Extreme Undercutting - Should it be a violation?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

If buyers are making smart decisions, then undercurrting by 1gil doesn't impact buying decisions since it's next to zero compared to taxes when buying out of your home market.

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I tend to buy based on the quantity I need and the total cost. I'm not saving anything if I need 3 at 100 gil when the lowest priced is 10 for 50 gil.

Someone dropped a random remark about undercutting = griefing and you decide to make this a community problem instead of just ignoring it, to the point of reporting yourself for undercutting (???)

Like... why?

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Someone dropped a random remark about undercutting = griefing and you decide to make this a community problem instead of just ignoring it, to the point of reporting yourself for undercutting (???)

Like... why?

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They said it was griefing, which to me read as me breaching the ToS. I have sent numerous reports to the GMs about myself over perceived rule breaking. More than I can count. I'm very tough about rules. A very black and white approach to them too.

Rules aren't decided by players, they are decided by GMs, so why are you reporting yourself over stuff players say?

Did you know every time you send a report that's time they are taking from answering other legitimate tickets?

Ofc its not a violation lmao... just because you think the item is worth 34m for example doesnt mean every1 else does

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Rules aren't decided by players, they are decided by GMs, so why are you reporting yourself over stuff players say?

Did you know every time you send a report that's time they are taking from answering other legitimate tickets?

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If there's cause to believe a rule was broken, the whole point is to report it so a GM can investigate. In this case, it was found that I hadn't breached a rule. But previous tickets sent about myself HAVE resulted in investigations being made. And while I believe so far they have all come back clean, the fact they've been investigated means the possibility of a rule breach was there. Ergo, not wasted time. You will not convince me otherwise. Griefing IS a terms of service violation. This particular incident wasn't griefing but as I wasn't sure, I felt a report was a good idea. Despite your claims to the contrary, I still believe it was the right thing to do.

Griefing has an intent, how do you not know if you are intending to harass someone? If you don't know it means there's no intent to grief.

I mean you're free to send as many tickets as you want, but be aware you are being very inconsiderate when you are wasting GM resources.

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Originally Posted by ChrisBabaganoosh

If people are undercutting that severely, I'm buying that shit up and reposting it.

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That's an excellent idea, which benefits you and the seller both!

...as long as you haven't misread the market. If you buy all that cheap stuff and relist for a price that few are willing to pay anymore, you wind up with egg on your face.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

They said it was griefing, which to me read as me breaching the ToS. I have sent numerous reports to the GMs about myself over perceived rule breaking. More than I can count. I'm very tough about rules. A very black and white approach to them too.

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I'd like to say that this is an admirable attitude to have - but sadly, it is not. Very few things in the ToS can be properly interpreted in black-and-white terms. Consider, for example, Yoshi P's stance on selling housing plots to other players. He says that it's absolutely an infraction to resell a property for an enormous sum of money - but does not go into any specifics as to how much "an enormous sum" actually is. Debate on what an appropriate price is to sell a plot has generated more than one thread on these forums - and in the end, it all comes down to the mood of players observing the sale (who may or may not report the individual) and the whims of the GM assigned to investigate (who likely also has no official rulebook stating how much is too much).

Worse, by frequently reporting yourself (or anyone else!) to the GM for minor infractions, the GMs are distracted from handling more serious issues, such as freeing players who have gotten stuck due to some game glitch ("I'm trapped behind my bed, I can't reach the door, and can't use Return or Teleport inside an Inn room - please help!").

On top of this, it sounds as though you reported yourself just because someone told you you were griefing. This indicates an uncomfortable degree of credulity; folks say all kinds of unfortunate things when they are angry. Even if you do not have the tendency to resort to emotional outbursts when frustrated, it's important to understand that many, if not most, other players will from time to time. When someone confronts you for some wrongdoing you've supposedly done, you should verify that you're actually in the wrong before incriminating yourself. You seem to be doing so in this thread - but you did so AFTER reporting yourself. That seems backwards to me: you should verify your own guilt before submitting yourself for punishment. Leaving it to overworked GMs to decide whether you're guilty or innocent is the lazy way out.

At any rate, I hope that you've learned from this thread that undercutting is not against any rule. Yes, it will make some folks mad, but just about anything you do on the market has a shot of doing that. For that matter, anything you do in game or even in real life has a chance of angering someone. People come in all kinds, some more reasonable than others, and this sometimes results in friction. It is unavoidable, as long as you're interacting with other people in any capacity at all.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Griefing has an intent, how do you not know if you are intending to harass someone? If you don't know it means there's no intent to grief.

I mean you're free to send as many tickets as you want, but be aware you are being very inconsiderate when you are wasting GM resources.

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To me, even if it wasn't the intent, it was what I did. Again, it probably goes back to that black and white thinking I mentioned earlier. For me, the reason I do those severe undercuts is to try and bring prices crashing down, which I'm told is griefing. My reasoning for it is to try and make things more affordable for newer players, make things cheaper. Someone told me that was griefing, which I agree I blindly took as gospel when I should have done more research. Other times, it's because I've made someone uncomfortable which I treat as harassment. It's possible I'm black and white to extreme levels and to a fault, but it's how my mind processes things (I'm very much a J to a fault in the Myers-Briggs personality test, it either happened or it didn't, circumstances and intent do not matter). Funnily enough, I'm more often than not a lot more lenient on others than myself. You wouldn't believe how many people tell me I need to cut myself some slack. But, it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I'd like to say that this is an admirable attitude to have - but sadly, it is not. Very few things in the ToS can be properly interpreted in black-and-white terms. Consider, for example, Yoshi P's stance on selling housing plots to other players. He says that it's absolutely an infraction to resell a property for an enormous sum of money - but does not go into any specifics as to how much "an enormous sum" actually is. Debate on what an appropriate price is to sell a plot has generated more than one thread on these forums - and in the end, it all comes down to the mood of players observing the sale (who may or may not report the individual) and the whims of the GM assigned to investigate (who likely also has no official rulebook stating how much is too much).

Worse, by frequently reporting yourself (or anyone else!) to the GM for minor infractions, the GMs are distracted from handling more serious issues, such as freeing players who have gotten stuck due to some game glitch ("I'm trapped behind my bed, I can't reach the door, and can't use Return or Teleport inside an Inn room - please help!").

On top of this, it sounds as though you reported yourself just because someone told you you were griefing. This indicates an uncomfortable degree of credulity; folks say all kinds of unfortunate things when they are angry. Even if you do not have the tendency to resort to emotional outbursts when frustrated, it's important to understand that many, if not most, other players will from time to time. When someone confronts you for some wrongdoing you've supposedly done, you should verify that you're actually in the wrong before incriminating yourself. You seem to be doing so in this thread - but you did so AFTER reporting yourself. That seems backwards to me: you should verify your own guilt before submitting yourself for punishment. Leaving it to overworked GMs to decide whether you're guilty or innocent is the lazy way out.

At any rate, I hope that you've learned from this thread that undercutting is not against any rule. Yes, it will make some folks mad, but just about anything you do on the market has a shot of doing that. For that matter, anything you do in game or even in real life has a chance of angering someone. People come in all kinds, some more reasonable than others, and this sometimes results in friction. It is unavoidable, as long as you're interacting with other people in any capacity at all.

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I am prone to emotional outbursts myself when I get angry (just ask my former FC leader, it was anger at something that happened IRL that prompted me to up and move to Louisoix as a means of isolation. Backwards logic I know, but truth be told I am mostly enjoying Louisoix, possible blessing in disguise?), so I can see where you're coming from there.

And when you put it that way of other issues it takes them from, it does start to make more sense that maybe I should indeed take my friend's advice and cut myself some slack, being human after all I do make mistakes (easier said than done when you've indoctrined yourself that you're not allowed to make mistakes over many years, but I'm working on it!)

But yes, a good takeaway point I've noticed from there is I should indeed double check that it's not an emotional outburst, or some other manner of nefarious scheme, before moving forward. I must admit I am prone to taking people's words at face value. I'm not sure why I'm that way, but I generally am. I usually believe if I've been told I've done something wrong, I have, because they said so. Something else to bring up at my next therapy session methinks.

And finally, one point I did forget to touch upon. You're right actually that a lot of things are very grey here in the FFXIV rule nuances. I guess for someone who primarily thinks in black and white as I do (due to how my brain processes things, I struggle tremendously with seeing the "grey area"), the very vague nature of the rules just makes things an even bigger clustertruck to understand. Your point about housing is a very valid one now that I really think over it. In any case, I do feel, jabs and insults from some commenters aside, that I have learned quite a lot from this.

I can't believe this post had wracked up 9 pages of 'discussion' when the answer is.... No. I thought this was going to be some troll thread....

It's not all that big of a deal, though I do feel that the FF 11 style AH was better, since the way it worked tended to keep prices more stable. That said, here's my question: Why do so many people put things up on MB for prices LESS than vendors would have paid them?

Not at all. The market adjusts itself for these things.

Capitalism.

You know, you have every capability to buy and re-sell their item for a profit...

The joy of an open and free market. Sell anything at any price, as long as there is a buyer for it. Nothing wrong undercutting if you wanna sell faster... or crash some markets.

I don't understand the point of this. Op, you reported yourself for undercutting? Why are you not being punished abusing the report system, wasting the GMs time, and even posting the GM response on the official fourms?

No, it should not be considered a violation or even negative. It's a completely valid market tactic.

My time in game has a value. And if I have all my market slots full I only make gil by undercutting I don't extreme undercut. But it's basically a free market and will correct itself with supply and demand.

Also if someone need a lot of something undercutting at a loss of gil and turn around and save themselves gil before the correction happens.

undercutting what? most crap on the MB is over priced. where did this magical "standard" price come from? somebody made it up, probably in an attempt to make more money then any item is actually worth. if you take component prices of anything (which is located in the handy tool tips) add them together and then add a reasonable amount for time and skill required plus a bit of profit nothing on the board even comes close to a realistic price in a real world economy...probably even compared to worst case US medical markup. No, undercutting should not be considered a reportable offense. It should be a public service.

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Originally Posted by Kosme

God I miss those FFXI blind auctions.

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Me too it was great

Speaking as a crafter, I think the free market system is preferable to setting limits on what price a player can set. There is far too much potential for abuse once limits are set. Don't like someone undercutting you? Report them. No thanks.
As to what other games do. who cares?
No one likes being undercut, but that's how a free market system works. Please don't change this.

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Originally Posted by Zarabeth

Speaking as a crafter, I think the free market system is preferable to setting limits on what price a player can set. There is far too much potential for abuse once limits are set.
No one likes being undercut, but that's how a free market system works. Please don't change this.

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But Comrade, COMMUNISM!

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...19/208/b4c.jpg

I'm curious, is there any way to have this thread locked? I think it's safe to say it has outlived its usefulness (if it ever was useful). I had thought that it had simply died off, but seems it's still being picked up. Might be best to just have it shut down.

No. this should never be a violation. As a Miner and a seller of goods and a maker of gil, I say let them undercut.

When they undercut, I simply buy it and put it right back on the boards. Sorry, it's just playing the market. If they want to under cut for a quick buck Ill be happy to oblige

Edit: annnnnnnnnnnnd I had already posted on this thread lol >.<

Greifing ? No not at all. If you are stupid enough to put things up for sale at 90% lower than market value I'm sure there are enough players to buy those items then list them at 99% of current market and make a great profit.

You are assuming these extreme undercutters are checking to see what items are going for and not just posting stuff for quick sale. Not everyone is trying to drop market prices, they might just be clearing out there bags.

Hi,

I would appreciate if you could please send me an in-game mail every time you're listing something so I can go ahead and buy it to relist at a higher price, thank you in advance!

Your market price guardian,
Matty
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmhxq9Snb71qzrgug.gif

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Originally Posted by mattymaats

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmhxq9Snb71qzrgug.gif

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you know, you do the undercutters a favor by buying all the stuff.

too bad we are not at the same server, someone who buys ANYTHING i throw at him is very nice to have.

since you payed for the items you have to sell the stuff for the doubled price to make the same amount of profit. is that possible? especially if the undercutters just undercut you again, since the stuff sold that good, maybe they should put even more on the market?

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Originally Posted by Tint

since you payed for the items you have to sell the stuff for the doubled price to make the same amount of profit. is that possible? especially if the undercutters just undercut you again, since the stuff sold that good, maybe they should put even more on the market?

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Exactly, and some people might look at the purchase history, see a lot of them going for less than the amount the other people wanted, and start also flooding in at that price. I realise my OP may have been phrased and handled horribly, but it has sparked some good points, like this one.

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Originally Posted by Tint

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It's the same in most MMOs with a free market, it's not about making the same markup, sometimes a small markup can net you a lot if there's a high turnover but I can make even more like I can buy items for 30k and sell them for 150k majority of the time. It's all about knowing how often an item sells as some items aren't worth flipping as they hardly sell and then what you can charge for it so it's really easy to make money just flipping stuff. Aye you can get undercut here and there but in the end you'll sell the item most of the time it just takes a little longer. When I played ESO I never crafted or anything on that side I made all of my money from flipping items from one market to another but it is a lot harder here without the addons xD

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Exactly, and some people might look at the purchase history, see a lot of them going for less than the amount the other people wanted, and start also flooding in at that price. I realise my OP may have been phrased and handled horribly, but it has sparked some good points, like this one.

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Only zombies would do that or a new player.. You'll rarely get people who just list items super cheap because they don't know what they're doing and people who purposely crash markets are the worst kind as I remember when it happened with Wakfu and it ruined the game for everyone else for a long time.

It's not an offence but why would you do it? I really want to know why. There is 2 crafters on my server with the same last name, who crashed the price of the crafting gear to below material cost, and they've started moving in on the new 320 crafts. Undercutting by 2mil or in one case 4.2m and pushing some of the items down to 1m - 1.5m which is about 100k profit on all ready slow moving items. Makes no sense to me why they do this it's very annoying because they eventually move in on EVERY crafted item and the worse part is they sit at there retainer for what seems like 16 hours a day. If you undercut them they undercut all 3 of there items again by several 100k and again...

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Originally Posted by Berilein

It's not an offence but why would you do it? I really want to know why. There is 2 crafters on my server with the same last name, who crashed the price of the crafting gear to below material cost, and they've started moving in on the new 320 crafts. Undercutting by 2mil or in one case 4.2m.

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That's an easy one to answer, because they're a cuck xD I'm not sure if some people don't know or see the knock on effect they have by undercutting items by huge amounts as it doesn't just have an effect on that item. It can cause the material price to crash when then can crash the price of other crafted items which use some of those materials and so on. When you're dealing with a market player like that though it can be quite difficult as if you keep trying to undercut them they will keep lowering the prices further so I would hold onto it and craft some other items until they get bored or move onto something else.

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Originally Posted by Berilein

It's not an offence but why would you do it? I really want to know why.

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For me, it was more aimed at a buyer's perspective. I wouldn't touch the high end crafter stuff etc, but let's say certain things, like I've seen level 15 dungeon gear going for 100k an item, which for someone levelling their first class, could be a bit outrageous (as far as I know, ARR quest chains don't give out that much levelling gear unlike HW and SB), so it was aimed at making things more accessible for them. That's why I would do it. Though if stuff gets pushed to selling below material cost, it's possible that the benefit then gets shifted to omnigathercrafters (does that make any sense?) who can get the materials for no cost except time, and thus could even get away with selling the items for 1 gil and still make a profit, as well as stuff being done on the cheap. Crafting gear however, to me, if you're crafting, you're either able to make it yourself, or have the money to get the materials for it.

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Originally Posted by mattymaats

That's an easy one to answer, because they're a cuck xD I'm not sure if some people don't know or see the knock on effect they have by undercutting items by huge amounts as it doesn't just have an effect on that item. It can cause the material price to crash when then can crash the price of other crafted items which use some of those materials and so on.

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I'll be honest with you, I wasn't aware of the knock-on effect it could have with regards to material places. I thought it would just affect that single item, and didn't realise it would snowball like that.

the ones I don't get are the ones who undercut NPC sell price.. just... sell it to the NPC's? it must be easier than listing it?

You also have to take into account that not everyone is a veteran in this game and are still learning the ropes. What you perceive as undercutting may also be players simply unaware that they can check prices currently sold on items and just put thier rare item up for whatever they think it's worth. Would it be fair to ban them for an oversight/mistake?

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

like I've seen level 15 dungeon gear going for 100k an item, which for someone levelling their first class, could be a bit outrageous

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Just saying you do realise that the prices of those items are generally that high because high level people buy them for glam glams and they're too lazy to farm the item as majority of players won't be bothered with running a level 15 dungeon several times to try and get a marketable item. Nah they'd rather throw money at someone for listing it, a lot of the time it is low level people selling the items for that much and with what you're doing that's taking away their chance of making a lot of money.

When I first started that's how I made my first mil, running the low level dungeons and selling the marketable gear to higher level players who wanted the glams, it's not always just high level people making crazy prices and if people are willing to pay it who's to stop them?

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Originally Posted by mattymaats

a lot of the time it is low level people selling the items for that much and with what you're doing that's taking away their chance of making a lot of money.

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Shows how much I know... didn't realise that either. Thought it was mostly low level players wanting to buy them, not the low level players selling them to high level players! But that's something I'll bear in mind for the future. I think if I do end up with it in the future, I'll just use it as GC/desynth fodder. That way the low level players can keep that avenue.

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Originally Posted by nty

You can buy vendor gear for literally all of the lower levels, and most of the time it costs next to nothing. If someone is too lazy to farm content to get their gear, and wants to throw their money at the market board then let them. This game literally revolves around farming the same content for gear (all the high level raids&trials) and with the possibility of easily obtaining vendor gear the prices justify laziness. Additionally this is a new server, where a lot of things are still in demand due to the lack of available resources on the market and/or high level crafters, so the prices will eventually settle.

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When I was doing this, it was back on Odin, so not quite the same situation as Louisoix. Yes, even on Odin this stuff was going for quite high prices. I do agree with you about Louisoix's situation though, that prices will eventually settle as more people come to the server. It's just a waiting game there. I think I am seeing prices steadily drop across the board already.

You can buy vendor gear for literally all of the lower levels, and most of the time it costs next to nothing. If someone is too lazy to farm content to get their gear, and wants to throw their money at the market board then let them. This game literally revolves around farming the same content for gear (all the high level raids&trials) and with the possibility of easily obtaining vendor gear the prices justify laziness. Additionally this is a new server, where a lot of things are still in demand due to the lack of available resources on the market and/or high level crafters, so the prices will eventually settle.

Players value an item differently. If the market rate is less than you think it is worth, you can buy. If you don't want to sell at that rate, don't. It's not hard. Asking for fixed market prices just causes terrible issues, and it causes more problems down the road.

Let's say the devs try to fix the price. What is their metric? A large portion of the currency is generated from people doing quests or bonuses from dungeons. Currency is destroyed through repairs and npcs. Some of you are proposing that someone should be paid for each server to micromanage 100's of items on a constant basis based off other players value of an item. It's much simpler to just let players set their own price and accomplishes this better than any human can do.

You don't need the market in this game, it's purely optional. People just have understand it's just another part of the game.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

like I've seen level 15 dungeon gear going for 100k an item,

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Not sure if it's the same items I'm thinking of, but the Templar, Buccaneer, and Harlequin sets are used for achievements with the guy in Old Gridania near the SCH NPC.