Request: Ability to re-assign class levels after 1.20

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

well i dont know their system, but in general in most games, its pretty easy to do, i would just allow you to switch two job levels from DoM. Also they dont need to build a UI for this, in theory its a one time thing, they could just add an npc script to change your levels around.

---

I could explain how hard that is to do correctly, but let's just let that lie there. Assume that it's harder than you think to do while preventing abuse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Answa

Am I the only one that read the notes that said that we can use 10 skills/abilities from other classes? Yes? Ok.

---

apparently so

the OP is a subpar crappy side-healer, he can continue to be a subpar crappy side-healer after 1.20 by putting cure on his thm.

you don't get a free pass from being a crappy side-healer to be a main healer

Just relevel up again with the class. They'll play totally different than what you've played before either way.

Love it when people who develop flash games come in to school others about MMO development. Classic.

So I guess there are three consistent responses in this thread. I'll try to address them again here.

1) "You were a crappy healer before for not having 50CNJ."
I ranked THM prior to 1.18, and my main is ARC. (If you can make an argument for why healing THM needed 50CNJ in 1.17, feel free to do so.) When 1.18 came out and THM was relegated to RDM status (i.e. secondary healer), I accepted that, just as I accepted ARC's nerfs in 1.19. I ranked up THM in the first place because it happened to be the best healer, not because I wanted to main heal. I'm fine with it not being mainheal, but I still would like to keep a healing job.

2) "Just level up another class instead."
As I said before, if you believe that "Just rank up a different class for the same role" is a valid response, why not just do a character wipe? Isn't the point of not doing a wipe to prevent the reduplication of effort that players have already spent?

3) "You should have expected big changes."
I'm fine with the big changes; nowhere in this thread have you seen me ask that THM maintain its role. But nowhere in the scope of "big changes" is it implied that they cannot allow plays to reassign levels based on the new roles that they assign to classes.

I'm really surprised at the amount of vitriol this suggestion has generated. What is the downside of allowing players to reassign levels when major class roles are completely reworked? Is it that players will be able to reassign the time they have already invested to the new roles SE has created? Whom does this hurt?

You're acting like I'm asking for a perpetually available reassignment ability. Giving the players an option to reassign levels when they completely change roles around is completely fair and reasonable. If they radically changed crafting so that WVR and LTW no longer made any finished gear (which was all made by ARM), I would be saying the same thing.

I do admit, I'm not an MMO developer. I specialize in code for securing data for financial markets. I have tried making games with friends, with interest always panning out. I can only tell you this: it's not flipping a switch, it's work to prevent such a feature from becoming abused.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GreyT

I do admit, I'm not an MMO developer. I specialize in code for securing data for financial markets. I have tried making games with friends, with interest always panning out. I can only tell you this: it's not flipping a switch, it's work to prevent such a feature from becoming abused.

---

Oh, that was not directed at you, and you're correct.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

problem is this game costs money, and they said many times that you would not lose your progress, in all honesty what has happened to thm is almost exactly as if they DID reassign his levels, but to a new class with no other option. really man look at the skill list, there is only 2/15 skills from thm there. Even if he should have known that thm would change, i dont think anyone saw this coming, they dont even got scourge anymore. Combine that with the changes to the armory /cross class abilities, there really isnt much of his investment left.

Its honestly a pretty simple solution, yeah they are going to make drastic changes, if people feel that has changed thier charachters too much, let them switch their charachters, i really dont see who is getting hurt here. Whats the worst that can happen? hes a bad con? that could happen regardless.

---

The problem is that it's a slippery slope. If the dev team bends over backwards for every person that bitches about every little change, they are going to be compensating for everything to everyone. We all have things that we dislike with each patch, that does not mean that we are entitled to compensation for the inconveniences that they may cause us.

I don't like that I lost my AoE toggle on cures. I don't like some of the changes coming next patch. I didn't like some of the changes that came with last patch. But that's MY problem, not SE's problem. Everything in this game is subject to change. We've all known that for nearly a year, now. We are not entitled to anything as a result of said changes. There is a reason that this game has been made free for the entirety of these sweeping changes.

The fact that we paid money for a disk has been made irrelevant by the very fact that the game is being overhauled. The product is no longer what you were promised in your manual, or on the back of the box, and we voted for that last Winter. You bought into an MMO. MMOs change. Every patch could be the patch that nerfs your class/job, that is just the nature of MMOs. Progress could never be made in an MMO (especially one as broken as XIV) without such changes.

tl;dr - This is not the last of the changes, if SE compensates for this then they will be held to compensate for every other change that happens by the playerbase (if you browse these forums for more than a day you know that they will). If you've played any MMO ever you should be used to the idea that class changes often entail nerfs, and we've known for almost a year that we could log in tomorrow to a completely different game. SE warned you, and they owe you no compensation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

So I guess there are three consistent responses in this thread. I'll try to address them again here.

1) "You were a crappy healer before for not having 50CNJ."
I ranked THM prior to 1.18, and my main is ARC. (If you can make an argument for why healing THM needed 50CNJ in 1.17, feel free to do so.) When 1.18 came out and THM was relegated to RDM status (i.e. secondary healer), I accepted that, just as I accepted ARC's nerfs in 1.19. I ranked up THM in the first place because it happened to be the best healer, not because I wanted to main heal. I'm fine with it not being mainheal, but I still would like to keep a healing job.

2) "Just level up another class instead."
As I said before, if you believe that "Just rank up a different class for the same role" is a valid response, why not just do a character wipe? Isn't the point of not doing a wipe to prevent the reduplication of effort that players have already spent?

3) "You should have expected big changes."
I'm fine with the big changes; nowhere in this thread have you seen me ask that THM maintain its role. But nowhere in the scope of "big changes" is it implied that they cannot allow plays to reassign levels based on the new roles that they assign to classes.

I'm really surprised at the amount of vitriol this suggestion has generated. What is the downside of allowing players to reassign levels when major class roles are completely reworked? Is it that players will be able to reassign the time they have already invested to the new roles SE has created? Whom does this hurt?

You're acting like I'm asking for a perpetually available reassignment ability. Giving the players an option to reassign levels when they completely change roles around is completely fair and reasonable. If they radically changed crafting so that WVR and LTW no longer made any finished gear (which was all made by ARM), I would be saying the same thing.

---

It's very simple. THM was never a healer. It had the capability to heal and happened to be better at it due to it's cone shaped AOE. CON was always destined to heal. That was blatantly obvious many months ago when CON was given curaga and 3 different types of raises.

If you continued to level THM expecting it to become a WHM or viable healer class later in the game, the joke is on you and you have to *slowly descending Wayfarers* Deal with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

It's very simple. THM was never a healer. It had the capability to heal and happened to be better at it due to it's cone shaped AOE.

---

THM has been the superior healer for the majority of this game's existence. Both mages were designed as healers, and it's silly to pretend otherwise.

Quote:

---

CON was always destined to heal. That was blatantly obvious many months ago when CON was given curaga and 3 different types of raises.

---

Um, "three months ago" was 10 months after the game was released? That doesn't sound like "always" to me.

And OP, you where wondering where all the resentment for this post is coming from?

-Too much potential for abuse
-People not having done the class (paid their dues) having a free ride

The last isn't really a logical reason, but it's how most people feel. If you didn't want people throwing their emotions in, please post in the Suggestions forums with less emotion. You set the tone for a discussion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

I'm really surprised at the amount of vitriol this suggestion has generated.

---

Most people don't like it when someone complains about a "problem" that is generally considered to not be a big deal. You're making a mountain out of a molehill, so to speak.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

What is the downside of allowing players to reassign levels when major class roles are completely reworked?

---

Implementing this feature takes away time and resources away from tackling other, more important issues. The "benefit" that a minority of players would gain from this feature is miniscule compared to the effort it would take.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

Whom does this hurt?

---

This hurts the timetable for implementing actual reforms that make the game better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

You're acting like I'm asking for a perpetually available reassignment ability.

---

I think that most, if not all the responders in this thread know that you only wanted a one-time deal. We understand what you are saying. Don't try to dismiss our arguments because you think that we don't understand what you are asking for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

If they radically changed crafting so that WVR and LTW no longer made any finished gear (which was all made by ARM), I would be saying the same thing.

---

That's because changing WVR and LTW like that makes no logical sense and is not in line with the future aims and goals of the class system.

Changing THM and CNJ in the ways they have laid out DOES make logical sense and IS in line with the future aims and goals of the class system.

probably a good idea to have both THM and CNJ leveled up in the long run, considering the flexibility of the class system. short term frustration but it shouldn't matter once you get CNJ up to 50 : )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rentahamster

snip

---

Agree with all of your points.

I do think you should add that bending to a request like this sends a dangerous message - that being: "If you don't like the changes that we are making, we will compensate you!".

The dev team should not be held to allocate resources to giving special treatment to people who aren't happy with their changes. MMOs are games that are constantly evolving, and players are going to love and hate every change that comes with that. The Devs do not have to answer for said changes, and they certainly do not have to compensate the players for them. I feel like SE has been so generous with responding to player feedback, and implementing ideas as a result of said feedback into the game that the players here feel that they're entitled to service from the developers that no company would ever even consider. The reason no company would seriously consider such a request is that if they bend to one request like this, they will receive a flood of requests from people who feel like they've been cheated by any little thing from every update. It's a slippery slope that I would rather the devs not go down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rentahamster

I think that most, if not all the responders in this thread know that you only wanted a one-time deal. We understand what you are saying. Don't try to dismiss our arguments because you think that we don't understand what you are asking for.

---

Then why are people complaining about "potential for abuse"? That doesn't make sense in the context of a one-time event.

Quote:

---

That's because changing WVR and LTW like that makes no logical sense and is not in line with the future aims and goals of the class system.

Changing THM and CNJ in the ways they have laid out DOES make logical sense and IS in line with the future aims and goals of the class system.

---

That's a completely arbitrary statement. Such a change would increase class uniqueness (a stated goal) and makes logical sense (Armorer makes all types of armor).

But to speak to my point: if such an "illogical" change were implemented, would players then be justified in asking for level reassignment?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tsuga

I do think you should add that bending to a request like this sends a dangerous message - that being: "If you don't like the changes that we are making, we will compensate you!".

---

It amazes me that you consider this a problem to be avoided.

If they compensate players every time they completely change the roles of classes in the game, I think that would be a good thing.

no thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

Then why are people complaining about "potential for abuse"? That doesn't make sense in the context of a one-time event.

---

A one-time even can still be abused. There are a lot of unforeseen consequences to anything that involves something as basic as a mass reallocation of player levels, even if it seems simple and inconsequential to you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

That's a completely arbitrary statement. Such a change would increase class uniqueness (a stated goal) and makes logical sense (Armorer makes all types of armor).

---

It's not arbitrary.

Their stated goals is to increase the class uniqueness of the battle classes, not the crafting classes.

It does not make any logical sense at all. Weavers make gear made out of cloth that they weave and sew. Leatherworkers make gear out of leather that they tan and cure. Armorers make gear out of metal that they smelt and refine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

But to speak to my point: if such an "illogical" change were implemented, would players then be justified in asking for level reassignment?

---

First of all, they wouldn't do anything that stupid, nor do they plan to. Second of all, given the hypothetical case that they did do something as drastic as merging TAN and WVR into ARM, then some sort or reallocation would be necessary.

However, the THM changes as laid out so far are neither illogical, nor are they unfair. They follow the plan that was laid out months in advance. Therefore, you (in my opinion) are not justified in asking for a level reassignment since it would also be a big waste of time for very little benefit that would "fix" a non-existent problem.

You can get 50 in one or two days without trying hard. Stop whining.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Their stated goals is to increase the class uniqueness of the battle classes, not the crafting classes.

---

Do you have a quote to support this assertion?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GreyT

We keep on posting from a player standpoint on this subject. Let's instead think about the developers.

- Is it easy to program? Nope, too many specal cases to just bang out. While it would seem easy to to make some kind of point slide interface, there is a lot of potential for abuse.

- How many players are we aggravating with this? Not that many. At least in comparison to those who like or don't care.

- Do the have an alternative? Yes, many have already done it too. Level conj.

- does this have the potential to go wrong, and shut down the game to resolve? Yes

---

1st Logical post yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

It amazes me that you consider this a problem to be avoided.

If they compensate players every time they completely change the roles of classes in the game, I think that would be a good thing.

---

Compensating for things that are broken - good. The reason being that it is a development problem that inconveniences everybody, and was essentially a mistake on the development side.

Compensating because you don't like a change - bad. The reason being that there are things that EVERYONE dislikes about the game. If one person's dislike is compensated for, then EVERYONE's dislikes should be compensated for. The Dev team cannot possibly please every single person, so this is a completely unrealistic expectation. You are not entitled to compensation for this any more than I'm entitled to compensation for the change to CNJ mechanics that I loathed three months ago. Or the year of grinding that I went through now that grinding from 1 - 50 takes a week.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

Do you have a quote to support this assertion?

---

Um, everything that they've said so far?

They're obviously emphasizing class uniqueness by streamlining skills and giving many unique and class exclusive skills to battle classes. They are further emphasizing uniqueness with the introduction of the job system that makes those exclusive traits and abilities even more profound.

The crafting classes are already unique. Each one specializes in a different type of base material and end product. The future goals of crafting classes are to give them more stuff to do and to help them play their support role in the economy. They are being further differentiated from the battle and gathering classes, not from each other.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post439683

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tsuga

Compensating because you don't like a change - bad. The reason being that there are things that EVERYONE dislikes about the game.

---

There is a significant difference between "ARC is now a worse DD" (something that I accepted without complaint) and "ARC's role is no longer that of a DD, but that of a tank."

A complete revamping of a class's role is not in the same league as patch-to-patch pecking order changes.

Quote:

---

If one person's dislike is compensated for, then EVERYONE's dislikes should be compensated for. The Dev team cannot possibly please every single person, so this is a completely unrealistic expectation.

---

Under this logic, why would they ever make any changes at all?

If what you are saying is true, then since other people's dislikes have obviously been accommodated (e.g. classes are more unique), then all dislikes must be accommodated, right? Obviously, that's not even possible.

Spider-Dan, please just stop talking. It's not going to happen. The fact that you expect it to is depressing my outlook on the human race.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

THM has been the superior healer for the majority of this game's existence. Both mages were designed as healers, and it's silly to pretend otherwise.

---

Actually, it wasn't. The cone AoE gave it a advantage. Everything else in THM's arsenal was for DoT enfeebling spells and magical defensive tanking. CON had the exact same healing potential, but with a different and ill received AoE radius. There were a few abilities that would suggest MP conservation which could point to them being strong healers, but let's just forget that for now.

Technically, when looking at that standpoint and using your logic, both would potentially become a main healer. This will be in response to your next point.

Quote:

---

Um, "three months ago" was 10 months after the game was released? That doesn't sound like "always" to me.

---

Yet you still leveled THM after that change. In this specific case, it's really about common sense. When you see changes to one class going into a main healing role put two and two together and make a safe assumption that this is probably projected to be a main healer. Sorry you wasted very little mind power to achieve maxing your THM, but you should have saw this coming a while ago. Unless, you're on a three month delay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

When you see changes to one class going into a main healing role put two and two together and make a safe assumption that this is probably projected to be a main healer.

---

Is it logical to assume that the game would be changed so that there is only one healing class? In which FFs (or any other MMO ever) is this the case? Do buffs to WHM indicate that RDMs should prepare to lose cure spells?

I'm not objecting to CNJ being made the main healer. I don't know why you keep bringing up that point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

Is it logical to assume that the game would be changed so that there is only one healing class? In which FFs (or any other MMO ever) is this the case? Do buffs to WHM indicate that RDMs should prepare to lose cure spells?

I'm not objecting to CNJ being made the main healer. I don't know why you keep bringing up that point.

---

Then what is the problem? You want to be given a choice to change your class levels because you made a poor choice when the signs and the information dished out from the devs have been here for months? You know, THM can still use CON's healing spell. They just can't use their heavy cure spell. You don't know the effectiveness this cure spell will scale to.

You could be a fine back up healer. Not a main healer, of course, but if that is what you want then level the class. For the 500th time... it's not difficult to do this anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

Then what is the problem? You want to be given a choice to change your class levels because you made a poor choice when the signs and the information dished out from the devs have been here for months?

---

Which was, in turn, many months after I had already made the choice and ranked up THM. That doesn't do me much good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

Then what is the problem? You want to be given a choice to change your class levels because you made a poor choice when the signs and the information dished out from the devs have been here for months? You know, THM can still use CON's healing spell. They just can't use their heavy cure spell. You don't know the effectiveness this cure spell will scale to.

You could be a fine back up healer. Not a main healer, of course, but if that is what you want then level the class. For the 500th time... it's not difficult to do this anymore.

---

this ^

Cure will exist, Spider-Dan. It will continue to exist, as it always has, on Conjurer. At a very low level, too. All you have to do is equip it in the cross class designated actions spots.

So, wheres the logic in having the Devs to do anything else to help you heal? Unless you want to be a "better healer". If you don't, then, have fun being a mediocre healer, as you have always been. But if you do aspire to grow beyond mediocrity, then you have to work for it. Which, as you have pointed out, you don't want to do. You want a hand-out.

All of us with both mages level 50 had to work for it, and we had to do much more work than you would even have to dream to do to reach the same goal.

I could imagine with the significantly shorter training time how much more unprepared a mage would be for the upcoming challenges in Eorzea, and I would shudder at the thought of a mage being handed all those levels on a silver platter. It would be like throwing them to the wolves, allowing them more excuses to complain about how hard monsters are (as designed), and therefore demanding more hand-outs.

It is a slippery slope. (Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.)

OP: What's wrong with putting Conjurer's cross-class heals on your Thaumaturge's hotbar? You'll be a mediocre healer, but you've stated you're ok with that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alkoun

OP: What's wrong with putting Conjurer's cross-class heals on your Thaumaturge's hotbar? You'll be a mediocre healer, but you've stated you're ok with that.

---

All of THM's new MP conservation/regeneration abilities are contingent on casting attack magic (or getting hit, if you count Stygian Spikes). Combine that with the removal of Exaltation and it means that THM will not be able to maintain their MP any better than if I were healing on ARC.

It's the equivalent of using BLM/WHM because RDM was removed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

Under this logic, why would they ever make any changes at all?

If what you are saying is true, then since other people's dislikes have obviously been accommodated (e.g. classes are more unique), then all dislikes must be accommodated, right? Obviously, that's not even possible.

---

Apples and oranges.

Asking for handouts and special treatment as a result of class changes and rebalancing =/= requesting changes because of imbalances and flaws with the game design.

Again, you're asking SE to create a slippery slope for themselves, and I sure as hell hope that they are not stupid enough to oblige you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Airget

With how dynamic the changes to THM have been compared to other classes the devs should sincerly take the time to consider how some who may have only leveled that class may feel about it. There's a reason why there was an argument for a long time as to what class would be WHM and which would be BLM or why not RDM instead of BLM. When you consider everything Conjurer had the makings of both a WHM and a BLM because of their access to all elemental magic as well as access to curative and buffing spells. THM on the otherhand was more of a healer/enfeebler with DD magic.

When it was noted that CON would be WHM and THM would be BLM it was pretty clear that the changes would be pretty dynamic. Now that we've seen those changes I think it's fair to say that THM can't even be considered THM anymore, it's not what the original design of THM is. Other classes still retain their identity but THM was pretty much killed and then COnjurer created a twin brother of itself and shared it's abilities with it.

In that essence I honestly don't think it's unfair to request those who have leveled x mage job to switch to another because that's the role they wanted to play. I'm sure there are some Con only that wanted to be more BLM like but now they've lost a big list of them to THM. It would be a simple remedy just to have an NPC in each town, it could easily be a Conjurerer and THM NPC standing next to one another speaking of how their methods have changed and if their are any of their bretherens that feel cheated they are able to perform a ritual to swap knowledge of their arts from one class to another. Of course because of the stress this spell has on it's target it can only be performed once so choose wisely before confirming to this change. Then a warning message would pop up such as -You can only perform this request once, You may not be on Con/THM at the time of change and must equip an Arm from any other class, Once the change has taken place you will no longer have knowledge of the abilities you have learned from that level- Then after confirming the levels swap and everybody is happy.


But ya, perhaps some news will be mentioned as to how they will handle the extreme changes made, perhaps they'll just apologize to those who thought they would play x role but are now unable to but who knows lol.

---

Those are some good points. I'm not agreeing about a dude changing classes' level beause this would be a nonsense (just think about the effects of leveling up/down would have to your character)...but i do think they should think a bit about those players who have only one class leveled.

Also, people love using that first poll as excuse for every mess this dev team do, w/o thinking about how malicious it was...those who voted "no" might actually be the ones that thought a s#!t like this could happen...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Airget

When it was noted that CON would be WHM and THM would be BLM it was pretty clear that the changes would be pretty dynamic. Now that we've seen those changes I think it's fair to say that THM can't even be considered THM anymore, it's not what the original design of THM is.

---

The original design for THM was clear in the job description, (i.e. master of destruction, moreso than even the disciples of War). It just wasnt implemented as intended, (it was overpowered as healer & in survivability) and took a long time to be fully rebalanced, due to other, higher priority fixes. Guess what? It is now almost fully rebalanced to reflect that original job decription.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duuude007

The original design for THM was clear in the job description, (i.e. master of destruction, moreso than even the disciples of War). It just wasnt implemented as intended, (it was overpowered as healer & in survivability) and took a long time to be fully rebalanced, due to other, higher priority fixes. Guess what? It is now almost fully rebalanced to reflect that original job decription.

---

Yeah I don't really get how people thought that a class who's only healing abilities were a "regen" over straight up "cure" (a white mage ability...) was somehow going to be the main healer. It didn't have any of the abilities that are normally given to white mage, and the only reason the THM was a better healer was because of cone AoE vs. CNJ's donut AoE.

I guess I just don't see how people thought that SE intended for THM to be the main healer based on its spell pool. It didn't have the buffs, it didn't have the cures, and it didn't have the -na spells. All it had was cone AoE and Sacrifice - which was just an easily exploitable combo.

'S kinda why I don't buy it when people claim that they thought that THM would be main healer. You'd have to be blind to look at the two spell lists and say "well THM is CLEARLY the white mage here". A more reasonable explanation is that people leveled THM because its cone AoE and Sacrifice made it more desired in parties at the time, and now they feel burned because they spent all of that time leveling what the player base considered a better healer, over what actually was supposed to be the healing class.

I admit that as Gladiator early on, having THM ranked up was a huge advantage because of emulate. Then it was nerfed. Because it was overpowered. After that, I took a more balanced approach to what I leveled for support classes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duuude007

The original design for THM was clear in the job description, (i.e. master of destruction, moreso than even the disciples of War). It just wasnt implemented as intended, (it was overpowered as healer & in survivability) and took a long time to be fully rebalanced, due to other, higher priority fixes. Guess what? It is now almost fully rebalanced to reflect that original job decription.

---

Given that shortly after release, Sacrifice was specifically buffed to heal more on the initial cast, it would seem that the original vision for THM (as a healer) is what existed prior to 1.18.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tsuga

I guess I just don't see how people thought that SE intended for THM to be the main healer based on its spell pool. It didn't have the buffs, it didn't have the cures, and it didn't have the -na spells. All it had was cone AoE and Sacrifice - which was just an easily exploitable combo.

'S kinda why I don't buy it when people claim that they thought that THM would be main healer.

---

So then, when you saw CNJ's spell list of full elemental nuke lines (along with ancient magic nukes), you thought it was clear that CNJ absolutely would not be BLM?

It wasn't obvious either way. Both classes had aspects of different traditional FF jobs. CNJ could have been BLM just as easily as they were made WHM.

Just quit.