Did you know not performing as you think another player should in a group

You reminded me of another incident where my party had to kick someone. I was running Dusk Vigil with a friend who was leveling a new tank, myself as healer, and another friend as dps. The fourth party member was dogging me to dps despite the fact that the tank was undergeared (and either a warrior or dark knight, he was squishy af). Even though I explained that a focus on dps would possibly end in wipes and I wanted to focus on support, he still bugged me until halfway through the dungeon, he says "Well it's too bad you can't kick me, I'm going to bug you the whole dungeon." Well, guess what?

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

I wonder where OP went...

https://i.imgur.com/oiaSNUs.png

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Not everyone has the time and willpower to debate with every single person who disagrees with him for 6 hours straight.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Insisting on doing something opposite of what 2+ people in the party are asking you to do is harassment. Easily.Now your title is a big ambiguous; there's a difference between "performing as you think" and "acting as you think". You can't legitimately kick someone for low dps (blah blah parsing is bad, don't talk about it etc). But that's different than saying "hey we're fighting 4+ mobs at once, you should be using your aoe rotation". If they're willfully using the wrong skills for the situation they're willfully making your run longer, and that's the core of what harassment is.



I keep seeing this idea pop up, so gonna bold a correction here:

You need 2 votes to kick someone, and that's counting the person initiating it. You do not need 3 people to agree to kick someone from a 4-man dungeon. Same goes for 8-mans: 4 votes needed, again including the initiator. So in 4-man, 2 people can vote no and it still goes through. In 8-man, 4 people can vote no and it still goes through.

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I had this happen before but say 5/8 people insist of doing a fight wrong, that leads to a wipe every time, how is the one person not in the premade harassing them in telling them how it is done, but the premade wants to keep failing? So you kick the one person trying to things properly on the grounds of harassment just because it goes against the majority?

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

I wonder where OP went...

https://i.imgur.com/oiaSNUs.png

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I dunno but I laughed for like 30 minutes at this XDDDDDD.

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

I remember the old days when I first started playing MMOs. People would take there time. They would talk. It was a social event. It was an adventure. I go into PUGs now. Nobody says a word to anyone as the entire group speedruns the dungeon. I sure miss those old days playing Everyquest and WOW when it first came out of 2006. Those where the MMO heyday. Now nobody says a word to you and most people ar enot helpful and will kick you out of the group at the slightest provocation. However I have met some nice people in groups so I am not saying everybody is that way. But it seems the majority are.

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I'm kinda with you. I love XIV and don't need all aspects of classic MMOs, but this is an apt image to compare modern MMOs to the old ones:

http://images.mmorpg.com/images/gall...3c7dacc7be.jpg

I never expect ppl from DF to do awesome job.
As long as they know the basics and can perform at least mediocre or even lower than mediocre.It's fine FOR ME.
Ice mage,Full-thrust dragoon, Spam ruins SMN,i won't vote them but if other member want to kick them then I'll go with yes.
well,I'm not the one to start vote kick though.

People keep putting on their rose-colored glasses about how we used to be so friendly, and take our time, and so on and so forth but they're forgetting one VERY important detail. In those older MMOs, you lived and died by your reputation. Even if we "took our time", if you didn't do your role right, you were replaced. Failed as a puller? Replaced. Broke CCs? Replaced. And then the server would know that you were terrible, and you'd end up struggling to find a group. Back in those days, a Blacklist was more than just a place to stick gil sellers. With the advent of an automatic group finder, we no longer have the luxury of being able to shun the dregs of the community. We're forced into every piece of content with them, the instant we hit that join button, unless we bring a full group, which, to nobody's surprise, a lot of people do. Our mentality hasn't changed, only the way we access our content has. But, because of those changes, players no longer feel responsible for their own actions. No more, does a player have to perform to basic expectations. They can AFK, and autoattack, and what happens? They just find another group. And another. And another. And all we have to defend against that sort of toxic mentality is the vote kick button, and even that has more limitations than it really should.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

I keep seeing this idea pop up, so gonna bold a correction here:

You need 2 votes to kick someone, and that's counting the person initiating it. You do not need 3 people to agree to kick someone from a 4-man dungeon. Same goes for 8-mans: 4 votes needed, again including the initiator. So in 4-man, 2 people 1 person can vote no and it still goes through. In 8-man, 4 people 3 people can vote no and it still goes through.

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The person up for dismissal doesn't even see the vote happening, let alone get to participate in the vote. Assuming the members of the party who queued together vote in agreement, they'd still need 3/4 or 5/8 members preformed in order for the group to have uncontestable kick control (or kicktatorship, if you will).

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Originally Posted by Friske

Not everyone has the time and willpower to debate with every single person who disagrees with him for 6 hours straight.

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Post count plays a part too...

Wnen it comes to the Duty Finder, I always keep this in mind:

- Expect the worst, hope for the best when playing with randoms.

- If someone is underpreforming, tell them, give them tips on how they can improve. If they wont do this, then either ignore and finish the dungeon or kick them out.

Fun is subjective. Jusr, because someone likes to play as Ice Mage or Thunder Mage (never seen this before, like wtf?), does not mean that their idea of fun should ruin my idea (which is to not carry slackers) of fun. If someone gets kicked, this means that majority of the group agrees that you need to leave.

System works.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

- If someone is underpreforming, tell them, give them tips on how they can improve. If they wont do this, then either ignore and finish the dungeon or kick them out.

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Or just leave them alone maybe?
Unless they intentionally do some very questionable stuff like goint into 70 content in 60 lvl gear, who cares if people there underperforming. If you want your idea of "fun" being forced on others, there's is party finder where all specific moments like "top dps, 2 fail kick" can be explained beforehand.

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Originally Posted by Gwaeron89

Or just leave them alone maybe?
Unless they intentionally do some very questionable stuff like goint into 70 content in 60 lvl gear, who cares if people there underperforming. If you want your idea of "fun" being forced on others, there's is party finder where all specific moments like "top dps, 2 fail kick" can be explained beforehand.

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If the underpreformer is oke with casting ice magick only and in turn slowing the rest of the group, then they will be kicked. Their idea of fun does not overpower mine and mine does not overpower theirs, but if the majority of the group agrees with me, then its goodbye!

If an underpreformer wants to underpreform and slow the group, then they too can go make a group via the party finder and enjoy their moments.

Incoming wall of text. Meant to reply to some of this stuff earlier, but got caught up with stuff and forgot about it. :v

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

If its a PUG group formed through the duty finder. It is there to help new players going through the story find groups to complete that content. That is its purpose. Why do you think the reward is so massive . I get almost a full level for doing just 1 dungeon. It is motivation to do that content.You get a massive reward and then you expect to punish the people that make that reward possible. New players. If you want groups where everybody knows exactly what they are doing and have been in the dungeon and know it like the back of there hand. Don't do roulettes. You are kicking people for being new in a place that is created for new people. What a giant contradiction.

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I just want to point out, with regards to Destatiredux's example, he was talking about a Level 70 dungeon (Temple of the Fist). People should not be teaching the very basics of a job to someone who is at endgame. The rotation of using Fire spells until you don't have enough MP for any more, switching to Blizzard until full MP, and then switching back to Fire spells is the foundation of a BLM's rotation and extremely basic, not spamming Thunder on mobs. People should not be having to teach that to BLM's that are running level 70 Expert Roulette dungeons. And this goes for any job as well. It's a little different if they had been telling him how to use newer Stormblood skills, or fitting together a more optimal rotation for level 70 using said level 70 skills, but not for what Destatiredux pointed out. When a BLM reaches level 70, they should most definitely know how counterproductive it is to spam a single spell such as Thunder or Blizzard (though this is sadly not the case with quite a few of them, and really, a BLM should know by level 10 not to just spam a singular spell). Doesn't help that the BLM in question sounded like they responded with hostility when questioned why they were just spamming Thunder spells and not touching fire or ice spells. Hostility makes it less likely people will want to help someone, since the person in question probably wouldn't listen to the advice given anyways.

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

I imagine there is more to it than that. People tend to exaggerate the circumstances of things to make them self look in the right. Thats human nature. I never take either sides account as total truth.

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And that's fine, but you still seem relatively new to this game, and it is surprising the amount of players you will meet in endgame content (and I'm not talking about just Expert Roulette dungeons, but Savage and Ex primals as well) that don't know the basics of their job and, quite frankly, don't really care to learn. There are, sadly, individuals out there that are perfectly okay with performing sub-optimally, and allowing the other 3/7/23 people in their party/raid/alliance carry them while they do next to nothing. I honestly don't have any trouble believing the Thunder Mage story because it's already common enough seeing Ice Mages, or poor DPS that don't want to AOE large trash packs, don't use the very basic self-buffs of their jobs (looking at you, DRGs that don't use Heavy Thrust or BRDs that don't upkeep Straight Shot), etc.. Which is an extremely sad state of affairs, but if people aren't willing to listen to advice or constructive criticism and willingly improve, then there isn't anything that can be done about it.

I'm all for helping people and extending advice on how to play jobs that I know inside and out optimally, or how to do a certain fight/handle certain mechanics, but I won't waste my breath on an individual that is reluctant to even listen, and reluctant to learn. And I most certainly won't waste my breath on people who are rude for no reason when you're trying to help them.

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

Who is defending it I am simply saying there is no way to verify that the guy never casted any other spell. Or whether this guy is being completely honest about his story of this person. And if the group never wiped because of it. It simply doesn't matter anyway. DO you know every single spell that every single member in an 8 man group casts. Or even a 4 man. Are you that aware of what every single person is doing every single second. I doubt it.

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It's actually very easy to pay attention to individual's rotations in a duty. When I notice that things are taking longer than they should to die, I start looking at the DPS in the party and see what they're doing wrong. Example: tank does the huge first pull in one of the level 70 endgame dungeons, and they're taking an extremely long time to die, even though I am AOEing my heart out. Glance over at the DPS and see them sitting at full TP (melee/physical ranged) or full MP (casters), then I can very easily tell that they are single-targeting, and not using their AOE combos to make things go down faster. Zeroing in on the cast bars in the party list isn't exactly difficult to do either, for those who are casters (I have a tendency to watch other RDMs that I run with to see if they actually use Scatter for large pulls--quite a few of them continue to just single target Ver spell things).

It isn't always about "Well, we didn't wipe, so it's okay." I honestly dislike this mentality, because just because a party didn't wipe doesn't mean that it makes suboptimal play or behavior right. I could queue into an 8-man raid or Ex trial on my AST, and proceed to strictly DPS only, not help heal, not help raise, not draw cards, etc.. But just because my party does not wipe does not mean that my play was optimal or considerate to the group, especially the other healer. These parties and duties are team efforts, and if a player isn't willing to play in such a way that is beneficial to their team, then they don't have any place in that party.



With regards to Vote Dismissing, majority rules in a party. If you (using general "you" here), were kicked from a 4-man party, at least 1 other person aside from the individual initiating the kick agreed that kicking you was a viable option. If you were kicked from an 8-man party (be it from an 8-man raid or a 24-man alliance raid), then at least 3 other people decided you were a burden to the group. This logic also applies to speedrunning versus taking it slow: if the majority of the party are in agreement that one or the other is what they want to do, and there is 1 person who is reluctant to do what the majority want, unless that person is someone who is completely new to the dungeon (new tank or new healer, since new DPS don't have as much responsibility compared to those two roles with regards to the flow of a dungeon), majority decides. If the majority decides to kick the reluctant player, then it's not an abuse of the Vote Dismiss feature.

The only time I consider a Vote Dismiss abuse is if there is conspiracy by a pre-made to kick a player just because they can do so. I do not consider 3 people deciding to kick a sub-optimal player that is reluctant to listen to advice, reluctant to improve, and responding with nothing but hostility an abuse of the feature.

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Originally Posted by Gwaeron89

If you want your idea of "fun" being forced on others, there's is party finder where all specific moments like "top dps, 2 fail kick" can be explained beforehand.

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This is hypocritical since the person under performing is forcing their "I don't care to play properly 'fun'" on others anyway. Why is he exempt?

You cannot use these type of arguments for this stuff at all because of pure hypocrisy.

If one person is allowed to play however they want then everyone else can too; which includes possibly telling someone they are doing things wrong or offering tips or even using the vote kick.

Person A: "It's my sub I play how I want"
Person B: "Okay, it is also MY sub too, I'll vote kick who I want"
Person C: "I agree with B, sorry, but goodbye A"

It's fair and equal treatment. Person A can play however they want, but so can Person B and Person C.

If you want to do whatever you want, ignoring the rest of the people in your group, then be aware the rest of the people in your group can also give you the same treatment back.

I rarely kick people, but this is just the simple truth of the matter.

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Originally Posted by xJimmehx

I said i think youre all wrong. I dont really need to dismiss any points. I dont know what your comment is even about because you erased my quote and replaced it with "snip." It doesnt really matter though. I disregarded everything you said the moment you wrote "people like you." I stated that i think everyone is wrong for thinking they have a right to "expect" anything at all from others(beyond intentional griefing obviously). I still stand by that 100%. If people cant deal with difference in personality and playstyle, why are they playing an mmo in the first place? At the very least they should be using party finder so they dont have to get in a queue with somebody else who has been waiting for a likely 20 minutes to join only to kick them.

Edit: If they were griefing its one thing but I dont agree with kicking somebody for being stupid/ignorant/inexperienced or inefficient. Its duty finder. Not end game raiding. As I've stated in the past, I think its weird that people expect thousands of people in an online game to all act exactly the same. The most beautiful thing about us is how different we all are.

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When I do anything in this game, I expect people to at least act with some shred of common courtesy. The mentality of "it's my sub and I'll play how I want; I don't care about the other 3/7/23 people I'm grouped with" is not courteous at all. It is fine for people to all want to play differently, act differently, etc.. But when you are running content with a team, you need to act like a team player. Thunder-spamming BLMs making runs last longer just because they want to play that way and don't care about the time of the other people in the group is not being a team player. And if 3 other people are in agreement that they don't want to deal with such behavior, they are allowed to vote dismiss Thunder Mage.

The Party Finder reasoning also goes both ways: if someone wants to run Expert Roulette spamming only one spell, not AOEing large trash packs, or generally just not wanting to play in such a way to make the run fast, smooth, and efficient, then they are also free to recruit other players that don't care to carry them.

"Casual" content or "hardcore" content, both points I make still stand. Be courteous regardless of the situation; be a team player. If you want to play a certain way, you are free to use DF and risk not meeting the expectations of the majority of a group, or you are free to use PF to find other like-minded people. That goes for everyone.

http://i.imgur.com/fAUOr2c.png

I find helpful people PUGs 99 percent of the time. And the ONLY time ive seen anyone kicked from a dungeon is when they REFUSE to play their role or they continue to do dumb stuff that causes wipes.

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Originally Posted by Khaidal

http://i.imgur.com/fAUOr2c.png

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Lmfao. Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

The person up for dismissal doesn't even see the vote happening, let alone get to participate in the vote. Assuming the members of the party who queued together vote in agreement, they'd still need 3/4 or 5/8 members preformed in order for the group to have uncontestable kick control (or kicktatorship, if you will).

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Nope it is 2 or 4, so a pair can kick out someone in 4s for example.

So when you have 2 pairs together, it is whoever gets the vote up first wins, if they are in conflict.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I just want to point out, with regards to Destatiredux's example, he was talking about a Level 70 dungeon (Temple of the Fist).

...

It's actually very easy to pay attention to individual's rotations in a duty.

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I'd also like to point out that Destatiredux's example simply said "Rhalgr's", as though everyone playing the game immediately understood that it was one of the two level 70 'extreme' dungeon instances. A little bit more background would have meant fewer followup posts.

To your point about rotations, it may be easy for you to pay attention, but that does not mean it is easy for everyone. Personally, I have more than enough to do with my rotation and efforts to avoid the instance mechanics.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I'd also like to point out that Destatiredux's example simply said "Rhalgr's", as though everyone playing the game immediately understood that it was one of the two level 70 'extreme' dungeon instances. A little bit more background would have meant fewer followup posts.

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His initial post about the BLM also mentioned that the BLM was level 70. Regardless of the content, a level 70 BLM should still have a basic understanding of the most basic aspects of their rotation. My point in response to the OP was countering where he was saying we are supposed to help new players learn. and shouldn't kick "new players" from content "designed for them to learn." A level 70 BLM may be a fresh 70, but they aren't a "new player," and, as I said to the OP, they should have an understanding of the most basic aspects of their rotation.

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To your point about rotations, it may be easy for you to pay attention, but that does not mean it is easy for everyone. Personally, I have more than enough to do with my rotation and efforts to avoid the instance mechanics.

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Even so, there are still things such as DoTs or debuffs that some jobs need to utilize (and should be utilizing), and that can be easily seen on mobs. I always notice when DRGs fail to upkeep Disembowel, or when SMNs don't DoT/Bane mobs, in part because I am watching my own DoT timers on mobs to know if/when to refresh them. Barring all of that, there are still in-game battle logs. While it's not possible to completely examine another player's rotation outside of using third-party software, things such as DoTs/debuffs and even just AOEing when they should be are easy enough to notice without examining with a microscope.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

His initial post about the BLM also mentioned that the BLM was level 70. Regardless of the content, a level 70 BLM should still have a basic understanding of the most basic aspects of their rotation. My point in response to the OP was countering where he was saying we are supposedto help new players learn. and shouldn't kick "new players" from content "designed for them to learn." A level 70 BLM may be a fresh 70, but they aren't a "new player," and, as I said to the OP, they should have an understanding of the most basic aspects of their rotation.



Even so, there are still things such as DoTs or debuffs that some jobs need to utilize (and should be utilizing), and that can be easily seen on mobs. I always notice when DRGs fail to upkeep Disembowel, or when SMNs don't DoT/Bane mobs, in part because I am watching my own DoT timers on mobs to know if/when to refresh them. Barring all of that, there are still in-game battle logs. While it's not possible to completely examine another player's rotation outside of using third-party software, things such as DoTs/debuffs and even just AOEing when they should be are easy enough to notice without examining with a microscope.

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Someone at lv 70 may very well be new, I seen a new lv 70 healer that could not handle co healing in delta normal. I think it is the side effect of giving out exp too fast. You are right, people at 70 should know their jobs, but there is plenty that do not, especially those that only have 1 job at 70 with nothing else played. I also seen a blizzard III> fire I >blizzard III.. etc blm who pulled 700 ish dps by the time delta 4.0 normal was over, they started out at around 1.6k or so but kept dying along with the bad rotations ended up at 700 dps.

You can be 70 in a couple of weeks. You can buy a potion that makes you 60 from the very beginning. Being 70 does not mean you know your job.

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

You can be 70 in a couple of weeks. You can buy a potion that makes you 60 from the very beginning. Being 70 does not mean you know your job.

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It doesn't change the fact that at 70 you should know the basics of your job. If that BLM wanted to be dot mage, he should have rolled SMN.

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

You can be 70 in a couple of weeks. You can buy a potion that makes you 60 from the very beginning. Being 70 does not mean you know your job.

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When you buy a job skip potion, upon using it, the game literally tells you that you are still responsible for learning how to play the job correctly (i.e., reading your skills, asking/accepting advice, etc.). Friend jumped one of his alts up and said upon logging back in, there was a pop-up stating as such. I understand that there are a lot of lazy people out there unwilling to learn, but that doesn't make it acceptable group play to willingly be bad, which is what it sounds like that BLM was doing. Chances are that this BLM probably wasn't even a potion user; they were just bad. There are no excuses for that. Sorry, but that's my opinion.

The fact that you are defending bad play boggles my mind. There is a huge difference between someone being a low-level player completely new to a game and still figuring out how their rotation/job works, and someone rolling a job in a Level 70 dungeon and choosing to be a Thunder Mage just "because."

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

If its a PUG group formed through the duty finder. It is there to help new players going through the story find groups to complete that content. That is its purpose. Why do you think the reward is so massive . I get almost a full level for doing just 1 dungeon. It is motivation to do that content.You get a massive reward and then you expect to punish the people that make that reward possible. New players. If you want groups where everybody knows exactly what they are doing and have been in the dungeon and know it like the back of there hand. Don't do roulettes. You are kicking people for being new in a place that is created for new people. What a giant contradiction.

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For the third time, today. No, that is not what Duty Finder is for. It exists solely as a means for people to queue into content. How they progress is entirely at their own discretion. The rewards are massive because no one would do it otherwise. I hate Leveling Roulette since I'll more likely end up with Copperbell than Doma Castle. If the rewards for completion weren't high enough, people would either leave immediately or not queue to begin with. If you want to explore and proceed through the dungeon at a leisurely pace, by all means, go ahead. If the three other players don't, you either adapt or don't complain when they boot you for slowing them down.

This thread is kind of depressing. The fact that people have to argue for the idea of blatancy over 11 pages is astounding and perhaps a little upsetting. Even if his story about the Thunder Mage wasn't true, its value as a hypothetical would still be there but still the Hug Party is insistent on making sure blatant disruption isn't thwarted and "feelings" aren't hurt- all the while chalking it up to how "New Age MMO's are nothin' like me being OOOOLD SCHOOOOL with my table tops and infant MMO's." What are you even trying to accomplish with that?

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I'd also like to point out that Destatiredux's example simply said "Rhalgr's", as though everyone playing the game immediately understood that it was one of the two level 70 'extreme' dungeon instances. A little bit more background would have meant fewer followup posts.

To your point about rotations, it may be easy for you to pay attention, but that does not mean it is easy for everyone. Personally, I have more than enough to do with my rotation and efforts to avoid the instance mechanics.

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You're entirely correct, and I apologize for the confusion. I refer to it as Rhalgr's because for some reason I always think of it as "Rhalgr's Fist" because of its location and I can never seem to remember the true name. I'd suppose I could try to remember it by thinking of the Temple of Doom if I didn't already associate that with Bardem's XD

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

When you buy a job skip potion..."

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This. Many times this. Jump potions are a means to be able to "jump" to where your friends are currently at in the story if you are a new player. It should not be an excuse to not know the workings of your job, and the game tells you as such. Even if you're jumping in by yourself, with no friends, the game provides many resources for discovering how your job works- this is why the novice network, the hall of the novice, training dummies scattered throughout the realm, and even palace of the dead (to some degree) exist.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Snip

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You are both correct to an extent. Duty Finder is a means to access content for ALL players, not just new people. Likewise, Duty Roulettes were made as a separate function of the Duty Finder to ensure that veterans return to help new or returning players with content new to them while earning rewards. However, this is not the case for the Expert Roulette, which was made less as a function to help players new to that content and more to help veterans grind for tomes and gear. This is why the Expert Roulette only rolls the three most recent endgame dungeons, as most players who have reached level 70 (and who should know their job) have already cleared this content. This distinction is what the OP needs to realize when we say the BLM was not new (arguments of why a level 70 doesn't know his job notwithstanding) and perhaps the OP doesn't know that because he hasn't reached current endgame content to even know what the Expert Roulette is.

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

You can be 70 in a couple of weeks. You can buy a potion that makes you 60 from the very beginning. Being 70 does not mean you know your job.

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But this game doesn't work like WoW, you can't just go into any content you like once you hit 70 because FFXIV gates everything behind the MSQ and ilevel. The Expert Roulette is only accessible after you fulfill a lot of conditions. You must reach max level on at least one job AND completely finish the current MSQ and stay current. Then you have to unlock each dungeon and run it successfully, and only after that will the game allow you to queue into Expert. Then, only players that stay ahead get to keep using it because every time a new patch drops with more MSQ quests it also releases new dungeons that are now the Expert. The previous dungeons that were part of Expert are moved to another roulette. To re-unlock Expert Roulette these players must AGAIN complete the new Main Story Quests, unlock the new dungeons and complete them at least once, before being allowed to queue back into Expert. Additionally, the final MSQ trial and the Expert Roulette both have a minimum ilevel gear requirement of 280, something a brand new level 70 player won't be able to reach without doing all their job quests up to 70.

My point being, there is no way someone could be in Expert, especially Temple of the Fist (which isn't even unlockable by itself until 4.0 MSQ is completely done) without having been made to play their job at a minimum level of competence in both group and solo content. That Black Mage was trolling.

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Originally Posted by missybee

You can think it is rude until you are blue in the face, but at the end of the day, vote kicks are a democratic process.

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It's a democratic process that never requires more than 50% approval from the group. It's deeply flawed.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It's a democratic process that never requires more than 50% approval from the group. It's deeply flawed.

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I would venture if half of the people in a given group want someone removed, more often than not, vote dismiss is working as intended™.

Are there going to be instances of vote kick abuse? Of course!

It's far from perfect, but I think half the party is a good enough metric.

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Originally Posted by missybee

I would venture if half of the people in a given group want someone removed, more often than not, vote dismiss is working as intended™.

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Democracy is not "half", it's "more than half". "2 out of 4" and "4 out of 8" are not the majority.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It's a democratic process that never requires more than 50% approval from the group. It's deeply flawed.

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Since you can't vote for or against your own dismissal it's actually 2/3 or 4/7. Not 50%

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Originally Posted by AngeloFlick

Since you can't vote for or against your own dismissal it's actually 2/3 or 4/7. Not 50%

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Your voice is just an automatic "no". Like the one initiating the kick is an automatic "yes". You can't call it democratic is you prevent one person from "voicing" his/her opinion.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Democracy is not "half", it's "more than half". "2 out of 4" and "4 out of 8" are not the majority.

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The game rightly doesn't count the person being subject to kick. Thus it is 2/3 (66.6...%) and 4/7 (57.14285714285714%). Think of it like a jury. The defendent (in this case the person being subject to a motion for dismissal), is never part of that jury. There's better examples I'm sure but that is what came off the top of my head.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

The defendent (in this case the person being subject to a motion for dismissal), is never part of that jury.

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Nor is the plaintiff (in this case, the person initiating the kick).

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Democracy is not "half", it's "more than half". "2 out of 4" and "4 out of 8" are not the majority.

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Originally Posted by AngeloFlick

Since you can't vote for or against your own dismissal it's actually 2/3 or 4/7. Not 50%

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That sounds more or less like a majority vote to me?

I kind of don't really see what the big to-do about it is at any rate. If you have a pulse, you hit a few buttons, you occasionally do mechanics, and don't act like a complete anus, you are very unlikely to get kicked. As aforementioned, abuse does happen, but it is the exception rather than the rule.

...and you have to at least entertain the notion that if a given person is getting kicked SUPER often, maybe it isn't abuse?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Your voice is just an automatic "no". Like the one initiating the kick is an automatic "yes". You can't call it democratic is you prevent one person from "voicing" his/her opinion.

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Considering parties are either 4 people or 8 people, if you were to be given an option regarding your own dismissal, most people are going to, of course, vote "No! I don't want to be dismissed!" Considering this, your "automatic no" rather than be given an option/"counting vote" is to prevent stalemates--which would ultimately render the vote dismiss feature worthless in a lot of 4-man settings if one other person (aside from yourself) voted no. The person who initiates the kick is going to be voted as a "yes" by any and all logical stand points: they want you dismissed, so it makes sense that their vote is a yes, and it makes sense that it is considered. Thus, the 2/3 and 4/7 votes primarily considered is still "majority rules."

If the devs were to do as you suggest by not counting the vote of the kick initiator and the chosen to be dismissed (going off of your plaintiff/defendant example above), parties would have to consist of an odd number of participants in order to prevent stalemates and ties when doing vote dismisses. And since that seems unlikely, the current system is, more or less, working as intended.