For stormblood do you want the gated conten path of hw, or the free roam path of arr?

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

Huh? Lol Last

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And I totally said for the player base this is good I never said my way of playing was how people should play , I just don't see the connection of ninja and monk, to blm, and whm , one does magic, the others box or do karate , two totally different forms of combat that only this game would let you do both on one character, doesn't make sense to me but it works for the game that was a side issue. But I also said that ok one gate in arr then you can go anywhere you need to on the map its not gated by doing chunks for 20 msq at a time to get to each zone.

Im literally making the smallest request and people are going in on me , the request is simply have storm blood more like arr where you get there and you can go to any area on the new map without it being gated to do so. I don't see the problem here that way for those that wana do story and go the msq only route can, but for those that like to explore and do everything else and get to the story when they want can also. That is literally the difference between hw and arr, hw is streamline unlock everything through msq, arr is get to 15 and you have options these are two totally different things and its silly that anyone would pretend that its not.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

Chocobo use, heck mounts in general, are locked .

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Actually your wrong dusk vigil is an optional dungeon, and its gated by the msq, (Level 51+ players need to start the level 51 Sidequest For All the Nights to Come. Players can start the quest by talking to Wealdtheow in Coerthas Western Highlands (x16, y22). To unlock the quest, players need to complete the level 51 Main Scenario Quest Sounding Out the Amphitheatre.)

This is an optional dungeon locked behind msq for no reason and its a side quest dungeon. Like come on guys you act like everything in this game makes sense like seriously , oh my character can kill all the primals in the game but runs at the end of the arr story from soldiers, when in reality one holy spam and they are all dead, thats called making zero sense. Seems like people accept when content doesn't make sense for when it fits into their on perception, like I said again warrior of light doesnt equal you can play every job in the game and it makes sense ,but yet people do it because its an option. In no movie ,or game have I ever seen a boxing mage, does the game explain this no they dont but yet to travel to a zone it has to be explained thats just picking and choosing right there.

All Im talking about is options here, like I said I have 4 characters I could of been to the end of the this game and then some but I would rather not there is nothing at the end of the game that is appealing to rush it, its in the midst that is fun. What I see are people that are done with story sitting in lomisa going idle doing nothing and doing two dungeons a day are doing the same raids over and over while I want and plan to raid , I would much rather do more than one type of instance with my time. Arr is in no way shape or form gated the way that hw is , you get to 15, you can go to mor dona, you can go to chortheas, where was the explanation there, there wasn't one but I still did it , did it effect me when I finally got to that point in the story no it did not. Just the same way it wouldnt in hw, are any other expansion, it doesn't make sense that we kill the same story mood dungeons again after we have beaten them but yet we do it. Its a game at the end of the day and you don't have to connect the dots to everything let people play how they want. If you want to finish the story in a month then ok but everyone doesn't want to , because the game is boring at the end.

You are, indeed, being silly. You're comparing apples and watermelons. ARR was free-roam due to 1.0. HW isn't because you were never there in 1.0. Tell us again how your Bsm of Light is going to get through Dravania without being labelled a heretic, or how your Btn of Light intends to "explore" something that is said to not even exist.

YOU are confusing player knowledge with character knowledge.

I hope that Stormblood is gated like HW. There's no reason for the Alc of Light to wander into Garlean territory without providing proof they won't be captured or executed.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

... because the game is boring at the end.

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I am not commenting on whether it is or not, however, you have yet to finish the game... or even come close to finishing the game, you really have no valid comment on that topic.

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Originally Posted by Aramina

I am not commenting on whether it is or not, however, you have yet to finish the game... or even come close to finishing the game, you really have no valid comment on that topic.

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And the reason being is I have been playing less than 6 months I don't have to catch up with anyone , others have been playing this game for years, So why should I play as if I have been playing for years because I haven't. Like I said I did the msq from level 35 to hw and became a mentor within a week, there will never be enough story content in the game that outweighs everything else in the game to do.

I could easily finish hw the same way but why I pay every month to play everyday, and If my play time goes down to an hour or two each day instead of five or more then that's not satisfying to me. I pay for alts, I buy from the cash shop, I'm not asking for a jump potion I'm just saying let people roam and then figure out what it is they want to do with their story. If they opened the fly zones later on in the games life time, it will effect nothing about the lore of the game not a single thing.

Because its not a straight forward story because of how many times you go back in time ,in an rpg, you do an instance and you cant go back and redo it again, but in this game you do which makes it different, things go out of order and out of place does it not. So why hold on to something that doesn't even need to be held onto. I have met several players that are in arr story that just play the game they do msq when they get ready to. A stream line story to unlock zones is unwarranted, because you go back in forth to the past and the present because its an mmo not an rpg single player game. There are a few people that have commented on this thread that have said the same thing that freedom is what they enjoyed, Im all about story but you dont have to make everything about the story when you cant create enough story that is going to last as long as everything else in the game.

"I've never eaten chicken, but it's disgusting!"

"I've never heard jazz music, but it's terrible!"

"I've never gotten to endgame, but it's boring!"

I can't.

Option A: Spend time on forums complaining things you want to do are locked behind story.
Option B: Do story to unlock all things.

Which do you feel is a better use of one's time?

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Like come on guys you act like everything in this game makes sense like seriously , oh my character can kill all the primals in the game but runs at the end of the arr story from soldiers, when in reality one holy spam and they are all dead, thats called making zero sense. Seems like people accept when content doesn't make sense for when it fits into their on perception,

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Except...there's a difference between the Warrior of Light slaying a primal, a being that is bleeding the land dry of aether, and them killing an army of Brass Blades or Crystal Braves that are chasing them due to a horrible misconception. The Warrior of Light is a hero of Eorzea, and it wouldn't make sense for a hero-archetype character to Holy-spam-to-death soldiers chasing them--soldiers they once considered friends and allies--just because they are being chased. Later on, it's revealed that most individuals never doubted your innocence with regards to the Bloody Banquet, and most don't bother to try and apprehend you. Which is why you can still return to Ul'dah and wander freely after 2.55 and before you are, more or less, redeemed during the course of the story, but that's all beside the point. The point here is not skewed player logic--it is the story.

There are plenty of things in this game that make zero sense to me as a player (not really going to get into them, because that's not what this discussion is about). But that isn't the point. It makes sense with regards to the story of FFXIV. To bring up Azys Lla again: it is gated for a reason, and that reason is related to the lore and the story of this game. This game is a Final Fantasy game, and Final Fantasy, at its core, has always been an RPG-style genre with emphasis on each individual game's story and lore. Not a free-roam Sandbox game.

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Arr is in no way shape or form gated the way that hw is , you get to 15, you can go to mor dona, you can go to chortheas, where was the explanation there, there wasn't one but I still did it , did it effect me when I finally got to that point in the story no it did not. Just the same way it wouldnt in hw, are any other expansion,

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We already explained why the ARR areas are not gated--because of 1.0. 1.0 was NOT gated, and if the devs decided to gate these areas in 2.0, that wouldn't make much sense for the legacy players, which, again, the only reason 2.0 even exists is thanks to them. "Hey, we know that you could freely roam into Coerthas back in 1.0, but that's no longer the case. Now you need to do this many quests to go there." Doesn't make sense. 2.0 preserved a lot of aspects of 1.0, and the ungatedness of the areas was one of them. Not to mention that there aren't any lore-based reasons to gate such areas. The only area that is gated (in the true sense) in 2.0 is Ishgard, and there are lore-based/story-based reasons behind that.

The opposite is true in Heavensward. I'm sorry that that bothers you so much, but this is Final Fantasy. The lore is the equivalent to a Bible here. Sure, the devs bend the lore sometimes (i.e., Yokai event), but they aren't going to completely forsake it just so a few people that want to level AHEAD of the story (again, not the design of this game) can wander off into obscure places because they want to. Like another poster said, this game isn't based off of player knowledge, but character knowledge. Our character doesn't know that Azys Lla even exists (not many people do). Make sense we can't just wander off there randomly and start doing stuff. Aside from the fact that it is barricaded.

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it doesn't make sense that we kill the same story mood dungeons again after we have beaten them but yet we do it.

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This doesn't really have anything to do with the argument at hand. We continue to enter the same duties via roulettes everyday to encourage the longevity of the game, and to help out those that are just now coming into the game. If we didn't re-enter duties, then how would new players ever hope to get past "It's Probably Pirates" and Sastasha? That's not at all related to the gated content debate.

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Its a game at the end of the day and you don't have to connect the dots to everything let people play how they want. If you want to finish the story in a month then ok but everyone doesn't want to , because the game is boring at the end.

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It is just a game. You're right. But that doesn't change the way this game was designed. Again, the devs didn't design the game around player knowledge, and those few that level ahead of the MSQ. They designed it with a story in mind, with character knowledge in mind, and in a way that you level up WITH the story, just as you would do in any other Final Fantasy RPG. It's up to developers (and any company, really) to appeal to the MAJORITY of their consumer base. You are not the majority here. The devs cannot be expected to try and cater to everyone, or try to please everyone. That is impossible.

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Originally Posted by Amirya

"I've never eaten chicken, but it's disgusting!"

"I've never heard jazz music, but it's terrible!"

"I've never gotten to endgame, but it's boring!"

I can't.

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Maybe my word choice was wrong about boring , but everything can be done while your doing the story is what I'm saying, the sense of end game to a game that never ends just is not something that intrests me. I can do the same thing that most endgame players do other than the extreme primals, and the raids.

Do I wana farm mounts sure I do that on the Arr ones I'm working on the horses, do I wana level my jobs yess been doing that all 50s aside from the ones Im doing on my alts so 8 50s on this one. Do I wana craft sure doing that now , do I wana gather doing it now, do I wana get tomes sure I can do that on my whm, do some potd, are trail roulette doing that to. Do I wana make gil yea doing that also, so what Im saying is you don't have to be at the end of the game to do stuff that players at the end of the game do. The only things you cant do are the dungeons, raids, and primals or anima weapons, which will be there cause they aren't going anywhere.

And to add I haven't even done all of the arr primals sync done them unsync but that doesnt count to me, or the raids or binding coil, I've done some of it but sense its old its hard to get a que but why skip it there is no reason to, because maybe other players have done it but I havent. Nobody is gona tell me to catch up to them when I do not have to, I will have 8 sixties before I even get to the end of hw, what is the point in rushing gear farming, or Alexander which I dont even no if I can do savage tbh so why get to a point in the game of content I have no idea if I have the skill to play in the first place? Outside of raids, primals, relics, the dungeons you do on the way to finishing the story anyway can you not do while your playing the story that an endgame player can do everything else can be done without being at the end of the game.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

~snip~

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You don't go back in time in FFXIV, sans anything related to Alexander because, you know, Alexander is a manipulator of time. RPGs let you do dungeons again, sometimes there's just no boss to beat again, and even then, that's not always the case, like certain Seiken Densetsu games (Mana series for people that don't know the proper name). People can enjoy whatever they want in FFXIV, but push comes to shove, everything is gated behind the MSQ in one form of another. You simply cannot ignore the story at all if you want to get anywhere in this world as a player. Making it not at all free roam, but is open world for the most part. If you only want to play for story, then play it and take your time doing other things waiting for the rest of the story to come out. It's no different than reading a book series and waiting a year, or years, for a sequel.

Rome wasn't built in a day. Great stories aren't either.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Like come on guys you act like everything in this game makes sense like seriously , oh my character can kill all the primals in the game but runs at the end of the arr story from soldiers, when in reality one holy spam and they are all dead, thats called making zero sense.

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Okay, that really got under my skin. For someone who says they like the story and are taking their time with it, it seems you don't actually pay attention to it. HyoMinPark gave you a pretty good synapse of what went on that is even told to you while hanging around Crystal Brave members "looking" for you. Their speech bubbles would pop over their heads saying things along the lines of they're looking for you, but they're going to pretend they didn't see you. Others even doubt that it's actually you, someone dumb enough to come back to the city while everyone is searching for the WoL; it must be a look-a-like. Actually, a lot of Hyo's points are very, very valid.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Except...there's a difference between the Warrior of Light slaying a primal, a being that is bleeding the land dry of aether, and them killing an army of Brass Blades or Crystal Braves that are

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Thanks again for your respectful comments , but ill say to your last part I would not say that I'm the minority , maybe not sixty no but players out level there msq all the time its to easy to level up in this game because its designed to level 13 characters on one.

There are many and I mean many players that go into hw that are level 52, 53, or higher, when the yoki event was around players where leveling up even faster than normal just to do those fates for the weapons. Now with the new floors in potd , the trend continues, I actually dont think I know any players that crossed over at level 50 only tbh, and Ive been in the novice my whole time playing the game.

And to your point on why arr isnt gated that was my question to start with like I mention earlier I never intended for this to be a hw and endgame thread. I asked if the base would rather have the freedom that they had in arr and the ones that actually answered the question said the next expansion could go a bit less gated zones or content. Others have just been stating their point on why hw is gated. Which it is gated and I will adjust accordingly, but still play the game the way I like it which is not stream lining the story I can always craft 250 gear once I have my weaver at 60 that's another point tho. But my question was which was more preferred not about the lore and why this are that happened.

The devs could make job quest a separate thing like they did in arr, they don have to connect them to the msq like they did with hw, its many things that could be done. It was a simple do you like how hw is gated compared to how arr is not gated. The question wasnt is arr just as gated as hw, because you have said yourself that it is not. And I for one hope that its more like arr than it is hw , because streaming lining the story only creates more people at the top of the game scrambling for stuff to do as opposed to more in the middle with a long road ahead of them to finish everything. Also you speak of the ff franchise as a whole and I also have 15 and everyone is recommending to be over leveled in that one so I wouldn't say that its like that in all of the ff games by any means

And to your first point luckily you cant control your characters actions because if they tie me up , then I would have hit them with the holy spam.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Anyone coming to the game will notice the difference, in Arr now you can be level 50 and still be on the level 25 quest in msq, but still have access to a ton of content like all the dungeons i mention 4 dungeons, that arent tied to the msq. And you can travel to any area you see fit thats in arr you cant do this in hw, also your job quest wernt locked behind what areas you where in within the msq, like it is in msq so I dont see the similarities here, with how easy it is to level now I see no reason for the things to be gated like they are now in hw.

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I agree that HW felt a bit more gated than ARR. HW made leveling a character exclusively for solo crafting/gathering a bit more difficult than it was in ARR.
Maybe SE can land right in the middle of the two but if I had to pick one or the other, I lean more toward ARR's style.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

its designed to level 13 characters on one.

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I would dsaresay it's designed for one omnicharacter with the option of paying a higher subscription fee for alternate characters. Unlike those other games where you have one character locked on one class. Ew.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

I asked if the base would rather have the freedom that they had in arr and the ones that actually answered the question said the next expansion could go a bit less gated zones or content.

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Implying there is no gating in ARR when there was, it was just far less noticeable than HW and not pertaining to the zones themselves. Unless you started in Limsa Lominsa, and did none of the story, you could, technically, run to Mor Dhona; thanks to 1.0 and retaining legacy players on certain servers only at the re-opening of FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

The devs could make job quest a separate thing like they did in arr, they don have to connect them to the msq like they did with hw

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Except with each expansion, seemingly a single job gets focused on and will be inevitably tied to the story. Heavensward was dragoon. Stormblood is monk. Job quest NPCs are not in a vacuum; they're going to make references to wars and other major events, just like in real life. That's actually good writing.

This shouldn't be a zero-sum argument...

Obviously we can't undo the way HW was designed, it's consistent with the lore. However, keep in mind that the lore is not some independently existing thing, people created the lore. In other words, they made the gates tedious and annoying on purpose. What we can do is hope that this time around they made lore that does not require the same level of gating, and that they heard the negative feedback from players who were upset by the excessive MSQ gating. There are ways to have a form of gating without wanting to make people bash our heads against the wall. For example, we know that they can do level syncing/difficulty syncing, so they could implement that for the expanded MSQ.

For lore reasons, obviously some areas will have to be gated in order to make sense, but they could make it relatively open after getting to Gyr Abania via MSQ progression (unlike HW where the Churning Mists and Dravanian Hinterlands were just 100% inaccessible even if you had reached Ishgard). That would be a decent compromise for crafters and gatherers who got shafted in HW.

If they add new jobs, they could put their guilds in the starting cities, there is no reason new guilds have to be in new zones. The whole thing where you have to level a job to 50 and finish 284 story quests before you can even touch the new jobs was, imo, really extra.

Note: I don't agree with OP that ARR was open roam. There was a good amount of healthy gating, and that's the way it should be.

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Originally Posted by Chalbee

If they add new jobs, they could put their guilds in the starting cities, there is no reason new guilds have to be in new zones. The whole thing where you have to level a job to 50 and finish 284 story quests before you can even touch the new jobs was, imo, really extra.

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Lore-wise, a lot of magic was deemed forbidden, thanks to calamities and magic's misuses that brought them on. Even non- magical classes, like dark knight, were mercilessly hunted down for story's own purpose. (The first dark knight slayed a member of the church to defend the innocent; considering Ishgard was originally a member of the Eorzean Alliance, the city-states would be more inclined to listen to the Holy See than a seemingly murderous knight).

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Thanks again for your respectful comments , but ill say to your last part I would not say that I'm the minority , maybe not sixty no but players out level there msq all the time its to easy to level up in this game because its designed to level 13 characters on one.

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I probably wasn't clear in my posts, and I apologize, but my reference to you being the minority was with regards to your previous comments about how you already have several jobs maxed out to 60, and how that was the case before you ever entered Heavensward areas. Most players, especially new ones, don't enter Ishgard with several level 60 jobs under their belts. It's not at all surprising to enter there at level 52 or 53 (I was almost level 53 when I entered Ishgard for the first time), because the 2.x stories and dungeons all give experience now (with the exception of the optional Hildibrand and Postmoogle content). What I meant was most people don't level up multiple jobs to 60 before they complete a main expansion's story. Most tend to stick with one job they really love (in my case, BRD), and level it up with the story. Sure, they may end up being max level before the finish the story (I was), but not in the sense of "I'm level 60 on a level 52 MSQ." So, apologizes again, if I was unclear there.

I leveled up my main job (BRD) with the story (2.0, 2.x, and 3.0), so pardon if my information is incorrect, but my job quests--just from briefly glancing at the requisites, aren't gated by other MSQ quests. At least, not in the sense of "You have to complete the MSQ 'xxxx' in order to unlock your level 56 BRD quest." I also do not think that any of the job quests send you to gated areas like Azys Lla (I know, I know, I keep bringing that place up, but it really is a good example). Again, I would have to look into it more, because it's not really something I thought about, seeing as how I was already at endgame when I started working on my second job to 60, and my third, and my fourth, and so on. Because I went through the story on my main job, and didn't deviate to level up alt jobs until I had caught up with the MSQ, which was 3.1 by the time I reached "endgame." But, I guess I just get confused reading about how you say job quests are gated by the MSQ, but they really aren't...not in a true sense.

Being over-leveled certainly helps make content easier by ways of gear and attributes and so on, but I don't think developers develop games in such a way as to FORCE players to be 10 levels over, or max level, in order to clear a boss, or a final boss. It may be recommended to be over-leveled to make the fights easier, but I don't think that it is the design.

To answer your original question (seeing as how I have posted several times in this thread, yet continued to ignore the original question): I like ARR as it is, and I also like HW as it is. I find it exciting to explore, yes, but I find it more exciting to stumble upon a gated area, and learn that I have to do such-and-such objectives to gain access. That gives me something to work towards, and a new area to look forward to the closer I approach endgame. I like the idea of having areas gated due to story reasons, because it give the areas character and a history, and it makes the game more complex and interesting to me. I absolutely love the amount of story and lore behind FFXIV (and any of the Final Fantasy games, really), so story-gates and lore-gates don't bother me a bit. After all, I did stay up all night refreshing the SE Store page so I could snag one of those lore books. And I continue to flip through and read it quite often. And I play on alts to relive the story, not have alternate characters to bypass raid lockouts, or to bypass the three crafting specialist limits. For the story. So, to answer the original question, I prefer both, and gates don't bother me.

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Originally Posted by Chalbee

For lore reasons, obviously some areas will have to be gated in order to make sense, but they could make it relatively open after getting to Gyr Abania via MSQ progression (unlike HW where the Churning Mists and Dravanian Hinterlands were just 100% inaccessible even if you had reached Ishgard). That would be a decent compromise for crafters and gatherers who got shafted in HW.

If they add new jobs, they could put their guilds in the starting cities, there is no reason new guilds have to be in new zones. The whole thing where you have to level a job to 50 and finish 284 story quests before you can even touch the new jobs was, imo, really extra.

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With regards to the crafting and gathering classes, FFXIV wasn't really designed based around the tradecraft classes, but the battlecraft ones. Thus, why crafters and gatherers hit that roadblock at level 50. The story is centered around a Warrior of Light, not a Weaver of Light. So it makes sense for the gates to be there. Frustrating, yes, but it's the design of the game.

With regards to the extra jobs, I can't speak for AST because I don't remember much of the job story line, and I haven't finish MCH yet, but DRK references events from 2.x. So, story-wise, it wouldn't make sense if you could unlock the job in the midst of the 2.0 story, since you will have no idea who Leviathan is, or what Fray is talking about when he mentions Ul'dah in your level 50 quest. Also, MCH and DRK were both born in Ishgard, a community that is inaccessible in 2.0. So, again, it wouldn't make sense for an individual to unlock DRK while trekking through ARR's original storyline. Since they have no access to Ishgard, nor do they know much about the history of that nation outside of the fact that they're embroiled in the thousand-year-long Dragonsong War.

The jobs being locked behind the expansion is frustrating, I agree. But I can see why from a lore-standpoint. And yes, there is probably a money-making standpoint behind gating them as well. For 4.0, if they could not tie in the additional jobs with the story behind Ala Mhigo, or have them make reference to 3.x events, it would make sense for them to be completely ungated. But SE has already set a precedent here, and they tend to stick to their current formulas.

I have a level 60 monk and am only on the level 54 story in HW. No job quests have been gated for me by the MSQ. Most of the people are on your case cause we started when the game was released, and it wasn't as easy then as it is now, so we can't relate to how you say ARR was not gated. But this isn't WOW, it's Final Fantasy, and as everyone who knows FF since the 80's, it is a story focused game and is never going to change no matter how many people want it to.

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Originally Posted by Chalbee

keep in mind that the lore is not some independently existing thing, people created the lore. In other words, they made the gates tedious and annoying on purpose. What we can do is hope that this time around they made lore that does not require the same level of gating, and that they heard the negative feedback from players who were upset by the excessive MSQ gating.

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I love you.

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Comparing the lore to the Bible is a neat analogy. Both can take a lot of fun out of life if you follow them religiously. But if you're into that kind of thing, you can get quite mighty kicks and good feelings out of it.

As far as crafters etc are concerned, I just wanted to keep my battle classes geared with the equipment I made myself. As in leveling crafters at about the same pace as battle classes. But HW gating didn't allow even that. The mats for "current" gear came from the next zone which I wasn't able to access. Not that it would have mattered anyway, the story geared my main and alt battle classes with HQ gear. Yet another decision I really can't understand.

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Originally Posted by Shug

I have a level 60 monk and am only on the level 54 story in HW. No job quests have been gated for me by the MSQ. Most of the people are on your case cause we started when the game was released, and it wasn't as easy then as it is now, so we can't relate to how you say ARR was not gated. But this isn't WOW, it's Final Fantasy, and as everyone who knows FF since the 80's, it is a story focused game and is never going to change no matter how many people want it to.

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But what I keep repeating is that Im not asking to take away the gate of dungeons, or primals, or raids I 100 percent support this in the game. I simply would just like to travel anywhere that is in the game without it being gated. Im not asking to go do an extreme primal , just because Im already level 60 , because I haven't even fought said extreme primal in the game.

Im saying what I would like to see is no fly lock outs in the next expansion, here it is I finish my msq for arr go to hw where I hear the story is so much better and exciting and I was happy and I get there and realize. Oh wait so I cant just walk anywhere that I please like Ive been doing for 4 in a half months now , so I cant pace the story how I would like anymore. My argument is this , I am not a sequel type person I'm not a cliff hanger type , if the next bit of story isnt gona be introduced for another 3 months then Im not going to do it and then know that I have zero msq to do until I wait three months. Im not the do eight quest here and then wait another 3 months for another 8 quest.

Also the fact that there isnt really an endgame like I said , you can do essentially the same thing in the middle of the game as you can do at the end of the game. Aside from Alexander raids, dungeons, and the level 60 primals extreme, everything else is the same at level 50 as it is when your level 60. That ,being leveling jobs, getting gear you can have all level 250 gear before reaching the end of the game and etc, doing crafts all of those things, can be done while your doing the story. Hunts , leves, fates, all of these things arent lore and if you are the right level you should be able to do them. If you have to stream line the story then there needs to be more things to do after the story as a reward as opposed to the same dungeons youve already done on your way to finishing the story and a raid, literally everything else can be done while your leveling the only difference is now you dont have anymore msq and your left to create content for yourself.


Also the level 56 pali quest is in the forelands so its gated until you get that area

I support gated content since its gating RMT thats the only reason. unless SE can figure out another way to stop them, which i dont think they are intrested, when i report RMT the GMT send me back a generic message, so this means, they depend on bots to fight RMT, bots can't do much.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

But what I keep repeating is that Im not asking to take away the gate of dungeons, or primals, or raids I 100 percent support this in the game. I simply would just like to travel anywhere that is in the game without it being gated. Im not asking to go do an extreme primal , just because Im already level 60 , because I haven't even fought said extreme primal in the game.

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It's been explained many times. You can't go to those areas because you (meaning your character Nic Pay) does not know those places exist, or if you do, the denizens of that place do not like you until the story reveals them/has some cause for the citizenry to accept you.

edit: To start back at the beginning. Asking if I want things to be open in Stormblood compared to Heavensward is the same as asking "do I want the game to be less-story focused (either things not tying into the story or it not mattering if it is or not)?" and the answer is, and will remain, no.

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Originally Posted by Shug

I have a level 60 monk and am only on the level 54 story in HW. No job quests have been gated for me by the MSQ. Most of the people are on your case cause we started when the game was released, and it wasn't as easy then as it is now, so we can't relate to how you say ARR was not gated. But this isn't WOW, it's Final Fantasy, and as everyone who knows FF since the 80's, it is a story focused game and is never going to change no matter how many people want it to.

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Um... the first Final Fantasy isn't story very focused. You had a goal, sure, but the story kinda took a back seat.
FFXI was also pretty story heavy, but it still didn't gate players out of the starter expansion zones. You needed to progress through the story to enter the harder/end-game areas, but that was just about it. Why can't FFXIV do what FFXI did in that regard?

I forgot to touch on this point in my previous wall-of-text. I will try not to do another wall-o-text post, but I did want to say this:


People are talking about the "excessive gating" present in this game, but I have never encountered any sort of gate that I considered "excessive." I acknowledge that "excessive" here is obviously subjective, but I'm curious as to what people consider "excessive." The only thing I can think of (and that's just based on the amount of complaints I see) is the fact that DRK, MCH, and AST are all locked behind 1. purchasing Heavensward, and 2. Trekking through 2.x to get into Ishgard and start 3.0's story.

One poster said that the lore isn't an independent entity, and they are correct; it's not. It was created by those that developed this game. Countless hours spent creating backstories and histories...I really do think that's something that should be respected; that isn't easily done, and it takes an astounding amount of work to make everything flow and make sense. And even with all the work put into it, yes, plot holes still exist, because nothing is perfect, but still. It's truly amazing, the lore in the game, and I think that demands some semblance of respect. And if content-gating comes with the lore, then that should be respected as well. The gates make sense because they go with the story behind this game. It's not like they're arbitrary. At least, I don't find them arbitrary. But again, this is all subjective and based on people's opinions.

Gonna stop now before I make another wall post. orz

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Um... the first Final Fantasy isn't story very focused. You had a goal, sure, but the story kinda took a back seat.
FFXI was also pretty story heavy, but it still didn't gate players out of the starter expansion zones. You needed to progress through the story to enter the harder/end-game areas, but that was just about it. Why can't FFXIV do what FFXI did in that regard?

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I played FFXI only for a couple of hours, so bear with me here. I don't know much about it, but...

With regards to "starter expansion zones," we've already established that ARR is pretty-much free roam, even from the get-go. Albeit, you have to walk everywhere before level 15, but it's still doable, even if dangerous (walking from Gridania all the way to Mor Dhona as a level 1 archer is very exciting though!). I'd say that, for FFXIV, ARR is considered the "starting expansion" or "base game" here, with HW being the "expansion of the base game." In HW, certain areas are gated, requiring you to progress through the story to access them (Hinterlands, Azys Lla, Idyllshire), so how is that different from what you said FFXI did? If you still had to progress through the story to reach the harder/endgame areas in FFXI, how is that different that what you do in HW? Granted, the Churning Mists probably aren't considered endgame, per say, but I'd say they're up there with the "higher level areas."

Not trying to argue, just wanting to see why you consider FFXI different in this sense. :3

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Originally Posted by Aramina

It's been explained many times. You can't go to those areas because you (meaning your character Nic Pay) does not know those places exist, or if you do, the denizens of that place do not like you until the story reveals them/has some cause for the citizenry to accept you.

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And thats fine and this is why I asked can we see less of this , in the next expansion the only good legit reason I have gotten is rmt for gating. Which I almost can get behind that, but se needs to do a better job with dealing with that anyway so its no reason to gate everything just because of that. But my whole thread was do you like arr exploration better than you like bring on the gates hw questing chain not the story itself.

It wasnt about lore or reasoning or anything both are already in the game. What isnt in the game is stormblood and if the players get up in arms that you can just walk anywhere you want in these zones then I honestly wouldnt no what to say because its really not that big of a deal. Because like Ive mention nothing goes in order directly because its an mmo so why create some illusion of this by gating the zones with the msq.

People have mention that players have been complaining a while about how gated things are so maybe the devs will take note and not do it as bad in the next expansion. Especially the jobs I hope they dont gate those for new players , cant tell you how many people have complained that drk and astro are gated.

I editted my post to reflect my opinion on things going forward. I will amend that comment here and say though if the story is done in such a way that it makes sense that it is just one blob of place that you can know every inch of from the get go then I am ok with that... my problem is if the story doesn't exist or doesn't matter.

Uh?

Content was gated in ARR as well. I don't see the difference.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I acknowledge that "excessive" here is obviously subjective, but I'm curious as to what people consider "excessive."

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HW stepped into my annoyance zone when the game told me the exact order and way to proceed through the expansion leveling/story content. I admit I probably wouldn't be pissed off at all if ARR would have been the same way. I had some freedom in ARR, HW took that away and I got triggered. That probably doesn't qualify as excessive but it made this player very unhappy. I almost stopped playing because of that but my nice guildies kept me going.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Uh?

Content was gated in ARR as well. I don't see the difference.

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referring to zones not actual content once you hit 15 you can go pretty much anywhere you want in arr

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

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My argument in using FFXI is that the only zones that were ever gated are those that require story progression and in most cases, were candidates for end-game zones. Things like Sky and Sea required you to do the story and I am perfectly fine with that. Outside of that, though, you can still go to Whitegate, Adoulin, the Past and Norg at any time (the main requirement usually being a quest unrelated to the story) and explore most of their zones. This meant you were free to unlock the new Jobs as they came out, without needing to be level 50 first (you did need to be level 30+ on your current Job, though).

You do realize that this is a linear novel type game, not a "choose your own adventure" book?

If you want that, I highly recommend the Sims. I love the series.

(Also, why would you even play if you don't like msq endings?? That made my head hurt, because... I just can't.)

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Lore-wise, a lot of magic was deemed forbidden, thanks to calamities and magic's misuses that brought them on. Even non- magical classes, like dark knight, were mercilessly hunted down for story's own purpose. (The first dark knight slayed a member of the church to defend the innocent; considering Ishgard was originally a member of the Eorzean Alliance, the city-states would be more inclined to listen to the Holy See than a seemingly murderous knight).

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

With regards to the extra jobs (snip for length) The jobs being locked behind the expansion is frustrating, I agree. But I can see why from a lore-standpoint. And yes, there is probably a money-making standpoint behind gating them as well. For 4.0, if they could not tie in the additional jobs with the story behind Ala Mhigo, or have them make reference to 3.x events, it would make sense for them to be completely ungated. But SE has already set a precedent here, and they tend to stick to their current formulas.

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The point I’m trying to make, though is that these are all conscious decisions. For example, they didn’t have to make Dark Knights fill the lore role that they do, they could have plopped them in Gridania and said they practice some ancient Gelmorran swordcraft or whatever. On account of the whole game being a work of fiction, there is nothing a priori that says jobs have to tie into the lore of an expansion area. SE decided that Dark Knights are an Ishgard thing, but they aren’t an Ishgard thing by default.

While we can’t be undo that decision for HW’s jobs, any new jobs in 4.0. don’t have to follow the same path. The devs write the lore for the jobs just as much as they write the lore for the MSQ, so they are more than capable of writing MSQ-independent lore for new jobs.

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Originally Posted by Chalbee

The point I’m trying to make, though is that these are all conscious decisions. For example, they didn’t have to make Dark Knights fill the lore role that they do, they could have plopped them in Gridania and said they practice some ancient Gelmorran swordcraft or whatever. On account of the whole game being a work of fiction, there is nothing a priori that says jobs have to tie into the lore of an expansion area. SE decided that Dark Knights are an Ishgard thing, but they aren’t an Ishgard thing by default.

While we can’t be undo that decision for HW’s jobs, any new jobs in 4.0. don’t have to follow the same path. The devs write the lore for the jobs just as much as they write the lore for the MSQ, so they are more than capable of writing MSQ-independent lore for new jobs.

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The few Gelmorran left are generally the Duskwright, which are met with high distrust in Gridania even now. Those that left Gelmorra founded Gridania after winning/earning a place in the Black Shroud through the elementals. The first dark knight was Ser Toriphaniel, a lowborn of Ishgard that earned nobility rank through acts and ultimately lost it willingly to defend the innocent. The class was written to be placed within Heavensward, seeing how much they purposely tied it to the Holy See of Ishgard.

I understand what you're saying, but it also raises the question, then, of why haven't we seen ___ around? At least certain classes, like white mage, are the way they are because outsiders simply aren't allowed to practice it. The WoL is a special case, but generally only the Padjal can be white mages. As it is, we've seen Ilberd and Raubahn was some magic- like abilities with swords; pretty sure they are some sort of red mage and they hail from Ala Mhigo. Taking past lore into account, people became fearful of magic, more than once, because it generally ushered in the calamities. Scholars and practitioners were put to the sword, making much of the arts lost to time- or practiced secretly in few places.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

My argument in using FFXI is that the only zones that were ever gated are those that require story progression and in most cases, were candidates for end-game zones. Things like Sky and Sea required you to do the story and I am perfectly fine with that. Outside of that, though, you can still go to Whitegate, Adoulin, the Past and Norg at any time (the main requirement usually being a quest unrelated to the story) and explore most of their zones. This meant you were free to unlock the new Jobs as they came out, without needing to be level 50 first (you did need to be level 30+ on your current Job, though).

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Ah, so you're more so on about how it's okay to gate higher-level/endgame areas behind the story, not gating other content (new jobs, quests, etc.) behind expansions or story, right? Since you mention being able to unlock the new jobs in each of the FFXI expansions? If I'm understanding correctly, that's a pretty valid concern. I know I'd love to jump right into level DRK on my alt without having to wait to finish 2.0 and 2.x, but I can understand the gating from a lore standpoint. Perhaps that's something devs can consider in the future: not gating extra jobs behind expansions.

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Originally Posted by Chalbee

While we can’t be undo that decision for HW’s jobs, any new jobs in 4.0. don’t have to follow the same path. The devs write the lore for the jobs just as much as they write the lore for the MSQ, so they are more than capable of writing MSQ-independent lore for new jobs.

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Fair enough. I wouldn't mind if they make extra jobs in future expansions ungated. I can't remember, but I'm wanting to say it's already been determined that the 4.0 jobs are going to be locked behind the expansion, but perhaps the devs can consider moving away from this formula with future expansions, and doing like Nestama said was done in FFXI: where you could still unlock the new expansion's jobs so long as you were level 30+ on your current job. That would bring up the concern of which class/combination of classes the game required in order for you to unlock a new job, unless SE decided to just do "any class level 30 or higher" as the requisite for unlocking an extra job.

They wouldn't be able to base the jobs inside the expansion's zones though, unless they opened up the expansions to those that are still in ARR. Lots of things to consider, but I do hope it's something the devs take the time to do in the future. As I said before, there will come a time where it won't be plausible to continue locking each expansion behind the previous one in a linear fashion. Because it will just be a turn-off for newer players. When we will reach that point, though, I can't say.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

The few Gelmorran left are generally the Duskwright, which are met with high distrust in Gridania even now....The first dark knight was Ser Toriphaniell...The class was written to be placed within Heavensward, seeing how much they purposely tied it to the Holy See of Ishgard.

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Ser Toblerone or whateverthecrap was invented because that's how they wanted the lore to be. He doesn't actually exist, he's not real. The developers said "hey, let's tie this job's lore to Ishgard and we'll make this dude the very first one and throw in some stuff about the Holy See. Sounds good? Sounds good."

That in mind, they could (with new jobs) say "hey, let's not tie this new job's lore to Ala Mhigo. We'll make this dude in Gridania and he's the first guy to think of it or something. Sounds good? Sounds good."

Final point, if the devs wanted to say "hey turns out there is this one super extra speshul group of duskwights that keep X forbidden bad juju magic alive and they don't like to tell ppl about it, but you're the warrior of light, so they'll teach you" They can! Because they write the rules, and as long as it's internally consistent, that's all that matters.

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Originally Posted by Chalbee

~snip~

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True. However, they'd also lose an additional selling point to an expansion as well as bring content away from said expansion.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

True. However, they'd also lose an additional selling point to an expansion as well as bring content away from said expansion.

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How would they lose a selling point? They could still make owning the expansion required to unlock the job (like you have to have HW to play as Au Ra). MSQ, new dungeons, new raids, and new Primals would still be locked behind the expansion. This is what I meant earlier when I said it's not a zero-sum argument. It's not like a few concessions amount to scrapping story-based gameplay all together. It's not that HW had gating that's a problem, it's that HW had so much gated.

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Originally Posted by Chalbee

It's not that HW had gating that's a problem, it's that HW had so much gated.

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For every gate in HW, there is at least one gate in ARR. Changing class? Gated behind level 10 class quest. Leves in your hometown? Gated. Leves elsewhere? Gated. Travel to and from La Noscea? Gated. Mounts? Chocobo? Gated. Chocobo joining you in combat? Gated. 4? Of the 12 leveling dungeons in ARR were side quests, and thus only gated by character level. The other 8 were gated by MSQ as well as level. ALL of the level 50 dungeons are gated by character level, if not also by MSQ. PVP? Gated by character level. Getting a Job? GATED. Retainers? Gated.

Character level is a form of Gate. Even if you have it unlocked from another job, you are NOT getting into Wanderer's Palace with a level 45. For some reason though, it is the least referenced form of Gate in this entire thread, with the simple assumption that you are going to meet it. It is just as fair to assume people are going to make the MSQ Gates as it is to assume people are going to meet the class/job level Gates.

Ignoring that form of Gating, as well as assuming that one Gate is already passed, has led people to the erroneous conclusion that HW is more Gated than ARR. There were a lot more Gates in ARR.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

For every gate in HW, there is at least one gate in ARR. Changing class? Gated behind level 10 class quest. Leves in your hometown? .

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But where the zones gated after you reached level 15 no , did u have another zone gate once you hit level 35 nope you didnt , so to say that things are gated the same is just not true. What I meant by free roam is that you can go beyond any zone that your story quest was in and in arr you could.

In hw you can not , so even if you are level 15 in arr you can still go to mor dona, you can even piggy back off of friends if you chose to and grind higher level fats thats well above your level. So of course there is progression, to do certain things but to block an area off and to meet a level cap are two totally different things. So no arr is not the same as hw in this sense, because you cant leave your zone unless you are done with that part in msq that wasnt the case in arr. Like if you are level 45 you can still go do fates in a zone thats level 45 because its open, even if you are on your level 30 quest in msq.

If your gatherers are higher level than your battle class you can go anywhere in the zone and gather what you need. If you are level 55 in hw you will have to settle for whatever fate that is in the area unless you complete the msq ,these are two totally different things and lets not pretend like they are not arr is no where even close to being gated like hw is. In arr you could level every job to fifthy do all the optional dungeons, do any fate in arr content, do any hunt in arr zones, get any spoil nood that you want thats below level 50. You have access to any vender that has gear under 50 , when you get to hw the only way to do any of this is the msq and that is totally different than it was in arr

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

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Yes, ARR has a lot of gating, possibly even more (in terms of quantity). However, the jump from ARR to HW is jarring because the requirement to finish the ARR MSQ in it's entirety is a lot. Then, once you get into HW, there are still areas you just aren't allowed into without MSQ progression (something that ARR doesn't have). While it makes sense wrt the lore, my issue is that they wrote the lore like that to begin with.

Level gates aren't the same, because you can meet them in a variety of ways: Leves, FATES, side quests, main quests, dungeons, hunt log, challenge log... The HW gates are pretty much just MSQ, inflexible and absolute. Lvl 60 gatherer? Well, you can't get to that node because you haven't done the MSQ. Hell, they don't even let you fly in a zone without making you do the MSQ for aether currents. You can find all of the map ones you want, but if you haven't finished the MSQ in that area, no flying for you.

Regardless, though, it doesn't really matter does it? At the end of the day SE will do what SE will do. Many people will be just fine with them forcing the MSQ down our throats, others like myself will be irritated but most likely carry on...

As it's been probably said, but bears repeating: FFXIV is a story based MMO. Everything of any worth is gated behind it. If it chafes that much, maybe this game isn't for you?