SE to churn out a FF title/year?!

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

If you take spin-offs into account not mentioning Dissidia would be blasphemy. They really need to take that serie from the handhelds and use the gameplay in the mainline entries. It is so close to having very very good gameplay almost on the level of fighting games/DMC that it makes me drool for more (you can actually treat it as a legitimate fighting game with tiers and advanced tactics. Too bad it has no online). Kingdom Hearts could also learn something from it.

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I disagree. Final Fantasy is meant to be a turn-based series going back to it's origins. Turning it into an action game ruins the franchise for what it's famous for (Interesting story, character depth and battle system). Yes the previous games have character depth to claim they do not have character depth compared to XIII you're being an oblivious fanboy/girl.

As one stated before Nomura put a lot of customization or so into character design? Yet many of the characters are a rip off of characters from games before it or from different titles.

Back to my point, adding in a battle system such as Dissidia's many people would probably agree with mainly because of KH syndrome. But if you follow the trend of failure from the past few FF games and why the public doesn't label them as good as it's predecessors, the answer is obvious.

It's moving far away from what they enjoyed in the past games and the battle system is one of them. XIII uses ATB like some of the previous games but it was more action oriented than strategic. Not to mention controlling one character at a time? That's removing depth from the game that made it more enjoyable.


P.S. Those who say "more sequels to the series and spin-offs" just no. Final Fantasy is not meant to have spin-offs/sequels they're stand alone games. Sequels and spin-offs just milk the game they're based on and/or not needed. XIII is an exception since development stopped when it was ported.

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I disagree. Final Fantasy is meant to be a turn-based series going back to it's origins.

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It is either strategic or action-oriented. Old Final Fantasies suck at both.

There is no magical "third option". Those are the two choices and the turn-based system did not excel in neither.

I'm sorry to tell you that the franchise you love sucks at being a video game. But just like in your post I am responding to, you will keep refusing to acknowledge this in your attempt to justify your fondness to the franchise by writing a lot of words and stating very little. Which is why it is useless to bother going further than this.

I hate FFXIII

Battle system- AI was STUPID, example Enemy is susceptible to Deprotect and Deshell. Vanille cast fog over and over and over... Party leader dies game over, why can't a team mate be smart enough to use a pheonix down without my orders? Didn't know I was playing persona now.

Characters- Sahz, Snow, and Lightning were the only cool party members.

Hope (I wanted dead, is a wimp, makes awkward situations like what he said after getting back to cacoon, and meeting up with Snow's old gang).
Vanille's constant, annyoing, one track monologue pissed me off. "Oh we didn't know if we were going to make it but we had no choice but to move foward." YEAH I got that during the first 5 minutes into the game you dumb *beep* SHUT UP!
Fang is just a character to look at.

Story- They gave Alexander to Hope, are you kidding me... Vanille's monologue...
Everyone>> Oh don't worry chapter 12 is when the game gets good.
Me>> Isn't that the end of the game?
Everyone>> Yes.
Me>> Why should I have to wait till the end of the game for it to be good. FFT FFVII FFVIII FFIX FFX FFXI and Pac-man was awesome from start to finish.

I got to the end of 13 where you have to put the bridge together to get to the final boss... I can't even finish it. I litterally can't turn on my ps3 knowing I am going to play such a shitty game.

I feel more productive playing FFXIV sitting there for 4 hours doing absolutely nothing, than playing XIII. Atleast I gave the game a chance till chapter 12 to redeem itself, but it failed to get my attention.

Sorry had to rant when I see XIII talk. Of course the following rant is my own opinion.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

It is either strategic or action-oriented. Old Final Fantasies suck at both.

There is no magical "third option". Those are the two choices and the turn-based system did not excel in neither.

I'm sorry to tell you that the franchise you love sucks at being a video game. But just like in your post I am responding to, you will keep refusing to acknowledge this in your attempt to justify your fondness to the franchise by writing a lot of words and stating very little. Which is why it is useless to bother going further than this.

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Doesn't have to excel as long as you enjoy it and if you hate Final Fantasy so much why do you post on a Final Fantasy forum and why did you purchase the game? Also you cannot just toss out random statements you need "words' to express and describe the statement or it's all hot air; sad to say but your opinion is invalid. If it sucked as a franchise then it wouldn't have done so well up to current gen games.

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Originally Posted by Caselia

If it sucked as a franchise then it wouldn't have done so well up to current gen games.

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"Franchise sucks as a video game" =! "franchise sucks".

I don't hate Final Fantasy. I state things how they are, not how I want them to be. People can find playing bad games entertaining. That's not wrong at all.

Your last misconception is that there is an opinion anywhere in my statements. It's the last line of defense for any FF fan. "It's just your opinion". But sorry, that it is not. Objective truth is out there and that truth is that this franchise sucks as a video game, and as a story in anything but video game standards.

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Originally Posted by northernsky

Fair enough.
That said, I played my first FFs as a teen, and still enjoy those ones the most. There was that "little something" (best word that comes to mind is '"atmosphere") that could not be achieved with just gameplay or graphics.

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That's called nostalgia

i like that they will push out more of these, i always thought they came out way to slow. only on 14 after all this time, i'd say lets pump it up to triple that at least, i'd happily buy each one if they keep being great. now if they start turning into really bad games then ...cya laters. but using the same graphics or engine or whatever it is they do sounds cool if it means a few spinoffs and more stories and contents.

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Originally Posted by Caselia

I disagree. Final Fantasy is meant to be a turn-based series going back to it's origins. Turning it into an action game ruins the franchise for what it's famous for (Interesting story, character depth and battle system). Yes the previous games have character depth to claim they do not have character depth compared to XIII you're being an oblivious fanboy/girl.

As one stated before Nomura put a lot of customization or so into character design? Yet many of the characters are a rip off of characters from games before it or from different titles.

Back to my point, adding in a battle system such as Dissidia's many people would probably agree with mainly because of KH syndrome. But if you follow the trend of failure from the past few FF games and why the public doesn't label them as good as it's predecessors, the answer is obvious.

It's moving far away from what they enjoyed in the past games and the battle system is one of them. XIII uses ATB like some of the previous games but it was more action oriented than strategic. Not to mention controlling one character at a time? That's removing depth from the game that made it more enjoyable.


P.S. Those who say "more sequels to the series and spin-offs" just no. Final Fantasy is not meant to have spin-offs/sequels they're stand alone games. Sequels and spin-offs just milk the game they're based on and/or not needed. XIII is an exception since development stopped when it was ported.

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Some of their games deserve a sequel/prequel, or just a follow up, but SE always ALWAYS!! Does it for the ones that just suck(And the sequel sucks too <.<) look at FFX-2 horrible game :/ Vagrant story never got a sequel, even the masterpiece that is FFT never actually got a sequel, just some kiddie watered version, nor did xenogears another masterpiece from square, or chrono trigger/cross, neither did seikendetsu, hell even FFXII( In my opinion one of the better FF tittles of the last decade if not the best since VI) never got a sequel and we never even fought the alquoria in the main game :(

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Originally Posted by Scherwiz

You bought something possibly worse than a fart in a bottle, atleast then, and ... I bought... 2 CE... shit.

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"Sigh" I didn't even get my certificate.

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Originally Posted by XxOstiaxX

FFVI>FFT>>> All FF

Please do not mention FFXIII in the same line as FFVI it is blasphemy.

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My Opinion > your opinion

Also FFXIII is pretty damn similar to FFVI in the sense that you don't have as much control over your party compared to, say, FFX. FFVI fanboys are by far the most delusional in the franchise. I thought FFXIII and FFVI were both equally fun. Deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

My Opinion > your opinion

Also FFXIII is pretty damn similar to FFVI in the sense that you don't have as much control over your party compared to, say, FFX. FFVI fanboys are by far the most delusional in the franchise. I thought FFXIII and FFVI were both equally fun. Deal with it.

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Fun in a video game meant for entertainment? Stop the horse shit already.

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

My Opinion > your opinion

Also FFXIII is pretty damn similar to FFVI in the sense that you don't have as much control over your party compared to, say, FFX. FFVI fanboys are by far the most delusional in the franchise. I thought FFXIII and FFVI were both equally fun. Deal with it.

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I'm confused, FFVI with Terra, Sabin, Locke, and Edgar? Or FFVII with Cloud and Sephiroth *the orchestra starts playing One-Winged Angel* "Stop it!!!" *orchestra stops*

@Omega_Hack: You're right about the character growth aspects. FF6 had some character growth, but I recall moreso discovering more about a character. FF7, I can only recall Cloud growing near the end of disc 2. FF10 and FF13 do have character growth, which I think is something I overlook in older games due to nostalgia.

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Originally Posted by Seif

http://www.gamesthirst.com/2011/11/2...t-square-enix/

I don't know even where to begin to understand this logic.

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Originally Posted by Seif

Past 2 FF titles have damaged the brand equity and to make more money let's make more FF games at a faster rate!!!

Yes because we all know XIII and XIV would be much greater games with even less content.

I wonder what this means to the resources available for XIV's development?

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tldr: Open-ended RPGs like Elder Scrolls and BioWare have influenced our tastes, making linear games harder to succeed. Nostalgia affects our judgment of the past. I liked FF13's battle mechanics. Customized tools, plug-ins, or modifications will take longer than taking advantage of an existing engine and tools. Good chunk of Assassin's Creed groundwork setup during revival of Prince of Persia games.

Extended: Looking at the article, I'm thinking that whenever someone is making a host of their own tools and/or heavily tweaking an existing engine, it's going to add a good chunk of time to the development cycle. I think some of this ties into where the Unreal engine is seen as a Western market engine, designed for Western games. But I'm on the fence about this and I think I see why SE did what they did.

The Gap
The gap between the FF games was about the same gap as usual when releasing for the next gen console (i.e. FF7, FF10, FF13). Games like Morrowind and Star Wars:KoTOR return at breaking the walls of PC RPGs on a console, then Oblivion, Mass Effect, Fallout 3, and Dragon Age come out solidifying the impact of player choice on the story and the world. So this time, the gap came at a bad time for JRPGs.

Familiar is better
On the Japanese consumer side of the equation, my observation has been "familiar is better". Even Western consumers may have developed the nostalgia preference over time if they were used to Japanese consoles and games. Games like Wizardry/Xth Generation/Etrian Odyssey kick out develop-worthy sales in Japan, but in a Western market, they don't sell well enough to keep localization up. *kisses Dark Spire and the recent Wizardry PSN release*

Enjoyed Final Fantasy 13 Re: FF13, one of the first things I did was take off auto-battle. In a game where two of your party members are A.I. controlled and intended to be linear for a long time, I don't want the computer playing the only character I do have control of. I imagine for those that did not like the game, auto-battle may have played a subconscious factor in it. At least in FF12 gambit system, you had to customize the gambits akin to Dragon Age's tactic slots. The three things I didn't like about FF13 were the motion capture being too similar to all other Japanese motion capture, Hope's angst, and never feeling safe (town hub) ~ albeit that's good for the theme.

Franchise Churning Out Games
On the Assassin's Creed side, I do recall a new Assassin's game every year with distance between Assassin's Creed 1 and 2 as I've received an Assassin's Creed as a birthday gift except for 2008 (I think I got a box of Frosted Mini Wheats instead). The company was planning a one-shot, they didn't anticipate they would have to make a sequel. The animations and maneuvering mechanics started years ago with the Prince of Persia games and adapting those to a new environment. They have a concept of stealth by blending and set off to Assassin's Creed. Plus, PoP loyalists seem to have disliked the last two Prince of Persia games (came after the fact), a new presentation has shown more fruitful results thusfar.

The graphics were adjusted between 1 and 2, models adjusted between 2 and Brotherhood, and again between Brotherhood and Revelations (Desmond is hot again). UbiSoft allocating their offices across the globe to create assets for the game and do the international release bid. There's a large chunk of text to localize for these as well, the script, optional script, and database. A new city (or cities) are created with a variety of dungeons and settings on top of that. The two main differences I see are 1) no comparable gameplay of products out there, so they don't have to compare and compete in the same genre (where people will compare MMORPGs to each other quite easily, so you don't want to be behind feature-wise) and 2) releasing content on an annual basis, rather than an expected release on a monthly basis.

I apologize for the incoherence, this was not typed in one sitting or even consecutively.

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

@Omega_Hack: You're right about the character growth aspects. FF6 had some character growth, but I recall moreso discovering more about a character. FF7, I can only recall Cloud growing near the end of disc 2. FF10 and FF13 do have character growth, which I think is something I overlook in older games due to nostalgia.

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have to disagree FF7 character growth

barret - eco warrior, with a little girl that is clearly not his, you find out a whole town hates him, you find out how he got his gun arm and became the dad to his best friends little girl, he best friend he has to duel and kill half way through the game, and you find out why he blames shinra for the whole thing

tifa - you find tifa in the slums of midgar, you find out how she was clouds childhood friend (complicated story with the whole cloud/zak mako memory thing but i'll not get into that) you find out how a popular village girl watches her village burn, and follows sephiroth to what seems her bloody end, only to be saved by a monk, so her growth is how she ended up being driven by her hate for sephiroth and became quite possibly the hardest lady in the world, and i never even touched the tifa - cloud -aerith love triangle

red xiii - you find this lovable dog/wolf sort of thing in a research lab, you find he can talk which is a shock, at first he seems like a very old very wise sage like charater, he seems to know the world is in pain, you go to his village, you find out he hates is father a cowardly traitor, and loves his mother, a brave guardian that gave he life for her village, at this point we realise Red is nothing more than a scared little boy that was lost and wanted to go home, and only by finding out the truth of his fathers heroism does he find the strength help you save the world

i really could go on about cid being screwed out of flying and hating shinra, vincent having a score to settle with sephiroth etc but thats it for now lol, in my opinion all characters had depth, growth, a sense that they had feelings which and experiences that made them the ppl they were. thats not me saying FF6 never i loved the characters in that game justas much

but i do have one last point. is it just coincidence that FF seems to lost some of its shine at the same time that Hironobu Sakaguchi left (i'm being diplomatic there lol)

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Originally Posted by grandm

have to disagree FF7 character growth

barret - eco warrior, with a little girl that is clearly not his, you find out a whole town hates him, you find out how he got his gun arm and became the dad to his best friends little girl, he best friend he has to duel and kill half way through the game, and you find out why he blames shinra for the whole thing

tifa - you find tifa in the slums of midgar, you find out how she was clouds childhood friend (complicated story with the whole cloud/zak mako memory thing but i'll not get into that) you find out how a popular village girl watches her village burn, and follows sephiroth to what seems her bloody end, only to be saved by a monk, so her growth is how she ended up being driven by her hate for sephiroth and became quite possibly the hardest lady in the world, and i never even touched the tifa - cloud -aerith love triangle

red xiii - you find this lovable dog/wolf sort of thing in a research lab, you find he can talk which is a shock, at first he seems like a very old very wise sage like charater, he seems to know the world is in pain, you go to his village, you find out he hates is father a cowardly traitor, and loves his mother, a brave guardian that gave he life for her village, at this point we realise Red is nothing more than a scared little boy that was lost and wanted to go home, and only by finding out the truth of his fathers heroism does he find the strength help you save the world

i really could go on about cid being screwed out of flying and hating shinra, vincent having a score to settle with sephiroth etc but thats it for now lol, in my opinion all characters had depth, growth, a sense that they had feelings which and experiences that made them the ppl they were. thats not me saying FF6 never i loved the characters in that game justas much

but i do have one last point. is it just coincidence that FF seems to lost some of its shine at the same time that Hironobu Sakaguchi left (i'm being diplomatic there lol)

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For FF7, I viewed it as we're discovering more about the character's pasts and motives. But their beliefs are pretty much the same throughout the main storyline. Versus the characters are changing their perceptions of the world or their beliefs.

It's a mix of things really.

People have "grown out" of actual RPGs and want everything fast paced action games which is why RPGs as of late really lost their charm, you could say Square lost some good talent, but they still pushed out good games. FF itself is a victim of mainstream gaming, not so much who left, because for the most part everyone who made FF what it is, from Art to programming is essentially still a part of the team or still willingly works with Square for some projects (i.e Nobuo.)

Also while VII had character growth, XIII's characters were a bit more human compared to the usual protagonists of the series.

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

For FF7, I viewed it as we're discovering more about the character's pasts and motives. But their beliefs are pretty much the same throughout the main storyline. Versus the characters are changing their perceptions of the world or their beliefs.

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there was a bit of that as i say Red xiii, had a life changer where his whole views changed, yuffie had the point where she found out her dad was not a weak holiday home owner, and aerith journey of discovery was second to none with te way her story ended, but in that game every character was different had different reason for fighting and we found out about these ppl in different ways, the story as a whole was a masterpiece (if not very hard to keep track of in places)

my opinion FF4 FF6 and FF7 and possibly FF 5 had the greatest story's, not not to say i didnt like all the others, just as far as story goes they were great (the thing with opinions is every1 is allowed one. just remember only mine is correct lol)

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Faster does not necessarily means worse.:rolleyes:
Assassin's Creed was always interesting in my opinion and certainly had no "lack of content"

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I assume you're talking of each game individuall, as all together they're all the exact same thing done over and over and over and over and over again and than nothing is answered in the end.

In b4 Call of Final Duty Fantasy 4.0 Mobile Summoning, THe game will be endless ducking in linear levels and quick-time ev... oh wait, XIII is already all of that.

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

tldr: [FONT=Verdana] Open-ended RPGs like Elder Scrolls and BioWare have influenced our tastes, making linear games harder to succeed. Nostalgia affects our judgment of the past. I liked FF13's battle mechanics.

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I like how nowadays people seem to frown at anything that isn't a pseudo-sandbox with dem "choices".

FFXIII is as linear as pretty much every other FF game, or almost every JRPG for that matter, it just didn't bother hiding it that much. Heck, FFX is regarded as one of the best in the series by some people (not me, mind you) and doesn't even has a Gran Pulseish area to break up the corridors that make up the rest of the game and not many seem to complain about that.

But nowadays any game that doesn't have six different endings and choices everywhere has a "simplistic, linear plot" and is instantly bashed.

Linearity doesn't equals bad same way as freedom also isn't inherently good. I sure as hell get bored with most sandbox WRPGs.

Everything I said also applies to classic, Turn Based battles, and as much as I also like more action based combat, I hope developers don't abandon that style as well. Sadly, SE seems to be going away from that.




And yes, ths rant is a bit offtopicish, but then again this entire thread is offtopic, so whatever.

this thread had a topic? who knew!

FF 4 is my favorite i always felt that chars in that game felt human, loved FF 13 too. This is the part where people hate me WRPG's are nice that they are big and have lots to do and is open world it just feels like GTA to me, an OK story with multiple outcomes, and lots of side quest.

An rpg done right for me was Xenoblade this gen Good story 50+ hrs over 200 hrs of side quest and over 200 + named monster's to fight thru out the game, an materia like system, and the world was pretty much open for you to travel as much as you want.

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

I'm confused, FFVI with Terra, Sabin, Locke, and Edgar? Or FFVII with Cloud and Sephiroth *the orchestra starts playing One-Winged Angel* "Stop it!!!" *orchestra stops*

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Final Fantasy 6. Not 7. FFVII has a pretty terribad fanbase when it comes to Advent Children and all of the other spinoffs, but the main game has an...okay fanbase.

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

Final Fantasy 6. Not 7. FFVII has a pretty terribad fanbase when it comes to Advent Children and all of the other spinoffs, but the main game has an...okay fanbase.

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I agree i did not fawn over FF 7 and 6 like everyone else did cause my first FF i beat when i was 5 which was FF1 for NES, and FF 4 is still my all time favorite. Cecil X Rosa FTW

This means the long awaited Final Fantasy XXX is well on its way! :D

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Originally Posted by Nuru

This means the long awaited Final Fantasy XXX is well on its way! :D

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This sounds like a game that involves demonic molbols and lots of costume changing.

I can't imagine they would stick with the FF name that long without trying a renumber/rebranding.

I think what would sooner happen is a massive merge that will make the game companies sound like law firms: Squenix-Tecmoei-Capkonamco-Bandai-and Co.

With release titles such as: FFXXIV-X2-Triamere Decatetrahedron Master
consumer: Can I abbreviate that?
future: That is the abbreviation.
future: and you now have to solve for X to pronounce this title and those are minus signs

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

My Opinion > your opinion

Also FFXIII is pretty damn similar to FFVI in the sense that you don't have as much control over your party compared to, say, FFX. FFVI fanboys are by far the most delusional in the franchise. I thought FFXIII and FFVI were both equally fun. Deal with it.

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You did not play FFVI, because that statement is the stupidest thing i have read on this forums(And there is plenty of those around.) How in gods name, do you not have "Much" control over your party ? when even before the first part of the game, you can switch your team around, and the game has the largest cast of characters out of any FF ?

Please do tell how they are similar in that regards, when one game has your team set in stone for the 60% of the game, while the other does not for the 80% of the game :/

I think this sums up my fave:

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

FFXIII is as linear as pretty much every other FF game, or almost every JRPG for that matter, it just didn't bother hiding it that much. Heck, FFX is regarded as one of the best in the series by some people (not me, mind you) and doesn't even has a Gran Pulseish area to break up the corridors that make up the rest of the game and not many seem to complain about that

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Correction, There is a difference between linear story and linear gameplay, FF1-FF12 (excluding x and x-2) did have a linear story, but they were non-linear because you could travel around the world, discover random things, get sidetracked, enjoy sub-story arcs, mini-games and side-quests, FFXIII is literally just walking straight, even x and x2 had more exploration, as for X being regarded as the best, I don't know where you picked that up, but 7/8/9 were regarded as the best, 10 was generally regarded as a flop by the majority of FF community for linear levels, lack of content and an obnoxious whiny emo brat MC.

There is nothing wrong with a linear story, every story should have a beginning, middle, and an end, if they don't branch out its perfectly fine if the world seems somewhat real, on the other hand a linear game is one that does not allow you any (or barely any) degree of exploration and simply forces and channels you from point A to point B simple as a mean of traveling cutscene to cutscene.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

That's because you play the "Back in My Day VII".

In my language there is a different word for experience and experience. It is, ironically, much like of a drug in that you can make it occur once but you can't simply reproduce it by experiencing the same thing again and again.

SE's games are much like it, in that they give you an experience and anything after that will not be the same. As far as being games, they don't do that well, but you are mistaken if you think that I don't keep the experience in a higher regard. However, unlike some of you I understand that it is not so simple as to play a similar game to get back the feeling (or as you would say, atmosphere) to return. Right now what makes me play their newer games is only the fact that I think they are more entertaining as games as they were before. When previously you would have been hard-pressed to play an FF title if the story, music or characters were not compelling to you, today it is possible to like the entries for being games alone. I don't have to like the story or characters for it to be entertaining.

I had my experience back then with FFX and to some degree FFXI. I still think that playing those games were the best entertainment I've had in my short life, but that shouldn't stop me from looking at them objectively and with the eyes of now 21-year-old me. When somebody criticizes FFX, I think the complaints are legit. That still doesn't take away what I got out of said game long time ago.

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I was not referring to VII (more like VI, IV, or chrono trigger, which is about the order I played them, I may be a old older than you put me on), but I get your point.

But now that you mention it, I played VII a lot later and found the same addicting FF atmosphere. I played FFXII maybe 5 years ago, found it bland and boring, then actually played X after, and found it addicting with a very nice FF atmosphere.

Point is, I don't think it's just a question of "back in my days" since I did not play them in the chronological order and played some of them quite recently, plus I found some very different experiences from game to game. So I'm not looking for new games to repeat what I liked from previous ones.

I also think that those games I like the most (FFVI, VII, X, chrono trigger) had fundamental game play, storyline progression and character development divergences, yet they recreated, to me, this very unique atmosphere that makes me want to play them again today.

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Originally Posted by northernsky

I was not referring to VII (more like VI, IV, or chrono trigger, which is about the order I played them, I may be a old older than you put me on), but I get your point.

But now that you mention it, I played VII a lot later and found the same addicting FF atmosphere. I played FFXII maybe 5 years ago, found it bland and boring, then actually played X after, and found it addicting with a very nice FF atmosphere.

Point is, I don't think it's just a question of "back in my days" since I did not play them in the chronological order and played some of them quite recently, plus I found some very different experiences from game to game. So I'm not looking for new games to repeat what I liked from previous ones.

I also think that those games I like the most (FFVI, VII, X, chrono trigger) had fundamental game play, storyline progression and character development divergences, yet they recreated, to me, this very unique atmosphere that makes me want to play them again today.

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how can you mention VI & Chrono and then VII and X together ? The only game out of those 4 that has everything you mention is VI, chrono had no character development outside of Frog, every character was the same at the end as they where at the start :/