I'm calling it the Epidemic. (This is a rant, if you dont wanna hear it, don't click)

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

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No I'm not. I also believe that players should strive to be good, and play the game as intended, but it has to be understood that there is an inherent risk when you decide to play this game, or literally do anything at all...anywhere, in anything... when you are doing it with random people you don't know. That's just a given. If you want to be upset over that, then be my guest. If you aren't willing to accept that if you use DF, there is a good chance you'd run into people who don't know what their doing, then you're only doing yourself a disservice by using DF.

That's just called maturity.

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Originally Posted by Faliandra

in the end, your overall statement sounds like "its bad to kick low dps people unless their character is obviously afk".

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Well at least you understand the jist of the argument, even if you're still not engaging with my primary point...

I do personally believe it's wrong to kick someone for low DPS in a place where low DPS is not causing any wipes. That doesn't mean I advocate for low DPS. I actively attempt to DPS to the very best of my ability regardless of what class I'm playing. Being a human being, sometimes I am distracted. Or tired. Or just make mistakes. We literally all do. I hope that if you ever run into an hour long queue--because believe me, they do exist--and suffer a few minutes of distraction, the rest of your party will be kinder to you than you would be to them.

Nor does saying this stuff mean I don't think we should encourage players to improve. If I see something glaringly wrong with someone else's playing, I politely point it out and really sincerely hope they'll fix the problem as soon as possible. I ask for Foe Requiem when I'm not getting it. I point out missing poisons and heavy thrust, etc.

You know what I don't do though? Kick people for failing to improve on the spot. Because doing so does nothing for our community. It doesn't cause sweeping improvements in people's play styles, it doesn't make your dungeons so amazingly faster, and it doesn't make the game a fun place to be for new players or players who, for whatever their reason, be it disability or just plain old skill level, can't meet your specific expectations.

There are a lot of ways to improve the overall quality of players in this game. Kicking people left and right is not one of those ways.

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

Bro, I'm not shifting the topic in the slightest? My original post that you are supposedly responding to literally stated this exact thing??

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Then why even bring up disability if that's not the point of the argument? lol


This is just like bringing up the Holocaust for no reason. If you don't want people to talk about it then don't bring it up if it's not even central to your argument in the first place.

This might be a shocker but I don't even care about your so-called "primary point". You brought up disability which is a really weird and irrelevant argument. Hence people jumped on it. If you didn't talk about disability I won't even bother replying.

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Originally Posted by Skyrior

Then why even bring up disability if that's not the point of the argument? lol


This is just like bringing up the Holocaust for no reason. If you don't want people to talk about it then don't bring it up if it's not even central to your argument in the first place.

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It was one example in a paragraph that also included such examples as "being distracted" and "playing outside of your personal comfort zone." Not my fault you jump on the word "disability" like it kicked your puppy and stole your job. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

It was one example in a paragraph that also included such examples as "being distracted" and "playing outside of your personal comfort zone." Not my fault you jump on the word "disability" like it kicked your puppy and stole your job. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Not really. I literally don't care about your primary point. I only care that you used a bad argument to convey your point. Your argument is like saying we should ban chemistry because the Holocaust happened.

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Originally Posted by Skyrior

Not really. I literally don't care about your primary point. I only care that you used a bad argument to convey your point. Your argument is like saying we should ban chemistry because the Holocaust happened.

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Hang on, let me go make popcorn for this. The sheer bizarre heights these examples are reaching is probably the best entertainment I've had in weeks.

(Also, if you don't care about my main point at all, why are you spending time trying to assess whether or not my argument was a good one? It's completely pointless?)

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

Hang on, let me go make popcorn for this. The sheer bizarre heights these examples are reaching is probably the best entertainment I've had in weeks.

(Also, if you don't care about my main point at all, why are you spending time trying to assess whether or not my argument was a good one? It's completely pointless?)

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I'm using ridiculous examples to show how ridiculous your disability example is.

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Originally Posted by Skyrior

I'm using ridiculous examples to show how ridiculous your disability example is.

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https://media.tenor.co/images/8482ef...6d91/tenor.gif

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

https://media.tenor.co/images/8482ef...6d91/tenor.gif

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lol anyways glad to see you abandon the disability argument after everyone called you out on it

I don't know about you guys, but when I use DF, I assume that everyone else in the party are drooling new idiots who can barely press the right buttons. And then be pleasantly surprised when proven otherwise.

Duty Finder is alot like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get.

Oh boy, why is so hard for certain people to accept that using DF is like a dice roll and all you can do is deal with it? From my experience (EU) extremely bad parties are rare, yeah at times a dungeon take like an extra 5/10 minutes but thats about it. If you don't want to deal with this stop using DF and form a premade, no excuses, for a dungeon you only need three more players. If you don't have enough contacts make more and if you can't improve your social skills.

Also, you should accept that some people are just not that good even when they are traying their best, thats why basic content is so easy.

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Originally Posted by Keyln

I don't know about you guys, but when I use DF, I assume that everyone else in the party are drooling new idiots who can barely press the right buttons. And then be pleasantly surprised when proven otherwise.

Duty Finder is alot like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get.

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And just like those chocolates, if that one you thought was a caramel is a little crunchy, do not investigate too closely....ignorance is bliss.

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Originally Posted by Skyrior

lol anyways glad to see you abandon the disability argument after everyone called you out on it

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Only because I'm literally at work and have nothing better to do with my time currently, I'll actually try to make some form of logic out of this inanity. First, let's ignore the fact that disability was just one small fraction of my argument and pretend, like you seem to want to do, that it was the be all and end all of my point.

What part of that argument is "ridiculous" to you? Please explain, in detail, how being sympathetic to other players' difficulties is irrelevant and suggesting that maybe kicking others shouldn't be our first choice is "ridiculous." I really want to know. Someone not too long ago posted on these exact forums about having hand tremors affect his playing. I myself have vision issues that make it extremely difficult to distinguish similar colors when they overlap, like the icicle circles in Shiva. While I adjusted for it, many people can't simply adjust their disabilities away.

Are people with disabilities ever going to be the majority? No, of course not. But does that mean they deserve to be kicked left and right from duty finder for not meeting your personal standards?

So please elaborate. I would love to hear more about how you think special needs players shouldn't exist and how even suggesting that people shouldn't be kicked for minor reasons because you don't know what their story is behind the screen is utterly insane of me.

(And just... from a logical standpoint, because I can't stop myself from wondering how you fail to see the connection here... From a sheer logical standpoint, my argument was "Our knee-jerk reaction shouldn't be to kick people from duty finder any time someone's play merely inconveniences us because we don't know their stories behind the screen and kicking like this can do more to hurt the friendliness of the community than it can do to help players improve." How does disability NOT fit into "not knowing their stories"? Like, please, explain how disability does not fit into that argument? I actively do not understand how you could fail to see the connection here.)

For a different perspective...

I've been levelling up all jobs at roughly the same time as I play through the game. I'm not a new new player (I started playing at the end of 2015, but then took a 10 month long break around April 2016 - So i've been playing roughly 7/8 months total) and although I am level 60 on another character, i've yet to reach end game at all.

Now, whilst I was levelling BLM (and Thaumaturge), I read the tooltips, I got the idea of going between fire and ice. "Hey, it's a bit like Boomkins" I thought to myself. So there I was, in dungeons going back and forth between fire and ice. When I was a high enough level to have fire3 and ice3 suddenly it was ridiculous. I was just spamming two buttons.

"This can't be right" I thought to myself, yet no-one seemed to be bringing it up in the dungeons. No mentors pointed out I was doing it wrong. No-one said a single word to me. Heck, I even got commendations at the end of runs.
If it weren't for the fact that I have prior game knowledge and experience that made me go "...hang on a minute", I would have just kept right on as I was. Instead, I looked up a guide and realised how I was actually supposed to play and my damage now seems a lot better for it.


I get the feeling that the reactions of a few have been assumed to be the actions of the many. Maybe every single dungeon you've done where you've suggested people do this or that has been met with foul remarks. Or maybe you are just assuming that will be the case after a few bad experiences. I know that in every single dungeon I've done, no-one has ever pointed out that I or anyone else in the group is playing wrong. There has been the odd ocassion when someone has said tacts. Whilst I've been healing I have said tacts for a few people, and I've never had or seen any nastiness.

Maybe it's all just at end game. I don't know.

What I do know, is that the attitude of people on the forums has not even slightly matched up with my experiences in game.

There is a reason bards do not want to use songs most of the time because paeon and ballad both lower the bards damage by 10%.

Duty Finder can and will scrape the bottom of the barrel to assemble your party. As a healer, I'm actually a little grateful I got sorted into parties with bads when I was new as it helped me learn MP management/memorize where my OHSHIT keys were lol

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Originally Posted by Zumi

There is a reason bards do not want to use songs most of the time because paeon and ballad both lower the bards damage by 10%.

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I stop singing Foes when its obvious I have a zero dps healer in a caster-less dungeon run.

Lol the only thing worth paying attention to here was people backpeddling to hide their shameful lack of a real life. Get away from the PC/Console once in a while? The way some of you talk about gaming is almost embarrassing. Perhaps you need addiction counselling?

For example; 3 days running for 12 hours straight is 'Ill' alright. In that it will make you bloody Ill...(aside from utter bs as justification and a sharp response, must have hit a nerve there whoever posted first!).... I wouldn't play that long if I was perfectly healthy/ Try opening the front door sometime - there's a world outside! Trust me; nobody who plays that long when they are sick, isn't playing ridiculous hours beside. Less lies please. People might take it seriously.

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Originally Posted by kupokage

The only epidemic is the playerbase defending the MNK in Sohm HM with an Antiquated i170 and the WHM with crafting gear in Haukke NM healing through Cleric Stance.

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This. This. This. This. This.

I've slowly but surely come to the realization that the people who defend bad play and promote mediocrity like it was some kind of academy award are just as bad, if not worse, than a terrible player.

Terrible players will continue to fester in the DF for as long as the community enables the behaviour. For every Willy White Knight that tells me to lay off the DRG wearing iLvl38 VIT accessories in a Level 60 duty, the BRD that lost his voice, and the WHM with a terrible case of the Sylphies, that's yet another duty these players have completed on the backs of everyone else and another step to endgame they're woefully unprepared for.

Human nature dictates that we will always take the path of least resistance. If given the choice, any bane of a good player's existence will pick "queue up for the thing" vs "Hrm, I should probably see how I can improve myself."

That is why my mentor crown is in the bin, and I leave any duty with deadweight players on sight. I personally refuse to be an enabler for the behaviour anymore.

If you want to be the person to coddle these kinds of players, then good for you, but then you have no right to moan when those players are shitting up your Zurvan/Savage Party Finder runs.

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Originally Posted by Mindiori

Lol the only thing worth paying attention to here was people backpeddling to hide their shameful lack of a real life. Get away from the PC/Console once in a while? The way some of you talk about gaming is almost embarrassing. Perhaps you need addiction counselling?

For example; 3 days running for 12 hours straight is 'Ill' alright. In that it will make you bloody Ill...(aside from utter bs as justification and a sharp response, must have hit a nerve there whoever posted first!).... I wouldn't play that long if I was perfectly healthy/ Try opening the front door sometime - there's a world outside! Trust me; nobody who plays that long when they are sick, isn't playing ridiculous hours beside. Less lies please. People might take it seriously.

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Get off your high horse.

From what I have seen players avoid dungeons cause they have long waits and the players aren't all that good often. So they level a job from 1 to 60 in potd, they don't read the new skills as they go through and never learn them. potd doesn't require a light party like dungeons and the content is played much differently. When they are at 60 they have a main hand but now they have no relevant gear. So now they are in level 60 content with never having learned their jobs skills and no gear.
There use to be a quest at level 5 that was a bit of a gear check. you had to have certain items of a certain ilvl or higher on to continue the MSQ. Maybe they should bring that back every 5 levels or so to continue. As for skills, there has been a massive drop in skill level. It as if many players just don't care anymore. The game never teaches players to learn a skill in the job quest and all you can hope for is that they read the tool tips.

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Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

No I'm not. I also believe that players should strive to be good, and play the game as intended, but it has to be understood that there is an inherent risk when you decide to play this game, or literally do anything at all...anywhere, in anything... when you are doing it with random people you don't know. That's just a given. If you want to be upset over that, then be my guest. If you aren't willing to accept that if you use DF, there is a good chance you'd run into people who don't know what their doing, then you're only doing yourself a disservice by using DF.

That's just called maturity.

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It's also mature to actually try, and not intentionally slow up your other party members, that's all the OP and myself are saying. Please try. Instead of hiding behind the DF blanket of anonymity and protection. We aren't saying everyone had to be amazing, but instead to keep in mind it's an MMO and you are playing with others.

I'm saying if someone KNOWS they are going to be a hindrance maybe they should preform. And if you are learning a class still, take advice.

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

. :/.

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1: You say we don't know the story of the person we play in duty finder. Did you know that Yoshida got very praised for having the game easier than most games out there, especially disabled players? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogCRNvghbiw&feature=youtu.be Look at that link. The player who made this video also posted on reddit, praising the team for making it easier for disabled players. So stop your white knighting there.
2: I have dyslexia as well, so please...the description on the skills/cds are well informed enough to understand, another bad excuse.
3: A player that has 1 or 2 ilvl 60 but they enter on a class that's ilvl 270, isnt their sub class this is mostlikely a main class if anything.
4: They don't have to tell anyone their stories, we never asked for it either and you make it sound like over 60% YESS 60%!!!! of the players are disabled.
5: My room mates and my gf talks to me while I do dungeons too, ofc I get distracted enough for a short time, but does it make me play bad through out the dungeons? Hell no and if I was going to be distracted for a while, I would ask if they could wait for me if not I would leave. So yet another bad excuse.
6: Leechers happens most of the time, more than most people say they are. In fact you make the leechers just leech more, because you happen to give them excuse for doing so. How about helping people improve and let them know they need to improve, instead of coming with bunch of excuses.
7:Kupokage happened to get some experience where people shouted at him/her, just like people do it to me. Is it optimal? Not really, but for sure should be a WAKEUP CALL. If you want people to stop harras you or prove them wrong, then do so, don't ignore the issue, too many does. This is without being shit talked to or being given advice in a nice way.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

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1) Being praised for making the game accessible is a great thing. That's why we should continue to keep the game accessible by finding alternative ways to help poor players improve their performance, rather than turning to vote kicking anyone whose play we dislike.
2) Not everyone's disability/disability level is the same? Just because you can do something doesn't mean everyone else can? I mean, some people who lose an arm are still just as coordinated as people who have two arms, but some people who lose an arm are not and have to work very hard to get coordination back. No one person can represent an entire category of people.
3) If someone obviously leeches while wearing 270 gear, okay, kick them? I never argued that obvious trolls shouldn't be handled like obvious trolls. But, then again, this game throws gear at anyone who asks for it, so an item level number really has nothing to do with a player's skill level or lack thereof...
4) I have no idea where in the world you're getting the number 60%, absolutely no idea, so I'm just going to /shrug to this.
5) Good for you? I guess you're just better than everyone else who can't play perfectly while distracted. Here's a gold star, I suppose.
6)

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

How about helping people improve and let them know they need to improve, instead of coming with bunch of excuses.

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I mean... okay...

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

Not saying there aren't plenty of sub-par players in this game, but... did you, at any point, try talking to these people in a polite and friendly way to get these problems solved? If you notice an issue, you can reduce the likelihood of it happening to other people by (politely) sharing what you know and improving the community overall.

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

Nor does saying this stuff mean I don't think we should encourage players to improve. If I see something glaringly wrong with someone else's playing, I politely point it out and really sincerely hope they'll fix the problem as soon as possible. I ask for Foe Requiem when I'm not getting it. I point out missing poisons and heavy thrust, etc.

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7) Or we could just... not harass other people? If it's "not optimal" as you note, why support shit talking? Why not focus on other, more optimal ways to improve your fellow players' performance, like better in-game checks for poor play style and skill level, like many others on this forum have suggested? Like I said in my post you so kindly cherry-picked, some people will get a wake up call from being yelled at. But others will just quit, and that sucks, because if they'd been handled another way, maybe they could have become better players in the long-run. I'd really rather not be part of a community where throwing shit on anyone who doesn't play as well as you personally want is the very first line of communication, thanks.

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

Friendly reminder that you don't know the story of anyone you party with in duty finder.

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That's an excuse. You literally described one player out of 10,000 or more.

No I'm talking about the derps who can play just fine. You know the ones.. they'll use swiftcast rez to get someone up in Palace simply because they need them to be alive to progress the floor. But then go back to their lazy 1 or 2 button spam. If someone can swiftcast rez, that tells me they can read tooltips fine. That tells me they can put 2 and 2 together.

I can tell a newbie. I can tell when someone has issues. And I can tell a dork who's there just for themselves, the ones who go 'lol whatever' when you correct them. A disabled person isn't going to be jerk in chat. Unless they've got some crazy mental disorder, but they don't need to be in the general population if they're that bad off. Vote kicking them would be a favor to them.

No, making an argument for disabilities is just an excuse to not take responsibility. Those days are over. Everyone is accountable now. Let that be known. We don't need the devs. We don't need excuses. Let the vote kicks commence.

If the green dinosaur doesn't like it, and takes out the feature. We'll go back to doing premades and let the leeches play with jerks. Simple as that. Power is in our hands to fix this either way.

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

1) thanks.

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1: Yes, but since you brought up disabled people, look at this guy. He's an amazing player and hes a player people should look up to, not only in game but in life itself. Kudos to that guy, really impressed.
2: That's true, but then again, you make it sound like 90% of the bad players are disabled when they arent.
3: That's what people do and we also talk about people who say they don't leech but play well enough. When you are lvl 60, you dont spam fire 3 on the boss. Or cast blizard 4 then fire 4 then bliz 4 etc. Or 1 2 3 combo on DRG for xample. This isn't about all about leeching, this is about people not wanting to improve on purpose, which I find very toxic in my opinion. As a community, we should help the players to find their way to rotations and so on, but very hard when people gives tham the very same excuses you brought up. Disabled, can't read etc the list goes on.
4: I just bring a random number, but the scary part is, the way I've met players in the past and recently, it's scary how accure that number can be.
5: Did you read what I said? I told you, if you know you will be distracted through out the run, you kindly ask for them to wait, if not you leave out, obviously out of respect. You don't waste peoples time.
6: Oh trust me, many people including myself have tried. Let me dig and I'll find some screenshots. Obviously I've met people who accepted the help and they turned out to be one of the best players now! Not only that the game is way more fun knowing they perfom well enough.
7: Like I said, people who tried to tell people they need a little kick on the butt to improve, in a very nice way, but some people end up saying, blabla my sub, blabla don't tell me how to play or I will tell you. I'm not saying it's good to tell people straight up they are bad and be mean about it. It does happen yes, but the issue is, people IGNORE it. If you get told 10-20-30-40 etc times, it should wake you up, not make you sit back. I'm not saying it's the way it should be done, far from it, I'm saying it should wake people up. I'm all up for helping people, so are others, but it's hard when EXCUSES keeps coming their way and they just go on the boat of excuses and think.. hey it's all good.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

No, making an argument for disabilities is just an excuse to not take responsibility.

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I really don't understand how people have such bad tunnel vision on this forum. It's like y'all saw the word "disability" and started foaming at the mouth so hard you couldn't see past your own bubbles. I mentioned two other, far larger categories in my post: distracted players and nervous players. These aren't 1 in 10,000. All kinds of people have all kinds of shit going on in real life that might throw off their gaming. Sometimes just having a bad day at work can make it hard to perform as well as you normally would? How would kicking them improve that? And people play off-classes they're not super confident with all the time, which can badly affect their game play--but they can't become better without playing that class more. How would kicking them improve that?

My point was never that no one deserves a kick ever. My point was always "Are you really improving the community by vote kicking anyone who merely inconveniences you?" Will vote kicking a boat load of people you'll likely never party with again really help them become better players? Will it make the community better in any way?

I just honestly don't think so, and that's been my opinion this whole time.

Distracted players? You mean the netflix people? No excuse. Votekick commenced.
If you wanna watch stuff, go watch your stuff. If you wanna play the game,play the game. Not both, unless you can actually handle
it without being a burden on everyone else. Same goes for your invading room mates etc.
If you're not horribly bad, I wont kick you anyway. But if you are, you deserve the kick.

Nervous players? Right, everyone is nervous to join an anonymous dungeon finder.
If someone heavily underperforms,I observe them to see if I can find any obvious mistakes.
And if I do, I tell them nicely.
If I get anything along the lines "lel,whatever", "I play how i want", "its muh sub" ==> Votekick \o/

If they take my advice and try, we're good. No,they do not need to double their dps instantly, but if
I tell a dragoon to keep Heavy Thrust up,he shouldnt need 2 hours of practise to manage to do that.
Heck, I've "wasted" 20 mins the other week and I did it gladly, because I taught a completely clueless paladin how to be
a much better tank. He seemed happy and grateful about it, considering he showered me in thank yous and commended me.
Yeah, I'd say he was nervous, but i ensured him that I dont mind us wiping while hes figuring out his trial and error.

But when it gets to the point that a lvl 60 player's dps is lower than what a lvl 50 player can do and is ignoring half of his skills,
thats when I wont bother saying anything and commence the votekick right away. Seriously, I mean it. When a lvl 50 can do MORE dmg,
theres really no excuse that justifies having to talk that person. That person has to be slacking on purpose, if I can outperform
him by far just pressing 1-2-3 on a dummy. (yeah,I do that sometimes after encountering ppl like that just to prove a point to myself).


Bottom line: I say something when I feel someone is struggling, if that person is nervous, then he obviously cares about his performance
and will accept advice. If not => bye o/


PS: Just wanna generally mention that in around an estimate of 70% of cases whenever I run roulettes (usually daily, almost all of them), I outdps at least one of the two dps classes as a healer.

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Originally Posted by Faliandra

Bottom line: I say something when I feel someone is struggling, if that person is nervous, then he obviously cares about his performance
and will accept advice. If not => bye o/

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I think the problem is that we're all talking about different groups of people. Like I mentioned in my post way back when, I'm all for kicking obvious leeches and jerks. In fact, there's screenshot evidence on these forums of me instigating a vote kick for someone who actively refused to play his class correctly and deliberately trolled the party to the point it was impossible to succeed in the duty.

But where do you draw the line? It's great if you only ever use vote kick to kick people who explicitly refuse to take your good advice and act like dipshits in the party. But when it turns into "I'm going to kick anyone I see not meeting my DPS standards," or "That person didn't use that skill, we should kick him!" that's what I (personally!) take issue with. Can you really always tell someone deliberately leeching from someone just doing a really crappy job because they honestly don't realize how bad they're doing? Even if it's really annoying, is it really fair to kick someone just because they're inconveniencing you by being slower than you'd like? I hate a long expert roulette as much as the next person, but I don't just start kicking when I realize I've been paired with someone who is going to make my run twenty minutes longer. I sigh and get on with life. It's this kind of kick that I have issue with, not kicking a jerk who insults someone for giving advice in party chat.

If you're reaching into the grab bag of randoms to fill spaces because you don't have a full party for a duty, you have to be aware that you're not going to get paired with angels every time. Sometimes your duty is going to be 20 minutes longer because DF paired you with a really sub-par player.

Vote kicking will never stop that from happening, not in a million years. It might make your immediate run faster, but it won't solve the OP's "epidemic." And I just don't see it helping make any long-lasting difference in the long run. Like I said, I don't want to end up in a community where we just hover our cursors over the vote kick looking for any plausible fault to justify kicking. That's just not the kind of environment I'd like to play in. If it's the kind of environment you'd like to play in, okay I guess. We can agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Oh boy, why is so hard for certain people to accept that using DF is like a dice roll and all you can do is deal with it? From my experience (EU) extremely bad parties are rare, yeah at times a dungeon take like an extra 5/10 minutes but thats about it. If you don't want to deal with this stop using DF and form a premade, no excuses, for a dungeon you only need three more players. If you don't have enough contacts make more and if you can't improve your social skills.

Also, you should accept that some people are just not that good even when they are traying their best, thats why basic content is so easy.

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We don't have to deal with it. If someone is being bad and refuses to accept helpful advice on how to improve, then we can kick them.

I recall a time in Gubal Library (level 60 as a reminder) where the party I was in had a Ruin Mage who never used DoT's or any of their Level 52-60 skills (they were level 60. Had the Kinna weapon). I repeatedly tried explaining, rather nicely, that they need to use DoT's, as well as re-summon their pet that had de-summoned on the first boss because of the wall. By the second boss, I was still trying to explain to them they needed to use DoT's... and then they told me to shut up. At that point, I 100% knew they weren't going to accept any helpful advice/suggestions and because a Ruin Mage is pretty much useless, I initiated the vote kick (it went through).

I understand that it may have appeared I was nagging, but I cannot accept carrying a Ruin Mage who doesn't even re-summon their pets. I've also decided that if the person I'm trying to help doesn't listen to helpful advice/suggestions by the second boss (or uses "my sub my way" at any point), then I'll be initiating a vote kick. I do not pay my sub to carry Ruin Mages, Blizzard Mages, III Mages etc (which is thankfully a rare occurrence. Most of my DF runs are quick, efficient and quiet).

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

But where do you draw the line? It's great if you only ever use vote kick to kick people who explicitly refuse to take your good advice and act like dipshits in the party. But when it turns into "I'm going to kick anyone I see not meeting my DPS standards," or "That person didn't use that skill, we should kick him!" that's what I (personally!) take issue with. Can you really always tell someone deliberately leeching from someone just doing a really crappy job because they honestly don't realize how bad they're doing?

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Well, I think I have a good idea where I draw the line because I have numbers to work with. I know what real good dps looks like, I know what average/so-so dps looks like and I know whats outright abysmal.
Outright abysmal is when they do less than a lvl 50 or just slightly more than a lvl 50.

"so-so" is about half or even a bit less than half of what a real good dps averages. I tolerate that, even though its not good.
But its not abysmal. Theyre not facerolling, so its fine.

One solution, imo, is to rework the class quest instances to make you perform your job and use your respective class skills. This would be most beneficial to tanks and healers because those instances currently don't even require you to perform your actual role. NPCs do that for you. The class quest instances are the perfect opportunity to teach players how their class plays, they're just not utilized properly. I think there should be stipulations to completing these instances. Make tanks actually tank, make healers heal, and require each dps class to use certain skills in a certain order. For example, make NIN use 5 Raitons in one instance, and 2 successful TA in a later quest. For drg, each quest requires them keep up heavy thrust and use certain combos a number of times. And you could do that with all the classes. Each class works a certain way, so make the class quest instances force them to play it properly. At the very least, it might take some players from terrible to decent. You can't make a lazy player get better, but you can give the players who care a better introduction to how each class works.

There's just no incentive for them to get better. The "casual content" is easy enough that you can clear it without knowing how to play your job. We had Titan Hard for the relic which was actually hard at the time (party for mechanics, party for net issues at the time). The end result is that SE decided to never have challenging content in the relic/anima quests ever again. We had Steps of Faith which demanded some basic coordination and talking in party chat. The end result is that it was too demanding to talk to other party members, so they nerfed it to the point that you can clear it without knowing what to do.

So long as you can get tome gear and complete the story without learning anything, a sizable portion of the playerbase will never actually learn anything. Self-motivated people will thrive as they always do, but that's because of the type of person they are and has nothing to do with FFXIV itself.

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

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Because the majority of players are not disabled and hence caring about their backstory is irrelevant and useless 95% of the time. Hence your entire "backstory" argument is weak. The disability part is icing on the cake because it is so far out irrelevant to what the daily DF experience is like.

The moment you show evidence that a plurality of players who are bad at the game are such because they're disabled or have anxiety issues, you name it, I'll be convinced that you should care about their background.

Until then, I'm assuming every player I meet is an able-bodied person and will treat them accordingly.

As a sidenote your "roommate disturbing" argument is even worse. Either you tell your roommate to wait or tell your party to wait/leave the dungeon.

Too bad if you waited one hour for your queue. Just suck it up.

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Originally Posted by Crysten

This. This. This. This. This.

I've slowly but surely come to the realization that the people who defend bad play and promote mediocrity like it was some kind of academy award are just as bad, if not worse, than a terrible player.

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You're assuming the enablers even care or run savage content lol

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Originally Posted by kupokage

The only epidemic is the playerbase defending the MNK in Sohm HM with an Antiquated i170 and the WHM with crafting gear

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Literally just encountered a tank in expert roulette who snuck into expert dungeons with inappropriate accessories and couldn't be bothered to throw on some VIT stuff after sneaking in. What clued me off? The fact that I had more HP than the tank as a caster.

Please. This has to stop. I left that group.

I remember doing Sastasha for the first time and had not a single idea how to do my role. Next dungeon comes, the Deepcroft, in which I am guided by people my in FC who are farther along in the game and are leveling roulette. By this point, I learn the functions, knowing that I need to cast Protect first before the run begins as a healer, then simply filling the tank and the DPS when necessarily while avoiding the attack zone. Next dungeon comes, Copperbell. Cast protect, one member exclaims "Finally! FFS" etc. Got a few recommendations afterwards. So on, so forth. Learning has its benefits. for me, it's get the right gear, prep the team up as a Healer, do the run and refill HP, rinse, repeat. It becomes straightforward when you take the initiative to play your role and play it well. It really is a learning experience, especially if you choose to apply the lessons. I even helped lower-level people in one run and I issued commendations to those folks.

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Originally Posted by Mindiori

Lol the only thing worth paying attention to here was people backpeddling to hide their shameful lack of a real life. Get away from the PC/Console once in a while? The way some of you talk about gaming is almost embarrassing. Perhaps you need addiction counselling?

For example; 3 days running for 12 hours straight is 'Ill' alright. In that it will make you bloody Ill...(aside from utter bs as justification and a sharp response, must have hit a nerve there whoever posted first!).... I wouldn't play that long if I was perfectly healthy/ Try opening the front door sometime - there's a world outside! Trust me; nobody who plays that long when they are sick, isn't playing ridiculous hours beside. Less lies please. People might take it seriously.

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Perhaps you need someone to lower your sodium levels?

This is one of the rudest posts I've ever seen. I guess you had nothing better to say so you resort to salty personal attacks? Nice job there...want a gold star?

What is happening in other player's personal lives is none of your business. What other's choose to spend their personal time on is also none of your business. Seriously. So maybe you need to take your own advice and not bother posting on a "game" forum.

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

My point was always "Are you really improving the community by vote kicking anyone who merely inconveniences you?" Will vote kicking a boat load of people you'll likely never party with again really help them become better players? Will it make the community better in any way?

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In my experience it works. I've been playing MMORPGs since 2001. When players stopped holding each other responsible, they started acting like entitled jerks. Vote kicking removes the entitlement and they have to make a choice:

1. Shape up.
2. Get Booted.

Its really that simple.

And its not like we have to vote kick for the smallest slight. I've only had to Invoke this ONCE in Two Months. You've probably vote kicked more people than I have in that time. And that was due to the guy verbally harassing me and trying to be carried by the rest of the group. Group chastised (jokingly) me for not vote kicking him EARLIER.

I have very small requirements. And from my experience in the DF, pretty much everyone has the same:

1. Queue up with the ability, capability, and willingness to complete the chosen goal.
2. Perform your role and job/class to the best of your ability.
3. Be willing to learn and work as a team.

That's pretty easy for anyone to attain. That's all people ask for. If you can't do those three things. You should be vote kicked. Plain and simple.

Found another gem on reddit which shows the entitlement quite nicely.

https://puu.sh/vEn8o/9b2a402bef.png

And then we should look the other way, just because they get snobby?
Hell nah, they get the boot until they reason up.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Found another gem on reddit which shows the entitlement quite nicely.
**snip**
And then we should look the other way, just because they get snobby?
Hell nah, they get the boot until they reason up.

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How significant is the difference - in a regular game setting? unless it's a gross difference that actually makes a material difference, I don't see the problem here.