I280 weapons were a mistake

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Originally Posted by Miste

Not all of the salt is due to those reasons.

I don't care about speed kills either and I don't care about "exclusives" or w/e

I do the savage content because I like it. I don't care about what other people have.

My main issue was I was really happy to have finished my relic and I assumed it would be the best weapon for at least a month.

9 days later and now I have to farm for i280 already if I want the best weapon available.

That is way too fast for anything to be invalidated in any game.

If they added the i280 at the end of March or something I would have zero complaints since I don't care about it being better than relic or savage...I just care that invalidating anything after only 9 days is just ridiculous.

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Yeah, exactly how I feel. Good stuff.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I just dont see it. I can't comprehend the absolute salt that people have. Its like someone shot their dog.

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Some may be a bit more passionate than others about it. Given the right issues/concerns, I can't say I wouldn't be one of them. But as I said it's really about proportional rewards to the time, effort, or skill required to obtain them. Raiding and relic ask more of players in all 3 regards than the Diadem does. Someone I know earlier joked about a Diadem "afk party", to wait out the random chance encounter for a 280. Might take time, yes, but still less time than the other two, and certainly less effort or skill.

And really, that's just not how it works or how it should be.

Of course, when 4.0 hits, it really won't matter, and it'll just be that groan-inducing Heavensward memory from late expansion, but it's quite a fresh sting atm. I won't fault anyone for being angry right now. If anything, I wonder why I'm not angry?

Personally, I didn't care about the new gear, even though i280 is in the game, it's not worth getting it anyways since we are now less than 4 months away from Stormblood which will invalidate the weapon.

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Originally Posted by Mature

Funny enough I got 3 Animas and I am not bothered at all. Because some of us grind to collect weps and gear. And Anima will be a bonus for SB as it will help me get the next Relic a bit easier.

Get over it.

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Collect weapons and gear? You mean there was absolutely no satisfaction in trying to obtain the ultimate weapon which is pretty much what ARR's relic was about and HW.....? You just "collect" it and don't realize the effort it takes to fully develop one? Telling people that cared for their animas to get over it is frankly stupid because they were lied to about "best weapon". Just because it doesn't bother you doesn't mean we can't voice our opinion dude. Using 3 animas as your excuse is also stupid because if you did 3 then you'd realize what SE did here is quite noticeably wrong and it insults the people and their time investment.

Wow! I just found out about this. I'm not even lv60, so obviously haven't started the Anima relic questline. So this doesn't affect me in anyway at the moment, but I sympathize with those who are upset. If I would have completed my relic 9 days ago, I would seriously be losing my shit right now.

I don't feel it invalidates the time and effort for those who put it in to obtaining their now former BiS weapon, but it does invalidate the relic itself as it officially can no longer be BiS if another exists. Gating the new weapons behind ridiculous RNG, FATEs, and shear luck doesn't excuse it. It does little to cushion the blow felt by the playerbase right now who feel like they've been shit on. And the fact that SE continues to gate acquisition of rare goods behind RNG and FATEs shows they have learned next to nothing from the constant bombardment of frustration that is left in their wake. Players lose their confidence in those driving the creative decisions of their favorite mmo. I mean, wasn't it SE themselves who released the 2D Titan EX fight showing a derpgoon getting Nightmare, and then bailing the group? Is this some kind of joke to them?

For a player like me, I feel like there is absolutely no point in doing relic questlines. I did have motivation to obtain my 3.0 relic. That's gone now. Along with any desire to do any relic content that is released with SB. I know I can't be the only pre-60 who feels this way, and they are trying to get players to run content?

Perhaps relics should be released for what they are: an Aesthetic upgrade. It's not BiS, or ever will be, but you can continue to glam it over a crappy looking weapon that is currently superior.

From what I've heard, only one person out of all of who participate in the emergency mission (Which can be as many as 72) gets a 280 weapon.

Couple this with with the number of people needed to even finish the mission, along with the low frequency it appears at (It appeared once out of the five full exploration missions I did, personally), and the weapons really aren't going to be that common at all.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

From what I've heard, only one person out of all of who participate in the emergency mission (Which can be as many as 72) gets a 280 weapon.

Couple this with with the number of people needed to even finish the mission, along with the low frequency it appears at (It appeared once out of the five full exploration missions I did, personally), and the weapons really aren't going to be that common at all.

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Have head that 2 people got them in a run now, so maybe the first reports were just bad RNG.

How this got green lit is beyond me.

At least when the Zodiac weapons got outclassed, it was when Heavensward actually launched - and even then it was only after you got to the Aery, more or less halfway through the story. Here, the Anima is outclassed within its own final patch, a mere 9 days after its last step launched - and even then it only got some shine because Diadem had to be delayed to fix a bug.

Personally, I just don't care. I saw it coming, so I didn't get my hopes up. Gotta think, they had to get people in diadem somehow. I love my 2 (almost 3) animas. Not because they were "powerful", but because they were pretty and I worked for them. I've played many MMOs, and it's been the same for a long time. Perhaps I'm just used to gear getting outdated so fast *shrug*. I'm gonna enjoy the content regardless.

If we were a month before stormblood, I'd not be surprised to have them dropping 280 gear like candy, that might be their plan anyway. This is one hell of a slap in the face for those that did months of grinding and steps on the relic, make no mistake about it. No-one expected it to last forever, but 9 days is a joke. Grinding is a lot more palatable when you get to enjoy the fruits of your labour for a time.

I don't even know how to phrase it. First everybody was screaming that SE needs to add something to the diadem (gear/weapon/token/relic upgrades etc.), a lot of us asked why do they need to put anything in it, that is gear relevant and why not create it just like potd. Minions, glamour, hairstyles, mounts would have been enough in my personal opinion. We nearly got murdered about such dumb idea and people were demanding that items need to be added to make it relevant.

Now the developers thought, eh maybe that's what we need to do, because the whole forum is demanding items, we can't just not add anything. Let's add the gear everybody wants because than diadem would be something people could enjoy and they even asked for it in first place. Now everybody is complaining again, and I am not even sure if I want to laugh or just close the browser tab that says forums on it. Make up your mind is all I can just say. You wanted gear in diadem now you have gear in diadem.

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

Now the developers thought, eh maybe that's what we need to do, because the whole forum is demanding items, we can't just not add anything. Let's add the gear everybody wants because than diadem would be something people could enjoy and they even asked for it in first place. Now everybody is complaining again, and I am not even sure if I want to laugh or just close the browser tab that says forums on it. Make up your mind is all I can just say. You wanted gear in diadem now you have gear in diadem.

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Gear doesn't mean they wanted 280 gear in Diadem.

The points of the matter is how fast SE introduced a higher ilv weapon when anima was just updated. It is unfair and frustrating, not being salty. I can understand eventually it will but come on, so soon? Even BEFORE we have the Shire weapon upgrade drop from Dun Scaith to 270? Now that is what causing people puzzled. When will we get the weapon upgrade drop from DS? It seems so unattractive now.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Except the drop rate on those weapons are so astronomically low few will bother. In fact, plenty of raiders have quit the game entirely-- be it until Stormblood or indefinitely-- due to it ruining their speed runs. You know what would make people run Diadem? More fights like the Emergency Mission. Put rewards behind speed kills, how many players died and other achievement like things. EX Primals are worthless to any raider who can clear Savage yet how many funnel in because they want the mounts? A 280 weapon isn't going to entice many people.

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Ok then, if it is that worthless, why is everyone so salty?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Ok then, if it is that worthless, why is everyone so salty?

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Because they don't want the gear that they spent dedicated amounts of time and effort getting to be worthless just so Diadem can get a few more people participating?

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Because they don't want the gear that they spent dedicated amounts of time and effort getting to be worthless just so Diadem can get a few more people participating?

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That isn't it at all. A big reason why I still did my Zodiac relic despite how outdated it is, is because I knew that it would still be one of the best weapons I can have until about halfway through HW. And because I progress so slowly, I knew I would still have a lot of time enjoying it before I would have to upgrade. Despite my late coming into the game, this alone lets me know that when 3.0 launched, those who completed the zodiac weapon quest had a BiS until what? 3.2? Several months after the expansion was released? Using it as a glamour was a very distant second.

Before this patch, I had an amicable argument with my FC leader about relics, Lucis tools, and current endgame crafting/gathering gear. Her stance was that there was no point working on the anima weapon quest or the endgame crafting/gathering gear when the next patch will just introduce something to beat it out. I - what I thought was a logical argument at the time - told her that there is NO way that anything will be introduced into the game that beats these out until a couple patches into stormblood. I felt this was a calculated and smart argument to make based off the HW expansion. Let me tell ya, I logged in tonight saying, "Don't tell me, 'Told ya so'" before anyone could say anything. To add insult to inury, the FC leader has never even played XI, or any other FF title before or after it. This game was her first FF anything.

Imagine how this makes me feel as a FF loyalist? I was proven wrong by one who is more familiar with the current meta of MMO gaming than I am with the FF franchise. Proven wrong, because I placed faith in my familiarity with this franchise. Perhaps this is where all of those who are upset went wrong. Today was a very sad day for many players. Two from my FC members unsubbed. I'm praying that it was just an emotional reflex, and they'll be back after they calmed down.

The community has been sculpted and conditioned into having an expectation of how content is going to be released and handled. The fact that the i280 even EXISTS, is driving people crazy because it's not the usual way people are used to. (Edit: In reference to the timing.)

This shouldn't work you up though and feel betrayed by the developers; this should open up conversation about the 4.0 battle system changes though. People need to realize it's not as simple as poor timing for a patch; but why is it that higher damage on a weapon alone can make all other weapons not as good?

Doesn't that bother you that there's nothing unique about your hard earned relic or raid weapon?

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Originally Posted by A_Hortensia

The community has been sculpted and conditioned into having an expectation of how content is going to be released and handled. The fact that the i280 even EXISTS, is driving people crazy because it's not the usual way people are used to. (Edit: In reference to the timing.)

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This is true. In the 4 year history of the game, there has NEVER been a weapon that is better than a raid weapon. Hell, in the first patch cycle people complained because the relic could be gotten easily and was i90, and so was the raid weapon (which they then changed to i95). The fact that they wanted to distinguish the raid weapon as the best weapon says a lot about what the content is supposed to represent.

Later relic was expanded upon and became an equivilent to the raid weapon after a long process of various steps, and thus we had two endgame models, both of which are equally time consuming, and this design works.

Diadem weapons are an anomaly, a reckless, head scratching, cancer of an anomaly. First off, they introduce a brand new kind of endgame (which relates to your discussion about 4.0 changes), that being RNG (previously put under the umbrella of the relic process). The idea now being that you can get a BiS ilvl weapon through skill, grind, or RNG. This is a huge thing, but SE took it a step further and made the weapon i280. What this does is it breaks down the entire meaning of endgame BiS, as there are no longer 3 equally balanced pillars, but rather one pillar with two supports underneith it. Had the weapon been i275 it would have been seen as fine no matter what the stats were, because the community perception is that it would be equivilent, whereas making it i280 effectively makes it the only endgame, with relic and savage being a stepping stone towards it, much like tomestone weapons are.

Why so salty? 4.0 drops in just a few months... ALL 3.xx gear will be glamour by the time we reach level 63 to 65 so who cares. Just enjoy the new content and be happy that you can farm interesting gear and weapons before 4.0 drops.... at least we have way more content to run compared to 2.50 to 2.55. The only thing i had to do was pony farm. Now i have PoTD, Diadem, leveling up the rest of my crafts, maybe finish a 3.x relic... so yea be happy that we have a lot more to do till 4.0 drops... just saying it could be 2.55 all over again with nothing to do but pony farm.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

at least we have way more content to run compared to 2.50 to 2.55. The only thing i had to do was pony farm. Now i have PoTD, Diadem, leveling up the rest of my crafts, maybe finish a 3.x relic... so yea be happy that we have a lot more to do till 4.0 drops... just saying it could be 2.55 all over again with nothing to do but pony farm.

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You had relic in 2.xx too. The difference is instead of getting an inferior trinket, you ended up with a BiS item. Crafting also existed in 2.xx, with a level up incentive similar to the current stuff in the form of Ixal beast tribe quests. Coil was opened up for the last part of ARR & in general was more accessible than the HW Savage modes. (You don't see many people running Gordias or Midas, for instance, but back in the day T2, T4, T5, T9, T13 were common)

Instead of the i280 weapon the rare drop should have been /playdead emote

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Because they don't want the gear that they spent dedicated amounts of time and effort getting to be worthless just so Diadem can get a few more people participating?

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Given the drop rate, how is i270 gear worthless? Given RNG stat values, how is i270 gear worthless? I just don't see how a rare drop with uncertain stats stacks against current BiS. When Diadem first launched this same situation occurred, but the Frankenstein-weapons that some got were clearly inferior to current BiS at the time.

Honestly, this kind of over sensitive, instant panic makes end gamers and raiders look extremely insecure.

Miste pointed out that my original sentence I was both over generalizing and appeared to be insulting, and I apologize. It was a little barbed I will admit, and thta totally obscured the point I was trying to make. Here is a far better worded and clearer version of what I was trying to say.

Those complaining broadly speaking appear to be those who already have end game/raiding weapons and gear. By and large, that group does not include very many casual players - almost by definition. Logically the majority of the complaints about the i280 weapon are coming from end game players and raiders. Given the precarious nature of the i280 weapon and it's stats - due to RNG as well as the relatively low drop rate and conditions, I honestly can't see how anyone already possessing one or more i270 weapons has any significant reason to complain about it.

Which brings me back to the point I was making, and apparently botched. I don't think that those players should feel so insecure about their well earned gear even in the face of this thing in Diadem 2. Quite apart from anything else, those best placed to acquire that weapon are those very same players. I call it insecurity because the nature of the reaction and it's strength suggests that players complaining are not very secure or happy in their gear because they perceive this i280 as invalidating their prior efforts. I don't think anyone should feel that way, and in fact I'd suggest that the things earned before put you in a great position to obtain the i280 which I (for example) and many other more casual players will almost certainly never acquire. So, shy feel so insecure about your gear in relation to the i280 weapon in Diadem?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Honestly, this kind of over sensitive, instant panic makes end gamers and raiders look extremely insecure.

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Don't generalize. I'm sure you are better than that :/

I could flip this sentence that you just wrote to the other side... to a generalization about "casuals", but that wouldn't be very nice right?

If people are unhappy with something they share feedback. What type of player they are is irrelevant.

I know things eventually all get invalidated, but like I said before 9 days after is way too soon to bring out something better. End of March? Sure. 9 days? Je ne comprends pas.

Considering the relic took awhile to make and each player put quite a bit of time into it...give the players time to enjoy their accomplishment before adding something better that you have to farm.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Im rich. All my in game stocks were in salt waiting for this patch to drop.

I honestly dont give a damn about the weapons. wont grind for one, already have 2 completed relics and 3 more almost done. Tbh, WHO CARES IF THEY ADDED A HIGHER ILVL weapon?!

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This.

Never bothered with relic weapons, never will. Give it a few weeks/months and all those precious relic weapons will be nothing but glamour, cause we get a whole bunch of new weapons with higher ilvl. It's a waste of time...

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Originally Posted by Lunafreya

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6dRsCeVUAAq252.jpg

SE can we get a comment on this please? Please give us an i280 step for relic since you broke the game without intending it.

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Yes pls give us a ilv 280 or 285 relic weapon for 3.56

Imagine if they decided to add an A13S with no prior warning, just as your group is starting to get A12S down to 5% or less.
Imagine if it were new crafting/gathering gear that is the new best in slot, just as you'd completed your melds.
Imagine the prices of the "luxury" mounts in the Gold Saucer were suddenly increased just as you got enough MGP.

Imagine if an easier-yet-inconsistent method of obtaining a goal or high reward of your choosing was suddenly added to the game, just as you were nearing that goal/reward. . . If any of that is in any way groan-inducing to you, THAT is why people are salty. To keep the wheel turning, and almost purely to attract people to content that was flawed and unpopular to begin with, SE simply mashed several questionably liked game aspects together, then put a HUGE reward on it, behind walls of RNG. Desperate to make it a success, they went to the extreme of breaking their own pattern and formula, and have essentially released a raid-level weapon in sub-raid content, that does not require the time or effort a relic, tome, or primal weapon would. I've made my points about proportional rewards for the time/effort/skill players put into given content several times already. Consider this a negative, "What if" scenario made real.

Maybe it doesn't matter to you, and yes, when Stormblood arrives it won't be a big deal at all. But it hasn't yet. Here and now, they've broken the formula, and only to sell people on content that couldn't stand on its own. To be blunt, it's quite a pathetic move. You don't have to like it, you don't have to hate it, and you don't even NEED it, but the bigger concern is whether or not this will become a precedent down the road.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

and only to sell people on content that couldn't stand on its own.

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Just like Savage raiding, as 2.3 proved :^)

Not quite. Nice try.

"Savage" raids - at least what is referred to as such now - were the standard. Normal raids were added for the people who wanted to experience the story, but did not necessarily want the challenge. Savage Second Coil was an added challenge without added reward. They didn't sell anyone on it. They literally said "Here, if you want a challenge, here's a challenge."

Diadem however is "Here, we 'fixed' it! Please try it out; there's a chance to get something better than anything else the game has to offer currently!"

Carrot and stick. Except the carrot's really not looking all that juicy if you look carefully beyond it to where you're being led.

time to post some salty gifs

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Originally Posted by Mirch

time to post some salty gifs

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reddit has you covered...

http://i.imgur.com/eofHz2n.jpg

Oh this again. . .

Well, topic over, I guess. The overused memes are here.

People that have already gotten the 270/275 Anima can get the 280 weapon and glam it to look like the anima they worked so hard to get. Plus they probably get to skip a step in Stormblood's relic questline.

People that didn't get their Anima weapon dont get the cool glam and have to do an extra stage in SB.

Plus the weapon is rare. The boss has to spawn, then a weapon usable by a job you play has to drop, that weapon preferably needs good secondaries, and then you have to win the roll for it against 23 other people.

For people that have the Anima, getting a 280 weapon is a win-win situation for them. For people without the Anima, hey they get to upgrade whatever crappy 200-230 weapon they were using yay!

Plus, a bad player with a 280 won't suddenly start pumping out more damage/healing/emnity than a good player of the same class with a 270/275 relic weapon. They'll still be bad and you can still lord your awesomeness over the casual plebs that are groveling beneath you.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

That isn't it at all. A big reason why I still did my Zodiac relic despite how outdated it is, is because I knew that it would still be one of the best weapons I can have until about halfway through HW. And because I progress so slowly, I knew I would still have a lot of time enjoying it before I would have to upgrade. Despite my late coming into the game, this alone lets me know that when 3.0 launched, those who completed the zodiac weapon quest had a BiS until what? 3.2? Several months after the expansion was released? Using it as a glamour was a very distant second.

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If this is your thinking and plan for your anima, I feel it's probably best to tell you that the Zodiac was a relevant weapon for a week or two at best for most people in Heavensward. It was outclassed by dungeon drops and white gear starting around level 55. It was usable beyond 57 but was no where near as good as dungeon weapons and HQ crafted weapons. By level 60 it was already completely worthless beyond glamour and using it to get past the crystal farming phase of anima. Just so that you're not shocked in SB when it's the same scenario.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Don't generalize. I'm sure you are better than that :/

I could flip this sentence that you just wrote to the other side... to a generalization about "casuals", but that wouldn't be very nice right?

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Yes, you're correct I did over generalize and I will go back and edit the original post.

However, if you remember the reaction to the original Diadem gear, and look at the ridiculous number of topics on the General Discussion forum about i280 weapons in Diadem 2 you have to concede that there is an extreme reaction and it's not a small number of people reacting. Additionally, those complaining are those who already have end game/raiding weapons and gear. By and large, that group does not include very many casual players - almost by definition. Logically the majority of the complaints about the i280 weapon are coming from end game players and raiders. Given the precarious nature of the i280 weapon and it's stats - due to RNG as well as the relatively low drop rate and conditions, I honestly can't see how anyone already possessing one or more i270 weapons has any significant reason to complain about it.

Which brings me back to the point I was making an apparently botched. I don't think that those players should feel so insecure about their well earned gear even in the face of this thing in Diadem 2. Quite apart from anything else, those best placed to acquire that weapon are those very same players. I call it insecurity because the nature of the reaction and it's strength suggests that players complaining are not very secure or happy in their gear because they perceive this i280 as invalidating their prior efforts. I don't think anyone should feel that way, and in fact I'd suggest that the things earned before put you in a great position to obtain the i280 which I (for example) and many other more casual players will almost certainly never acquire.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Yes, you're correct I did over generalize and I will go back and edit the original post.

However, if you remember the reaction to the original Diadem gear, and look at the ridiculous number of topics on the General Discussion forum about i280 weapons in Diadem 2 you have to concede that there is an

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But I keep seeing these post pop up and Im still wondering who does this benefit at all, and to me its basically nobody. It doesn't benefit raiders, doesn't benefit midcore players like myself , and it certainly doesn't benefit casual players who dont even need a 280 weapon.

This was just a stupid Idea period, its hot now because its new but once people see how much time is wasted looking for the impossible it would die down Im pretty sure. The thing is you say that it wouldn't help but I certainly do think it would of helped mid core players that didnt wana grind , shire, or anima (me personally it was because of fates), if they would of put in a level 265, or level 270 weapon with a much higher drop rate in there instead there would be no backlash.

Whats the point in putting a non obtainable weapon in there its complete bs , and leaves midcore players that are still finishing up their trails and tryin to raid with nothing just like they had before diadum. This is one of the dumbest things to happen sense I started playing the game , putting this item in helps no one other than taking them away from content that you would actually need a high level weapon for with hopes of a pipe dream drop. When they could of put 265 or 270 weapons in as well instead of a garbage .01 percent chance of getting a 280 weapon

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

But I keep seeing these post pop up and Im still wondering who does this benefit at all, and to me its basically nobody. It doesn't benefit raiders, doesn't benefit midcore players like myself , and it certainly doesn't benefit casual players who dont even need a 280 weapon.

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It benefits SE's bottom line. Keeps players subbed during the pre-expac lull with the chance of a nice carrot at the end of the stick.

It benefits me, personally as a FC leader, to keep my members engaged and allowing us one more thing to do as a group.

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Originally Posted by Zigabar

It benefits SE's bottom line. Keeps players subbed during the pre-expac lull with the chance of a nice carrot at the end of the stick.

It benefits me, personally as a FC leader, to keep my members engaged and allowing us one more thing to do as a group.

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So your saying people wouldnt farm it for 270 weapons , when people run void ark still every week so they can keep upgrading gear when its the first 24 man. I just find it hard to believe that everyone has all of there jobs anything above 255 kinna weapon or even a lower level weapon. They may have a main a 275, or 270 but I doubt all of the ones they play, this content would of been fine with 265 weapon or 270 weapon.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

So your saying people wouldnt farm it for 270 weapons , when people run void ark still every week so they can keep upgrading gear when its the first 24 man. I just find it hard to believe that everyone has all of there jobs anything above 255 kinna weapon or even a lower level weapon. They may have a main a 275, or 270 but I doubt all of the ones they play, this content would of been fine with 265 weapon or 270 weapon.

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Did I say that?

So let me see if I understand this.

There's a 280 weapon that can drop, but the odds of you actually getting the weapon are ridiculously small. And on top of that, the odds of you getting the weapon for the class you actually play is even smaller. And on top of that, the stats are random so even if you do get one the odds of getting one with the stats you need are even smaller. And on top of that the odds of you getting a drop for the class you play, with the stats you want before Stormblood hits and none of this matters anyway are even smaller.

Is that all of it?

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Originally Posted by Zigabar

Did I say that?

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It was just a bad idea and really doesn't seem to help anyone but, those whom believe they can defy math and percentages. Ha I hate math and in the end this doesn't really seem to be makin very many people happy at all because it just does nothing for anyone at the end of the day. Hec Id rather them have just the 265 gear and thats all than creating an illusion of a dream that you actually have a shot at beating out 71 other people.