Undercutting by 1 gil?

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Originally Posted by Ransom

... who put stuff on MB for LESS THAN A VENDOR WOULD HAVE PAID THEM!

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I may add, people that put on market the crafting items you buy from NPC at 1 Gil or alike.

If I sell in bulk, I probably want those items gone and I will undercut by 1 gil. If I'm selling tiny stacks of highly valuable items, I'm banking on selling in the right city with a competitive (but not asinine 1 gil undercut) pricing.

Now, I'd rather be undercut by 1 gil than have people undercut by 500-1000 gil or, and I don't know what these people are thinking, 10,000 or more gil.

Mostly I avoid major price wars by simply having retainers spread out across cities and selling for those particular markets.

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Originally Posted by Pondera

I mean....seriously? Is there a more annoying thing to do? It doesn't save the buyer any money, it's just some guy going "Give me your gil instead of this other guy". I've been seeing this trend all over the place lately. Does this even work? Seriously, people, you see this? Pick the next seller up on the list just to spite them.

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Really? You're upset over THAT? Undercutting by 1 gil is what you're supposed to do and what any that sells stuff on the market SHOULDNT get upset over, or would you rather see people constantly undercutting by 1k or more and completely crash the market in no time at all? I'd rather someone undercut me by 1 gil than undercut me with 1k every time, there are people that do that and I hate those because it takes forever to repair that damage to the prices/you investing to bring the prices back up.

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Originally Posted by TheCount

Really? You're upset over THAT? Undercutting by 1 gil is what you're supposed to do and what any that sells stuff on the market SHOULDNT get upset over, or would you rather see people constantly undercutting by 1k or more and completely crash the market in no time at all? I'd rather someone undercut me by 1 gil than undercut me with 1k every time, there are people that do that and I hate those because it takes forever to repair that damage to the prices/you investing to bring the prices back up.

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On the flip side, I actually hate the people who only undercut by 1 gil, because it's a lazy and blatant attempt to get "first" on the MB listing, without having to actually pay the price of such a "advantage". It's also why I will admit I get a weird kind of schadenfreude by once I come across someone like that, I deliberately attempt to crash the price, since as a high level crafter and gatherer, most of the stuff I make explicitly for selling have rather wide profit margins, and I dont care enough about the marketboard economy to try and maintain something that the next 10 people could move in, and immediately "damage" (in your own words). Better to just sell what I have, and move on with my day so I can enjoy the rest of the game.

If you really want that top spot, as far as I'm concerned, you should be prepared to loose far more money then just 1 gil.

I dunno. It's good banter. I was selling an item where there was only 1 other seller. We went back and forward undercutting by 1 gil. I went back to starting price, they followed suit. It was a good game of cat and mouse. We both sold our item though so no harm.

Like the person above me though I did once crash the market on an item when someone came in at like 75% my selling fee. (example I was selling for 40K and they came in at like 10k) so I reduced mine to 4k which was less than you could buy NPC. They beat me on it as I knew they would, I bought it myself saving me money as it was less than NPC cost and stuck mine back to 40K and stuck the other one I just bought on at 40K lol 36k* profit on it when I sold both.

I didn't feel bad about it lol

*fees shown is example

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

Yes it does, it saves the buyer 1 gil.

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A bit of nitpicking: It depends if they truly saved themselves 1 gil. I often buy something that is more expensive simply because I dont have to pay that much taxes thus even if something costs more on paper it will be cheaper under certain circumstances.

What Rhus did is smart... I always love to look for items of value that people post for less than vendor value. I find some items it happens more than with others; easy profit. But purposely crashing the market because you're angry someone dares try to get a quick sale without losing profits is just a bit... wow. This is how the market boards work. If you want to make money, you need to get fast sales with good profit. We only get 40 sale slots (or more if you're willing to shell out more real world cash for overpriced retainers). Undercutting is just part of the game and undercutting by 1 gil is what keeps the market healthy.

I get it though. A lot of people don't care about the "health of the mb". But jeez, you are some spiteful people. :I

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Originally Posted by Mikki

But purposely crashing the market because you're angry someone dares try to get a quick sale without losing profits is just a bit... wow.

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It's not outof anger, it's outof spite.

While sure, I'd love to strike gold and get gil towards, oh lets say a house, I currently have more then enough to get by, and thusly I honestly cannot say I care about the "health of the MB" when I know for a fact it's already fickle enough to crash within minutes dependant on what players decide to list X item. If I have something to sell, and MB is viable to maybe actually give me enough of a profit for me to care, I want it gone and as soon as possible, or the next time I look, that 1 mil, might be 200k, simply due to 1 guy undercutting me by 1, then someone else undercuts them by 1k, and so on, and so on.

If people stay in the game, despite the drasticly decreasing price, I'll gladly admit that it's a extremely petty trait of mine, but I do enjoy knowing that while I may (key word may, since MBPVP) have denied myself outof, shall we say 400k gil, I've also done the same, if not more, to someone who might actually truly care that it happened (As I said, I get by, so for me it's just a "oh well. Better luck next time")

I have no lack of gil myself - I've enough for a large house and a medium if I really wanted it, so honestly it isn't a huge deal to me if I lose out on profits and I would imagine for most people who are serious about the market boards, this is also the case (for me it's just fun to set and try to meet a quota of 1 million gil per day in sales). And I can tell you that if you would like to "strike gold" and get enough for a house, you need to undercut by 1 gil and care at least a little about the market's health. Sure, you can't control other idiots on the board and the markets can be easily crashed but you can at least help by not contributing to it. I'm sure a lot of the crashes that happen are from spiteful people.

But you know, I will undercut by 1 gil. If someone tanks the market, I'll just hold onto the item until the prices go back up (unless it literally takes little effort to get/make that item and I actually don't mind losing the profit). I haven't been denied my profit, just had it put off a bit. No big deal, I'll just list something else. Or, if you've tanked it a ridiculous amount then I'll just do what Rhus said and buy it and resell it getting double the profit with no effort. ....Would you still feel satisfied knowing that you may in some cases double someone's profit with no effort?

Anyway, I guess there isn't much to say if you admit you're just being spiteful and you don't actually care about how healthy the mb is. :I

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Originally Posted by Mikki

I have no lack of gil myself - I've enough for a large house and a medium if I really wanted it, so honestly it isn't a huge deal to me if I lose out on profits and I would imagine for most people who are serious about the market boards, this is also the case (for me it's just fun to set and try to meet a quota of 1 million gil per day in sales). And I can tell you that if you would like to "strike gold" and get enough for a house, you need to undercut by 1 gil and care at least a little about the market's health. Sure, you can't control other idiots on the board and the markets can be easily crashed but you can at least help by not contributing to it. I'm sure a lot of the crashes that happen are from spiteful people.


But you know, I will undercut by 1 gil. If someone tanks the market, I'll just hold onto the item until the prices go back up (unless it literally takes little effort to get/make that item and I actually don't mind losing the profit). I haven't been denied my profit, just had it put off a bit. No big deal, I'll just list something else. Or, if you've tanked it a ridiculous amount then I'll just do what Rhus said and buy it and resell it getting double the profit with no effort. ....Would you still feel satisfied knowing that you may in some cases double someone's profit with no effort?

Anyway, I guess there isn't much to say if you admit you're just being spiteful and you don't actually care about how healthy the mb is. :I

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Oh believe me, I figured it out a long time ago that if I wanted to properly get somewhere in terms of playing the marketboard for profit, I'd have to devote significantly more time and effort, aswell as changing my pattern on undercutting, so you're very much so preaching to the choir in that regard. For a multitude of reasons however, doing my item listing "properly" is not a option for me, and it's not something I consider necessary either, as I have enough gil to get by in regards to what I spend it on, and dont gather enjoyment outof what, in my head, would be percieved as pure hoarding for the sake of hoarding.

And by all means, I have no doubt that a good number of people I've been competing with on the MB once I got spiteful and just started slowly dropping the price, just withdrew their items and waited for the price to go back up. It is however why in hindsight, it's incorrect of me to focus on garnering enjoyment outof "denying profit", because a more proper wording would be denying or delaying said profit. And I know for a fact some people have bought me out, and then opted to relist both items at the initial price. While in effect yes I did give them "double the profit", dependant on the item, lord knows how long it could take for them to sell both items, especially when, if I'm feeling particularly spitefull and see a competitor buying me out (to then relist at original price) on a item I can craft withouth too much effort, I'll make another, and start the process over again.

But when push comes to shove. No, it's absolutely no skin off my back if someone I'm competing with, buys me out, and then relists and sells the item at the "original" price, because at the end of the day I managed my goal. My item got sold, and for more then it would've if I sold it to a NPC



But you're absolutely right, there's not much else to say in this regard. I'm a spitefull prick, and fundamentaly, I cannot find it in me to truly care about maintaining MB prices, since I know for a fact there's far more people then me who feel the same

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Originally Posted by Lazaruz

If you really want that top spot, as far as I'm concerned, you should be prepared to loose far more money then just 1 gil.

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I'll be blunt. This is a really dumb mentality. By crashing the market you'll lose several times the amount you would had you simply undercut by 1-10 gil back. I just got into a war with someone over the Ao Dai. We both continuously dropped by a single gil, thus keeping the price in the seven figures. Getting to the top of the list is entirely the point of selling in this game because most people blind buy. In fact, you do realize by crashing the market, you're still jumping to the top. You're just foolishly throwing away gil because you've mad... someone didn't undercut you more?

I undercut by way more than 1 gil. Reason? I don't have the time nor do I want to spend the time camping the boards for the lowest price. What's the point of beating a seller by 1 gil when an hour later, he beats me by a gil and keeps selling and replacing his stock. So my goal is to find the point where he doesn't find it worth to sell the item any longer allowing me to make my sale.

In fact I used to undercut so much I'd lose money. That way all other competition would abandon the item, thus allowing me to gouge to my hearts content. Now I don't really play the market anymore, but hope this gives people insight on why some people do strange things on the MB.

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Originally Posted by Lazaruz

But you're absolutely right, there's not much else to say in this regard. I'm a spitefull prick, and fundamentaly, I cannot find it in me to truly care about maintaining MB prices, since I know for a fact there's far more people then me who feel the same

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This is the mentality I think most people have an issue with, myself included. But at least you're being honest...lol I just fail to understand why people wouldn't want to maximize their profits. I get the logic behind huge undercuts, I just disagree with the method.

Here is some perspective from the other side with a little bit of game theory mixed in:

At any given point, the player with the cheapest item is in the most likely position to get the sale, largely due to laziness (people don't want to teleport to the right city and/or don't care about tax) or ignorance (many people don't even know there's a city tax). Suppose you have two players, A and B, undercutting each other but B is either less active or unwilling to update prices as frequently as A. Both players can replace an item immediately after it's sold (you see this in slower markets, namely gear). Because A can keep his price on top almost all the time, A is in position to get all of the sales and therefore 100% of the profits while B gets nothing. From B's perspective, he can't keep up with A in the undercut war, and since B doesn't get any of the money anyways, B has no incentive to preserve A's profits. B's best chance is to drop the price by a large enough margin that a prospective buyer might jump on it thinking it's a good deal. Queue big undercut. Repeat this until price crashes.

It's possible B can make a sale right after a 1 gil cut but depending on the frequency of sales, this can be unlikely if A is a no-lifer sitting in front of the market board checking retainers all day - like many hardcore crafters.

Now, if this big undercut behavior frustrates people as much as this thread indicates, B will also make people leave the markets either in frustration or in search of better opportunities. If B can make A quit, B can reset prices to their original value and hold a monopoly on the market.

This is how we see it. The market board isn't some cooperative game; it's a winner-take-all PvP deathmatch. The one way you can avoid the scenario outlined is to price match, which truly "preserves the health of the market board" by keeping prices static instead of forever falling (even if it's just by 1). Yet, I doubt any of you claiming you're "preserving the health of the market board" really care about that. People undercut for only 1 reason and it's to get the sale. There's no other motive involved.


Note: this argument only works for slow markets, not fast moving ones like materials, leve turn-ins, or whatever, and slow moving markets are the only ones with prices in the millions that allow for huge undercuts like what people are complaining about here.

Edit: Format change because people's reading comprehension is severely lacking.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

At any given point, the player with the cheapest itemThe market board isn't some cooperative game; it's a winner-take-all PvP deathmatch. The one way you can avoid the scenario outlined is to price match, which truly "preserves the health of the market board" by keeping prices static instead of forever falling (even if it's just by 1). Yet, I doubt any of you claiming you're "preserving the health of the market board" really care about that. People undercut for only 1 reason and it's to get the sale. There's no other motive involved.

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Slow or fast markets, it shouldn't matter. Winning smarter is always better. The MB is arguably more competitive than actual PvP, no doubt. But just like PvP, gotta play smart. Getting the most points is the goal of PvP, and getting the most gil should be the goal of the MB imo.

I'll undercut by 1 gil because I respect my fellow crafters and gatherers. At the end of the day we all want to see a profit so keeping the price as stable as possible is in everyone's best interests who crafts and gathers. Feel free to do it right back at me. I ain't got no problem with it. Business is business. The only person who wins when under cutting by massive amounts are the people who only buy stuff from the MB though. When you have a bunch of people doing massive undercuts you essentially kill an items worth on the MB making it worthless as well.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

It's possible B can make a sale right after a normal update but depending on the frequency of sales, this can be unlikely if A is a no-lifer sitting in front of the market board checking retainers all day - like many hardcore crafters. Now, if this behavior frustrates people as much as this thread indicates, B will also make people leave the markets either in frustration or in search of better opportunities. If B can make A quit, B can reset prices to their original value and hold a monopoly on the market.

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The fallacy with this perspective is people often undercut the new price, which is what actually crashes the market. Whenever I don't have time to get into a price war or simply can't be bothered, I just make occasional adjustments and it still sells. Now this doesn't always work, especially if someone floods a market in an attempt to control it, but you can do that right back to them. In the end, no matter what you do, mass undercuts hurts everyone except the buyer. It'll only become worse once they release that stupid phone app that allows price changes without even being logged in.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

Here is some perspective from the other side with a little bit of game theory mixed in:

At any given point, the player with the cheapest item is in the most likely position to get the sale, largely due to laziness (people don't want to teleport to the right city and/or don't care about tax) or ignorance (many people don't even know there's a city tax). Suppose you have two players, A and B, undercutting each other but B is either less active or unwilling to update prices as frequently as A. Both players can replace an item immediately after it's sold (you see this in slower markets, namely gear). Because A can keep his price on top almost all the time, A is in position to get all of the sales and therefore 100% of the profits while B gets nothing. From B's perspective, he can't keep up with A in the undercut war, and since B doesn't get any of the money anyways, B has no incentive to preserve A's profits. B's best chance is to drop the price by a large enough margin that a prospective buyer might jump on it thinking it's a good deal. Queue big undercut. Repeat this until price crashes.

It's possible B can make a sale right after a normal update but depending on the frequency of sales, this can be unlikely if A is a no-lifer sitting in front of the market board checking retainers all day - like many hardcore crafters. Now, if this behavior frustrates people as much as this thread indicates, B will also make people leave the markets either in frustration or in search of better opportunities. If B can make A quit, B can reset prices to their original value and hold a monopoly on the market.

This is how we see it. The market board isn't some cooperative game; it's a winner-take-all PvP deathmatch. The one way you can avoid the scenario outlined is to price match, which truly "preserves the health of the market board" by keeping prices static instead of forever falling (even if it's just by 1). Yet, I doubt any of you claiming you're "preserving the health of the market board" really care about that. People undercut for only 1 reason and it's to get the sale. There's no other motive involved.


Note: this argument only works for slow markets, not fast moving ones like materials, leve turn-ins, or whatever, and slow moving markets are the only ones with prices in the millions that allow for huge undercuts like what people are complaining about here.

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Thank you! Explained it infinetely better then I ever could with my usual rambling :P
Have a like

seeing people undercutting my listings by 1 gil is like seeing this thread getting bumped by 1 reply.

https://t5.rbxcdn.com/1d272e325124c3ea2a67b9dd99d1708a

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Originally Posted by Ransom

No, the most annoying thing is getting an item, seeing all the prices are 200k, putting yours up for 200k, and coming back 4 hours later to find the prices have dropped more than 90%.

A better question: What is going on in the heads of all these idiots who put stuff on MB for LESS THAN A VENDOR WOULD HAVE PAID THEM!

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For me, this screams RMT tactic. They want to create a climate where they can scare people in to buying Gil with inflated markets but they don't want people to make Gil on the inflated markets so prices crash hard when you call them out. It's a game they play to maintain their presence. The only things that should be selling for huge Gil right now are 1 and 2 star 70 related things and 3 and 4 star 50 and 60. 3 and 4 star 50 and 60 because they are gated behind beast tribe exclusive items that require time stamps to get. 70 stuff because it requires multi million melds to even make, in addition to time gated mats. Everything else is either a part of the RMT or plays in to the RMT climate building. It does frustrate me as well. I'd like to make Gil too, just like everyone else but I don't want to accommodate these parasites and I do lose a lot of time to them.

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What is going on in the heads of all these idiots who put stuff on MB for LESS THAN A VENDOR WOULD HAVE PAID THEM!

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I do this with craft mats as it helps other crafters out. Npcing the item just removes it from the game and helps no one. Sometimes it's not about the gil.

In other mmo, even if you don't mb pvp your stuffs will still eventually be sold in 2-3 days. Here, if you don't mb pvp hard your stuffs won't even move for a week. That's from Tonberry perspective. You undercut 1 gil, the next guy will undercut 10 gil. The ones below will be spite to undercut 50-100 gil just to be seen on the first. I don't blame others for undercutting as they wanted to get rid of their stuffs and make gil too. I can only blame se for this stupid design.

This is like Wendy's complaining that McDonald's is having a 1 dollar drink sale.

If someone attempts to do this I undercut in small bursts to get them to lower their prices to the point I can buy up their stock and relist it at a profit.

Honestly though, the MB needs a listing tax instead of selling tax.

No, the mb needs a total revamp.

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Originally Posted by KatenKyokotsu

In other mmo, even if you don't mb pvp your stuffs will still eventually be sold in 2-3 days. Here, if you don't mb pvp hard your stuffs won't even move for a week. That's from Tonberry perspective. You undercut 1 gil, the next guy will undercut 10 gil. The ones below will be spite to undercut 50-100 gil just to be seen on the first. I don't blame others for undercutting as they wanted to get rid of their stuffs and make gil too. I can only blame se for this stupid design.

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What is stupid exactly on the design? in Wow I had to undercut as well and in wow the prices were even worse, with ppl selling the end product a lot cheaper than the price of the materials.

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Originally Posted by Legewiel

What is stupid exactly on the design? in Wow I had to undercut as well and in wow the prices were even worse, with ppl selling the end product a lot cheaper than the price of the materials.

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It lends itself to people aimlessly going back and forth undercutting each other by 1gil just to stay on top, there is no cost for doing so.

By charging a tax to list it, as opposed to sell, would vastly change the Market place

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Originally Posted by Sarevok_Thordin

It lends itself to people aimlessly going back and forth undercutting each other by 1gil just to stay on top, there is no cost for doing so.

By charging a tax to list it, as opposed to sell, would vastly change the Market place

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I really hope they doesn't do that, it would be annoying to start losing money without not being sure if you're going to sell that product or not. I hated that in wow.
And plus the "pvp" on market board is fun <3

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Originally Posted by Legewiel

I really hope they doesn't do that, it would be annoying to start losing money without not being sure if you're going to sell that product or not. I hated that in wow.
And plus the "pvp" on market board is fun <3

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It works just fine on Guild Wars 2, the only "pvp" comes from buy orders as people offer more and more for players wanting to insta sell their goods as opposed to listing for a price.

Listing for a price of course carrying the tax, which prevents endless warring going on there.

Default sort order by update_at timestamp. The item longest on the MB is always #1, if you update your price you go to the back of the line so you don't move up in the list. If there are already more items for sale then can be shown, doesn't matter what price you put it up for, nobody is going to see it until enough in front of sell. Sort options expanded to include HQ only, NQ only, Current City only.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

At any given point, the player with the cheapest item is in the most likely position to get the sale, largely due to laziness (people don't want to teleport to the right city and/or don't care about tax) or ignorance (many people don't even know there's a city tax).

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That is only the case when quantity is not a factor. Someone with 10 items at half the cost is still more expensive if you only need one or a few. It will apply somewhat to high cost single piece items but I think most people aren't going to be enticed to buy just because the is a 1-100 gill difference on a 500K gill item (at least I'm not).

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Originally Posted by Altena

I personally undercut by the approximate tax price.
1g undercuts are rather pointless. You are basically banking on the item being inthe same region as the retainer you're undercutting, and/or the same region the player is buying from, or the player who is buying is oblivious to the tax system.

Undercutting by the rough tax amount does a few things - it opens your item up to be a higher priority in all regions to those who actually know how the tax system works and it also puts your item at the top of the list for those that are oblivious to taxes or are in the same region as your retainer. Finally it doesn't completely tank the price because tax is a small percentage of the item value..

Huge undercuts are unnecessary though, unless the item itself is just flat out overpriced to begin with and is stagnant.

However if undercuts get you salty, then you shouldn't be in the crafting business. Because it's going to happen - in every game and every market where prices are visible. Just have to accept the fact that people are going to undercut you - by 1g or 100k gil.. It happens. Just learn to adjust the items you focus on.

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I tested this with different retainers and so on, people buy the first listed, higher tax 90% of the time (really large amount) it is rare to see people paying attention to where the seller is and paying less overall.

Though logic tells me people do on very high priced items, they may just teleport to the cheapest listed, I am not sure. I am not motivated enough to make large investments in a poor econ system like ffxiv's is. Reason being is I do not want to have a big loss when someone crashes an item.

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

I don't mind 1 gil, that makes sense, because it puts your item at the top of the board. But F#%$ the people that tank the prices into the ground.

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There are those rare occasions though where tanking prices is a necessity. In particular, I'm referring to material costs of certain frequently consumed high demand goods, like low level mats. 8-10K for one Effervescent Water tends to not sell well at all...

If you are a career merchant like I am.. then yes, undercutting by 1 gil is perfectly fine. Its the rewards from ACTIVELY checking the MB and your stock. If others cant do that... oh well. No offense, but Im out to see my stock sell 1st. I dont need to "crash" the market like this post would suggest to undercut by MORE then 1 gil.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

I tested this with different retainers and so on, people buy the first listed, higher tax 90% of the time (really large amount) it is rare to see people paying attention to where the seller is and paying less overall.

Though logic tells me people do on very high priced items, they may just teleport to the cheapest listed, I am not sure. I am not motivated enough to make large investments in a poor econ system like ffxiv's is. Reason being is I do not want to have a big loss when someone crashes an item.

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I might be in the minority, but who knows, but I will always teleport to wherever the cheapest option is to buy an expensive item (aka something in the millions of gil). If it's something like a glamour prism I'll just snag the cheapest I see most of the time regardless of the item location.

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Originally Posted by Sarevok_Thordin

It lends itself to people aimlessly going back and forth undercutting each other by 1gil just to stay on top, there is no cost for doing so.

By charging a tax to list it, as opposed to sell, would vastly change the Market place

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That will only lead to larger undercuts. Instead, people will just subtract the tax, plummeting the price markets more than has already happened. If the devs want to stop undercutting, they need a system similar to FFXI, where it's more like an auction. You can't see what list prices are just sale history. Buyers put up their best offer and are asked to increase it if no items are listed at or below their initial price.