DF Tanks and Whm

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

Since ur mist likely have to run normal mode multiple time, the minutes and seconds can really start to pile up.

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You are enforcing your playstyle on others.
There's people that actually don't like to rush or clear things fast.
Even if they have ran it 100 times.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

And this is why u get so many terrible player in df

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I'm more inclined to think terrible players in DF are supported by tanks who think Divine Veil is an effective means to mitigate a tank buster.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

Its an aoe for the entire party within 15y, and it also wouldn't hurt to go back to shield oath for a single tank buster b4 going back to sword.

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Divine Veil does NOT provide a shield for the tank that uses it. It only provides shields for everyone else within range.

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Originally Posted by aesteval

I'm more inclined to think terrible players in DF are supported by tanks who think Divine Veil is an effective means to mitigate a tank buster.

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Burn...

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Divine Veil does NOT provide a shield for the tank that uses it. It only provides shields for everyone else within range.

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Also: The amount of healers I've seen who have NO idea what that means/is - I even have a macro telling them to heal me to trigger the shield, but like 70% of the time I have to cast cure on myself to not let it go to waste... so yeah, I wont drop my tank stance for a healer who cant throw me a single healing spell within 20 seconds (yes, its 30, but at 10 I'll just trigger it) to give everyone a shield... I would love to pull more dps and play "better" but I'm not taking that risk in DF... I rather spend like one more minute in that dungeon if it prevents a wipe...

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

go ahead and kick/heckle me because I was in tank stance so my DPS isn't "acceptable". I have no issue filing that report.

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And as long as someone said something to you about it being a difference in playstyle before doing it - have fun with that report doing zilch.

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

go ahead and kick/heckle me because I was in tank stance so my DPS isn't "acceptable". I have no issue filing that report.

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No one with a little bit of brain will flame you in the chat for your dps and kick you then. If someone does that he deserves the report just because he is stupid and for not knowing for what a parser should be used in general.

You will just be kicked without knowing why or with the different playstyle reason. You can file a ton of reports for that and nothing will happen because this is a legit reason for SE to kick someone.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

Its an aoe for the entire party within 15y, and it also wouldn't hurt to go back to shield oath for a single tank buster b4 going back to sword.

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It's an AoE for everyone in the party within 15y EXCEPT FOR THE PALADIN THAT USED IT! It is still not an effective example. And here you are telling us to go back to Shield Oath for a single tank buster when earlier you were saying we should maximise DPS by not using our tank stance wherever possible and that Paladin had a cooldown for every single tank buster. Which is it? I'm ready to fire on all cylinders here even if it gets me permanently banned from the game here so be wary how you answer this. I'm all for imporoving and helping players by the way and always try to help people out but you have to remember in EU/NA DF is a roll of the dice and most people in DF will NOT try to improve. I'm trying to get better at DRK (I usually PLD the expert runs) and like I said I err on the side of caution. I'm taking the route that's least likely to cause a wipe rather than expecting everyone to be perfect. Even if it means extra minutes in the duty, even if I'm running it octodecillions of times. And I would gladly kick you for playstyle differences if you were to cause this much of a scene saying everyone has to be perfect. Even if it resulted in a report and me being permanently banned from the game without appeal.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Also: The amount of healers I've seen who have NO idea what that means/is - I even have a macro telling them to heal me to trigger the shield, but like 70% of the time I have to cast cure on myself to not let it go to waste... so yeah, I wont drop my tank stance for a healer who cant throw me a single healing spell within 20 seconds (yes, its 30, but at 10 I'll just trigger it) to give everyone a shield... I would love to pull more dps and play "better" but I'm not taking that risk in DF... I rather spend like one more minute in that dungeon if it prevents a wipe...

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I've been guilty of this - mainly from being in DPS stance during a small amount of down time and knowing the said tank can trigger it themselves when they really don't have any other reason to use Cure or Clemency. Other than me failing to do my main job which is to heal and/or shield the party, depending on which healer I'm currently using. Most tanks pop the cooldown very little time before raid wide damage goes out, too. Especially being a fan of precasting heals, they tend to come out as the damage is done or slightly after.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

you are telling us to go back to Shield Oath for a single tank buster when earlier you were saying we should maximise DPS by not using our tank stance wherever possible and that Paladin had a cooldown for every single tank buster.

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Normally I tank on Warrior or Drk, but I went back and did it on a Paladin, so for punishing heat, its gonna be Rampart, Rampart (after the adds), Sentinel, Rampart, Hallowground, Rampart, Sentinel, Rampart, it should be dead by this point.

Can't expect "normal groups" to pull any sort of specific numbers as long as the game doesn't give the "normal player" a way to see what sort of numbers they're doing.

1k?
400dps?

Means nothing to a player who has no way of judging themselves anyway.
Get an official parser added to the game (including PS4), then we'll talk.
Without doing that, you're a mute screaming at a deaf guy to turn around and wondering why it's not working.

If I'm on WHM doing AoE damage I'll cast a Medica 2 and a Regen on the tank so I don't have to worry about healing him the entire time I'm spamming Holy and occasionally Aero 3 on the mob.

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Originally Posted by Cold_Raven

Get an official parser added to the game (including PS4), then we'll talk.
Without doing that, you're a mute screaming at a deaf guy to turn around and wondering why it's not working.

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I would love an in game parse, it will more accurate than 3rd party.
Sadly many people are against it but I think they will be added at some point.

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Originally Posted by seraf

If I'm on WHM doing AoE damage I'll cast a Medica 2 and a Regen on the tank so I don't have to worry about healing him the entire time I'm spamming Holy and occasionally Aero 3 on the mob.

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sadly Medica II is not a single target and its going to pull massive aggro from overhealing, have u tried looking at the aggro bar underneath the job icon on the party list.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

sadly Medica II is not a single target and its going to pull massive aggro from overhealing, have u tried looking at the aggro bar underneath the job icon on the party list.

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I'm fully aware but have never had an issue with it in all my years of playing. I also know if I begin pulling too much enmity I can use Shroud of Saints to correct it. I refuse to be an idle Healer in DF and I know how to mitigate enmity generation and conserve MP when needed.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

I would love an in game parse, it will more accurate than 3rd party.
Sadly many people are against it but I think they will be added at some point.

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Me too.

My best attempt at a compromise I can see them going for:

1. Show each individual their personal stats for the instance at the end.
2. Do not show each individual the personal stats for the other people they ran with at the end.
3. Do show each individual the average and top stats for the instance at the end (no player names attached)... for comparing how you're doing to others without allowing for easy flame-wars.

Is it possible to show a real-time, running "DPS meter" as the battle is going on? (I don't know much about these things). If so... that would be cool to have in a corner or something too.

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

Who cares who's pulling what if you are getting through the content.

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Y'know, technically you only need 1 DPS to actually complete any dungeon in the game. I guess next time I queue for DF as DPS I'll just afk, since apparently having more than enough DPS isn't necessary. It'd be weird if I got kicked for that, right?

Why are people complaining about Tank dps when 90% of ACTUAL DPS cant even top pass 250 - 500? Start realizing that Tanks cant be the god-send dps that you want to be Remember folks - Tanks are Tanks and aren't made to be high damage bashers otherwise what would be the point of playing dps when you can just go in as full tanks with 1 healer with high dps and never die? Oh wait.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Not sure how, I cant even get that over 3 minutes on a dummy.

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Dummy doesn't have group debuffs applied and you can't proc shield swipe; also are you using fracture? goring blade? scorn's DoT is useful too. Are you using HQ food & Pots?

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Originally Posted by Empress

Why are people complaining about Tank dps when 90% of ACTUAL DPS cant even top pass 250 - 500? Start realizing that Tanks cant be the god-send dps that you want to be Remember folks - Tanks are Tanks and aren't made to be high damage bashers otherwise what would be the point of playing dps when you can just go in as full tanks with 1 healer with high dps and never die? Oh wait.

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STOP with your logic! We can't have that crap here!

#dutyfinder
#unrealisticDFexpectations
#lulok
#Gilgamesh
#goodluckwiththatman

Whenever I Tank (which will be PLD) my only self rules are: 1) Hold Arrgo on every pulled enemy & 2) use Def buff's acordingly

I only drop Sheild for Sword oath (if I feal like it) in boss fights for 3 conditions:
-Healer has shown mass skill in DPS'n & Healing on the probable large pull I did to get to the boss (or I know said healer)
-DPS are not giving me arrgo problems in Shield... especially if I stoped using Halone combo awhile ago
-Boss has predictable spots of low dmg or no dmg (won't drop it for high dmg fights, AoE or single target dodgeable or otherwise, like A12)

When I Heal (WHM only) the "Hate" I might be making is not normally seen as I have Marco's for my DMG moves baced off targeting my allies, yet with this I have never pulled arrgo of a Tank unless their not using a AOE arrgo moves on a mass pull (which cause is a "Why u not AoE arrgo controlling on a 4+ mob pull?") also Medica 2 to me is for AoE heavy fights or bonus HoT's to allow me more stance time

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Y'know, technically you only need 1 DPS to actually complete any dungeon in the game. I guess next time I queue for DF as DPS I'll just afk, since apparently having more than enough DPS isn't necessary. It'd be weird if I got kicked for that, right?

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Just because not everyone pushes for the same goals you think it's ok to be a complete liability to the team and do nothing.. again this is why MMO communities are going downhill as getting through content is not enough anymore its all about shaving off that few extra seconds so you can stand around afk in (location of choice) and don't use the it's my time being wasted excuse you're playing an mmo for christs sake it's the biggest timesink game you can waste time on.

I've played this game since 2010 and tbh this community is getting more WoW/LoL like every week due to people wanting everyone to play "their" way, I personally only ever get to play the game once or twice a week these days and I could give a damn if I'm pulling your wanted DPS I play for me downtime not for you.

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

[...] as getting through content is not enough anymore [...]

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Uhm...you yourself just scolded him as "complete liability" for doing the bare minimum needed for "getting through content" one sentence ago >_>

You're contradicting yourself here. Either all that matters is clearing the content, then it doesn't matter how much of a liability people are as long as the content is still getting cleared before the 90 minutes timer run out or it's not all that matters and people should attempt to perform.

There is another contradiction in telling others that the time waste argument isn't a good one in MMOs because they're innately timesink-heavy and at the same time admitting that you only play for yourself in a cooperative multiplayer game, not for others, when that, too, is innate to the genre.

I advise thinking this through for a while.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Stuff

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I couldnt care less I get through the content but if he's going to just afk and be a dick then yes kick him he at least has to contribute, and I don't expect everyone to play at my pace I still do my part but I'm not going to go out of my way to make a game I enjoy a second job stop nitpicking.

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Originally Posted by Llus

Dummy doesn't have group debuffs applied and you can't proc shield swipe; also are you using fracture? goring blade? scorn's DoT is useful too. Are you using HQ food & Pots?

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Just want to point out that at 220 total potency, Fracture is a DPS loss for a level 60 PLD and should not be used. Goring combo averages 330 potency per GCD, and Royal Authority combo averages 233 potency per GCD. Fracture was a (very slight) DPS boost back at level 50 cap, with RoH combo averaging 203 potency per GCD, but those days are long gone...

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Uhm...you yourself just scolded him as "complete liability" for doing the bare minimum needed for "getting through content" one sentence ago >_>

You're contradicting yourself here. Either all that matters is clearing the content, then it doesn't matter how much of a liability people are as long as the content is still getting cleared before the 90 minutes timer run out or it's not all that matters and people should attempt to perform.

There is another contradiction in telling others that the time waste argument isn't a good one in MMOs because they're innately timesink-heavy and at the same time admitting that you only play for yourself in a cooperative multiplayer game, not for others, when that, too, is innate to the genre.

I advise thinking this through for a while.

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Expecting someone to at least try while not expecting them to be the best are not mutually exclusive and thus not contradictory at all.

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Originally Posted by Aramina

Expecting someone to at least try while not expecting them to be the best are not mutually exclusive and thus not contradictory at all.

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This. Expecting specific numbers of dps from a tank or healer seems unreasonable. As long as they're trying to throw some dps in whenever they comfortably can without losing control of their primary role, it's fine with me. It's when a healer just sits around when no one needs healing or a tank or dps aren't throwing on a dot or damage buff when it starts to look lazy and I might suggest something in case they're just unaware.

Average/bad players are plentiful in DF, this is no news - people want to clear their weekly content by facerolling and doing little else besides pressing 1-2-3 combos, but I think your post oversimplifies this a little bit.
I do sometimes do DF content as a tank, and try to use my DPS stance as often as I can - only WHEN and IF I fell that i can safely do so without losing agro or causing a potential wipe. There's situations when this is just not possible, especially if the tank has ilvl significantly lower than the ilvl of the DPS and the DPS are doing their roles and rotations as they should. For example, my tank is i250, and when I come across people decked in full i270 who know their jobs inside and out and perform more than adequately (this is unusual but it DOES happen), I have trouble keeping aggro when I get too adventurous with stance dancing.

For WHM yeah med2 is sort of not very efficient MP wise and doesn't heal much outside of divine seal, but here too I'm guilty of using it when throwing out as much regen as i can on the tank and team so I can switch to CS for as long as I can.

Besides that, it's unreasonable to expect to find only top tier players in duties, specially in DF... personally if the team finishes the instance within reasonable time and they're not obviously cheating and are at least performing moderately... it's whatever.

tl;dr both situations you mentioned are only "bad" on certain circumstances and top tier players aren't the only kind of people playing

I just had a run expert roulette were I was not able to hold hate off of the one of the DPS without tank stance. Of course I would only drop tank stance for the bosses anyway but now I don't think I really should be doing that in randos that I don't trust. I don't care what some random player on Greg thinks about that and you guys really shouldn't either.

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Originally Posted by Empress

what would be the point of playing dps when you can just go in as full tanks with 1 healer with high dps and never die? Oh wait.

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Actually...for most content you can freely replace DPS with tanks. Some content you don't even need healers (including with ilvl sync.) ^_^ You were probably already getting to that point, but I wanted to voice it out loud.

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

Just because not everyone pushes for the same goals you think it's ok to be a complete liability to the team and do nothing

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

I couldnt care less I get through the content but if he's going to just afk and be a dick then yes kick him he at least has to contribute, and I don't expect everyone to play at my pace I still do my part but I'm not going to go out of my way to make a game I enjoy a second job stop nitpicking.

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Just going by what you said, my dude:

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Who cares who's pulling what if you are getting through the content.

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

I couldnt care less I get through the content but if he's going to just afk and be a dick then yes kick him he at least has to contribute, and I don't expect everyone to play at my pace I still do my part but I'm not going to go out of my way to make a game I enjoy a second job stop nitpicking.

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So what you are basically saying is that you play the way you want and you don't care if you annoy 3 or 7 other people with it if they have to carry you. Thats the typical attitude of people where you complain about. If you play in a party you have to work with your party and not against it...

You say the com is like the com in LoL? I don't know where you play final fantasy or where you play LoL but the com in final fantasy is far away from the LoL com.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

How often do u run across tanks pugging Alex normal that tend to stay in defensive stance the entire time and can hardly pull 700 dps

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What's wrong with tanks tanking?

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Originally Posted by FabricioRF

What's wrong with tanks tanking?

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thats like saying dps, just auto attacking, or healing standing there doing nothing until someone takes damage, they are doing their jobs, but not putting any effort into improving.