Stop Making Should-Be Achievement Gear.."Optional Gear"

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I'm not going to comb through the EULA, but I think we've both made our points here. I do want to clarify that I have no issue with people complaining about the cash shop, or being unhappy with it. It just bothers me that people try to make it into an ethical argument. All that does is escalate things and divide people. I think we'd all be better off if we were just honest about what we want, particularly with ourselves.

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I want to look cute and dope AF, and I am willing to pay for it.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

Not true. You mention that this is how it is with SE and yet, FFXI continued to release new holiday event items and with each passing event you were able to obtain them if you missed out, all without having to pay extra.

This isn't a Square Enix thing, it's a Final Fantasy XIV 2.0 thing.

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And how many previous story NPC costumes was made in XI for free?

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Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira

I want to look cute and dope AF, and I am willing to pay for it.

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My sentiments too, pretty much. Nothing except the Far Eastern Matriarch gear has appealed to me on Mog store yet, so that's all I own. I think the WoW mounts are kinda underwhelming, so never bought those either. I don't get what's so hard about realizing that if you don't like stuff, don't buy it, and if the Mog store pisses you off on principle then you should either mass appeal to all the players in-game to boycott it in the hopes that these items will be added to in-game methods in the future, or just unsub and find a game that doesn't have microtransactions (GOOD LUCK, lel).

Way back when the store was introduced I even recall making a post saying, "this is your only chance to make sure this thing doesn't stick around, vote with your wallet and don't buy Odin even if you REALLY want it" then I logged in and saw like 50 people in Mor Dhona with it and realized idgaf, it works for f2p p2w crapfest games and it works here. People LOVE the opportunity to throw money at the screen to feel exclusive from others, whether it's cosmetics or Sword of Noob-beating+40. And given the prices on these items, it takes like half of them to pay what you're paying now, so of course the company is gonna follow where the money comes from.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

My sentiments too, pretty much. Nothing except the Far Eastern Matriarch gear has appealed to me on Mog store yet, so that's all I own. I think the WoW mounts are kinda underwhelming, so never bought those either. I don't get what's so hard about realizing that if you don't like stuff, don't buy it, and if the Mog store pisses you off on principle then you should either mass appeal to all the players in-game to boycott it in the hopes that these items will be added to in-game methods in the future, or just unsub and find a game that doesn't have microtransactions (GOOD LUCK, lel).

Way back when the store was introduced I even recall making a post saying, "this is your only chance to make sure this thing doesn't stick around, vote with your wallet and don't buy Odin even if you REALLY want it" then I logged in and saw like 50 people in Mor Dhona with it and realized idgaf, it works for f2p p2w crapfest games and it works here. People LOVE the opportunity to throw money at the screen to feel exclusive from others, whether it's cosmetics or Sword of Noob-beating+40. And given the prices on these items, it takes like half of them to pay what you're paying now, so of course the company is gonna follow where the money comes from.

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The issue with your post was the a huge majority who buy in the cash do not go on the forums. We are a very small portion of the game. The only time people come into the forums in droves is to mostly complain. So I can see why so many had the mount, but even if people did see the post they would have different opinions from your own. What you may see as unfair or over priced is not to others. As far as the Cash Shop goes...as long as it does not turn into actual content being sold (story, events, dungeons, raids, Etc.) or stronger gear, then I am fine with it. If that does happen then I will indeed join the Cash Shop rebels, but that line must be crossed first.

I came from wow and I am use to the cash shops. WoW forces you to pay for their story by buying crucial story plots. You want to know who Illidan is? Grab $150.00 because you are going to need to buy all 4 of the books (3 out of 4 are no longer published anymore), and Warcraft 3. If not then hope you enjoy trying to figure out what the twelve is going on.

Let's say for the sake of argument, SE keeps "removing" gears/emotes/whatevers from the in game drops/achievements/quests, then the value of your sub diminishes, and eventually you and other people will feel that the sub fee is no longer worth it, and leave the game. In that case SE will have to reevaluate what they should put in the base game to keep players subbed. You only need to evaluate the value of your sub fee against what's offered in the base game (excluding mogstation stuffs), if you think it's no longer worth it for you then the best thing for you to do would be unsubbing and finding a different game.

The fact that SE keeps adding those stuffs on mogstation means that it's profitable (many people buy them) while not really harming the number of subs (many people think what they get from the base game is still worth the sub fee). Will SE eventually go "too far" and put too many things on the mogstation while leaving the base game lacking? Maybe. Maybe not.

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

Person/s go to Theme/Rollercoaster Park: "I/we paid $60 a person to get in! What do you mean food and drink isn't free?! I HAVE to pay for merchandise as well?!? I HAVE to pay to play games?!? This is highway robbery!!"

The complaints about mogstation sound just as ridiculous to me as the above.

Just because you paid to get access doesn't mean there will not be any other charges.

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Alternatively,

Thank you for paying for your Netflix subscription this month. What would you like to watch? Breaking Bad? Please pay an additional $15 to watch this program.

Your example is pretty much as bad as it gets as you're comparing subscriptions to an entry to something plus additional unrelated products like food and or toys/apparel/etc. Of course additional products would cost more. No one wants to get FFXV for free because they pay for their XIV subscription. About the same relation as a theme park and its merchandise.

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Originally Posted by Alerion

Alternatively,

Thank you for paying for your Netflix subscription this month. What would you like to watch? Breaking Bad? Please pay an additional $15 to watch this program.

Your example is pretty much as bad as it gets as you're comparing subscriptions to an entry to something plus additional unrelated products like food and or toys/apparel/etc. Of course additional products would cost more. No one wants to get FFXV for free because they pay for their XIV subscription. About the same relation as a theme park and its merchandise.

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Uh, no. Netflix is a platform specifically to watch TV and movies, which promises a single price for unlimited access. Your example explicitly breaks that promise.

NPC outfits were never available in game. Are they not therefore "additional products" that would cost more?

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Uh, no. Netflix is a platform specifically to watch TV and movies, which promises a single price for unlimited access. Your example explicitly breaks that promise.

NPC outfits were never available in game. Are they not therefore "additional products" that would cost more?

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You missed the point by quite a bit. Comparing subscription based services to entry + actual, physical unrelated items is comparing apples to oranges. No, I do not consider in game items additional products. I do, however, consider the OST, plushies, tickets to fanfests and so on additional products.

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Originally Posted by Alerion

You missed the point by quite a bit. Comparing subscription based services to entry + actual, physical unrelated items is comparing apples to oranges. No, I do not consider in game items additional products. I do, however, consider the OST, plushies, tickets to fanfests and so on additional products.

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Well I consider some in game items additional products. I guess we're at an impasse!

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Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira

but they're not in-game items if you can't get them in-game. :)

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This is an excellent point, lol

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Originally Posted by Alerion

Alternatively,

Thank you for paying for your Netflix subscription this month. What would you like to watch? Breaking Bad? Please pay an additional $15 to watch this program.

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Kind of a bad example, as netflix has tiers of subscriptions. The basic plan will not get you everything, if you want full access to their library, you gotta pay the extra fee for their dvd service :P


:edit:
actually, Netflix is a great example. They used to include everything in their sub fee, but once the powers that be realized the profit in splitting the two services, they removed features from the basic plan. You want streaming? $7.99. You want access to the DVD library? + $5.99

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Originally Posted by Alerion

You missed the point by quite a bit. Comparing subscription based services to entry + actual, physical unrelated items is comparing apples to oranges. No, I do not consider in game items additional products. I do, however, consider the OST, plushies, tickets to fanfests and so on additional products.

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Then that's a matter of opinion vs. opinion. Gear designed specifically for story NPC's is just that. Gear designed for that characters model and size. Having to adjust said outfit/s to fit other races and all of their adjustable heights takes time. Therefore it can be seen as an additional product/s.

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Originally Posted by Alerion

No, I do not consider in game items additional products. I do, however, consider the OST, plushies, tickets to fanfests and so on additional products.

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but they're not in-game items if you can't get them in-game. :)

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Originally Posted by Rokke

Kind of a bad example, as netflix has tiers of subscriptions. The basic plan will not get you everything, if you want full access to their library, you gotta pay the extra fee for their dvd service :P

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Final Fantasy XIV also has tiers of subscriptions.

http://zantetsuken.net/wp-content/up...ampaign-04.jpg

The Netflix basic plan will get you 1 screen, lower quality resolution but full access. For two completely different services, they are pretty even actually.

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Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira

but they're not in-game items if you can't get them in-game. :)

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Cute, but "in-game" means usable in the game. Good post though.

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Originally Posted by Alerion

The Netflix basic plan will get you 1 screen, lower quality resolution but full access. For two completely different services, they are pretty even actually.

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My edit included the plan I meant -

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:edit:
actually, Netflix is a great example. They used to include everything in their sub fee, but once the powers that be realized the profit in splitting the two services, they removed features from the basic plan. You want streaming? $7.99. You want access to the DVD library? + $5.99

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the base price for streaming is 7.99. It used to include dvds. They axed that feature years ago and now charge an extra fee if you want both. If you search for something and it says something along the lines of "this is not included in the streaming service", you'll have to pay an extra fee to get access to their DVD library. You do not get access to everything under the basic streaming plan anymore.

I agree with you OP but sadly most of the community at this point does not. Many people that are playing this game are used to microtranactions in games and don't remember the days when paying for a game got you everything. And since the sheep continue to pay for these items and insult those of use that complain about them there is no reason for SE to stop.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

My edit included the plan I meant -

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I understand what you're getting at. While I don't care for that much either, I am inclined to still disagree on the heart of the issue as there goes that whole physical tangible item thing again. You get complete access to the streaming library with a basic plan.

People have been convinced it's a good thing to get charged extra for intangibles you're already paying for, but I'm not sure I can ever agree with that especially when it was not always that way. We know it's based on greed yet we still support it. When you're being sold literal colors and still like what you're being fed, what more can be said? I'm just glad nothing on the store appeals to me personally.

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Originally Posted by spf1200

I agree with you OP but sadly most of the community at this point does not. Many people that are playing this game are used to microtranactions in games and don't remember the days when paying for a game got you everything. And since the sheep continue to pay for these items and insult those of use that complain about them there is no reason for SE to stop.

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You are literally insulting us right now you hypocrite and every time someone brings up anything with the cash shop the wave of people who dislike the cash shop come over to spread their distaste. Further note games back in the day didn't have Cash shops because the current idea of a modern cash shop was not invented yet and it was not possible to implement it due to technology limitations.

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Originally Posted by spf1200

I agree with you OP but sadly most of the community at this point does not. Many people that are playing this game are used to microtranactions in games and don't remember the days when paying for a game got you everything. And since the sheep continue to pay for these items and insult those of use that complain about them there is no reason for SE to stop.

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I'd rather be a content sheep than a pigeon who gets his feathers ruffled over optional items of all things

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Originally Posted by spf1200

I agree with you OP but sadly most of the community at this point does not. Many people that are playing this game are used to microtranactions in games and don't remember the days when paying for a game got you everything. And since the sheep continue to pay for these items and insult those of use that complain about them there is no reason for SE to stop.

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As long as we sheep pay for these items, the game makes more revenue and it doesn't cost you anything. You're welcome. :)

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Originally Posted by PotatoTree

First, how does Yoshi not having a say matter at all? Are these people from management not part of SE? We're complaining about SE here. And again, there is no transparency with the money here, and of course they don't need to be. But you assume that the money is going into this game, when for all you know it could be going into making some next mobile game.

I don't intend to change anything by complaining on the forums. They rarely listen to forum posts, and anyone who has a negative opinion has already left the game or is banned from the forum. It's just an echo chamber here.

I also clearly don't intend to change anything with microtransactions, as I'm obviously still paying for stuff and still playing the game here. I'm not strapped for cash or anything. But the triple dipping principle and how you and others seem to think this is not only the future of gaming, but that it's necessary, is very disappointing.

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Because financial matters are not handled by development teams. They are allocated a specific amount and told to produce content. Nevertheless, we have an example from Square Enix themselves in Deus Ex-- whose devs were told to include micro-transactions two weeks before the game's release. Another such example comes from EA's notorious time constraints and micromanagement of their development branches. Whomever designs gear is likely told to set aside something for the Mogstation or to make something specifically appealing to entice people into buying it. And no, I make no assumptions. I know what we pay doesn't go directly into the game. FFXIV more or less paid for FFXV and FFVII: Remake. That is simply how large corporations work. Frankly, so long as they continue to provide quality content to FFXIV, I don't particularly care. On the other hand, if it ever becomes clear they aren't focusing on XIV, I have the choice to stop supporting it.

While I have issues with how the forums are moderated. It's far from an echo chamber. We've had threads asking if Yoshi should be fired which spanned 30+ pages.

I never said it's necessary. I merely offered a pragmatic perspective. It's no different than in real world politics when people demand corporations be taxed higher. Why aren't they? Because those same corporations would simply up their prices. Micro-transactions are publishing companies looking to offset the increased costs of game development onto the customer in a manner with the least potential backlash.

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Originally Posted by spf1200

I agree with you OP but sadly most of the community at this point does not. Many people that are playing this game are used to microtranactions in games and don't remember the days when paying for a game got you everything. And since the sheep continue to pay for these items and insult those of use that complain about them there is no reason for SE to stop.

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Oh we remember. But this game isn't those games and the business has changed. This is hardly something exclusive to MMOs or even multiplayer games. Even single player games today (and back then) tac on DLC later for added cost. Honestly I think the people calling the cash shop here pay to win are absolutely insane and misinformed. They obviously haven't played some of the free to play MMOs I have where if one wanted to stay competitive at all they have to shell out THOUSANDS if not TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars to do so. We have it good. People need to quit complaining about COSMETIC items costing extra.

This is extremely simple and people don't seem to get it.

YOU ARE GETTING WHAT YOUR SUB PAYED FOR.

Almost all cosmetic items were developed outside the budget your subscription earns. They are developed on the bases of INCREASED returns to cover their expense. If those expenses weren't factored the item would have never been approved for development.

The only place an argument might apply is with old seasonal stuff and honestly it wouldn't bother me one way or another. I tend to get what I want from seasonal events for by actually playing them. However if you really wanted to nitpick, it can be argued that a current subscription never payed for the development since you weren't subbed at the time. Do remember, they weren't going to reoffer those items at all originally. People literally had threads asking for them to be added to the cash shop.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

This additional money has helped justify the moving of the US servers to a better location and the overall upgrade to all the servers we get in SB, as well as apparently a tripling of the budget they had in HW to make SB with. The cash shop also help finance the establishment of the EU servers in EU.

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While I believe SE made a statement saying that the cash shop helped facilitate the upgraded EU severs, no such statement was made for the NA servers. We also have no proof that the new NA location will be better. The cash shop may have funded the new NA servers, and the new NA servers may improve things, but we can't say yet that either of those things is true.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

While I believe SE made a statement saying that the cash shop helped facilitate the upgraded EU severs, no such statement was made for the NA servers. We also have no proof that the new NA location will be better. The cash shop may have funded the new NA servers, and the new NA servers may improve things, but we can't say yet that either of those things is true.

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They tripled FF14's budget for SB. For that to happen, the development teams had sufficient financial data to convince the corporate side of things that the investment was worth it. We are getting a lot system wise. I seriously doubt FF14's sub numbers have increased to the point that would justify it otherwise. Upgrades and moves like that aren't cheap and they are on top of the usual development costs.

This is the reality. If we want more for FF14, the games earnings have to be high enough to justify it. That means either A) a lot more players, B) a higher sub fee or C) additional revenue streams.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

They tripled FF14's budget for SB. For that to happen, the development teams had sufficient financial data to convince the corporate side of things that the investment was worth it. We are getting a lot system wise. I seriously doubt FF14's sub numbers have increased to the point that would justify it otherwise. Upgrades and moves like that aren't cheap and they are on top of the usual development costs.

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Yes, but did they triple the budget for Stormblood because FFXIV was making triple the profit, or simply because they stopped taking 2/3 of the profit away from XIV's development?

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

Just remember that those extra dollars people spend on the store are benfitting you directly by increasing the available budget for future FFXIV content.

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That would be nice, but as you said...

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

It's about expanding your business as a whole, not just one specific IP.

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We have no proof that (all) the money made from mog station is being used to make the game better, or even that (all of) our sub money is being used to make the game better. I believe it was outright stated that SE was stripping funding from XIV in order to make XV.

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

We have it good.

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I'd love you and others to take a look at WildStar's cash shop model.

No, a subscription model should only have a cash shop that doesn't affect gameplay (no, I don't consider "jump" potion or story skip potions to be affecting of gameplay, only time/grind savers).

I find it pointless to grind for a vanity item.

Of course, income from the Mogstation doesn't all go directly back into the game. Just like FFXIV wasn't funded by itself from scratch, or when it was brought down to remake it and be re-released as ARR.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

Yes, but did they triple the budget for Stormblood because FFXIV was making triple the profit, or simply because they stopped taking 2/3 of the profit away from XIV's development?

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I seriously doubt that the budget boost was suddenly because they decided to give FF14 'what it earned'. There are a lot of conspiracy theories but it wouldn't make financial sense to strip 2/3ds of a successful IP's budget away to invest in other areas. Certainly a portion but not 2/3rds. SE works a lot on looking at metrics and stats and setting up prediction models on how things are going to go. Its partially how the prioritise what content they develop. Content has a value based on how much people are actually going to play it. Things like budget allocation aren't done randomly. They are done based of earnings forecasts and predicted returns on investment.

When asking for a bigger budget, the primary consideration for the corporate side of things would be wether the net earnings justified additional investment. In that regard you can be sure that the additional revenue from the cash shop would have factored into the decision.

Saying the Cash Shop funded the new server moves and upgrades would be wrong. However they very much played a substancial role in justifying the authorisation of funds to make those investments.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

~snip~

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To tack onto your statement, people are so tunnel visioned. They see the game and think funds go only into the game, or they "should only go into the game." They don't consider the cost of doing business, like advertisement. PAX, E3, Tokyo Game Show, Fan Fest- all these take quite a substantial amount of funds to make happen that many people appreciate what the outcome is from those endeavors (how many MMOs actually show at those places, let alone a subscription based one?). Then when you take into account for expansions, what amounts to another game, I'm highly doubtful subscription costs alone could fund it. While they might, the amount of time needed to develop these things would certainly be longer.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

They don't consider the cost of doing business, like advertisement

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That's not even where funds are going, though. SE uses FFXIV to fund other games entirely, which honestly is a pretty cruddy deal for those of us who play no other SE games.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

That's not even where funds are going, though. SE uses FFXIV to fund other games entirely, which honestly is a pretty cruddy deal for those of us who play no other SE games.

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It's really silly to think that all the funds go back into the game and hinted as much in my other post.

You know, the line about FFXIV didn't fund itself from scratch. I think that went over your head just a little. However, you're making quite the bold statements; care to present the data to SE's financial record?

Don't misunderstand, which I think you will, I'm not saying all of FFXIV's funds go back into the game nor am I denying that their funds don't go into other SE titles. I'm very sure they do. However, by your logic, we'd never see another new IP by SE again.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

That's not even where funds are going, though. SE uses FFXIV to fund other games entirely, which honestly is a pretty cruddy deal for those of us who play no other SE games.

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I'd love to see where you found out that the funds don't go towards advertising at all. Got any links?

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

I'd love to see where you found out that the funds don't go towards advertising at all. Got any links?

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Not what I meant.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

That's not even where funds are going, though. SE uses FFXIV to fund other games entirely, which honestly is a pretty cruddy deal for those of us who play no other SE games.

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Except when profits from those other games come back to FFXIV for more development.

This is how a game company works. The portfolio MUST be diverse. One game cannot carry a company.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

snip

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I just wanted to make a little comment maybe not completely related to you, but close. One gentleman I know pays 5 subs worth a month moving and changing stuff across multiple WoW characters. I can't find the direct info but The people who actually pay into those Ville games on Facebook are minuscule. Yet they have been profitable in the past.

A company can afford to reduce the value of the sub. As long as they get a return from the other side. Also players who seem to embrace the side purchases don't seem to question cost to value ratio of what they get. "OOHH SINY!!" "What's 30 dollars, I can afford it." Not to question that for 30 dollars you can get a whole game not one item. So it is in a companies best interest to take advantage both sides of the field. Till they eventually have to admit that they are running a semi f2p game.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

That's not even where funds are going, though. SE uses FFXIV to fund other games entirely, which honestly is a pretty cruddy deal for those of us who play no other SE games.

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Your thinking of it wrong. All profits and losses from all their games will go into the same pool but individual IPs will have their profit and loss tracked separately as well as historical cost and projected income in the future. Based on that the corporate executive will allocate fund from the total pool based on the needs of the individual IPs and the projected long term returns. Simply put they will look at any IP and say 'this will give us more money at a certain time if we invest in it know'. That's how businesses run.

So you can argue a portion of FF14's earnings have helped cover other games but the reverse would be true too. Regardless though, FF14's budget would be decided based on its projected earnings and the expected profit and that includes revenue from the cash shop. Those earnings are what justify further major investment.

Honestly, I just feel that FFXIV's cash shop is horribly price gougey for what it's trying to be. I'm not even particularly against cash shops, but I AM against poor deals.

In WildStar, I subscribe to the Signature benefits. But I also earn Omnibits while playing the game that I've used to purchase every single dye, every costume, multiple pets and mounts, all holo-wardrobe/costume slot unlocks, all decor expansion unlocks, and several toys. I spent real money in the cash shop twice, when I felt like I wanted to demonstrate extra financial support for a particular decision Carbine made. And this is a game where I'm not even obligated to pay the subscription if I want to play the game. Oh and did I mention that every purchase is account-wide?

FFXIV's cash shop is just a horrible deal, and that is why I will never, ever spend money in it.

With the armor given to us by Tatatru not being what i had hoped and the final patch having droped without further mention of it, my fears that this particular item will make an appearance in the cash shop is very real. Any number of plots could have been easily used to have it given to us, however the fact it was made scalable to different bodies and still not made a quest completion reward shows me an unsettling future.

http://i.imgur.com/chNyHi4.png

http://i.imgur.com/ta7Es9r.png

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Originally Posted by Naunet

/snip

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I wouldn't look to Wildstar as a great example of a success story. The game doesn't even earn enough to be listed separately on NCSOFT's quarterly financial reports. Considering NCSOFT's past track record its surprising they haven't shuttered the game yet. Don't get me wrong, I like Wildstar and would probably play it if ping didn't make it almost completely unplayable for me, but they aren't a great example of a successful MMO model.

There is an argument to be made about the prices on the SE cash shop which could be valid. After all lower prices might end up meaning more items eventually sold. However without some data, which I doubt we will ever see, there is a lot of guess work to it.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

With the armor given to us by Tatatru not being what i had hoped and the final patch having droped without further mention of it my fears that this particular will make an appearance in the cash shop is very real. Any number of plots could have been easily used to have it given to us, however the fact it was made scalable to different bodies and still not made a quest completion reward shows me an unsettling future.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/chNyHi4.png[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/ta7Es9r.png[/IMG]

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They always said that 'Cosplay' sets would be through the cash shop. I think its almost certain they would never be a quest reward. Likewise Krile's coat will be a cash shop item. In that particular case they said its the only reason they are spending resources on developing it because it is technically fiddly to adapt for some reason.