The state of DPS and why I both love and hate RDM

This is my last reply because you continue to make it personal and take offense to what I say. You are telling me that the reason that DRG is 400-500 dps behind RDM and 300 behind NIN on a dummy is because it doesn't work? Ok man, take care.

Still silly to want to nerf rdm, you just need to buff other classes. I don't feel RDM DPS is all that much higher, it's just more mobile. If you nerf RDM while buffing everyone else, bringing a RDM even with their utility wont matter for DPS checks. Also, with their Veraise, they may actually end up making it to where dual cast doesn't proc it anymore. Even then, Raising so much is very taxing on RDM so they may also increase the mana cost for it. IF they allow RDM's to keep dual cast/verraise. I'm sure these fights will be mostly mechanic based and some look like they don't require a whole lot of moving, so if BLM's have a rework with their spell speed/able to have more uptime and easier to manage, they would definitely shine, but probably wont til 4.2. Idk what to do with SMN. They used to be kings in AoE, utlity, and ST.

So, how about dat RDM Nerf? If Embolden really is a 6% rdps buff that's completely insane and offers 4 times as much rdps as the 1.7% TA, which on it's own already makes NIN a permanent melee. So long as Embolden exists in it's current form, no matter how much they buff BLM/SMN, they will be permanently locked out of all raid tiers.
*This is of course assuming that the above is correct.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

So, how about dat RDM Nerf? If Embolden really is a 6% rdps buff that's completely insane and offers 4 times as much rdps as the 1.7% TA, which on it's own already makes NIN a permanent melee. So long as Embolden exists in it's current form, no matter how much they buff BLM/SMN, they will be permanently locked out of all raid tiers.
*This is of course assuming that the above is correct.

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During it's duration the amount of DPS increased by embolden is 6%. It's in total a 1% rDPS increase. Not even in the same league as TA besides as TA is flat out vulnerability while embolden only bolsters physical attacks, obviously meaning casters will probably be a bit miffed

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Originally Posted by Dralonis

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Again, I'd like to point out that a class that's is the least punishing to play, has the most utility, has immense mobility, and incredibly high DPS is a broken concept.
RDM should not match BLM in the slightest, ever in DPS. Fact of the matter is, as much as I would love to have RDM kept the same and them to buff BLM instead and SMN, we all know a nerf is going to come for RDM and NIN. It's going to happen. Because the fact of the matter is, SAM is the pinnacle of DPS in the game because it brings no utility. And RDM and NIN, with their utility are quite close to a SAMs level of DPS. So they will most likely nerf NIN and RDM DPS down by a 100 or so DPS, and either buff BLM to SAM levels, or buff it slightly alongside SMN and overhaul MCH and DRG to bring them up to the new NIN/RDM levels.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

I don't deny SMN is hard to play, I used to play one myself. It has a lot to it that's for certain.
They both take different skill sets to play, with SMN it's more reactionary and with BLM it's all about thinking 1 minute ahead at all times.
Funny thing is that RDM has none of these problems.

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All the jobs are reactionary, if you really want to get technical. Not every fight goes exactly the same way every time. Not all abilities proc like clockwork in every given situation. RDM is just as reactionary as any other job. It's not immune to mechanics. There are situations where you need to throw out those cures and raises. That entire side of the job is reactionary, as well as dodging the mechanics.

As far as thinking ahead... RDM's do need to know what the mobs are going to use as far as abilities are concerned, and when they're going to use them. Just as much, if not more, than other jobs. Otherwise you rush in with your melee combo, into an AOE, then jump back into another one. You should also know when to stop and cast, and when you can instacast on the run. Not to mention looking for opportunities where you might have to throw out a cure or raise. It's not the exaggerated "brain dead" job everyone is making it out to be. People talk like RDMs just stand in one spot and instacast their spells non-stop.

I played SMN for a long time, (all through 2.X as second job to BRD, and first job through HW story) and I really don't care that RDM can take over the raises. It's like the most petty argument against RDM atm. SMN is also not that complicated, has a ton of mobility as well, and really shouldn't be "above" RDM on damage. SMN was, for the most part, an attrition job, rather than a cannon job like BLM. Yes, it has some spike damage now, but it wasn't always that way. They never really got the pet part of it right from the start. It needs a lot of work, imo. And for the love of everything that is decent, bring Sustain back.

BLM is in a fix, that I would mostly blame on things like Ley Lines. They should just have a trait that increases damage over time if the BLM happens to settle in a spot. Maybe it could even decrease casting times as well. Like a sort of casting tunnel vision. Make it a gamble on when the BLM wants to move out of the way. Overall, BLM wasn't entirely too complicated after learning the rotation. I'll admit I haven't played it past 60 in Stormblood yet, so maybe that has changed. I've read a lot of people don't like the gauge it got.

But if damage is lacking on BLM's part, then buff it. I'm not against changes, but I feel "nerfing" is the worst way to obtain balance. It's better to set standards, and push other jobs up to those standards. RDM is in a perfect spot, as I'm sure content is going to get harder as 4.X moves along. (We haven't even had our first savage mode raid yet.) If anything, bring BLM up a little, so the shortlist is BLM > RDM > SMN. After all, RDM is supposed to have some of that BLM cannon fire as well. If this means making BLM, or even SMN, a little "simpler," then by all means do it. This whole "it needs to be complex to be rewarding" argument is outright groundless twaddle.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

I'm not against changes, but I feel "nerfing" is the worst way to obtain balance.

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"Balance" is attained via both nerfs and buffs and which you use depends entirely on which is easier to do. If BLM and SMN are currently in a good spot compared to the melees and physical ranged DPS, then it's far easier to bring RDM down than to bring those two up, because then you also need to address every other DPS, at which point you made adjustments to 8 classes just to not nerf one. That's unreasonable. And the same argument goes if you'd try to argue to bring everyone down to MCHs current level instead of buffing it.

If you want balance, you can't be concerned about or afraid of nerfs. Nobody likes their class being nerfed, sure, and everyone likes riding the OP train, but if you actually want balance, you gotta stop caring about that and do the unpopular decisions sometimes. Whether that is the case right now - Honestly, I have no idea. I'm just talking general principle here.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

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When a class is too high, and you keep buffing, then you jsut make the content quicker and easier. You should be ready for a RDM nerf, as will NINs.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

If you want balance, you can't be concerned about or afraid of nerfs.

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You also shouldn't be afraid to buff something when it is the better course of action. This goes back to setting standards. RDM and SAM should set the precedent for the current expansion. When new jobs are introduced, usually the content is drawn up to what those jobs are capable of doing. A lot of the current content has the inside > outside AOE mechanics, most likely due to RDM's ability to jump in and out of melee range. A lot of the overworld content is scaled to RDM's solo ability.

The problem with this method, is sometimes you forget to look at what the older jobs can do in that same content. Since BLM is part of this topic, we'll say that this particular job doesn't have a lot of mobility. They tried to address this with Between the Lines. Which is all fine, but they failed to address the loss of DPS that BLM sustains while moving.

The other problem you have to look at is the certain bubbles created by different forms of DPS. Since a caster was added (RDM) you have to put that job, and the new standard in the caster bubble. A lot of people are crying foul at RDM outperforming certain melee classes. Casters should, and traditionally have, outperformed melee in terms of what is perceived as "cannon fire or nuke" damage. BLM should be at the top of that list, but also be brought in to the new standard set. Therefore, BLM should be buffed, over RDM being nerfed. Why? Because of SMN.

SMN, while in the same category, has a different style in creating damage. It has a lot of spike damage now, but the DoT aspect of the job should be the focus when looking at raising it's damage within the caster bubble. It should not outperform RDM in this case, seeing as RDM should traditionally have a piece of BLM's powder keg. A lot of SMN's damage came in the form of it's pets, which this game is having a hard time simulating. This needs adjusting, but RDM has always been better at DPS over SMN. It should not be brought down to (or below) SMN's level. I'm just glad RDM didn't get DoT, or we'd have an even bigger argument going.

This "caster bubble" should now be set aside, and not weigh in the decision of the melee classes' bubble. Instead, SAM should be creating the standard for the new melee bubble. It's ability, power, utility, should be weighed in with the other melee classes in the same manner. I have yet to touch SAM, so I can't really say how or where other jobs should be adjusted in relation to it. The argument on why NIN should be near the top is kind of obvious. It "casts" as well.

BRD was somewhat revamped, and should probably set the standard for ranged classes. MCH needs a lot of work, from what I've read/seen, but would you want BRD nerfed down to MCH? Or would it be better to buff MCH up to BRD's standards? Either way, you create yet another bubble with that.

When you're done creating these "bubbles" or areas of DPS, you then balance them against each other. Casters should be on top. Usually anything that delivered elemental damage was considered "better" than hitting and poking stuff. Despite how people feel about RDM, damage delivered shouldn't revolve around the complexity of the job. And stabbing something with a spear should never be compared to hitting something with a fireball. Except that they should be relatively close, but slightly skewed in the favor of the fireball.

Now you might be saying, "but everyone will leave the other classes behind and just play casters because they're better!" This is where the balance in content comes into play. Why there should be different buffs between jobs. Why mobs should have certain weaknesses, and strengths. And why taking a caster/ranged/melee in is better than caster/caster/caster. I said it earlier, but the complexity of the game should lie in the content, and be balanced to where combinations of jobs is more viable than using the flavor of the month.

Buffing is never the easy route, but in the case of RDM, buffing BLM is actually the best route for balance. Because you have to look at it outside of "RDM outperforms DRG," or "RDM outperforms MNK." It should outperform those jobs, even at the very basic level. If it is outperforming melee classes by a slight margin, then RDM is in the perfect spot, and shouldn't drop to match them. If RDM is outperforming BLM, but will be equal to, or less than melee DPS if nerfed, then the best course of action is to buff BLM. If RDM is outperforming some of the melee by huge margins, on par with others, and outperforming BLM; but will be hurt detrimentally by nerfing it, to where it is under-performing against all melee, then buffing BLM, and tweaking a few melee is the better course of action.

So far all I've seen is that RDM is "outperforming" BLM and SMN. And the one rare thread of it being better than DRG. (And of course MCH) It should be outperforming SMN and DRG. BLM should be better.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

When a class is too high, and you keep buffing, then you jsut make the content quicker and easier. You should be ready for a RDM nerf, as will NINs.

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If they nerf it, they nerf it. Again, we haven't even touched on "content" in this expansion, so who's to say it will get easier if RDM stays the same. I actually found NIN quite lacking running around doing solo content. So if people are crying "nerf" on it, they must have their raid-colored lenses on. Either way, there are more viable options, and it's quite alright to express an opinion on why something shouldn't be nerfed, without being a white knight about it.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

If they nerf it, they nerf it. Again, we haven't even touched on "content" in this expansion, so who's to say it will get easier if RDM stays the same. I actually found NIN quite lacking running around doing solo content. So if people are crying "nerf" on it, they must have their raid-colored lenses on. Either way, there are more viable options, and it's quite alright to express an opinion on why something shouldn't be nerfed, without being a white knight about it.

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Classes are not balanced based on solo content in the world, they're balanced based on their PvE capabilities in the raids.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

Classes are not balanced based on solo content in the world, they're balanced based on their PvE capabilities in the raids.

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Tell that to Yohsi-P!

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Originally Posted by TarynH

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The way I see it is all dps should do roughly the same dps on dummies or whatever % apart that SE wants them to be and then depending on fights is what their actual dps is at. Stationary fights should favor blm over smn with rdm in the middle and movement heavy fights should favor smn over blm with rdm in the middle.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

Classes are not balanced based on solo content in the world, they're balanced based on their PvE capabilities in the raids.

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And therein lies the problem. If you just start swinging the nerf stick around, you cause issues in other areas of the game. If you lower damage across the board on RDM, you hurt it in other areas as well. Aside from PvP (which should have it's own balance) you need to look at the game as a whole, not just the latest raid content. And there will be more content coming than just raids to think about. The "nerf RDM" train is a little early to leave the station, imo.

You do not balance a class based on the easy parts of the content. The solo open world content is very very easy, to the point that healers can do it all as well.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

Aside from PvP (which should have it's own balance) you need to look at the game as a whole, not just the latest raid content. And there will be more content coming than just raids to think about.

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Open world content is easy, even SCH with all it's nerfs is untouchable. Balancing around something that's super easy and borderline worthless sounds extremely off to me. At least for DoW/DoM, which are balance around raid content.

Open world is really just for gatherers.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

You do not balance a class based on the easy parts of the content. The solo open world content is very very easy, to the point that healers can do it all as well.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Open world content is easy, even SCH with all it's nerfs is untouchable. Balancing around something that's super easy and borderline worthless sounds extremely off to me. At least for DoW/DoM, which are balance around raid content.

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Nowhere did I say the game should be balanced solely around open world content. I said the entirety of the game should be looked at. Including open world content, but also looking ahead at savage, 24-man raid, and PotD/Eureka type content. You don't jump the gun on nerfs before you have all the variables to play with.

However, if they didn't care about balance in open world content, then what is the point of even having it? Why waste their time on FATEs, or having enemy levels? So yes, there is a certain degree of balance to open world content as well, despite how "easy" one might perceive it to be. That's why they don't go overboard with cranking up the damage output on jobs.

I also said I haven't used NIN in anything but open world content. So if people are crying "nerf" on that job, it must be solely a raid-related issue. As I found NIN to play much the same way it has always played. In other words, the experience I had with it, was not indicative to any perceived issues that some might have with it.

You also don't flippantly start changing jobs because another job comes along that is perceived as unbalanced. If any job should show a hint of perfect balance, it should be RDM. It should have a little bit of everything, but be a master of none. So far the only thing it's a master of is raising, which in the scheme of things is a nonissue, because it eats up MP like crazy. Therein lies the balance in that. BLM does out damage it. WHM does out cure it. It can't tank. It does have to stop running to cast an opening spell, so it can't run forever. It dies as fast as a BLM under fire. And melee jobs definitely out-melee it (except maybe DRG).

However, RDM is being looked at through the scope of petty jealousy, rather than an actual grievance. Over a job that is a jack-of-all-trades, but only a master of raising people. The arguments against it sound exactly like "BRD can move around too much," during the 2.X days.

RDM is not the issue here. The issue is with the other jobs, and it's not that hard to see it. BLM needs work. SMN needs work. They're both perceived as complicated, so make them less complicated. They could do with a slight damage increase for their lack of mobility. (Although, I still contend that SMN has pretty decent mobility.) DRG needs a little work on it's damage output. MCH needs... well... I don't know what. But BRD is on the bottom of the pile with it. RDM seems to be right in the middle of the road; where it should be. It's as close to a perfect job that I have ever picked up in an MMO. Not because it's OP, but because of the balance it actually has to it already. I think the fact that it is balanced, is the reason people despise it. They want their job to be better balanced as well. Which I have no disagreement with.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

Classes are not balanced based on solo content in the world, they're balanced based on their PvE capabilities in the raids.

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I would not be surprised if they come up with something like: "We decided to make BLM single target damage lower because they deal a lot of aoe damage in dungeons"

I mean... You are 100% right in your statement, and that's how things should be, but I'm not sure if that's how they actually are.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

Whatever happened to people enjoying simple, fun AND rewarding experiences? Have we become so jaded that we need to cry foul every time we see someone else get slight enjoyment out of life?

I'm in the "leave RDM alone" crowd. I'd rather see other jobs become "less complex" and more fun, than one fun and simple job be torn completely apart because of arbitrary views like the above.

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You are fight. People are so caught up with complaining that they forget how to enjoy things. It's quite disgusting, to be honest.

Instead of nerfing RDM, they just need to bring other dps up there.

Especially MCH, that had this premise of bringing utility... but there's just a sliver of it compared to BRD or even RDM supporting healers.

Did you guys read the live letter. Mch is getting some love. blm foul will not cost mana and fire 4 and blizzard4 are getting their times reduced from 3.0 to 2.8 slowly but surely all classes will get their buffs, no need to nerf anyone.

the blm "buff" is a joke

The problem with the Blm buff is that, while of course it's a buff, it doesn't address the issue that using our new skill Blizzard 4 constantly in every ice phase is actually a dps loss, compared with the rotation we did during HW.