Tank Role actions

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

This is ridiculously silly for Paladins. On patch day Paladins will have lost:

Protect
Stoneskin
Raise (Palace of the Dead)
Bloodbath
Foresight
Mercy Stroke
Pacification (removed Shield Swipe)
Silence (removed from Spirits Within)
Rampart
Provoke
Awareness
Convalescence

Then we have to spend 5/5 Tank Role actions if we want to get our original last five abilities returned. We lose all of that to gain nothing essentially.

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To be fair, alot of this is just bloat or a very, very minor loss. We also don't know what the full kit will look like. They don't need to make up for much

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Rampart being on the crossclass skills is honestly.

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Not exactly I just look at things as a whole I tank everything in this gAme so even for instance in copper bell mines if ur warrior and want to finish it in fifteen mins with big pulls. Let's assume u don't take rampart or conv. As it stands now u have zero df cool downs at ur disposal or every time u get a lowbie dungeon for leveling or mentor roulette u have to rearrange ur abilities witch isn't exactly fun to me. and rampart to me doesn't trumpt blood bath, foresight, ir, and second wind in my opinion. Rampart would only be better if defiance worked like shield oath and grit

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Rampart would only be better if defiance worked like shield oath and grit

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Rampart would be worse if Defiance worked like ShO/Grit. ShO/Grit + Rampart is 36% damage reduction, Defiance + Rampart is (functionally) 40% since there's no stacking of %-based defensive CDs. Not having Bloodbath sucks, but it just means we have to be healed sooner now which isn't that big of a deal and only realistically applies to dungeons. I'd rather have Bloodbath than not have it, but w/e we were bound to get nerfed anyway. I'm more concerned about the fact that we bring nothing unique to the party since we lost Path's debuff and NIN/SAM can use Eye without a DPS loss. I guess we have the best burst damage? And maybe best personal damage overall? Maybe? Idk, I guess we'll see when the expansion drops.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I'm more concerned about the fact that we bring nothing unique to the party since we lost Path's debuff and NIN/SAM can use Eye without a DPS loss. I guess we have the best burst damage? And maybe best personal damage overall? Maybe? Idk, I guess we'll see when the expansion drops.

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With the removal of Path and change to Reprisal I think SE is trying to move away from debuffs with high uptime. I'm expecting to see Delirium and Halone lose their debuffs too and I'd be really suprised if WAR didn't get at least one raidwide cooldown, maybe Thrill of War from PVP since Passage of Arms is basically Tetsudo.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Rampart would be worse if Defiance worked like ShO/Grit. ShO/Grit + Rampart is 36% damage reduction, Defiance + Rampart is (functionally) 40% since there's no stacking of %-based defensive CDs. Not having Bloodbath sucks, but it just means we have to be healed sooner now which isn't that big of a deal and only realistically applies to

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Dont forget second wind another self heal is gone as well, and like I said drk really looks even worse than both tanks which sucks because they have to add alot more to them to even get on the same level as they where before as well as the other two tanks in terms of df cool downs. I dont care what anyone says I had bloodbath(even if it only did as much self healing and one cure) and foresight on my drk as I just simply dont have as much faith in random healers as everyone else seems to.

So they lose those two, now they have to pick conv and rampart just to regain what was lost in cross class, and they lost 100 potency from low blow, and lost the 210 potency from rephrasel , thats a lost in 310 potency all together, also drk mind only helps for magic damage while bulwark works on both physical and magic now. I just dont like what they did at all its prob showing in my post, it would of been much easier to just simply unlock cross class skills to all jobs instead of what we are currently getting now, losing damage and losing cool downs.

So all together what im seeing is pali losing stone skin a loss, pali losing foresight , bloodbath, and mercy stroke, to replace it with skill that where already theirs, conv, rampart, awarness, and provoke also losing shield swipe.

Drk losses, bloodbath , foresight, mercy stroke, 310 potency from losing damage on lowblow and rephrasal, and if dark mind doesnt change having a df cool down that only mitigates magic damage while the others can do both possibly losing int down.

Warrior loses, ir, foresight, second wind, and this bothers me and Ive seen many other warriors use flash as well its a preference thing, looks like they lose fracture as well, mercy stroke, and bloodbath, and 20 percent from beserk oh and brutal swing not sure the potency loss, and the ability to freely stance dance and always have the option to pic fell cleave or inner beast.

and the main options will be rampart two of the tanks already had, conv, awareness, a one second silence one second really, a five second stun with no damage, an aoe provoke , I see alot of losses here compared to gains

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

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All silences are 1 second long. If you don't like that, the Mogstation is over there.

On topic: As a Dark Knight, these changes to the role system seem... curious. I'm wondering if Rampart is supposed to be more of a "I didn't see the buster coming" ability now, rather than the bread and butter for PLD and DRK. The changes we saw of Sheltron (consuming 50 "oath") implies that Sheltron may be similar in power now to Inner Beast (consumes 50 "inner beast"), likewise, it is safe to assume Dark Knights got a version of Sheltron or Inner Beast as well that interacts with Blackblood.

As for Low Blow and Reprisal, the loss in potency will likely be recovered elsewhere. Awareness and Convalescence I have always viewed as sort of "these are nice, but low tier" abilities, in fact, I'm kind of irritated Awareness is still around. Interject is just nice to have.

Shirk, going by icon and name alone, is most likely some form of Shadewalker, which is a very useful ability for tanks to get. Likewise, Anticipation may be a role-wide method of dealing with single, hard-hitting magic attacks.

Now, the big two: Provoke and Ultimatum. Provoke will likely be "mandatory" for most raid fights, but being a more defensive and flexible tank might be preferred in dungeons if you feel comfortable with your enmity generation. Ultimatum I see little use for. It's a cute ability, but it's probably the weakest role action in the bunch. The small radius combined with the long cooldown means its only good if you're very quick at reacting, but even then, it's still a provoke, which means you need to have an AoE enmity skill lined up with it. Honestly, I rather see something else here, Ultimatum feels like a crutch for players that need two crutches.

I think this depends on whether the enmity system stays the same as it is now. If Provoke and Ultimatum give you more than enmity + 1, or if the enmity threshold for taking back aggro is higher than 100%, then you could see Ultimatum used as a snap enmity grab as well. You could then switch over more quickly to AoE spellcasting on PLD, for example, without needing to Flash, because you'd know that the mobs would be locked on you until the dps surpassed your enmity by a set threshold.

From another perspective, if Shirk is an enmity transfer tool (i.e. shirking your responsibilities) as some people are speculating, then you could theoretically pass aggro between two tanks through Shirk alone, without needing Provoke. But if you have to pass a threshold to regain enmity, then they both fill different niches.

Anticipation actually looks a lot like Dark Dance, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's a parry rate skill. Awareness might not even be the same ability, or it may have other effects added to it. For example, it could be a combination of Critical Hit immunity and the Tempered Will effects.

We don't have tooltips for Rampart, Provoke, Anticipation, Awareness, and Shirk. We can make some assumptions, based on the names, but we can't take anything for granted, even if they share the same name and icon as actions currently in the game.

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Originally Posted by MiniPrinny

I'm kind of irritated Awareness is still around.

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It will be nice if there is more content with auto-crit phases like the add phase in Zurvan and at the start of Diablos Hollow. Plenty of Warriors and Dark Knights complained about leveling Paladin to 22 for Provoke, imagine the complaining if Awareness (34) had been more mandatory.

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Now, the big two: Provoke and Ultimatum. Provoke will likely be "mandatory" for most raid fights, but being a more defensive and flexible tank might be preferred in dungeons if you feel comfortable with your enmity generation. Ultimatum I see little use for. It's a cute ability, but it's probably the weakest role action in the bunch. The small radius combined with the long cooldown means its only good if you're very quick at reacting, but even then, it's still a provoke, which means you need to have an AoE enmity skill lined up with it. Honestly, I rather see something else here, Ultimatum feels like a crutch for players that need two crutches.

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Ultimatum is multi-target so if a group of adds ever spawns with pregenerated enmity having it will be better than having Provoke.

The battle design team has been limited by what is available currently in the various job's tool kits. A fair number of the new cross-role skills may have been added in order to give the designers more design space for future fights.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

-snipity!-

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I could see them shoehorning in a use for Ultimatum like that, but as an ability on its own, Ultimatum is just... yeah... It's cute and that's about it. It'll be a puzzle piece in some raid fight, I'm sure.

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Originally Posted by MiniPrinny

I could see them shoehorning in a use for Ultimatum like that, but as an ability on its own, Ultimatum is just... yeah... It's cute and that's about it. It'll be a puzzle piece in some raid fight, I'm sure.

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Consider this: How often do you need Provoke's range? There have been only a few fights where the 25y range would be more advantageous than a 5y range.

It is going to be up to player preference most of the time on which one is better.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Consider this: How often do you need Provoke's range? There have been only a few fights where the 25y range would be more advantageous than a 5y range.

It is going to be up to player preference most of the time on which one is better.

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It's less about the range and more about the cooldown and the fact that any tank worth their salt shouldn't be using provoke to re-establish aggro in single tank encounters.

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Originally Posted by MiniPrinny

It's less about the range and more about the cooldown and the fact that any tank worth their salt shouldn't be using provoke to re-establish aggro in single tank encounters.

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i remember one of my first tanking experiences: i was a new DRK in Haukke, last boss. the adds spawned and of course were going straight to the healer. i grabbed all the adds in no time, was popping my cooldowns, but the healer paniced, spammed heals on himself and i died. the DDs killed the adds and i got a raise, but i had 0 chance to get the aggro from the boss back.

the next thing i did was leveling PLD to learn Provoke.

I get 5 of these...

1. Rampart - since it was on my class originally
2. Provoke - again my ability
3. Convalescence - another one of my already used
4. Ultimatum - Mass Taunt say no more
5. Low Blow


Until I see what the other ones does

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Originally Posted by MiniPrinny

It's less about the range and more about the cooldown and the fact that any tank worth their salt shouldn't be using provoke to re-establish aggro in single tank encounters.

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This standpoint is pretty subjective to the individual. Mistakes happen and sometimes you miss a mob in a big pull, or you stay out of tank stance for too long and realize that the dps are over taking you in a boss. In these situational instances, provoke-Shield Lob/Unmend/Tomahawk is the easiest way to regain control. These things happen. It's called being human. Personally, provoke will always be on my hotbars whether it's dungeon content or raids. And I wouldn't consider any tank using provoke in 4-man content as "not worth their salt." In fact they're more likely to get a comm from me by using provoke rather than trying to regain control by spamming their enmity aoe.

Any content you can die in is content you should have Provoke for. So it's basically always required.

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

tsh...as predicted, war lose nothing

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Look on the bright side, since these abilities move to cross job action mean we will have new one to replace them

I have enjoyed tanking in this game, especially once Dark Knight came out. The other MMO I played I could not enjoy tanking, their damage was just too low. If tank damage is getting severely nerfed than I may be done.

I never liked the STR/VIT change before, maybe I can live with them going back if they let us advanced meld strength again.

Some of the PLD changes look really positive. I knew that they absolutely had to get another AoE this time around. PLD was my first primary class and I still play it quite a bit, especially in POTD or if a fight favors it.

However, I am a DRK main now. Losing reprisal, low blow, and magic damage resistance seems like some signature moves, damage (which may not be the case, depending on new abilities or other changes), and role/identity are going away. Ever since I unlocked DRK I felt "finally, the class for me" and I never meta-chased by leveling a WAR or whatever else the flavor of the month was but have been concerned since there were always a legion of bads wanting tanks not to have to deal damage or wanting the class to be easier to play. I just hope those are not the people that are being listened to.

since stun moves no longer do dmg, we might see stunnable moves more often in raids in 4.0

well, in the end all comes down to the skills each tank gets and what content is done.

I still think rampart, conva, provoke/ultimatum and reprisal are set in raid/extreme content, which would only leave one open spot

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

since stun moves no longer do dmg, we might see stunnable moves more often in raids in 4.0

well, in the end all comes down to the skills each tank gets and what content is done.

I still think rampart, conva, provoke/ultimatum and reprisal are set in raid/extreme content, which would only leave one open spot

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I expect we'll see different loadouts across two tanks in a raid situation.

So yeah, they'll both be running rampart (assuming your group is making decent use of both tanks' cooldowns, otherwise the OT might drop it), provoke, reprisal, and then the MT taking conva or awareness and a stun/silence as necessary, while the OT opts for shirk or something.

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

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That's not a accurate statement; We can't know if any situation will demand all 10/10 cross class abilities. If ever there was such a situation it will demand either the tanks split the cross class and that it never be a 4 man content. If SE purposely made content that DEMANDS all 10/10 cross class abilities AND we tanks could not equipped them all that would be poor design...give SE more credit than that.

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Originally Posted by javid

that would be poor design...give SE more credit than that.

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Two words.
Gordias savage. :P

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

Two words.
Gordias savage. :P

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Gordias wasn't a poor design!! It was Hard as hell, but it wasn't a poor design. I personally would like if the difficulty would return to gordias ONCE ppl become acclimated with the new system.

Edit

I like the dps check of gordias. I loveeed the CC (bind, heavy, silence etc) uses of midas, and I like the randomness of Creator. A rdm fight that has utility & dps checks is a fun test of personal ability and group cohesion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9L71uL9P3Q

a new video with info about all the role skills and more for tanks

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Originally Posted by shao32

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9L71uL9P3Q

a new video with info about all the role skills and more for tanks

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is it ok to post a vid up from reddit here from the tour ?

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

is it ok to post a vid up from reddit here from the tour ?

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i find it in youtube when i was just listening the stormblood ost, i dont see it in reddit, if is not ok i dont mind delete it.

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Originally Posted by javid

Gordias wasn't a poor design

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Off topic, but Royal Pentacle was trash design. Considering engine limitations, so was the pass mechanic in Living Liquid. Also how Living Liquid has like 7 instant-wipe conditions before the final part of the fight. Also Gordias 2 was boring.

they really made it easy to tank swap with the role abilities two provokes and shirk...wow...I practically don't even have to do anything the other tank can just cast shirk on me , I guess tanks will be doing a lot of swapping in SB like they do now in the extreme trials. I'll miss having bloodbath as a ability It was great for my tank

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Originally Posted by PogueX

they really made it easy to tank swap with the role abilities two provokes and shirk...wow...I practically don't even have to do anything the other tank can just cast shirk on me , I guess tanks will be doing a lot of swapping in SB like they do now in the extreme trials. I'll miss having bloodbath as a ability It was great for my tank

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You'll probably just take one, either provoke or the aoe provoke, taking both seems like it's a waste of role skill slot. Shirk would work really well with provoke, we probably wouldn't have aggro issues considering the aggro control skills the dps have.

berserk is now nothing more than poor man's fight or flight
will appreciate if put it on the same level as the old berserk, instead of just making it weaker

30% damage up for 20s on 60s gcd is effectively 10% damage up on average, while 50% damage up for 20s on 90s gcd is effectively 11.1% damage up on average, assuming 100% of your pacification is cleansed with paean. It's a very minor nerf, and it also aligns better with the new inner release on 120s cd. It also aligns better with hypercharge and trick attack.

I will miss the real reprisal too. Loved the sound, visual, damage. 5s duration/60s cooldown and not unique now...unnnhhh