Monk ignored for 4.1

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

How about you wait for actual patch notes before creating a hyperbolic complaint thread?

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So, uh, how 'bout them patch notes, eh? We all know it, but there's nothing that they're going to do to change monk right now, it's too risky. The job is gradually losing its identity and the developers know, but what can they change right now that they would think to be an honest improvement? Can't do too much damage, it'll be better than Samurai, can't be too fast, speed is Ninja's gimmick as well, can't have Brotherhood perform fantastically, what reason would we have to bring Dragoon? Monk is in a fickle spot, but it's in TOO fickle a spot to where any changes can skyrocket past the other melee in terms of desirability. So where can the devs improve? Rework all the current (and still previous) button bloat? Double down on the Riddles? Focus on changing the Fists and promote stance dancing? Streamlining the fists and promoting more stack management? Where do the Chakras fit in other than Forbidden Chakra? Are the Chakras already outdated for only being used for one skill? There's so many things to consider that there's nothing to do but make "a hyperbolic complaint thread."

They actually said in the live letter (unofficially translated) that any jobs not mentioned here and now will not be changed. So the comment about waiting for patch notes was ridiculous in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Xaert

speed is Ninja's gimmick as well

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I gotta ask. Why has MNK's speed been looked at as a gimmick to be shared with NIN? I know they have the same speed percentage increase between GL3 and Huton but the entire point of NIN isn't completely centered around speed and while clearly a dps loss when Huton is lost it doesn't have anything on losing GL nor does it have to be built up as such either. Speed has always been MNK's identity. It's was at one point the focal point of the class. I understand NIN exists but why is MNK limited when NIN has an entirely different kit makeup. Dunno, this isn't the first time I've heard that and it always rubbed me the wrong way.

Part of me wishes they go rework on the other two fists of the MNK skills. Fists of Fire is fine, Riddle of Fire is workable if you stack the right amount of skill speed. Brotherhood is okay unless you are in a group of all casters (or slow phys dps)

Fists of Earth, to me is situational for solo and those moments where the Tank bites it, you're next on threat and you need time for you to take some hits until the tank gets back up. Riddle of Earth should apply a DEF up bonus to the entire raid, great for raid wide AoE. I'd love to put on a mini stoneskin for those oh crap moments, it would help out in raids.

Fists of Wind should emulate something that has really, REALLY, fast punching. Like 15% more skill speed (but no critical hits for balance). They should of put the "resets greased lightning" on Riddle of Wind instead of making it another tackle.

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Originally Posted by Blacktestament7

I gotta ask. Why has MNK's speed been looked at as a gimmick to be shared with NIN?

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I really wish I could tell you the answer to that, but all I can really say is the Devs desired it to be that in 2/3.0. It fit in quite nicely: Low dps with high utility, moderate dps with moderate utility, and high dps with low utility. Now it fits somewhere in between that, with the introduction of Samurai. I do wish that they kept the dot-scaling damage from Monk's Skill Speed that they tried out nearing the end of 3.0 though, it gave it a flavorful twist even if it was negligible. Speed HAS been Monk's identity, Hamon even says it himself in the early Pugilist quests, "Rather than trying to deal great damage with a single blow, he pummels his foe with lightning-fast combinations." This clarifies beyond the shadow of a doubt that they truly had no idea where to put monk for Stormblood and that the homogenization of classes is a non-issue to them.

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Speed HAS been Monk's identity, Hamon even says it himself in the early Pugilist quests, "Rather than trying to deal great damage with a single blow, he pummels his foe with lightning-fast combinations." This clarifies beyond the shadow of a doubt that they truly had no idea where to put monk for Stormblood and that the homogenization of classes is a non-issue to them.

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That's really debatable honestly, due to animations like Bootshine, Demolish and Dragon kick beeing multi hit. You can consider them as "a flurry of fast blows" as much as a high skill speed.

To me the worst is simply that GL increase damage as much as attack speed, which allways make the ramp up of a monk boring in content where it is often triggered, namely Dungeons, fates, potd, open world content.
The combo of a long ramp-up, making it deal only 2/3 of it's true GCD potential, with the high requirement of positionnals, is really annoying outside of group content, and can even be annoying in them. I mean, many dungeons have breaktimes during which you can loose GL even if you end your last combo with a snap punch, and no AOE to trigger riddle of earth.

During ARR/HW, the monk had the "hardest" gameplay due to need of positionnal and ramp up, making it the greatest rewarded in personnal DPS. Now the trick is, the SAM took it's place with low constraint, but nothing changed for the monk.

It remains the job with a ramp up tied to a 3min CD, positionnals on every attack accounting for 22% of the low potency strikes, but now with a lower DPS than what it used to be.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Brotherhood is, first and foremost, a monk personal DPS cooldown.

Imagine like, only 1 Black Mage being able to use Enochian, or 1 Dragoon able to use their Eyes (the other guy just loses theirs lol sucks for him). Or only one Bard being able to use any song at all. It's baffling.

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I would just like to hop in and say that you're comparing DPS cooldown to a core rotational kit. Better example would be if only one Ley or Dragon Sight could be up at a time.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

That's really debatable honestly, due to animations like Bootshine, Demolish and Dragon kick beeing multi hit. You can consider them as "a flurry of fast blows" as much as a high skill speed.

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It's not much of a debate since there's a multitude of moves across the board that feature more than one hit in one skill. Rage of Halone is 5 slashes, Hard/Power Slash and Delirium are two hits and Carve and Spit is three, Heavy Thrust has a thrust and downwards slash, most of Ninja's basic rotation has more than one hit. By that idea, does it not also fit the idea of "a flurry of fast blows?"

The ramp-up is also a part of the identity, as I view it. Perfect Balance is highly indispensable in Monk's kit, mainly opener, and the large CD of it (albeit ridiculous) emphasizes just how critical it is to maintain GL3 once it's achieved, which is also why Tornado Kick is so disappointing in its intended use. The solo content matter of positionals is a non-issue, positionals are meant for party play in EVERY aspect of itself. Most everyone agrees on the effect of RoE reset being triggered on damage being counterproductive.

But you're right, the job remains mostly the same, which is the point of what people have been saying in this thread, at least. It's like people become upset when their favorite job shows no advancement.

tl;dr but the DRG changes are actually a small nerf, just much more streamlined for the execution/playability for the class

Also, if they ever seriously want to do something about DRG/NIN meta then they NEED to either give BRD/MCH their own piercing or remove piercing entirely, and balance trick attack. Monk is good right now, but literally nothing can compare to how good trick attack is when considering meta, and double ranged solidifies piercing home even harder.

Not only has Monks core rotation remained the same, the removal of Fracture and Touch of Death has made the class feel even more empty. Especially comparing to ninja who got a Ninki rotation added in to complement their core rotation.

Monk lost used abilities, kept useless ones and gained pretty much nearly nothing.

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Originally Posted by Xaert

It's not much of a debate since there's a multitude of moves across the board that feature more than one hit in one skill. Rage of Halone is 5 slashes, Hard/Power Slash and Delirium are two hits and Carve and Spit is three, Heavy Thrust has a thrust and downwards slash, most of Ninja's basic rotation has more than one hit. By that idea, does it not also fit the idea of "a flurry of fast blows?"

The ramp-up is also a part of the identity, as I view it. Perfect Balance is highly indispensable in Monk's kit, mainly opener, and the large CD of it (albeit ridiculous) emphasizes just how critical it is to maintain GL3 once it's achieved, which is also why Tornado Kick is so disappointing in its intended use. The solo content matter of positionals is a non-issue, positionals are meant for party play in EVERY aspect of itself. Most everyone agrees on the effect of RoE reset being triggered on damage being counterproductive.

But you're right, the job remains mostly the same, which is the point of what people have been saying in this thread, at least. It's like people become upset when their favorite job shows no advancement.

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This is really about everyone's view. I would have prefered one punch/kick animation (like twin snake, true strike and snap punch) with a really faster attack rate, than thoses swinging around like Dragon tackle, bootshine, demolish, and on a different instance : Forbidden Chakra and Tornado kick.

I view my monk as a big hitter with crucial and critical hits, more than someone that unleash an unmastered flurry of blows. But well, I play a roegadyn.. so...


About the positionnal, soloing as a monk is still boring, because the ramp up and positionnal mostly makes you half (78% of 66%) of what you can deal in group content. At least Fists of Eart / Riddle of earth could have eased on the solo side, with removal of positionnal for a cost of overall damage. The 3min CD on PB doesn't allow you to really ramp up GL while running from one mob to another, loosing stacks before having enough HP or beeing in range of the next ennemy.

One skill I enjoyed in the previous PVP, was Salto : 5s of perfect balance were enough to ramp up to GL 3 with a few form shift, and thus, not to be naked as hell constantly. I would have loved to have something like that, or a 60s PB to be able to unleash some power sometimes, out of group relevant content.

Why is the monk the weakest of the melee soloer, while carrying the picture of a martial artist ? I don't know.

This isn't about what we all would've preferred Monk to be, it's about what Monk has been and of what is comprised of it and where it needs to improve upon. We all have our own ideas of the perfect or ideal Monk, but what we have is what the Devs give. Monk WAS (and I will argue, still is) meant to be the flurry of blows of both speed AND power, not the heavy one hitter with the big numbers. That, in both body and soul currently, is Samurai for Melee and BLM for Magic/Ranged.

As for your positional stance, again, soloing is not the intended use of positionals. With soloing, if you're having trouble killing enemies, you're most likely undergeared, and that's a drastic statement since there's unlikely to be any difficulty soloing outside of FATEs, which are also intended to have multiple participants. Both RoE and RoW are ideal for soloing, if this is a point you're willing to accept, for the damage mitigation actually being useful if you'd like to sacrifice your general 5% increase from FoF, whereas RoW would function as the gap closer between sets of mobs. Either way, stance dancing between these is entirely up to how you want your soloing experience to be, regardless of how negligible or useful or relevant you want them them to be.

The ideas for a reworked Riddle of Earth are far and wide, whereas all it would need to be bearable is to proc on skill activation and not upon damage. Perfect Balance's CD has been a long controversial issue, and most of the Monk community is still in confusion as to why it hasn't been altered.

PVP and PVE are two totally different monsters to balance, and RoE and RoW feel like they were solely intended to be for PVP and were just incorporated into PVE for lack of better ideas. For the monk being the weakest of the solo squad, that's due to how to the Devs built Monk to be, for better or worse, which is why people want to see changes for their class that don't take away from the "finished" job and instead progress upon it.

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This isn't about what we all would've preferred Monk to be

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That's a basic statement that isn't exclusive to anyone, and quoting hamon from one single quest won't make your statement "the thing it should have been" but "What I choose to see".

I'm not talking about difficult to kill anything, but boredom to have to ramp up only to kill the ennemy once it's done. You don't care about solo content or levelling ? Fine. Is your opinion the truth and core thing to follow ? No, neither am I.

Sorry if my mindset dilute your idea, but as every customer has the freedom to write here, same goes about everyone. Even self-made leaders of the "how common things are and were and should be".

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Originally Posted by Yneko

-Brotherhood complaints-

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It occurred to me if they changed Brotherhood's interaction for Monk from gaining procs at random to giving Monk an effect that removes the Chakra requirements for Chakra Abilities it would solve a lot of the issues with it. There's no RNG so Monk's output would be consistent regardless of party comp, so it wouldn't feel like a total whiff to use in 4-mans or caster heavy comps, if there were multiple Monks there wouldn't be an issue with overwriting each others chakras, it wouldn't even be a buff to Monk (or at least, not a particularly large one) since Forbidden Chakra is already throttled behind a 5-second cooldown, so you'd just get 3 Forbidden Chakras per Brotherhood (one at 1 second, 6 seconds, and 11 seconds) which is basically just the best case scenario for the skill.

i think monk damages is fine BUT needs abit buff cuz smn changes.but some abilities of stomblood needs QOL like brotherhood,riddle fire,riddle earth,mastery tackles,mantra

Brotherhood:brotherhood is so melees centric i want to work on caster too so it wont feel like gabage with caster comp OR give buff to us too cuz new devotion apply buff on smn why not to us too.Make brotherhood stack when there mnks.Add side effect when second brotherhood is apply you dont gain 5% of it but you get your chakras.
Riddle Of Fire:Feel slow/clunky reduce dmg 5%(so it be 25%) on remove speed penality.Add 50% TP reduce
Riddle Of Earth:It need to freeze GL when roe buff is up perfect for long downtime.
Tackle Mastery:Make it something useful.
Mantra:smn got shetty mantra on devotion i want shetty devotion on my mantra.
Unerf some positionals moves cuz how cray smn dps are rn.
Here you go mnk is fun again.

Anyone who thinks Monk hasn't been ignored for a good while is in proper denial. 2.1 was the only time the class received any huge changes to its kit or how it performed. Everything else that has been added (or removed) afterward has been nothing but incomplete ideas and utter nonsense. I keep thinking I want to play the class seriously until I remember that I can play any of the other melee counterparts and have a kit that isn't a mess that was regurgitated from the minds of whoever works on the class in the first place. The class is incredibly stale, and many of the changes made to it add absolutely zero incentive to enjoy playing it. The kit has so many holes in it that have been constantly mentioned that at this point Monk players are getting tired of talking about it. I had faith in Square Enix that seeing as this would be the "Monk" expansion the same way HW was Dragoon's, that they would take extra care with the class. After seeing the mess called Tackle Mastery and the literal deconstruction of Monk's playstyle in Riddle of Fire, as well as ToD/Fracture being removed, it just feels sluggish. Brotherhood is simply a personal cooldown disguised as raid utility.

Monk does plenty of DPS and does DPS quite well, but if a class isn't fun then there's no point in playing it. It will always be one of the least popular jobs because of that.

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Originally Posted by Tigerlilley

They actually said in the live letter (unofficially translated) that any jobs not mentioned here and now will not be changed. So the comment about waiting for patch notes was ridiculous in the first place.

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People always say it. It feels like it's some kind of white knight defense mechanism set in place to delay disappointment or something at this point.

Anyway, it's pretty clear that Monk needs a full rework. Speed is no longer their thing, and SE seems to be terrified of making us go faster. So what we end up with is a job that moves as fast as a Ninja, with a longer ramp up, positionals up the ass and beyond punishing downtimes because for whatever reason, PB is still on a billion minute CD.

I really dont undestand why people ask things like "Monk should be more fun" "SE have to improve gameplay of Monk..." and at the same time, the same ppl post ideas to fix Monk like:

"Brotherhood should increase magic damage" or
"Make brotherhood increases damage to monk" or
"Increase potency when you miss positionals" or
"PB half CD"...

If you think that this kind of "enhancements" are what monk needs you dont think about "fun" or "gameplay", you think about "GET THE MONK INTO META !!!"

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

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The only one of those you're claiming that's a straight buff to Monk is Increasing Magic Damage and Brotherhood giving its 5% to Monk, and of those two the desire for Brotherhood applying to casters is partially a quality of life issue. Because Brotherhood doesn't apply to casters, if we end up in a caster heavy comp via the Duty Finder our level 70 skill for all intents and purposes may as well not exist. It's fucking miserable to simultaneously have Riddle of Fire reduce our cast time so we can double weave...only to not actually get any chakras so we have nothing to double weave. I don't need for it to buff magic damage, but it should at least proc off spells or have some other way of giving us chakras so we actually have consistent output instead of getting slowed down so we can weave a bunch of skills we're not getting. The increase in missed positional damage isn't a buff to monk at the top end, it just makes it less punishing to face tank mobs or miss positionals. You know what melee jobs have received this QOL fix? Every melee Job with positionals except Monk, so we've simultaneously got the most positionals and the most to lose from them.

AND 1/2 PB? IT'S LITERALLY WHAT GIVES US OUR PERSISTENT DAMAGE BUFF. IT'S NOT LIKE ASKING TO FIRE OFF TORNADO KICK WITHOUT LOSING OUR STACKS WITH ABANDON. DRAGOON AND BLACK MAGE HAVE EQUIVALENT SKILLS ON A 30 SECOND COOLDOWN TO GET A LONGER BUFF. There is no reason it should be 3 minutes long unless you think Monk should be the only job that gets screwed over by the boss going untargetable 90 seconds into the fight like so many love to do.

Not a one of these changes would get Monk into the Meta, it would just make monk less of a massive pain in the ass to play.

Edit: Also any actual recommendation that can make to improve Monk can just be called a buff in a vacuum. Returning Touch of Death/Fracture and making the Demolish timer to 21 seconds? It would improve the job's flow but also technically be a buff to our potency per minute. Some kind of Umbral Hearts esque system where Monk gains stacks of something for refreshing Greased Lightning so we can use a powerful attack can be called a buff. Even changing Tackle Mastery into something like "Form Mastery" which removes the time limit on our forms and allows us to refresh Greased Lightning by formshifting through Coeurl could even be called a buff, even if it just makes the job at best equivalent to Dragoon and Black Mage in ability to maintain our persistent buff through downtime.

It's not like Monk is super OP at the moment in the way Ninja is. It actually is probably a bit lower than what it should be being behind Summoner (which has slightly better raidwide buffs) and tied with Machinist (which has much better raidwide buffs), so who cares if improvements to our quality of life also coincidentally improve it's ability as a DPS? Certainly not the devs. They've buffed the DPS of Summoner in the course of tweaking it to the point where it's within one percent of Samurai's damage on most fiights, they buffed Bard's DPS when they reduced the recast on Barrage and the duration of Straight Shot (when it was already one of the strongest jobs mind you), and they buffed Machinist's DPS so substantially that it's currently tied with Monk for DPS while offering better support as well (again, when it was already one of the strongest jobs).

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

"GET THE MONK INTO META !!!"

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Everything I wanted to say was already said by SpeckledBurd, but seriously. At least attempt to actually read the thread instead of jumping in and claiming that we're just asking for buffs.
Everything we're discussing in here is to help Monk's current playstyle and clunkiness, not push us into the meta.

Why should Monk be so heavily reliant on physical comps to the point where we're massively gimped if we happen to have two casters?

Why is Monk, the job with the most positionals, the only job that hasn't gotten decreased punishment for missed positionals, especially in a raid tier where everything seems to want to face the group and screw up everything.

Why should Monk's "buff" work against them to the point where Demolish has to be either clipped heavily or is dropped for a tick?

You would have to actually play Monk to k ow exactly how bad all of this and more is.

SpeckledBurd summed up everything that MNK suffers from quite well, but I'd like to add my own thoughts here.

I really feel like the class wouldn't become OP whatsoever if we removed the form timer and let it stay as is, with an option to remove it like AST's Undraw. One massive problem I have, and a lot of others do, is the whole button mashing game you play before fights in order to get your 5 chakras. I farmed A1s for my relic and let me tell you, pressing one button 5 times then 3 times to get to the right form is just quite annoying. Now repeat that process for over 100 x 2 times and you just start hating the class. At this point I'd take QoLs over buffs because it just feels annoying to play MNK these days. I haven't gotten to 70 yet, but as far as I know, the class hasn't changed much.

Why does Steel Peak still exist? No seriously, why? It's the definition of Button Bloat, the thing SE wanted to get rid of. It's the most bland, useless skill in the entire game and adds nothing to MNK's playstyle and it's just a silly button you press on CD. It exists in some classes like NIN's Jugulate and PLD's Spirits Within, which both have AT LEAST some degree of usefulness. It's not like Jump back in pre-HW where Jump just does damage. Jump had the job's aesthetic, and it had power up to 300 potency with Power Surge, and it felt strong to use, with a good, and rather risky animation. Steel Peak is just...there. Seriously, make it useful or just remove it outright. It's the most boring ability in the entire game.

Yup, looking at Steel peak, riddles, shoulder tackles, no more touch of death and one ilm punch, its like they didnt know what to do at all with monk before releasing stormblood and gave us this at the last minute... and now they are really taking their time adressing the issue of the job making no sense at all and beeing far less fun than in heavensward :/

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Why is Monk, the job with the most positionals, the only job that hasn't gotten decreased punishment for missed positionals, especially in a raid tier where everything seems to want to face the group and screw up everything.

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Well, this is a funny question. The answer is: because mnk is all about positionals. If you compare MNK to any other melee, it's easy to see that the job's personal mechanic IS its positionals. You basically have nothing else to manage since you more or less use everything on cd, when you exclude the extremely trivial "don't use IR before bootshine". DRG have eye stacks/geirskogul/lotd management, which became much more important and engaging after 4.1 changes. NIN have ninjutsu and a separate ninki rotation built around TA and TCJ that changes based on almost every fight. SAM have 3 non linear combos + sen and kenki management. I mean, if you take the positionals away from MNK or make them very forgiving...you have an easier versione of PLD. At least PLD has a magic session lol

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Why should Monk's "buff" work against them to the point where Demolish has to be either clipped heavily or is dropped for a tick?

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This really doesn't make a difference. The only thing that matters is damage. DoTs clipping is totally irrelevant, unless you're some kind of crazy DoT maniac. DRG always clip their CT DoT, the same is true for NIN's SF and there are also instances where SAM might have to clip higanbana dot depending on hagakure cd and available sen. But I could probably just say "Iron Jaws" and leave it at that. In short, DoT clipping is a very weak argument.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

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There are so many flaws with this that I don't even know where to start.
Considering that other melee jobs still have positionals, to state that it's MNK's personal mechanic is ludicrous. I still remember when DRG had just as many positionals as MNK and were much more punished for missing them then MNK ever was (No Heavy Thrust buff if not used from Flank being the most frustrating IMO back in the day). Additionally, the fact even an entirely new melee class (SAM) has positionals as well just further makes this train of thought laughably bad. Then, you state that damage is all that matters but when MNKs damage is being kneecaped by it's "own" mechanics, doesn't this sort of demonstrate the exact problem with MNK? Why is it that every other class keeps getting free passes while MNK is sort of left to the wayside?

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Originally Posted by Alexalibur

PLD's Spirits Within.....(silence)..

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Spirit Within no longer silences.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Spirit Within no longer silences.

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I had no idea. Thanks for correcting me.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

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I mean, back when MNK was actually top dps, positionals being on every form gcd was basically what determined the good MNKs from the bad. I agree though that positionals is not just MNK's mechanic, every melee has them. But MNK is punished way more than it should be now. We are no longer the top personal DPS in the game. Our skill ceiling is still just as high and just as punishing as ever before in fact even more so because we cannot offset a positional with ToD or Fracture. And True North's CD is so fucking long that it's nothing but a short term fix in a fight like V3s where the boss is constantly jumping around. Not to mention our buff timers are so short compared to everyone elses. Honestly DRG still has something like 6s on refreshing HT, that's almost 3 GCDs, TwS and DK have about 3s left? Basically 1-2 GCD away from falling off (during RoF it's more like 1s before refresh) That's almost the equivalent of running out of a melee range aoe attack and our buffs fall off.

The gap becomes even bigger when you factor in potencies at GL3. For reference, Snap punch is 170 from the flank and 130 from outside that. GL3(factoring out other buffs) puts it up to 221 from the flank and 169 from outside. That 40 potency drop off is now actually a 52 potency drop off. Now imagine we factor in all other buffs excluding RoF. positional = 280.78 potency. missed positional = 214.71. That's 66.07 potency lost. now imagine if we miss the positional inside RoF's window. 365 - 279= 86 potency drop off. Monk is punished really badly for missing any positional than any other melee (except maybe TA) but you have 10s to hit the rear. Despite having a simple rotation, the potency drop off on missed positionals, short timers on forms and buffs, perfect balance's ridiculous CD length, combined with clunky gimmicks to keep GL3 make Monk a real pain to play. I mained the job since 2.1 and it felt good to play for ARR and HW, because it felt like from ARR -> HW that monk actually progressed. We got a way to expend GL3 when we could keep it, we got a way to get to GL quicker with form shift, and we got 2 of the most badass abilities in the form of Forbidden Chakra and Elixir Field. I felt like the job progressed and the HW story set up for more opportunities to gain different chakra abilities (seriously, 7 chakras of light and 7 chakras of darkness and we can only use 5 still(?)) But this time we got Brotherhood, RoE, RoF, Deep Med. & the best one, fire tackle. Yay. 3 buffs and 2 traits.

No new dps skills on a DPS. a buff that was basically a b4b replacement except with a hinderance attached. The worst raid buff in the game, brotherhood. Although not bad for gaining chakras, but I'd rather deep meditation worked off GL3 refreshes when GL3 was already active(At least it would have some synergy with PB) instead of deep med and brotherhood chakras working against each other and missing potential forbidden chakras because RNG. And lastly we got RoE, because apparently hitting a CD to just refresh your already lowest timer in the game wasn't easy enough like it is with DRGs 30s timer (that can actually be as high as 80s counting LotD>BotD>CD BotD) and BLMs Enochian that can already be kept indefinitely with transpose. Nope we got the short end of the stick and have to actually be hit. Can't hit that last snap punch before the boss jumps? GG you now have about 7-8s to be hit.(even if you TK the boss would jump before the damage applies loll) But it's okay you can spam form shift because that 10s timer is going to run out too, too bad your last hit crit and you got a 5th chakra which you now can't even use meditation to make use of your downtime. The saddest part of all this is that despite hating what MNK has become when it had so much potential to become something even more than it's HW iteration, it just doesn't. I wonder how many more posts we need before we'll get GL4 in some way. I mean they said it was a possibility and after everything else we got this expansion GL4 would be my saving grace to the job as it was the most obvious progression point for the job.

use my fflogs for reference. I've played MNK at a high skill level for a long time

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

People always say it. It feels like it's some kind of white knight defense mechanism set in place to delay disappointment or something at this point.

Anyway, it's pretty clear that Monk needs a full rework. Speed is no longer their thing, and SE seems to be terrified of making us go faster. So what we end up with is a job that moves as fast as a Ninja, with a longer ramp up, positionals up the ass and beyond punishing downtimes because for whatever reason, PB is still on a billion minute CD.

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I'm really glad to see I'm not the only one who see's this issue. As of right now DRG is the only melee DPS who doesn't get a haste buff, which really makes MNK's supposed focus on Speed really hard to swallow.

What I can get behind is ramp up and stockpiling, something MNK already does fairly well. I would honestly prefer GL and Chakra's to become something more akin to combo points that MNK spends on oGCD's.

Some easy band-aid type of fixes that could be considered:

Riddle of Earth: Grants earth's reply, fists of earth, and refreshes greased lightning ON USE, and not on being attacked. I like using Fists of Earth in a case where unavoidable damage is about to go out and I can't punch anything, like after the second sword in Susano EX or during Divine Doubt in Lakshmi EX, so getting both that mitigation and greased lightning refresh would be good. Possibly keep the same refresh on Greased Lightning for EVERY hit you take while earth's reply is active in addition to the initial refresh. OR apply the greased lighting refresh upon entering fists of wind, and let earth's reply deal damage back to the enemy for every attack you take. (which would also be an asset to the monk when soloing stuff in the world since every enemy has a positional ring the monk can never utilize)

Riddle of Fire: Remove the debuff on speed, even if that means a reduction to the potency increase. So something like maybe a flat 15-20% boost to all damage dealt.

Tackle Mastery: Remove entirely. It's a pointless buff. No fight has needed us to riddle of wind, no monk wants to knock back an enemy so it can't be hit.

Brotherhood: Apply the "Devotion" change and have it increase damage dealt by all nearby party members by 5%, not just physical damage. Have the 30% chakra opening also trigger on allies landing spells.

Also, reduce the cooldown on True North. There are far too many mechanics in Omega EX that require you to be in set positions for monk to not be completely hosed for missing positionals that they have no choice but to miss, and only getting to bypass that every two and a half minutes is not good enough. I would say make it a 60 second cooldown, which would have the side benefit of lining up for ninja with trick attack, so they can ensure trick attack always lands (just in case a boss turns)

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Everything we're discussing in here is to help Monk's current playstyle and clunkiness, not push us into the meta.

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ok...lets read...

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Why should Monk be so heavily reliant on physical comps to the point where we're massively gimped if we happen to have two casters?

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gameplay? no, its about comps, no gameplay or "fun" here, just "pls make monk meta"

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Why is Monk, the job with the most positionals, the only job that hasn't gotten decreased punishment for missed positionals, especially in a raid tier where everything seems to want to face the group and screw up everything.

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gameplay? nope again, its about "positional punish"...its about Potency and DPS...again "monk should be meta !! "

TLDR : The guy who can't give up.

Tip : Magical shades don't give you the ability to foresee the intents of people.

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

Snip

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How is this about pushing MNK into the meta? SMN got a similar buff with Devotion which was equally underwhelming so what exactly is the problem with Brotherhood getting it, especially since MNK's damage was nerfed specifically for more Raid Utility?

As for the argument about positionals, that is 100% gameplay. MNK's entire rotation is about hitting positionals correctly but every other job has gotten free passes on missing theirs in some form or another. How does asking for equal treatment equate to "Pushing MNK into the meta"? We already have the 2nd Highest DPS among Melee with very, VERY little real raid utility that even if our DPS numbers got slightly better, we'd still be behind SAMs and nothing would realistically change at all in the meta.

Your strawman arguments are PATHETIC.

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

ok...lets read...



gameplay? no, its about comps, no gameplay or "fun" here, just "pls make monk meta"



gameplay? nope again, its about "positional punish"...its about Potency and DPS...again "monk should be meta !! "

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Please think critically.

The point of Riddle of Fire's slowdown is so Monk can double weave. If Chakras don't proc, Monk has 4 cool downs that actually can be used which hardly makes double weaving necessary, making the slowdown unnecessary.

So what does that mean? Why it means that Brotherhood not proccing off casters does actually negatively affect monks gameplay.

As much as I used to enjoy playing monk I was terrified with the changes when I came back after about a year long break. Most of the Monks I knew switched to SAMs or Ninjas. I just hope they will look into this during upcoming patches.

Since this is the most active Monk thread on the internet I'd like to take this opportunity and ask a question. I've been wondering about materia for a while now. I've seen a couple of guides and none of them seem to give me a definitive answer. I know there are 3 stats to be considered: Critical>Direct>Skill Speed, but I'm not entirely sure on what should I prioritise. I'm not that experienced with today's trends and since I came back recently I got a bit rusty. I just want to be able to perform on a decent level.

My current stats go roughly as this:
Ilvl 335

Critical Hit: 1600
Direct Hit: 1500
Determination: 750-800
Skill Speed: 1500

Should I change things around or stay on this path? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

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Originally Posted by Rebellius555

Should I change things around or stay on this path? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

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Honestly if you're not planning on raiding at a high end game level then just do what you like. Your prioritization of stats are correct, mostly, I'd say Crit > Direct > Det > Sks for raw power.

However, I run on a high SKs BiS myself because I can't stand Riddle's slow, demolish's clipping since they took away ToD and fracture, and I prefer raiding with a higher sks now that tp is a non issue. It saves my stacks in some fights since I can get more hits in than I can on a low sks.

Here is a high sks with strong crit build: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/120LK
Here is a low sks - focuses Crit/DH build: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/13C4L

Do what you feel is more fun.

What I've been getting told, skill speed is great for monks now that TP isn't an issue like it was in Heavensward for two reasons: one, monks have the strongest auto attacks in the game, and auto attack damage is directly related to skill speed, just like DOTs. Two, higher skill speed, at the right thresholds, will mean you can get off more attacks under Riddle of Fire.

However, crit should absolutely be your number one stat since your chakras are now directly connected to critical hits. This is true regardless of if you're planning on raiding high end content.

I feel that Monks will not be addressed because the developers don't see Riddle of Fire as a problem because of the numbers it puts out.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

I feel that Monks will not be addressed because the developers don't see Riddle of Fire as a problem because of the numbers it puts out.

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Which is a shame because MNK's toolkit is a train wreck.


One Ilm Punch and Arm of the Destroyer are lack luster skills because the damage on them has to be hampered due to having secondary effects, which are useless in 90% of content and even when they would be useful, they're gated by Form stances which further limits their usefulness. I really wish One Ilm Punch would be converted into a Line AoE, the silence effect tacked on to Steel Peak and AotD just became a decent AoE attack.

Tornado Kick is still a huge DPS loss in any situation because GL is too large a cost for MNK to trade away and then Riddle of Earth just complicates this because it functions to stop us from losing GL so we don't have to use Tornado Kick in the 1st place.

Tackle Mastery is so bad that the person that thought of it should be thrown to the wolves, rescued and then thrown into a lion's den. It's just so poorly thought out it that there is no saving it as it currently is. It's pointless, pure and simple. Fist Stances are also a relic of the past. Realistically, you're in Fire 99% of the time with Earth only seeing use due to RoE anymore. Wind is a joke to use anywhere outside of town so really, it should just be a movement speed trait and be axed as an active skill. Unless they make it so that each stance equal to one other, Fire will just continue to be used and any abilities, traits, etc that involve alternative stances is doomed to fall into obscurity.

imo mnk is in the "progress" meta (like rdm), just not in the "speedkill" meta (like rdm)

for personal high fflogs dps, put a mnk in a 2-3 melee party comp and mnk will be close to sam if not out dpsing a sam, depending on the fight

This has been said several times and several times it has been countered with, this is NOT about a monk's DPS, this is purely an issue in how the job plays, which, if you read the thread, you would also realise this is the case.

Monk has so many things wrong in it's toolkit, including near useless abilities (which SB was supposed to address), abilities which contradict each other and abilities which just don't make sense or can feel terrible to use. Many posts have been made explaining the issues and all people think is monks want a DPS increase. NO. We just want our job to play better, have less useless skills, have abilities that complement each other and the monk's playstyle and not the mess we have now.

If people say, well, play another DPS job, that's fine, but if people have to stop playing a job they used to enjoy to play something else, which they might not enjoy as much, then that clearly shows that there is a problem with Monk. So far, none of the other DPS jobs give me the same satisfaction as playing Monk in 2.X and 3.X and I've levelled MNK, DRG, MCH, BLM and RDM to 70, with SAM to 68 and the rest to 60. There is an issue hat needs to be solved, and not everyone seems to understand that and the quicker people stop thinking this is a DPS issue, the quicker this can get sorted.