Upper tiers of an action (such as Fire II and Fire III) will be abolished.....

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Originally Posted by Enma

Why start whining when the patch isn't already out?

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^ best logic so far

If you guys remember FFII they kept the same spell scrolls and you levelled the spells up. They automatically changes every 3 (I think) levells. There's no reason to assume the spell graphic won't change the higher your class is.

I'm not too bothered about the visual aspect, but I do wonder why they feel the need to take away our ability to vary the amount of power/MP we put into our attacks.

So.. yeah that just seems daft, to me.

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Originally Posted by Buddhsie

If you guys remember FFII they kept the same spell scrolls and you levelled the spells up. They automatically changes every 3 (I think) levells. There's no reason to assume the spell graphic won't change the higher your class is.

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FF13's nukes scaled as well. If we're making a list, that is.

The only tactical advantage of tiered nukes, in my opinion, is the ability to control damage (in the case you don't want a full-out blast to reduce enmity or to test the waters of the enemy's resistance or absorption). However, that's what Soughspeak is for.

Tiers also let you spam the same element if they were on different timers, like in FFXI. However, with Ancient Magic, you should still be able to alternate between two spells of the same element just fine if that's what you wish.

I think Conjurers will be fine.

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Originally Posted by Isaveron

How about we wait for part 2 before we start making assumptions?

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How about they release all the info at once instead of causing drama like this?

I really hope spells animation change with potency

I wish they would go one step further and allow you to customise spell effects to your liking as you levelled e.g. so fire 2 becomes a) fireballl or b) a pillar of flames, c) spreading like a firework; with each havings its own trajectories.

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Originally Posted by Buddhsie

If you guys remember FFII they kept the same spell scrolls and you levelled the spells up. They automatically changes every 3 (I think) levells. There's no reason to assume the spell graphic won't change the higher your class is.

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Exactly...think of Fire at level 1 being a little spark and Fire at level 50 being the inferno you are looking for. I am for the abolishing of the tiers. Trims down the ability list. No more Bloodbath I and Bloodbath II its just freaking Bloodbath that gets better with every level achieved. I'm quite excited about this new update. Everyone needs to just relax and wait for it to come out. I'm sure SE wont disapoint, seems they got a lot riding on this game.

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Originally Posted by Enma

Why start whining when the patch isn't already out?

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Originally Posted by RemVye

^ best logic so far

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Its really not

The sooner the people voice their opinions and get conversations going the more stuff the development team know before its way under development. If you are building something and you are told near the end to change a key component that now will take a long time due to all of the overlay development you'd be a bit pissed, if only they told you before ey! before you started working on the wrong thing.

(It is kind of the shit hole we are in now, They built this game on a very unstable server setup and awful engine and no one said anything and now they've had to spend 2 years redoing all the mistakes, because they did not listen to anyone during alpha or beta and no one inside SE said anything... bamdumtish?)

This is why they release the info, if the good logic was wait until patch, then you could all shut the fuck up and wait for notes and information until patch as well but sadly a lot of you cant, you must know whats happening all the time! And some here like to influence what is going to happen, especially when a lot of people realise SE are heading the wrong direction and need to be informed sooner rather than later so they question themselves.

Otherwise its a case of

wait x month for patch
wait x month for next patch due to everyone who "waited" and is now complaining
wait x month for delayed patch due to previous patch having unforeseen consequences of change
wait x month for delayed patch due to delayed patch from previous unaware of patch
wait x month..

The cycle continues.

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Originally Posted by viion

Its really not

The sooner the people voice their opinions and get conversations going the more stuff the development team know before its way under development. If you are building something and you are told near the end to change a key component that now will take a long time due to all of the overlay development you'd be a bit pissed, if only they told you before ey! before you started working on the wrong thing.

[I](It is kind of the shit hole we are in now, They built this game on a very unstable server setup and awful engine and no one said anything and now they've had to spend 2 years redoing all the mistakes, because they did not listen to anyone during alpha or beta and no one inside SE said anything... bamdumtish?)[I]

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I understand perfectly your point but:

1) Discussing about something it's different from complaining about it.
2) SE knows exactly what will be implemented in the future, and from this point, all of us have a limited view of the reasons behind its choice.

It's useless say "Please SE keep Tier System as it is, don't change it!" just because they already said that it will be changed. Yoshi specified about what he "needs" feedbacks, this is a decision already taken. I'll wait the patch, watch how BS will transform and then I'll give my feedback. (Just to make me understand, it's not a debated them as Jump has been)

P.S.
Sorry for bad english.

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Originally Posted by viion

The sooner the people voice their opinions and get conversations going the more stuff the development team know before its way under development.

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I'm pretty sure that's the idea behind these forums in the first place. Development doesn't just happen on it's own whether it's all done in-house or otherwise. You need some kind of feedback in order to determine whether the implementation of said ideas is good or bad, or whether it just needs some tweaking. But they do also need people to actually get a feel for the system before they can really be sure if it is a good idea. Bringing potential issues up now, though, ensures that the developers can begin to make plans for alternatives should the system turn out to be a bust when it's implemented.

I'm all for the tiers being taken out. I don't think having too many abilities that are really only stronger versions fits into having a limited space to set them into. Even if they get rid of cost, there's only 30 slots to make use of. Whilst at lv50 there's still some room to put in a few different tiers of an ability (for those times where you're waiting on cool-down timers or don't want to use xMP/TierIII to simply finish a mob off when yMP/TierII will suffice) but if we assume that level caps will be broken and our final level is 99 the list of abilities will be huge. Unless they start adding more action bars, which could make the whole thing more cumbersome, you'd eventually have to sacrifice those lower tier abilities for the things that actually matter. Of course, that's really looking at offensive abilities.

The problem that I think really needs to be brought up is with supporting spells, especially the Cure line spells. It's going to be really annoying using (arbitrary numbers here) 100MP to cure 300 points of damage, when that same 100MP can also cure 1000 damage. It needs to scale the actual used MP based on what damage was healed and not what it could have healed. You could probably say the same for nukes - whilst I did 1000 damage for 100MP, I only actually used 500 of that damage to kill the mob. I don't think it's as bad of a situation though, because in the end the mob died; you can recover now. It's harder to recover if you're not putting the full potential of a spell to use during combat (1000 damage where 1000 damage was actually done is the full potential so there's no problem).

Perhaps there is already a system in place and we can 'wait and see', but making sure SE knows of the issue (assuming they haven't thought about it; they are human) is important.

I'm assuming that as you level up it will probably upgrade the look of your spell. Say, at L1 the ability Fire looks like it currently does, but at L50 it's a big giant blast of flame.

I don't agree with this proposed change. It is the progression of spells and their increasingly spectacular effects which are unique to Final Fantasy games. If Yoshi is indeed trying to create a Final Fantasy-esque feel to the game like adding jobs with traditional Final Fantasy names and abilities then this is an inappropriate move.

I feel very strongly this is the wrong move. I've been a fan of the series a long time and I cannot think of many games which did not have this progression. I truly feel this is a break from something which has been part of the series since its inception.

I said that so that I could add the following disclaimer. I have been surprised by many of the changes which have been made to the game which originally upset me.

So, I only have the choice of nuking or not nuking now?

The benefit of having lower tier nukes is the fact they have a lower MP cost, lower damage values, and low enmity grabbing power.

Do I want to have to wait for the bar to drop from red before I can do anything, or do I want to be able to pace my spells accordingly?

Bad idea, REAL bad idea.

I think this change makes it easier for players to obtain good cross-class skills at low level.

Everyone can learn skills like Fire, Cure, Second Wind, Ferocity, Defender at a level less than 10. When they switch to a rank 50 class, all of those abilities would scale and be just as effective as the higher tier versions now.

Every animation SE makes costs them money, They're infamous for not scrapping things they've sunk cash into. (just look at the game itself).

They're not gonna let the sparklies go to waste, don't worry.

Also, this thread is stupid, you're basing your worry purely on the fact they didn't mention the specifics. I may as well worry they'll make everyone's player characters into spriggans, because they didn't say they wouldn't.

Yeah, i'm sure SE is going to make the spell and weapon effects increase based on the level of the skill just like the spell and weapon effects changed with the tier of the ability. They arent gonna let those animations go to waste. You will just likely see a jump in the spell effect after you gain a level or something.

Maybe we will even see more spell effects than before...one can hope atleast.

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Originally Posted by Xello

Every animation SE makes costs them money, They're infamous for not scrapping things they've sunk cash into. (just look at the game itself).

They're not gonna let the sparklies go to waste, don't worry.

Also, this thread is stupid, you're basing your worry purely on the fact they didn't mention the specifics. I may as well worry they'll make everyone's player characters into spriggans, because they didn't say they wouldn't.

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What sparkles? Mostly every ability/weaponskill animation we have currently is horrible. Flare looks worse then XIs Fire I for Odin's sake.

Please keep the tiered magic for elemental spells and cures. When i have low mp and still want to do a little bit of damage when the mob is at 1% health or only want to heal someone for a little bit, that would be nice. maybe make the higher tier spells class specific and only let the lower tier go cross-class.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

Certainly have to disagree there. Just some quick examples: Final Fantasy Tactics Advance and A2 you could use a Summoner with a Red Mage's Doublecast and wipe the floor with back to back summons. In FFT I think it was a Black Mage with mathematics could hit any enemy on the screen with their strongest magic spells costing 0MP. FFX Lulu was the only one to be able to effectively dish out damage to Flans and some other monster types that you'd run into frequently.

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Calculators could do CT5 Flare, but why would they when Holy was so much better than Flare? >_>

I have enjoyed and been fully supportive of all of the changes thus far and I am eagerly awaiting the ones still to come. However, this is the first thing that has had me concerned.

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

Love these "I'm pissed before I even see it" threads.

Why not play the wait and see game, you might be pleasantly surprized.

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I understand there is a lot about it we don't know yet, and you never know it might turn out to be the best thing to happen to the game yet. However, I don't think it is bad to express a little concern over where this is headed. For me it seems to be taking a step away from the traditional FF tier system and the strategy that comes with it (for magic at least. As far as other abilities I think its a good idea. e.g. Why have a Skewer I and Skewer II?).

my question is why did he relate it to a spell (Fire III) that isnt even in the game?????

For what it's worth this isn't actually the first FF to do away with tiered spells. FF13 had everything scale with you, with the -ras and -gas functioning differently from the base spell, and it worked out pretty well there.

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Originally Posted by Icecylee

For what it's worth this isn't actually the first FF to do away with tiered spells. FF13 had everything scale with you, with the -ras and -gas functioning differently from the base spell, and it worked out pretty well there.

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Ah, but FF13 didn't have MP. It didn't matter that spells didn't have tiers.

Bringing that up because it'll come up, you can bet on that.

The biggest arguments I've seen involve "I have no/little MP but I want to do damage" and "I want to do damage and not get too much enmity".

Enmity, we have no idea how these new abilities are going to affect that. If spells generate the same amount regardless of damage dealt, then there's really no issue. If it does then there'll be a scale for that, that is hopefully easily adjustable in the event that "it doesn't work quite as intended". Plus, you never know. These new class traits might just help towards that kind of thing anyway. CNJ/WHM may get 'Tranquil Heart' like traits to cut down enmity gain on healing. Either way, being mindful of your enmity and not continuously throwing out low tier cures.

This system also lends itself to more strategic game play. If (and I'm hoping this is so) PLD gains abilities to look after themselves and their party members (own healing abilities and Cover etc) means you can let your PLD get his target's attention and you go from there. It also makes using other tanks more and more risky. Sure, your MRD/WAR can tank but he will need help from his healers to do so, thus having an impact on enmity control and strategy. Being able to just hand out cures without thinking much doesn't sound fun. Maybe this system will promote thinking first.

As for not having enough MP, that comes down to play style. I prefer to not have my MP run low, and if it does I focus on trying to recover it or use it more efficiently. Being an XI career RDM taught be to savour each MP I had. If I'm in a healing role, I'm not going to be doing any nuking. The party depends on me having MP to heal them, so that's what I use my MP for. It's called team dynamics. And the same principle applies in XIV. Either use MP more effectively, or carry a lot of ethers around if you insist on extra duty activities.

Also, as I said before, MP used (and in turn, enmity gained) should reflect the damage done/healed. That'll improve this system a lot.

Tier Magic has always been a Final Fantasy trademark for me along with the Chocobo and Airships. To simple take it out would mean taking a bit more of Final Fantasy out regardless to if they have animation change or not depending on level. I play FFXIV because of certain elements that make it great and to not be able to cast Blizzard I II III IV or Cure I II III IV means I may as well play any old fantasy based game.

Listen it's not that I wanna shoot down whats not even up yet, but to do this crushes my hopes for the mage class as I played Black mage in XI. I like choosing to cast a MP sucking powerhouse IV when I want to or a simple II to get the job done with the simplicity or picking a tier.

In the end it's up to SE please don't take the Final Fantasy out of Final Fantasy

Making this game WoW doesn't bother you but this does?
Hah.

Yeah, I'm going to want to talk about this again. I think this is a terrible, pointless change. I honestly see no reason for it. What if I want/need to cast a lower level cure to heal a smaller amount of damage? I enjoyed having a variety of cure spells. Sure, cura might be magnificent, but I personally prefer my spells to be tiered. I am definitely not in support of this. I just don't understand why you would even bother messing with it in the first place. This adds nothing, and takes away a lot.

I am more worried about not being able to move while casting, than having only a few spells. I can DD now, but not being able to move is going to suck hard. I still don't see how Yoshi-P's comment on the "Dying before you see the numbers on you" related to the topic at all, but yeah.

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Originally Posted by Stimpack

This adds nothing, and takes away a lot.

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Indeed. This takes away a lot of useless fluff with no other purpose but to exist.

The point is not to take away something for no reason, but to not add something for no reason. If it has no added gameplay value, it has to go. The current system works as well as the previous one, so the removed actions added nothing of value.

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Originally Posted by Stimpack

Yeah, I'm going to want to talk about this again. I think this is a terrible, pointless change. I honestly see no reason for it. What if I want/need to cast a lower level cure to heal a smaller amount of damage? I enjoyed having a variety of cure spells. Sure, cura might be magnificent, but I personally prefer my spells to be tiered. I am definitely not in support of this. I just don't understand why you would even bother messing with it in the first place. This adds nothing, and takes away a lot.

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I only ever used Cure II and III at 50 which is exactly what Cure and Cura are currently (although I think they heal a slight bit more than their old counterparts). They also don't seem to generate nearly as much hate as they used to. Nukes are still tiered, although the CNJ ones are AOE in their higher tier unless you combo.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Indeed. This takes away a lot of useless fluff with no other purpose but to exist.

The point is not to take away something for no reason, but to not add something for no reason. If it has no added gameplay value, it has to go. The current system works as well as the previous one, so the removed actions added nothing of value.

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This is pretty much the gist of it. I had tons of stuff on CNJ before but i only ever used like what, 1/4, 1/5 of it? After playing around with the new system for a while I realized I actually do use every single one of my abilities regularly.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Indeed. This takes away a lot of useless fluff with no other purpose but to exist.

The point is not to take away something for no reason, but to not add something for no reason. If it has no added gameplay value, it has to go. The current system works as well as the previous one, so the removed actions added nothing of value.

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Ugh, I just typed out a very lengthy response and I accidentally hit "reply to thread" which deleted it. My point is that it is not merely "fluff" there's a strategy to having tiered spells. Even if there are spells that you don't use, just don't put them on your bar. There's no reason to remove the options entirely.


I assume, and I can't be the only one, that they're doing this to streamline gameplay for console users. You might enjoy it, but I'm not a big fan of having things dumbed-down for me.

(edit) I'd also like to say that I do not agree with the fact that class-spells/skill are required to be put on an action bar. I don't see the point in that, either.

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Originally Posted by V0lg

Tier Magic has always been a Final Fantasy trademark

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I would also like to point this out!

We still have Fire/Fira/Firaga, etc, dealing different amounts of damage, so there are still tiers, they are just usable as you level up instead of dumping the low tiers. In fact this system is more FF tradition since it doesn't give us spells with names like Curaga II, Fire III, etc.

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Originally Posted by Stimpack

My point is that it is not merely "fluff" there's a strategy to having tiered spells.

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No strategy elements were lost due to this change, and no strategy elements would have been lost were the same done to every FF in existence. That is more telling than whatever your point might be. In practice fluff is fluff and now it is where it belongs, in the failed game design-bin of theory that didn't meet practice-land.

Options just for the sake of having options regardless of whether there is any substance to them are meaningless options and overcomplicate as well as suffocate the game for no proper reasons whatsoever. Just because you don't have to put them in your action bar does not justify their existence. When players have to dig through piles of 'cool in concept, useless in practice' actions to find the meaningful ones they become more of a hindrance than just a useless addition that has no reason to be there.

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I assume, and I can't be the only one, that they're doing this to streamline gameplay for console users. You might enjoy it, but I'm not a big fan of having things dumbed-down for me.

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Streamlining useless, meaningless, overcomplicated-for-no-reason-but-to-be-overcomplicated features removes nothing but the aforementioned traits from the game. Most games in existence, regardless of genre or platform know better than to add shit to the game that does nothing but annoy at best. If they don't contribute to gameplay, they have no reason to be there. Nothing of value has been lost, and proper game design has won over the shackles of "FF staples" once again.

Writing this almost brought a tear to my eye. I love you Yoshida. Not in a gay way, but in a manly Roegadyn way.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

No strategy elements were lost due to this change, and no strategy elements would have been lost were the same done to every FF in existence. That is more telling than whatever your point might be. In practice fluff is fluff and now it is where it belongs, in the failed game design-bin of theory that didn't meet practice-land.

Options just for the sake of having options regardless of whether there is any substance to them are meaningless options and overcomplicate as well as suffocate the game for no proper reasons whatsoever. Just because you don't have to put them in your action bar does not justify their existence. When players have to dig through piles of 'cool in concept, useless in practice' actions to find the meaningful ones they become more of a hindrance than just a useless addition that has no reason to be there.



Streamlining useless, meaningless, overcomplicated-for-no-reason-but-to-be-overcomplicated features removes nothing but the aforementioned traits from the game. Most games in existence, regardless of genre or platform know better than to add shit to the game that does nothing but annoy at best. If they don't contribute to gameplay, they have no reason to be there. Nothing of value has been lost, and proper game design has won over the shackles of "FF staples" once again.

Writing this almost brought a tear to my eye. I love you Yoshida. Not in a gay way, but in a manly Roegadyn way.

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While you may have found them to be useless, I've always found a place for all of my tiered cure spells. I never found FFXI's spell mechanics to be complicated. It seems a tried and true system that I, for one, enjoyed. I can't quite grasp the concept of "Well, it's useless to me so it shouldn't exist.", I think that's an opinion and that options should be given. I don't know how tiered spells have somehow hindered your gaming experience, but if you could provide some detail into that I would appreciate it.

At the moment, you're just not convincing me. Your argument as to why tiered spells should not exist boils down to over-complication and usefulness. Complexity is more a matter of opinion. I might struggle greatly with something that you can do with relative ease. As for usefulness, I may favor a tiered spell that you'd rarely ever bother with.

My argument is that what I'm asking does not interfere with what you're asking. For instance, you could just as easily continue using Cure III in place of the scaled cure we know now. You could disregard Cure, and Cure II completely and I don't quite see how it would complicate life for you.

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While you may have found them to be useless

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It's not an opinion. You can think and do whatever you want, in reality there is no strategy in any of it. In reality there are good choices and bad choices. Only good choices must prevail- bad choices have no function but to overcomplicate unnecessarily.

Proper game design isn't dictated by someone's subjective made-up reality where imaginary strategic choices exist or ancient principles based on poor design choices from the past being put on a pedestal.

Spoiler: game design has come a long way since the 90's. What was acceptable back then is irreversibly flawed today.

Complexity is not a matter of opinion. If it adds nothing, it is useless. If it hinders the player, or confuses him at the same time, it is bad for the game. Whether there is real strategy or whether it is merely the mindset of "I will keep using all of my actions even though 3/4th of them make no difference in gameplay in 99% of the cases" is not a matter off opinion. It either has an impact or it doesn't, regardless of what the person in question thinks of it.

Saying whether something is useless or not is entirely subjective. Our conversation alone is proof of that. I don't quite understand why you wish to remain ignorant of the fact that lower tiered spells do serve a purpose. Topping off an ally's HP with a basic Cure will cease to exist with this scaling system. A tiered system is anything but complicated. If anything, it beckons users to learn their class and properly strategize.

I'm sorry, but I do not believe that your way is somehow superior. Can you honestly sit there and say that people are confused by the tier system? I'm surprised FFXI even had a player-base, considering the apparently arduous learning curve.

I've pointed out that the tier system does add something to the game. Again, I say that your argument is based upon usefulness and complexity, and I've stood to reason against both. The tier system is not complicated, and it is useful.

From what you've said thus far, it stands to reason that we completely eliminate all spells in favor of one. Why not just roll up all of the status ailments, hp/mp recovery, damage mitigation, and elemental damage into one? It's quite practical, really. *I do hope that you've picked up on the sarcasm*

I'd also just like to say that I'm rather surprised by the community response here. In FFXI, even at the max level, every WHM I knew used each cure spell in their arsenal. It seems to me that we're going to end up using a bastardized version where the player is no longer forced to choose which spell to use in what situation (which, and I'm sorry to say, is strategy) and instead is given a standard cure button with which to smash.

It also occurs to me that you might be viewing all of this in terms of end-game. Often times I had to run a lower-leveled friend through a dungeon, or what-have-you, and it was advantageous to use a basic Cure rather than something like a Cure III.

Apparently I'm the odd man out with this mentality. Usher in the new-age, if you will, and explain to me how much better it is. Explain how you're helping me by making my life easier while I, in my old age, play with sticks in the dirt. I'll just sit here shaking my head, and remembering how things used to be.

Never used anything below Cure III in FF11 except to wake up sleeping people and I never used Cure IV because that crap was too much hate and inefficient, so only III and V got any use from me. You pretty much get this effect when you have Cure and Cura in FF14. Sleeping people here can be woke up with Cure but it costs the normal amount of MP which IMO is much better balanced and gives more weight to the upcoming Esuna and Alchemist potions that cure Sleep. Using a lower tier Cure to top off someone's HP is not needed at all when they can put their weapon away and recover that HP in like 5 seconds.

Play around with your Conjurer some more and open your mind to the new system and try adapting to it instead of trying to fit it into an old game's mechanics. I'm finding this game a lot more fun and interesting to play healer compared to years of FF11, and one member of my LS actually tried out CNJ and took it to 50 because he ended up enjoying it so much when he was never a healer in a MMO before. The strategy for healing in this game is not "use the least amount of MP possible" but "use your crazy potent MP abilities intelligently to keep yourself going". The strategy is shifted elsewhere, but it is still there. As the class levels up and gets more complex you will see.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

a low level BLM to cast the same spell effects as max level BLM. period.

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Yes, because Thunder, Thundara and Thundaga all look visually the same, and not like a 3 tiered spell, and when the 4th tier spell arrives from the BLM spell list, it won't be an impressive BURST of lightning. inb4 Thundaja.

/sarcasm off

/thread

I still don't quite see the point in removing the tiers, though. You may have only gotten use out of III/V, but I still say that there were situations in which every cure could be utilized. If the point of taking them out was to reduce clutter, then I think that's an absolutely ridiculous claim.

All my CNJ has really had to do so far is nuke. I'm sure that's not how the entire experience will go, but hopefully they adjust things. Personally, I don't care for the "everyone can heal" approach. I think that changes things so that CNJs aren't technically full-time healers. I digress, I promise you that I am trying to keep an open mind, but no one has been able to give me a valid reason as to why tier spells were removed so far. That's what I'm waiting for.

Don't get me wrong. I'm still going to play, and I know that I will get used to the new system, but I really want to argue against this change.