After years of playing Summoner, I'm shelving the job and here's why.

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Originally Posted by Schondetta

I appreciate you trying to keep it real but just ignore this player. I reported them for there rude posts the best we can do is ignore them and move on and carry the topic at hand.

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@angry_evil

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Originally Posted by Gallus

6 - SMN in 4.0 is too simple! We are ruin mages I'm getting bored make this harder SE! /SMN is too hard SE! There's too much difference between good SMNs and bad SMNs check fflogs!

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I also have to agree that I'm embarrassed to be part of the summoner community as they continue to be the biggest bunch of sorry whine asses. The disparity in fflogs is simple proof that there are people who actually understood that this expansion was about CHANGE in battle design and accepted that fact and learned to play their class. And then there is the rest of the people who rather just come to the forum and moan because they can't kill the SSS dummies and immediately say the class is broken without trying to understand what they are doing wrong.


Really guys the class is not harder to play, it's more complex than before but that makes it more fun imo. And planning your burst phases around mechanics just means you have to learn the fights.

Maybe it's just me but I honestly don't want my class to be faceroll easy. Leave my class alone.

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Originally Posted by Zetsumei_Tsunarashi

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Really guys the class is not harder to play, it's more complex than before but that makes it more fun imo. And planning your burst phases around mechanics just means you have to learn the fights.

Maybe it's just me but I honestly don't want my class to be faceroll easy. Leave my class alone.

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Right, because I love to do so much work for sub par dps/s

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Originally Posted by paradigmfellow

Right, because I love to do so much work for sub par dps/s

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I mean, Eirene's detailed post shows it's so much work for Samurai quality levels of damage so...

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I mean, Eirene's detailed post shows it's so much work for Samurai quality levels of damage so...

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Have you seen the discrepancies between SMNs and SAM in FFlogs? You can work your butt off with SAM and it feels rewarding. You work your but off with SMN and you have to pray to god that you don't eff up once and hope you are not dead last.

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Originally Posted by Zetsumei_Tsunarashi

Really guys the class is not harder to play, it's more complex than before but that makes it more fun imo. And planning your burst phases around mechanics just means you have to learn the fights.

Maybe it's just me but I honestly don't want my class to be faceroll easy. Leave my class alone.

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Show your 4k parses if it's so easy...
It's also not really more complex but more annoying.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I mean, Eirene's detailed post shows it's so much work for Samurai quality levels of damage so...

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There's no samurai quality levels of damage for summoners...

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Originally Posted by Angry_Evil

Show your 4k parses if it's so easy...

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I was hoping you caught that.

Hey man, blame the encounters for that, and that doesn't mean the Summoner doesn't need help, but don't go spreading false information.

Are Summoners capable of high damage, yes.

Is it pound for pound for effort, no.

Be (rightfully) indignant all you want, but don't be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Hey man, blame the encounters for that, and that doesn't mean the Summoner doesn't need help, but don't go spreading false information.

Are Summoners capable of high damage, yes.

Is it pound for pound for effort, no.

Be (rightfully) indignant all you want, but don't be wrong.

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Encounters? What are you getting info about SMN dmg from SSS DUMMY videos or something?

PS
Eirene SNow's guide is good, but it actually made me realize how poorly designed 4.0 smn is lol...
And even he can't reach SAM levels of dps

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Originally Posted by Angry_Evil

Encounters? What are you getting info about SMN dmg from SSS DUMMY videos or something?

PS
Eirene SNow's guide is good, but it actually made me realize how poorly designed 4.0 smn is lol...
And even he can't reach SAM levels of dps

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Yes, the encounters matter in determining a class's "FFLOGs dps". Being capable and being allowed to do the damage your class has the potential to is the problem.

Remember back in 3.0 when Warriors were proclaimed 'OVerpowered DPS'? What were the encounters people were drawing from? Ravana and Bismarck, encounters that favored classes who could unload in short duration burst phases. (Warriors)

Summoner -has- the potential to deal more damage than Red Mages, Black Mages, etc, but the effort involved for many simply isn't worth the return, especially if you're fighting against mechanics that cause the very intricate timer-balance you're working for to overlap or be interrupted in any way.

We need to be clear here. I think Summoner needs help as much as anyone else, but make sure the information is correct. Spreading the "Summoner does no damage' argument is wrong, plain and simple. They are -capable- of some of the highest, but rarely are allowed to reach it. "Doing no damage" feedback only leads to potency bonuses, which doesn't help the core problem at all.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Summoner -has- the potential to deal more damage than Red Mages, Black Mages, etc, but the effort involved for many simply isn't worth the return, especially if you're fighting against mechanics that cause the very intricate timer-balance you're working for to overlap or be interrupted in any way.

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I don't see where this is coming from. Show me 4k+ smn dummy parses over 10minutes... BLM can do like 4.6k+

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

We need to be clear here. I think Summoner needs help as much as anyone else, but make sure the information is correct. Spreading the "Summoner does no damage' argument is wrong, plain and simple. They are -capable- of some of the highest, but rarely are allowed to reach it. "Doing no damage" feedback only leads to potency bonuses, which doesn't help the core problem at all.

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Nobody said "summoner does no damage"
I am factually correct tho... And your "they are capable of the highest" is actually wrong. Effort, encounter etc has nothing to do with that...

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Yes, the encounters matter in determining a class's "FFLOGs dps". Being capable and being allowed to do the damage your class has the potential to is the problem.

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Wanted to add about that. Unlike RDM and BLM smn can't really do consistent DPS over long time like 4.6k BLM dummy 10min parses cause of simple reason - we don't have enough mp for r3 spam. Yeah r3 is weaker now but it's still dps increase. On the other hand in actual encounters SMN can show himself better than on the dummy cause of planing, moving, mechanics etc and actually that always was the case. But now smn is much more clunky and boring. And this HORRIBLE feeling that DWT is dps loss... ugh it should not be there >_> should not be like that at all...
Anyway there is no encounter or no encounter(dummy) situation where 4.0 SMN can show "highest" dps except probably SSS dummy but even then other classes probably do more...(and mb actually some aoe pulls with bahamut and aetherflwo ready lol). There's no mystical "potential" and no mystical "encounter" that won't allow SMN to realize this potential...

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Originally Posted by Schondetta

I reported them for there rude posts

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Oh god really?
You didn't report me because I was rude you reported me because I disagreed with many of you.
But really, whatever floats your boat.

OP -- Ugh I'm so sorry to hear you're feeling this way. Same thing happened to me in WoW with my preferred class, one I'd played for close to a decade in raid comps. I think the reasons you've listed are both well thought out as well as emotional which shows me that you're grieving not grief-ing. I hope that the developers can turn it around in time before you are forced to shelf it for good. *hugs*

Hey, did someone break the v4s dummy ?
With ilvl 317 or 318 i wasn't able to do more than 5% :(

I used crit Dh food with crit Dh gear/mat, but not potion

I moved my DPS main from Summoner to Ninja this expansion because of the changes. One of the biggest appeals to me originally was the DoT management, as well as flashing your DoTs with buffs and contagion to get the most out of it. If I wanted to play a burst class I would have rolled black mage to begin with so I don't understand what they're trying to do with the job. If they want to make the job more about the summons well... They probably should make them more responsive lol.

The changes have not been rewarding, that's just the best way to put it. There are many ways they can work on altering the class to make it better, I hope they are thinking it over. Individually dotting and ruin spam is boring. I get the idea behind wanting to change the flow, and I do support that but in doing so it's got to keep some sort of clarity. I figure at best case we'll get a bandaid patch for the bleeding, but overall the class has a ways to go.

All I can say, is I'm glad we got RDM when Stormblood released, because it is fun and rewarding and much less tedious and clunky than smn now feels. I'm a fan of SE, they put a lot of work into the game, but I'm still heartbroken over the new feel of smn.

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Originally Posted by Angry_Evil

Show your 4k parses if it's so easy...
It's also not really more complex but more annoying.


There's no samurai quality levels of damage for summoners...

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It's not 4k but think I prove my point here.

What bothers me the most about all of these SMN complain threads is when people make false blanket statements like this guy, and then people start parroting it and all of a sudden the class is the worst in the game.

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Originally Posted by Angry_Evil

I don't see where this is coming from. Show me 4k+ smn dummy parses over 10minutes... BLM can do like 4.6k+

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First off, this '10 minute parse' fix you're on is a weighted requirement. Summoner will obviously lose here to Black Mage because resources are an issue for the Summoner (Clarity: Because they need to use Ruin 3 liberally. Ruin 1 is a handicap). I might as well ask you to provide a 4.6k 3 minute Black Mage parse but they have to move 30% of the encounter.

Secondly, my mistake. Not 'Samurai quality' damage, but it is definitely not 'sub-par' (Which is what started this whole back and forth from the person I quoted). Every source I can view using FFlogs shows Summoners not only well within range of a majority of the classes, but even coming ahead in a few cases. They are most certainly -on par- and the outliers are, surprise, Samurai and Red Mage.

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Originally Posted by Zetsumei_Tsunarashi

It's not 4k but think I prove my point here.

What bothers me the most about all of these SMN complain threads is when people make false blanket statements like this guy, and then people start parroting it and all of a sudden the class is the worst in the game.

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So, with a 80% perf, you deal 1.75m to the boss. Sure, that's not 90%+ or even orange rating, but it shows that you try.
And then, you have a SAM with a bad 35% perf, who did 1.71m damage. Only 77 DPS lower than you. The amount of effort you have to put to be at 80% perf and only get just a bit higher than a SAM who's not even trying is baffling. You could argue that "SAM is OP" or whatever, but the disparity is so big that it wouldn't make your point completly.

For the 80th percentile on Susano, SMN is just above BRD (and MCH, but we don't talk about them, you can already hear them crying from there). All of the other DPS jobs are above. Even DRG. Yes, even DRG (albeit close). And above DRG, you have BLM, who put SMN down with a 100 DPS difference. Then it continues to rise. And this data is mostly two weeks old. So that was before some job's buffs from 4.05.

You are definitly in the minority.

My biggest problem with 4.0 summoner is that it's just not fun. Instead of a dynamic playstyle I'm checking boxes like a low-level clerk and building up slowly to a climax that feels underwhelming.

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Originally Posted by Zetsumei_Tsunarashi

It's not 4k but think I prove my point here.

What bothers me the most about all of these SMN complain threads is when people make false blanket statements like this guy, and then people start parroting it and all of a sudden the class is the worst in the game.

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Are you kidding me? We're not talking about pathetic 3.3k dps and 30% samurais... This screenshot shows poor player skills and says nothing about what dps SMN can achieve.
(Also I'm pretty sure u can achieve 3.3k+ on susano\lackshimi without firing ruin3 outside DWT once... with new 320-330 gear it should be even easier)
I checked this parse, it's pretty funny. First of all you used painflare 10 times... in susano fight, then you summoned bahamut 4 times and did 27 wyrmwaves which is 7 ww on average, lastly you used dwt 9 times but only used r3+r4 57 times it means you barely fired r3 outside dwt through the whole fight. Also you used ifrit for some reason, does not seem like it really helped your party much. This shows to me that you barely even know how to play 4.0 summoner...

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

First off, this '10 minute parse' fix you're on is a weighted requirement. Summoner will obviously lose here to Black Mage because resources are an issue for the Summoner (Clarity: Because they need to use Ruin 3 liberally. Ruin 1 is a handicap). I might as well ask you to provide a 4.6k 3 minute Black Mage parse but they have to move 30% of the encounter.

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Hm on 3 minutes BLM will probably make around 5k? At least it's achievable, depending on crits and direct hits. Asking BLM to move 30% of the encounter is unreasonable lol. But that's not the point. 4.6k for summoner will be problematic to achieve in any situation imo(without food\potions)(I can show you our 4.5k blm from O1S but fflogs didn't count dps for BLMs properly yet).
I'm asking 10 min parses from you cause you're arguing that encounters prevent summoners from achieving bestest of the best dps. So 10min dummy is encounter where there's no mechanics or anything that can disrupt summoner... So? Show me in what situation summoner has one of the best dps?(I can tell you - lucky 8k burst opener ololol 10s)

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Secondly, my mistake. Not 'Samurai quality' damage, but it is definitely not 'sub-par' (Which is what started this whole back and forth from the person I quoted). Every source I can view using FFlogs shows Summoners not only well within range of a majority of the classes, but even coming ahead in a few cases. They are most certainly -on par- and the outliers are, surprise, Samurai and Red Mage.

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What the hell are you talking about?
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15#

Now that I have RDM at 70, I can truly say that I made the right call on switching to RDM from SMN. RDM is much more rewarding.

I played smn since ARR and the 2 or 3 lv I spent on SB smn bored me to death.
Feel like I lost half my toolkit and just spamming ruin all day.
Not to mention 60-69 seems more or less the same with no new skill thats not a trait or upgrade.

I love the new summoner changes. They take time to get used to, but it's one of the most challenging classes in the game now. There are many things to do correctly and incorrectly, and I believe that the decisionmaking and forward thinking one has to go through is very engaging and interesting. I think Summoner is weak in terms of numbers, but I do really like the actual mechanics of the class. Not everyone enjoys things that are obtusively challenging for the sake of being so, but I personally do.

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Originally Posted by TsundereImouto

I love the new summoner changes. They take time to get used to, but it's one of the most challenging classes in the game now. There are many things to do correctly and incorrectly, and I believe that the decisionmaking and forward thinking one has to go through is very engaging and interesting. I think Summoner is weak in terms of numbers, but I do really like the actual mechanics of the class. Not everyone enjoys things that are obtusively challenging for the sake of being so, but I personally do.

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that mirrored my personal opinion pretty good. I like the 4.0 smn for pve/open world content and loved it in pvp (even after 4.05) - but raiding is another story... although im lucky to have a fc/static noone said anything against playing smn at all. we were able to clear o1s and o2s in the first 2 days, currently on a 1 week break of o3s progress cause 2 member are off for work until next week. thinking of our progress... I get sad.. being out dpsed by a Brd mate if I have to res or fail Bahmumuts timing cause of mechanics... hard knock life atm but even that will be fixed "someday" - just stay strong ^^

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Originally Posted by Neela

that mirrored my personal opinion pretty good. I like the 4.0 smn for pve/open world content and loved it in pvp (even after 4.05) - but raiding is another story... although im lucky to have a fc/static noone said anything against playing smn at all. we were able to clear o1s and o2s in the first 2 days, currently on a 1 week break of o3s progress cause 2 member are off for work until next week. thinking of our progress... I get sad.. being out dpsed by a Brd mate if I have to res or fail Bahmumuts timing cause of mechanics... hard knock life atm but even that will be fixed "someday" - just stay strong ^^

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I don't expect most people to be able to, but I still find myself at the top of the DPS charts. I just feel bad because I don't bring embolden, mostly.
here's my o1s:
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/63arL...iew=analytical
here's my o2s:
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/6PWHQwNKrT8XB72L#fight=8

oh thats actually pretty good :o

Our comp is Drk, War, Ast, Sch, Sam, Blm, Brd and me (Smn) and without out pots and mid lvl food im just able to get around 3500 if everything goes well... in progress while in panic, death or res support I'm falling down a good 500-700 overall dps – falling behind our Brd on last dps place. I also was wondering myself about our Blm who can outdmg our Sam in mid fight phases - the adjustments on them were really strong indeed... .___.

Smn in 4.0 raiding personally feels more like work than fun – mostlikely cause i panic fast and be chaotic in nature as well but 2nd because the design of the cls itself is unforgiveable if you make minor mistakes... x'D

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Originally Posted by Neela

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Smn in 4.0 raiding personally feels more like work than fun – mostlikely cause i panic fast and be chaotic in nature as well but 2nd because the design of the cls itself is unforgiveable if you make minor mistakes... x'D

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Well, I mean objectively speaking you're working harder than the other classes for less returns (which also highkey tilts the issue, high complexity combo'd with the lower returns)

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15...nt&dataset=100

Someone from two week ago on discord:

**** - 07/13/2017
You have a degree in StarCraft to play smn right
How do I rdm

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Originally Posted by PriyaJugulataris

Well, I mean objectively speaking you're working harder than the other classes for less returns (which also highkey tilts the issue, high complexity combo'd with the lower returns)

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15...nt&dataset=100

Someone from two week ago on discord:

**** - 07/13/2017
You have a degree in StarCraft to play smn right
How do I rdm

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Why do you believe a higher complexity job deserves to be higher dps? Why do you refer to playing a game as "working" hard?
In my opinion, high complexity jobs should exist for people who enjoy the playstyle; class balance should be agnostic of how "difficult" a job is to master.
I agree that Summoner is undertuned, but the returns shouldn't matter--the core question here is do you enjoy the playstyle or not.

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Originally Posted by TsundereImouto

Why do you believe a higher complexity job deserves to be higher dps? Why do you refer to playing a game as "working" hard?
In my opinion, high complexity jobs should exist for people who enjoy the playstyle; class balance should be agnostic of how "difficult" a job is to master.
I agree that Summoner is undertuned, but the returns shouldn't matter--the core question here is do you enjoy the playstyle or not.

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Risk=Reward has been a gameplay standard across many series including FF, have made it so that people will embrace higher difficulty classes/gameplay if they get a suitable reward for it.

Summoner being undertuned damage on top of it's complexity is kicking the class while it's down.

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Originally Posted by PriyaJugulataris

Risk=Reward has been a gameplay standard across many series including FF, have made it so that people will embrace higher difficulty classes/gameplay if they get a suitable reward for it.

Summoner being undertuned damage on top of it's complexity is kicking the class while it's down.

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That's true if you look at single player games, but should rarely be true in multiplayer games where people compete with one another for results. It's an extremely difficult line to tread. Imagine Summoners were able to do 5k DPS if you were a literal god and did everything correctly; How would the people who are amazing at BLM feel about being that good? No matter how good they are, they can't beat the best Summoners even if they can beat most.

No. I think a world wherein the top players of both jobs bring equal benefit to their party. The reason to pick a class with Summoner's current kit is because you enjoy the challenge; needing to be better to match someone is just part of that. Classes should be balanced with the absolute highest possible output in mind; if the average summoner is worse than the average black mage, but the best summoner is equal to the best black mage, I think that that's fine--It's just a difference in the complexity of the jobs.

You keep saying Summoner being complex is bad; "kicking the class while it's down". You shouldn't need to compare yourself to other players to know whether you enjoy a job or not. When you enter a raid and pilot the job, do you enjoy yourself? Ignore numbers and tuning. Is it fun? That is the most important question. Balance can be achieved by changing some numbers, but to imply the complexity of the job is negative is something I take issue with; The complexity is why I play SMN in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Flana

Summoners don't play like a pet job.

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This is my biggest thing right here. It's my problem with SMN and SCH. The pets just seem like an afterthought. Like rather than being your BFF, they just sorta seem like a buff you have to keep alive. The vast majority of your spells have absolutely nothing to do with the pet either. It's just...there most of the time.

Half the time, I forget my pet is even there and to me, that's not okay.

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Originally Posted by TsundereImouto

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A) It's true in multiplayer games as well. From MOBA'S to other MMO'S to even shooters (Sniper gameplay, can be rewarding, but high risk)

B) As it currently stands, a player of equivalent skill could easily bring more to a team on several other classes as compared to playing a SMN, for several reasons (damage, utility)

C) The highest possible damage output isn't balanced. Speaking strictly in DPS terms, having classes that excel in varying fights/bring less DPS & more utility is entirely okay, however in the case of SMN, it's less DPS and Utility

D) I'm saying that summoner being as complex as it is, more punishing than any other class on death, while remaining within the 4 lowest DPS is kicking it while it's down. The rest of your statement is your own personal stuff that I... honestly could care less about.



I'm glad you like summoner. Honestly I am. I started as a summoner since day 1 of this game. But it has progressively gone down a path that many people have been disheartened by, as you can tell from the numerous threads regarding the subject, and given the data that we have from sources likes FF logs, it's entirely valid. People have started to outright stop SMN from joining their party finders, and while you can say "that's a dick move" there's no denying that this is a line of thought that's prevalent in the community regarding a class that is underperforming.

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Originally Posted by TsundereImouto

Why do you believe a higher complexity job deserves to be higher dps? Why do you refer to playing a game as "working" hard?
In my opinion, high complexity jobs should exist for people who enjoy the playstyle; class balance should be agnostic of how "difficult" a job is to master.
I agree that Summoner is undertuned, but the returns shouldn't matter--the core question here is do you enjoy the playstyle or not.

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Returns absolutely do matter, not just in this context but in the context of the entire game as well. Do you think more than a tiny handful of people would even be DOING Omega Savage if it weren't for the resultant rewards? Payoff for your perceived efforts is absolutely a core fundamental of virtually every aspect of gaming. SMN's current state is basically the equivalent of Savage giving out i320 gear and Normal i340. You can either "bump SMN's gear" higher so it's complexity is more alluring or you can "tune it's rotation down to Normal" so that effort vs. output is a non-factor. Making "Savage gear" (SMN) AND "Normal gear" (RDM) both "i340" (equivalent DPS) isn't going help much, though for god's sake SE it would at least relieve the sting a little.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

snip.

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i said that under the context of the greater conversation. In this thread, people are posting suggestions to change the core of Summoner. Nobody would bother posting a suggestion like "I like how they are now, just make them stronger." My question is why do people respond to Summoner's numbers being undertuned with suggestions to change the core gameplay. My asking "do you enjoy the playstyle or not" after saying "returns don't matter" means, roughly, if you enjoy summoner right now, don't suggest them to change it fundamentally, suggest that they bump the numbers up a bit to bring us in line with other jobs.

I still fundamentally disagree that a job being more complex and difficult to master necessitates it being poorly balanced.

Honestly, your first reason is why i'm enjoying summoner more now.

I loved the idea of playing a summoner, but hated being a dot mage. Being ruin mage is more preferable. Now i want them to give us more pet tied abilities that are not horribly awkward. Someone had the idea of making them similar to BRDs songs, which i personally liked.

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Originally Posted by TsundereImouto

I still fundamentally disagree that a job being more complex and difficult to master necessitates it being poorly balanced.

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It matters greatly. There are a lot of people in PFs that are specifically preventing SMNs and MCH from joining their groups because they know that the job is difficult to master and a lot of people are not like Eirene Snow (The best SMN player).