwithstanding). Now compare this to raiding in GW2, the sheer amount of gatekeeping done by the raiding community in that game is what seriously hampers it as far as content goes. And the raids themselves aren't particularly different from FFXIV in that any reasonable build for damage can clear the encounter although the disparities between damage for some of the more damage oriented builds is quite large considering the additional party utility they can bring. The problem there is that the raiding community there is so endlessly focused on keeping the meta based on benchmark tests done in a vacuum by a single guild whereas here we have FFlogs but for the most part it doesn't completely exclude a particular class.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin
I don't want to be that guy that says "Well it's worse elsewhere." But realistically it's not that bad here, I understand BLM could use some buffs but at least the community here is smart enough to consider them still existing in higher tier content. -
10-08-2017, 08:28 AMzuzu-bqYoshida hilsemf said BLMs will have extra difficulty on new content. And we don't bring anything to compensate as we stated in this whole thread. And yeah I play BLM because I like it. But it's not like people want me as BLM in their parties. This isn't a solo game after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin
In the end the real reason for most of the BLM players and people that like to play BLM in general to not play BLM it's because the job is so weak and brings nothing to the party that no one will have you to play with them if you come as BLM. -
10-08-2017, 09:36 AMKabooaYeah, see, that's the problem. I -would- bring the Black Mage because I -am- the Black Mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin
It's everyone else I have to convince. -
10-08-2017, 10:35 PMAlexalibur
Yeah. RDM is just much more attractive in comparison to BLM. Not longer than yesterday I was told to fight Susano as RDM instead of BLM because the former is simply much more beneficial to the party and BLM, and a lot more welcoming to learning/progression parties. I love BLM, I think it's a great job in a good place, but the trend of being told to switch is not fun.
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10-09-2017, 01:53 AMzuzu-bq
Despite RDM being more wanted, unless you're expecting deaths or is going to a new fight and if you like and play both go BLM. They can beat RDM's embolden buff to party damage with their pure output. Which shows raw damage jobs can work. We just don't do enough to compete with rangeds while they all benefit massively on Disembowel. Actually, Disembowel alone is the source of most of the game's balance issues.
Also, if the trend is constantly being told to not play a certain job. You should reflect and realize that job is not fine or in a good place either. -
10-09-2017, 03:21 AMAlexalibur
Embolden is not exactly what I was talking about. Mostly it was the Verraise that simply puts BLM at a disadvantage when learning, therefore making it harder to learn/progress for the party without one, and harder to practice as a BLM because you have to fight and see the best times to move and burst. Not asking for another raise on BLM or a raise be removed from RDM, just had to point out a problem I have with the caster comparison.
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10-09-2017, 06:00 PMLelila38
Giving this a bump!
We need to stay vocal if we ever want our issues to be heard. -
10-09-2017, 07:31 PMVenur
SE created a game with a role named utility without creating room for it in group. So they ended taking the DPS spot. Basicaly this game meta is:
Tank,Healer and utility.
As long as this game will keep the 4players group and 10 players raid mentality it wont change much I fear.
For balance sake it would be sad for utility class if they would both deal less dps and not enough utility to make for it.
So we are stock with pure DPS like SAM and BM beeing laging behind since they are all about DPS.
Dungeon groups should be 6 players ( at very least 5 ).
Raid should be 14ppl or more (very least 12).
Then FF XIV would be in a more healthy place for none tank/healer players. -
10-09-2017, 09:23 PMNeelayeah I can feel you - but the difference is I won't give a shit...Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexalibur
never was a friend of paternalism. if i join a random grp for either farm or raid I join as my favorite cls or the cls im in the mood for - if anyone starts do "organize" me im out as fast as I can run. cls lockouts or (wannabe-) advices are just stupid.
anybody ever heard of a dd who argued for a certain off-heal or off-tank cls in a random grp? no? why should I switch my dd cls than? just because someone I don't know and probably will never see again wants to save some secs on a random run? no way... -
10-09-2017, 09:59 PMGalvuuI play almost exclusively Bard for progression and let me tell you- it would've been way harder to clear O4S the first few times with Black Mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neela
It's not even close. The Minuet Troubadour for the Almagest right after Omega, the Paeon Troubadour for Neverwhere at 6 stacks and the refreshes+raid dps increases are incredibly clutch.
Someone got hit by emptiness before Light and Darkness? Have a Palisade and he'll live. Scholar is gonna deploy Adlo for an Almagest and something happened and we're not topped off? Let me Mine the Warrior. Someone with weakness for meteors? I'm at 5k MP, let me Foe real quick.
I have an unending love for Black Mage, but realistically I know I'm setting us all back if I play it most of the time, and I can't do it. I can't drag 7 people I consider my friends into failure for two more weeks because of the fact I love Black Mage.
And that feels bad (especially because I hate the swingy, rng nature of Bard). I can't just "not give a shit" about the friends I play with :/ -
10-09-2017, 10:30 PMNeela
thats why I said "random grps" - if you play with a static or friends communication about a setup is just natural. but even there everybody should always play the class he/she enjoys the most and not what any "world firsts" grp set up as meta. you won't get used to your Blm if you take the easy way shifting to a no brainer cls. How so ever its kinda ironic that Blms seems to be near the next "lockout" and Smns are gaining there comeback... strange world - after everybody said Blm is the 2nd best DD after Sam for sure... ^^'
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10-09-2017, 10:44 PMpopotaro
I just hope BLM gets some buffs at some point in time. BLM is BAE.
I mean, if even Yoshida recognized that BLM are gonna have a hard time with the upcoming content, maybe we can hope to get something soon.. :( -
10-10-2017, 12:08 AMNeelawhat do you want them to do exactly? RDM is mobile by his dualcasts, Smn by aetherskills, dots & egi - but what do u expect SE to do with BLM? There aren't that much possibilities to buff the Blm aside in turning up his raw power... if you make him kinda mobile how would you do that?... its not that he would lockout both of the other caster (again...). : /Quote:
Originally Posted by popotaro
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10-10-2017, 12:14 AMpopotarome want MOAR RAW POWER! Some already explained the reason why better than I would.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neela
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10-10-2017, 01:43 AMLlugen
Everyone needs to stop using the excuses "it can clear the content" and "the majority does fine" and "the meta doesn't matter" in this thread immediately.
These excuses might be true, but it does not change the issue that SE's logic of "raw damage is the class's utility" is not only of poor quality (parties will always favor getting utility over a class that is selfish), but just plain WRONG when you consider that a summoner can do MORE raw damage AND has more utility.
There is no argument to this. Classes are to be balanced at their maximum potential, not "average player skill." -
10-10-2017, 01:50 AMSylvain
Scath could get a rework with an added effect.
"increase the damage of your next fire or ice spell by 50% and increase AF/UI duratio' by 6sec"
This would garantee BLM some dps while moving without actually changing the rotation.
It would also raise the dps floor by making AF easier to keep up when u move.
Also, while this would be more qol change, I would love if SE could fuse the two ley line skills as well as fIV and iceIV -
10-10-2017, 01:56 AMLlugen
I wrote a thread a while back of proposed changes that would be more intricate than flat potency increases, here are some of the highlights:
convert changed to "indulge", 60 second recast, no HP reduction
thundercloud is additive to the current dot up to 60 seconds rather than refreshes timer
thundercloud/firestarter procs have 30 second duration to match SMN/RDM's proc duration
Thunder III timer increased to 27 or even 30 seconds and Thunder increased to 24
Umbral hearts give +5% damage on the spell that uses the heart
Fire used with an umbral heart is instant cast guaranteed, or guarantees a firestarter proc
reduce aetherial manipulation recast to 15s
Some other interesting suggestions to consider:
give BLM no MP 180s recast raise off-gcd (shut up about the lore, it's the only DoM class that doesn't have a raise, and that's shitty)
give BLM 180s recast skill that expands ley lines and lets it be used by the whole party (again, raw damage will never ever be stronger than party utility)
allow option to firestart Fire IV or Fire III, alternatively, any time a firestarter III is used, the next fire IV costs zero MP and is instant cast
Thundercloud proc adds 5 seconds to the Polyglot timer -
10-10-2017, 02:18 AMzuzu-bq
Yeah, it's not fun to be a raw damage job while other jobs can just do more than you.
Scathe could yes get a rework but the main issue it doesn't get used is its MP cost which makes you lose a whole Fire IV when cast in Astral Fire. So that kind of rework won't do, you're gaining 50% at the cost of a whole fire spell.
Giving raise doesn't solve BLM's issues. It already does more than RDM in terms of raid DPS but if you're replacing your RDM for raid damage you'll just pick SMN or MCH because they're too much better. Just raising Black Mage's damage to those two and making it even bigger would do it. I don't want the job to be overpowered, I just want it to be good enough so people stop not wanting to play with someone because they are a BLM. And that issue is not for BLM alone.
As for Umbral Hearts, yes it needs a massive reworkd. The resource just straight sucks and the biggest reasons we use that is because MP ticks are not reliable and Foul takes too long to charge for a no UH rotation. All UH offers is a tighter timing to refresh Astral Fire and a bandaid to our new mechanic. And yeah, I've been talking to some BLM friends on Discord and we prettu much realized either a raw damage buff per heart spent (something like ammo) or making a Fire in it proc Firestarter would probably be the best non gamebreaking solutions. Another issue is also how arbitrary Convert is on the amount of MP you give. Your spells cost 1200 so multiples of that number should be the amount that Convert give us just like DRK skills do and not a weird random 4644 just because that is 20% of our MP pool.
Umbral Hearts is a weird mechanic that rewards you so little and honestly, before you get Foul it doesn't even reward you with two full Fire IVs because MP ticks can screw you over. It just feels Hearts are here to patch up the rotation to fit our only real new Spell because MP ticks wouldn't let it happen. Making all Spells cost 0 on Umbral Ice would be one of the solutions while making Scathe viable since you actually have MP to Scathe at least once on AF if you went inside it with near full MP. Forcing MP ticks to happen is also not a bad solution. Being tied to MP ticks always been caused BLM issues and if they removed the ricking down from DRK why can't they give up a form to avoid the ticking up. -
10-10-2017, 02:26 AMLlugen
I suggested that umbral ice just immediately give you back MP in full over relying on server ticks wayyyy back in 2.0. Not only would this make the class much less annoying to play for having to deal with server ticks, it would make spell speed that much more valuable because you don't have to have a potential loss on a late tick.
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10-10-2017, 05:00 AMFerrinus
BLM needs some kind of bonus that accumulates or fires off each time you spend any number of umbral hearts, so that it’s
both worth it to use B4 every rotation on single targets and worth it to cast F2 twice before Flare on grouped targets.
It could be an accumulating buff to personal damage or a penalty to the target’s magic resistance or even “free” seconds of Foul charge time so that Foul benefits more from spellspeed, I dunno. But Blizzard 4 is currently the most glaring weakness in BLM design.
Oh yeah, and I want UI options to put Leylines/Between the Lines on one button, and Enochian/Fire4/Blizzard4 on another single button. -
10-10-2017, 05:07 AMLlugen
Single-button UI would be appreciated for things like that, but I'm pretty fine with how it is. I just need the elephant in the room addressed, and that is the "raw damage utility" paradox/myth.
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10-10-2017, 08:06 AMGalvuuYou and I talked this over in the other 4.0 thread where I qq'd over BLM sucking, but I'd also like a new form of Raging Strikes tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrinus
Like a new ogcd with a 120s cd that gives me 20% extra damage over 20s or something like that. I miss aligning openers like I did on Midas/Creator :(
I also may be the only one, but Eno+F4+B4 in the same button messes my brain up. I hate it in pvp.
I have one bar for ogcd buffs, on for astral spells and one for umbral spells.
Seeing a F4 in the umbral bar or eno in the astral bar is so... disconcerting. -
10-10-2017, 08:12 AMzuzu-bq
In all fairness the "IV spells and enochian" in one button can create issues with latency. BLM already has fewer buttons than other jobs, I don't see a reason for that to happen. It is like this on PvP because they tried to reduce buttons to a minimum. As for LL becomes BtL, while it would be cool there isn't much reason for it either except for a mild QoL and can also create latency issues.
On top of that, almost everyone agrees new Blizzard IV sucks and Umbral Hearts are a bad mechanic. Making Polyglot sacale with SpS would also be great, at some point in gearing we'll need a sweet SpS spot instead of simply stacking it if nothing about MP ticks and Polyglot changes.
About Raging Strikes: one more oGCD to clip wouldn't be much fun, we already have the role skills to use that are a pain sometimes. I'd rather like passive Enochian buff or just plain more potency on spells. Plus, more buffs to juggle increase damage disparity between players and SE doesn't want that so they might simply not do it because of that. -
10-10-2017, 08:27 AMGalvuuClipping ogcds isn't an issue with Triple if they have longer cds (60/90/120s).Quote:
Originally Posted by zuzu-bq
Clipping is only an issue on Manashift/Manaward because they may not align with Triple/procs.
In fact, Manashift will only align with procs because you do it after getting the first UI tick, and optimally you never Triple there (Triple is best used on F4 for maximum dps gains). -
10-10-2017, 08:37 AMzuzu-bq
Yeah clipping isn't an issue with Triple up. Which realistically almost never happens outside openner for role skills and Manaward. Even on openner you're still forced to clip Enochian anyways.
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10-10-2017, 09:34 AMLlugen
Flat potency buffs are not only boring, but dangerous. Haphazardly increasing B4/F4 to 280 for instance, would be a VERY poor decision on SE's part, particularly with regards to scaling and testing. The class does decent damage, we don't want it to be SO strong that it's broken, it just needs some love and quality of life, particularly with regards to B4 and in my opinion, thundercloud (proc length/dot length could use an adjustment to better fit together or add together).
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10-10-2017, 12:25 PMzuzu-bq
Flat potency buffs are far less dangerous than buffs on skills that provide percentage stuff. Like they keep doing everywhere. Don't underestimate MCH's +1% buff.
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10-10-2017, 12:34 PMKabooaIt increases their average RDPS contribution by 20%, which it was 1.25% before, meaning 1.25 x 1.2 = 1.5.Quote:
Originally Posted by zuzu-bq
If we take a raid with 30,000 RDPS, then previously the Machinist provided an extra 375, and now provides an extra 450. This will fluctuate based on buff alignments, uptime windows, etc, by encounter. If a machinist previously was doing 5k DPS, then the previous RDPS was would put him at 107.5% of his damage, while the +1% buff would tune this to approximately 109%.
By any metric it's pretty close to a statistical insignificance -which is still more than Black mage can claim- D: -
10-10-2017, 02:12 PMAysen
It would be cool if every time a BLM spends an Umbral Heart the entire party received a small amount of mana.
Practically, it could be something like all party members recover 1% of their mana. Roughly 3% every 30s seems reasonable. Can tweak the numbers. Maybe 2%. Who knows.
Lore-wise it could be something like, shatters an Umbral Heart and directs it's energies to bolster the party's mana and calm the torrent of energies surrounding the black mage while affected by Astral Fire.
Wouldn't be too far of a stretch lore-wise, would make Umbral Hearts more than a gimmick and would give BLM party usefulness. We're already considered "mana batteries". Might as well embrace it. -
10-10-2017, 03:15 PMKabooaI don't disagree with the utility, just the execution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aysen
That amount of MP is likely to be completely wasted or insignificant where it matters. It's weaker than a bard or machinist, and it's not strong enough to be useful when it's needed most.
Speaking personally, I've always been a fan of the 'Twin Mage' aesthetic, and given one half of that tends to be a Black Magic user...
Aetherial Manipulation: Attune to your targeted party member, traveling to their location. While within X yalms of this ally, they benefit from your Attunement and Leylines. Allies may end this by moving more than X yalms away. Only one ally may be attuned at one time.
Ice: Refreshes MP. (Ideally weaker than Song, but strong enough that it's more than 3% per 30 since you only spend a few ticks in Ice anyways.)
Fire: Increased Potency, Increased Resource Cost. (For when they want to pew pew and have resources to spare)
It's selective, so it can be stronger for the single individual. It also provides Black Mage a place in learning or in wipe recovery, where they can elect to deal less damage to feed MP into someone (And while B4 is still mostly DPS neutral, it does provide a non-wasted spell in Ice stance to give someone another tick of refresh) and progress further into a fight. Not as good as a Red Mage, but better than before, and rather than have a Flat party buff, the 'Fire' boost would also drain someone's TP/MP faster. Ideal for burn phases, less so for sustained DPS.
It's not truly "Raid buff", but it's a selective buff, which is acceptable on a cannon archetype. -
10-10-2017, 04:38 PMEllieShadeflare
Black Mage is utterly fine. We got the fix we needed in 4.05, and we're constantly fighting with Monk for second best DPS.
And you know what? We don't need utility. We don't need gimmicks. We're a goshdarned self sustained man sized artillery, and most groups either take a Samurai or a Black Mage or both before considering utility. Why? Utility is nothing without stopping power, which we bring in droves. If anything, the only change we'd need is Fire IV being 280 base potency again, but that may be much. Umbral Hearts are utterly fantastic, especially since they allow us to hit objectively higher numbers than in HW, minus 20 base potency be damned because we get more Fire IVs per Astral Fire rotation.
It's also hilarious to see people complaining about this lack of utility in Black Mage, especially since in Heavensward, Bards complained about being there for the support and no damage. -
10-10-2017, 04:49 PMKabooaAlmost everything you said here is refuted by both hard data and anecdotal evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare
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10-10-2017, 05:28 PMEllieShadeflareAnd? Everything I've said is also supported by hard evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=100
Oh look, 2nd place, right under Samurai.
http://www.gamerevolution.com/guides...-list#/slide/1
3rd place this time under Summoner (which, by the by, has often been considered weaker than it actually is, but both classes are more than capable).
But sure, let me argue further as to why Black Mage is fine (as a Black Mage since ARR, gotten my Kaladanda Lux, and am going through savage currently). Funny how you don't fully refute me though with actual... points? Just a "ur wrong".
Black Mage's primary flaw at the start of SB was that it could not perform the intended rotation without serious injections of Spell Speed (a stat, by the way, which happens to be our primary tertiary stat, followed by Direct Hit and then by Critical Hit... so technically not as much of a problem but still bad). It was nigh impossible to utilize Thundercloud, manage the overly long cast times of Fire IV and trying to keep Astral Fire/Enochian up at the same time. Players had to switch to the Heavensward 4x Fire IV rotation or cut out Thundercloud entirely.
What solved this? The reduction in cast time for Fire IV. We were now able to use the extra two Fire IVs that the Umbral Hearts were designed to accommodate, as well as keep Thundercloud relatively active... and the evidence shows quite nicely. Thanks to this, Black Mage was indeed able to essentially pull off the old HW opener at all times, and now pull off a whopping 8x Fire IV opener, all the while, having tools to maintain Astral Fire (holding Firestarter is great for said opener, using Sharpcast to confirm it), Thundercloud and the ability to line up almost perfectlywith the first Foul in our rotation.
Having this sheer damage is what make Black Mage valuable, in the same way that Samurai is. In fact, utility classes like Bard and Machinist run into the potential of being toothless if you double down on utility without bringing one of the heavy hitters into the fray. Also, among the DPSes, Black Mage is one of the few that can benefit from all three offensive cards put up by Astrologian and Scholar's ability to Chain Strategm is especially appreciated due to our already intense damage having a higher chance to crit than we can do on our own. Oh, and for maximum carnage? Summoner, a class that can already inflict serious pain on its own, can further empower a Black Mage using Contagion... and the buff to Devotion is only going to help further.
Black Mages and other raw DPS classes can mean the difference between hitting enrage or beating the boss, and the laughable attempt to downplay this and call BLM's role as a pure DPS as "bad" is somewhat foolish. -
10-10-2017, 05:35 PMLelila38
And still parties actively exclude both Blm and Sam. But yeah sure, everything is fine if people keep telling you to switch to Rdm.
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10-10-2017, 05:40 PMEllieShadeflareHonestly, that sounds like a "find better groups" problem. No group worth its salt would refuse either of them. Well, unless they read the forums apparently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lelila38
also beyond embolden and battle rez, red mages are rather weak and don't perform all that well and rarely show up in the top ten groups -
10-10-2017, 05:47 PMLelila38I agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare
Still reality in pf is different. Im lucky enough to have a static that let's me play the class of my choice, but people that have to clear stuff in pf are in a bad position. -
10-10-2017, 06:36 PMLlugen
The bottom line, as I said a few pages ago, has nothing to do with "meta", "doing fine", or "desire/capability", it has to do with the flaw in SE's logic.
REGARDLESS of what everyone thinks concerning the class, "pure damage as utility" is not only a bad design choice (parties will always want party utility over selfish DPS), but straight WRONG when you consider that SMN is already stronger damage (nullifying "damage as utility" off the bat), AND more utility.
This needs addressed immediately, without question, and there is no argument that can be made against it. Classes are to be balanced at their maximum potential, not "average player skill." -
10-10-2017, 06:37 PMBlackcatChen
>Black Mages and other raw DPS classes can mean the difference between hitting enrage or beating the boss, and the laughable attempt to downplay this and call BLM's role as a pure DPS as "bad" is somewhat foolish.
Other way around, you're absolutely wrong. There's a reason why the fastest clears all have the same comp. And that composition doesn't include a blm or sam, at all.
Personal DPS is not equal to raid DPS contribution. -
10-10-2017, 06:53 PMKairi-Lhttps://www.fflogs.com/character/id/98584Quote:
Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare
?