Patch 3.4 - Soul Surrender

Sounds like both see the other as the parasite that is burning out existence.while hydelyn didn't use the exact words, it seems a similar reasoning for the banishment of Zodiark.

One fear is that the continuing cycle will cause Zodiark's revival and an end to existence as we know it. Could the other be that stopping the cyclical nature of destiny is what causes the end of existence? That without Zodiark's supposed revival there is no one to take the seat of "the mothercrystal" after Hydelyn fades totally?

/speculation

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Originally Posted by myahele

"Soul Surrender" is quite an interesting title since it can be interpreted in that plenty of people have "surrendered" their souls: Dayun (Mide's BF) sucked into Alaxanders core, Ixal's devotion to Garuda,Minfilia giving herself up to Hydaelyn. Wonder if the WoD gave up something similar.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

The name of the patch is ominous as well. Soul Surrender...

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I'm so excited about this new major patch! I was honestly beginning to fear we might not see it until October. As for the title, it gave me a bad feeling from the moment I first saw it. If you have a look at the Japanese title, or subtitle depending on how you see it, it's 魂を継ぐ者, which translates to something like Soul Inheritors (or Successors), which is incidently how the Scions are referred to, ie Louisoix's successors. The bad feeling didn't go away from seeing that one, in fact it intensified, but now I'm not sure what to make of it. Is it referring to an event from the past, present or future?

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Do you really want to pressure yourself to clear the Coil just for a few words changed in the script?

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Given that a lot of skilled players can help those who have more difficulty clear such content with the use of the Undersize function, I doubt that it would be that much pressure. I mean I'm not very good at the most difficult content myself but with a lot of help I've managed to clear even T13 a few months back. Plus, you eventually get used to the mechanics from experiencing them yourself. I mean the video guides are helpful for knowing how things should look, but whether or not you can actually make that happen with your character is a whole other story that only your personal experience will speak to. Either way, I would say do it because it's both fun and amazing, not because of any pressure. I always wanted to do Coils, always wanted to have those cutscenes for myself, whereas with Alexander I find the story uninspired and I don't like Mide either. Coils has a greater tie-in to MSQ and so is bound to be more interesting.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Hm Soul Surrender and we see Alisea resting on a couch.

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Hmm... my fear is that it didn't really look like a resting pose and maybe she's unconscious, especially with how Alphinaud is crouching next to her.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I'd say stick with what we have in the MSQ... Let the Scions have cinematic fights, while we get actual fights in the form of instanced trials... I loved the Grand Melee and our fight with Regula for that... Perhaps our final encounter with Derplander can function a bit more like that, with some Praetorium mixed in; Lets say you go in against all of them with all our Scion buddies. We get them down to a certain %, then a cutscene triggers, perhaps Blanhaerz and Y'shtola get an involved cutscene that takes them out of the fight proper, and we carry on with them removed, then that continues until it's just us against Derplander, with the final blow knocking him back in a cutscene similar to what we saw with Gaius. Would we be involved much in those epic cutscenes? No, not at all... I don't think we need to be though...

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I think one of the problems with the sort of instance that you describe is that all members of the WoD's group are supposed to be as strong as he is. At least, that was my impression. So, while the Scions are strong, would we really leave each one of them to face such individuals alone?

I... I don't like that the next trial is Sophia. I thought she would be the last one of the Triad, but nooo... Let's leave the most boring of the 3 as the last one the players will fight. I still expect a great fight like always, as well as a great OST. A Shiva-like phase where Sophia unleashes different thunder spells and charm mechanics that makes the players coordinate well where they are moving. Also her ultimate is most likely to be Cloudy Heaven.

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Originally Posted by Tenkuu

I always wanted to do Coils, always wanted to have those cutscenes for myself, whereas with Alexander I find the story uninspired and I don't like Mide either. Coils has a greater tie-in to MSQ and so is bound to be more interesting.

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Just, uh, don't let your expectations get too high initially. The story honestly isn't anything special until Final Coil (which is why some of us are expecting more from this last part of the Alexander story) with the exception of the post-T5 revelation and the T9 cutscenes. Yes, the Final Coil story is really good, but unfortunately, a lot of people like to forget that most people didn't care about the Coil story until people really started to clear T12...

EDIT: Actually, thinking about it, a lot of what made the Final Coil story good was the stuff from T12...but to hear it after going through Heavensward, knowing what we do now...

I would like to hear what people who did the story in reverse (HW -> Coil) think about it...

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

I... I don't like that the next trial is Sophia. I thought she would be the last one of the Triad, but nooo... Let's leave the most boring of the 3 as the last one the players will fight. I still expect a great fight like always, as well as a great OST. A Shiva-like phase where Sophia unleashes different thunder spells and charm mechanics that makes the players coordinate well where they are moving. Also her ultimate is most likely to be Cloudy Heaven.

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It would've made perfect sense to pair Zurvan " the god of infinite time and space" with the final wing of Alexander and his time shenanigans, but nooooooooooooo.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

I... I don't like that the next trial is Sophia. I thought she would be the last one of the Triad, but nooo... Let's leave the most boring of the 3 as the last one the players will fight. I still expect a great fight like always, as well as a great OST. A Shiva-like phase where Sophia unleashes different thunder spells and charm mechanics that makes the players coordinate well where they are moving. Also her ultimate is most likely to be Cloudy Heaven.

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Don't dismiss it just yet. Who knows how they will spruce up Demon (don't know his real name) for this game. Hell, Sephirot's theme was awesome and I'm looking forward to the rest of the Triad.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

I doubt this. The Warriors of Darkness exist because the Warrior of Light is currently an imbalance (or so Elidibus claims).

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Are they being used for that purpose? Yes. But I think saying that they actually exist for that purpose is probably a bit much, especially since we know that they were once Warriors of Light.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Just, uh, don't let your expectations get too high initially. The story honestly isn't anything special until Final Coil (which is why some of us are expecting more from this last part of the Alexander story) with the exception of the post-T5 revelation and the T9 cutscenes. Yes, the Final Coil story is really good, but unfortunately, a lot of people like to forget that most people didn't care about the Coil story until people really started to clear T12...

EDIT: Actually, thinking about it, a lot of what made the Final Coil story good was the stuff from T12...but to hear it after going through Heavensward, knowing what we do now...

I would like to hear what people who did the story in reverse (HW -> Coil) think about it...

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Maybe you misunderstood what I wrote? I was saying in the same paragraph that I've already cleared T13 a few months ago. As for my expectations, they were high, and they were still surpassed in every instance, from the Binding Coil to the Final Coil. Not to say that I didn't find T10-13 to be the most interesting, but it was cool to see us actually progress to reach that point. Though if I haven't said so before, I had seen the cutscenes before on YouTube because I was afraid I might never get to finish Coils, and I didn't mind the spoilers at all in this case. I simply wanted to have these cutscenes for myself, ie with my character, because it feels more special. :)

As for Alexander, I had no expectations at all, not even negative ones. However, Mide proved to be an uninteresting character who made decidedly stupid choices, and the Illuminati are no more interesting to me. Not to mention that the very concept of a machine Primal is rather unimpressive and uninspired to me. Right now I just do my weekly Midas for my Midan Gear, but I care nothing for the fight or the story.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Sounds like both see the other as the parasite that is burning out existence.while hydelyn didn't use the exact words, it seems a similar reasoning for the banishment of Zodiark.

One fear is that the continuing cycle will cause Zodiark's revival and an end to existence as we know it. Could the other be that stopping the cyclical nature of destiny is what causes the end of existence? That without Zodiark's supposed revival there is no one to take the seat of "the mothercrystal" after Hydelyn fades totally?

/speculation

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Well she 'banished' Zodiark because he became corrupted after thirsting for more power (they coexisted, so maybe they fed each other their Aether and then one day Zodiark suddenly got a little greedy). I wonder if Hydaelyn can continue to exist without Zodiark...

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Originally Posted by Tenkuu

Are they being used for that purpose? Yes. But I think saying that they actually exist for that purpose is probably a bit much, especially since we know that they were once Warriors of Light.

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They probably/most likely know what would happen if we continued down the path of ridding the world of Ascians. They defeated Ravana, so their goal doesn't involve the death of Hydaelyn.

But why did Zodiark want power? Power is something that only exists in comparison to the present self, so something would need to have happened for Zodiark to feel "weak." If Zodiark was always powerful, he wouldn't have needed to seek it.

There has to be something there that we haven't been told.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

I... I don't like that the next trial is Sophia. I thought she would be the last one of the Triad, but nooo... Let's leave the most boring of the 3 as the last one the players will fight. I still expect a great fight like always, as well as a great OST. A Shiva-like phase where Sophia unleashes different thunder spells and charm mechanics that makes the players coordinate well where they are moving. Also her ultimate is most likely to be Cloudy Heaven.

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Keep in mind that the fight against Sephirot was nothing like how it was in ffvi. It wouldn't surprise me if neither of the two others share anything aside from appearance with their ffvi counterparts as well.

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Originally Posted by Mholito

Keep in mind that the fight against Sephirot was nothing like how it was in ffvi. It wouldn't surprise me if neither of the two others share anything aside from appearance with their ffvi counterparts as well.

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You're right. At least Sephirot had Fiendish Rage, so I expect to see Cloudy Heaven as well.

My biggest question is what beast tribe worshiped Sophia?

We have no hints, not like the Sightseeing Log of Sephirot.

Completely random, unfounded stab in the dark for beyond even 3.4: Alisae returns to the party and spends a good deal of screentime building a rapport with her brother, and the big cliffhanger for 3.55 (assuming we get additional MSQ like we did last time) is the Alphinaud somehow becomes separated from us and imperiled, which sets up Alisae as our primary "sidekick" for 4.0 as we search for her brother in addition to al the inevitable liberating/primal slaying we end up doing.

Also Deftarm should join our party because reasons.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

My biggest question is what beast tribe worshiped Sophia?

We have no hints, not like the Sightseeing Log of Sephirot.

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Seeing as how they're very matriarchal and also originally hail from Meracydia, it could very well have been ancient Miqo'te.

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Originally Posted by Laili

Also Deftarm should join our party because reasons.

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You just want to boss him around again :P

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Originally Posted by PArcher

You just want to boss him around again :P

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Deftarm > everyone in DF.

While it's relevant again, I'd like to go over the Lahabrea / Elidibus [Balance / Hydaelyn is bad] thing with a fine-toothed comb. It's overdue.

Let me start out by saying that I'm not attempting to dismiss the idea of questioning Hydaelyn; the righteous should welcome doubt, for it can only be overcome, and their position will be all the stronger for it. If Hydaelyn is The Way, She can take some questioning. But that cuts both ways, and the idea of buying what the Ascians are selling raises some concerns for me when subjected to that same level of skepticism.

There's no denying that we're meant to question to what degree the Light should be spreading. Right off the bat, that begs one question: With how badly Hydaelyn has been losing, are the Ascians even accurate in their characterization of Light overstepping its bounds? Or has the Light just stopped following the millennia-old trend of getting weaker and weaker? If Hydaelyn is pushed back 40 yards and regains 10, She's still not even back to midfield. But let's put that aside for now. Let's assume the Light is really threatening the marches, here.

Let's start with the big claim by Lahabrea:

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Originally Posted by Lahabrea

The growing imbalance afflicting the planet must be redressed. If it is permitted to worsen, the very laws of existence─both aetheric and physical─will be warped beyond all recognition. Know you the root of this corruption? Hydaelyn! Like a parasite, She must be burned out if the planet is to recover. And naught but the return of the one true god will ensure Her complete excision.

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Now there's an accusation! But Lahabrea holds it rather inconsistently, casting as much doubt on him as he's heaping on Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by Lahabrea

All that stands between this world and darkness is an irksome anomaly in the aether—the Echo.

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Originally Posted by Lahabrea

Alas, the gate to the void already stands open. Soon, Darkness shall consume all, and you shall bow down before the one true god.

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Which company line to Lahabrea's minions follow?

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Originally Posted by Masked Magus

Yesss...writhe! Writhe in eternal darkness!

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And other Ascians on board with his plans?

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Originally Posted by Nabriales

Insatiable hunger of the void! Devour all light and return this world to perfect darkness!

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They spend an uncomfortable amount of time acting like any other creature possessed of the Dark's greed.

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Originally Posted by Cloud of Darkness

In darkness, all is as one. Be it hope or despair, everything is mine to devour. All mortals before the flood of darkness will sink lifeless into the void!

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So let's move on to Elidibus, starting with a line borrowed from French and his talk of cosmic balance:

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Originally Posted by Elidibus (FR)

Lorsque vous aurez pleinement accepté son pouvoir, l'Écho vous ouvrira les portes de la connaissance. Alors le conflit qui déchire nos deux peuples n'aura plus de raison d'être, tant il est vrai que nous partagerons les mêmes desseins.
When you fully accept its power, the Echo opens doors to knowledge. Conflict between our peoples would serve no purpose, as we would share the same goal.

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Originally Posted by Elidibus

Without intervention, the balance between Light and Darkness will begin to shift, placing our mission in jeopardy. Hydaelyn's champion has grown too strong. [Their] might encroaches upon the realm of gods. Equilibrium must needs be restored. The time is come for you and yours to join the fray... Warrior of Darkness.

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A bit more consistent, this one.

Let's pause to consult our allies. Many have made comments about the Light's role in beckoning the Darkness.

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Originally Posted by Wandering Minstrel

But Archon Louisoix warned us that shadows will accompany the coming of dawn. In answer to ascendant light, darkness will gather in opposition...or so I interpret his words.

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The Ascians agree.

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Originally Posted by Ascian of the Twelfth Sword

Yes... As the Light burns brighter, so, too, are the shadows steeped deeper in Darkness.

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Oddly, our allies usually follow that up with, "We should still purge / banish / cast out / etc. the Dark, tho." Why?

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Originally Posted by Urianger

Harmony is ne'er truly absent. There lieth a balance in the constant swinging of the pendulum... <...> In the face of such trials, I feared the dawn would at last be overcome and the land shrouded in unending night. Thou hast my gratitude, and my unabashed admiration.

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Originally Posted by Urianger

In the welcome light of the Astral Era do the primals cast distorted shadows. 'Tis when the realm is filled with such brilliance that the contrasting darkness doth become absolute. Surrender not thy vigilance, for thou art the source of much radiance... <...> ...But be not disheartened. One day, by thy light, the darkness within and without shall be purged, and the Ascians shall taste lasting defeat. We need only have faith.

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Why are even primals quick to champion harmony while denouncing Darkness?

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Originally Posted by Ramuh

If thou wouldst champion the cause of harmony, I must have proof that thou art fit to play the role. Weather mine ire, and prove to me thereby that thou hast strength enough to stay the darkness which threateneth to consume thee. <...> If man is to be delivered from the Dark, it shall be by thy guiding Light alone. Stray not from the path, for if thou dost, thy people shall be truly lost...

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Back to Elidibus, whose failure to address this niche of the topic I find ... concerning.

For all his consistency, he's also consistently vague. We would "be of one mind" if we fully accepted the power of the Echo? Why is he not more specific? What if I assumed he meant that literally, a la Ascian Prime, all of our souls crammed into one? What if I assumed he meant that we should all just transcended mortality, Crystal be damned, leave the cycle of the Lifestream, and accept that the death of the world we fought for was fait accompli and for the best? What if he's just assuming that we definitely wouldn't be on board if he was any clearer?

Notice that zero champions of the Anti-Light crowd have any stake in the status of mortals post-endgame.
Notice that Hydaelyn was pretty specific about what She expected in such a scenario.

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Originally Posted by Hydaelyn

[The Light] hath faltered, so hath Darkness risen up in its stead, presaging an end to Life.

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Elidibus says that he's not our enemy, that we'd share his goals, and that he just wants to make things right.
So, when he had the chance, why didn't he even try to refute that accusation?

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Originally Posted by Elidibus

These lands, these people, this world─all shall soon change. As it was, so shall it be again. As it should always have been.

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Didn't the Gerun Oracles imply that the "original state" of mortals was "nonexistent"?

Given the same opportunity to make a return to the good old days sound like a swell idea, Lahabrea somehow managed to do worse.

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Originally Posted by Lahabrea

Through the Joining, the world shall become whole again. Then all shall be as once it was─as it should ever have remained. <...> Come, mortals! Render up your souls, that Lord Zodiark might be reborn!

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I'm left feeling equally concerned that 1) Hydaelyn's version of the story is, at best, biased, or at worst, incomplete and misleading. And that 2) agreeing with the Ascians is equivalent to saying, "They have a point. Let's just die." (Okay, maybe I'm a little more concerned about the second one, personally, but objectively they're roughly on par.)

"If only we had some other ancient third party's opinion."
- Something I think I saw someone say somewhere probably.

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Originally Posted by Tiamat

Such is my just punishment for consorting with Darkness

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Originally Posted by Midgardsormr

Come, mortal─we go to cast out the Darkness!

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There are definitely some questions as to the story Hydaelyn would have us believe. But are we also at risk of becoming...

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Originally Posted by Hraesvelgr

Beguiled by the dark ones' lies

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This seems like a great time to quote the Thaumaturges' Guildmaster...

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Originally Posted by Cocobuki

Hm hm hm... You think darkness is your ally? Be wary, for darkness bears no allegiances.

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But this is the same lalafell that called bats and slugs voidsent. Sooo... not the most authoritative source.

#TEAMHYDAELYN

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I'd like to go over the Lahabrea / Elidibus "balance" thing with a fine-toothed comb. It's overdue.

YUGE edit incoming.

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Oh boy

*rushes off to get some snacks and drink*

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Originally Posted by PArcher

You just want to boss him around again :P

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Seems like a perfect fit for my "Squadron" tbh!

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Alles, alles muss in den Urzustand zurückkehren - dieser Planet ... Eorzea ... ihr Sterblichen. Alles.
Everything, everything must return to its original state - this planet ... Eorzea ... you mortals. Everything.

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To me, this sounds like he wants things to return to the way they were back when Hydaelyn and Zodiark coexisted... was there life before Zodiark was banished?

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Originally Posted by Nestama

To me, this sounds like he wants things to return to the way they were back when Hydaelyn and Zodiark coexisted... was there life before Zodiark was banished?

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And killing all life on the prosses, beacuse for them life ( birth - death ) is something that should have never being existed on the first place.

We cant allow that.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

... was there life before Zodiark was banished?

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I don't want to say, "Definitely not." Elidibus clearly knows way more than we do, regardless of whether or not he's telling us the "good parts" or if he's just jerking us around to buy time and drum up the next big Calamity-causing conflict. (Perhaps re-embrace the "use the Warrior of Light" plan versus the soon-to-be-Allagan-equivalent Garlean Empire? Stay tuned!).

However, the Gerun Oracles SEEM TO imply that Hydaelyn created mortal life because she feared the already exiled Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by Gerun Oracles

In the beginning, before myth and legend,
before Light and Dark, there was but the sea.
In the beginning, before man and hist'ry,
Light and Dark were divided, the sea sundered in fourteen.
To the seas She cast Her children, for fear of the Moon.
For hate of the Star, to the seas He cast His doom.

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Kind of burnt out on the game... admittedly.... I really hate these two dungeon patches.

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Originally Posted by Lunafreya

Kind of burnt out on the game... admittedly.... I really hate these two dungeon patches.

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What does that have to do with the lore?

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Originally Posted by Fenral

EverQuest expansions were individual installs that you could mix-and-match for a very long time, before they gave in and adopted the WoW distribution model. Final Fantasy XI expansions are also (technically) independent, with occasional caveats like Abyssea requiring Rise of the Zilart and Wings of the Goddess, but not the other two in between. Star Wars: The Old Republic lets you skip to the current expansion and has never required the previous expansions. And so on.

The usual marketing assumption is that you'll want all of them, so they make it as easy as possible with discounts and combo packs and such, but seeing as the FFXIV launcher is set up for individual expansion installs and version updates, I'm guessijng they'll be independent for at least a little while longer. At the very least, it wouldn't surprise me.

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Fair enough, though in this case it wouldn't make much sense to allow them to be installed independently. With Heavensward covering all of the 50-60 content and 4.0 presumably covering 60+ someone buying 4.0 without Heavensward wouldn't really be able to do much with the new content. The only way that might work is if 4.0 adds new 50-60 regions as well but the majority of the playerbase would see that as a waste of resources developing content that would be dead on arrival.

Independent expansion installs for EQ1 and FFXI worked largely because the expansions introduced new regions for all level ranges. I just don't see 4.0 following that pattern.

Wow nice post Anonymoose. :D

My problem siding with the Ascians is exactly that what you described. Most of the Ascians we know, want the mortals dead and Elidibus does not tell us anything, even if we would join his side if we know the truth. So why would he not tell us the truth? Why "create" the WoD to defeat us if he could just talk a little and change our mind?

My "head cannon" for now: Hydaeyln and Zodiark existed both together in peace and there was no death. But it was Hydaeyln that first somehow got more power and created the mortals. This also created the concept of death. Not everyone that existed at that time (whoever that might be) was alright with that and Zodiark tried to change it back to how it was (or maybe wanted to use the power too). But this would have killed us, her children and thus Hydaelyn banished him and destroyed reality even further.

With that some of the echo user might have been a little shocked that Hydaelyn is not the 100% all good mother crystal and thus did not want to speak about it and maybe Elidibus hoped that we would join his side if we know that it was her that started it all. But even if we kinda could see his reasoning we would still fight for her, since we are naturally "selfish" and want to life on. ;) (Maybe Echo user would survive the rejoining?)

But those are just my small ideas. Who knows what SE has planned.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Independent expansion installs for EQ1 and FFXI worked largely because the expansions introduced new regions for all level ranges. I just don't see 4.0 following that pattern.

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The Old Republic has more linear continuity than FFXIV (since not a single side-story arc is ever forgotten), and does it by allowing a one-time skip to the latest expansion's minimum level (a la WoW). Yoshida talks like they have something similar planned, but it's hard to say. I'm just talking in terms of what the current architecture indicates, not whether or not it's a good idea.


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But on the topic of harmony and the schism between Light and Darkness, I think the wording is still vague enough to allow either interpretation. The creation of man could be either the result of the schism, or the cause of it. If it's the result, restoring what was means erasing mortal life, which is a "sorry but no." If it was the cause, we need only restore the universe to as it was before Hydaelyn tried to protect mortalkind from Zodiark.

I still think there's more to the tale than Hydaelyn has revealed. I think it's probably that she's just as 'bad' as Zodiark and lusted for power herself - and whilst her intentions may be better than Zodiark's where mortals are concerned I think she's just as liable to exploit them for her own ends. Perhaps her lust for control was what threw the delicate balance into being skewed and as a result she herself is to blame for setting the Ascian's gruesome methods into motion.

And what do you base that off of?

I think there is more to the tale(at least I hope there is), but not that Hydelyn is evil so much as misguided, reality apparently broke from her actions. Even if its the world that we are living in, reality's still busted, can't say "oh we'll leave it like this, its fine" Something is clearly missing from this between the fading hydelyn and Derplander's presence, and "Ascian lies, everything's ok." doesn't quite match it up, imo.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

And what do you base that off of?

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The simple fact that the trickle of information regarding Hydaelyn, Zodiark, The Ascians and the Warriors of Darkness is so gradual. There's clearly much that we haven't been told or shown yet - and quite a few mysteries to unravel as well such as Minfilia's predicament and why she was put in the position she found herself in at Hydaelyn's demand. Plus it's often the case with Final Fantasy's antagonists for their motivations to have at least some justification. If nothing else I imagine quite a few people will be - understandably - disappointed if the entire conflict is wrapped up abruptly or ends up being very simplistic. I doubt it will be though - call it a hunch, I suppose.

3.4 should provide quite a few answers though - and provide yet more questions in the process. It should be exciting and provide a lot of fresh material for people to discuss and speculate upon.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

What does that have to do with the lore?

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Woops I thought this was a patch discussion thread.

At the bare minimum, we should be learning what Urianger has been up to meeting with Elydibus; Alisae's return will see that question gets brought to light.

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Originally Posted by Lunafreya

Woops I thought this was a patch discussion thread.

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Just link your comments to the game's lore and you should be fine!

So i may have a theory about the former warrior of light.

I went back to discuss with Urianger,and he told me something very interesting:
He said that Louisoix probably used the power of Althyk to send the warrior of light in an other dimension,that they were riped of from their reality explaining why no one can remember what they look like,and then,we see that the warrior of light took the side of Ascien.

Now the question,did louisoix send the warrior of light into the Ascien realm,because he know something about hyadelin that we dont know ? Does that mean that in fact,the Ascien are not the bad guys we think they are ?

And one last thing about Ascien that i think about,the first time we discussedwith a AScien,he told us that we could see him beacause of the Echo and because we must be aware of them to be able to see them,so their form must change depending of how you see them,so do we see them shrouded in darkness because we were told so ?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Just link your comments to the game's lore and you should be fine!

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Not tring to go off topic but...
If you take a moment to read the comment Luna said before, it wasnt.
I guess she misundertood the places, this is patch discussion thread but in the lore part, not the general discussion.

I wonder if these tomestones are the oldest we've collected yet being "scripture/theology" which has very religious connotations--and the Allag hadn't practiced religion during their last big technoboom? (Though I suppose you could interpret Mythology that way too)

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Though labeled a crozier by the Sons of Saint Coinach who unearthed the relic, it is unlikely this crooked staff was used for religious purposes, as it is well documented that most late Third Astral Era Allagans abandoned the theological in order to pursue the technological.

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It's possible they contain studies on the religions of other peoples; who and how they worshiped, idols, Primal-related stuff...

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Just link your comments to the game's lore and you should be fine!

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Okay then :P

I think we will have to go to both dungeons as part of the MSQ.

In Order: The Great Gubal Library (Hard): Because Urianger, Elidibus were there and that is where the Gerun Oracles were shown. Plus a white hooded figure that is either Alisale or Unukalhai was also there. And besides there is to be a reason they skipped over Snowcloak, Silvertear and 4 of the leveling dungeons for this

Then once we finish Back to the Library Part II, and perhaps deal with the Warriors of Darkness, we will then meet up with Yda and Papalymo, the Scions fully reunited (given circumstances, that is as close as we're gonna get). We will then learn what they were doing and find a reason to head to Ala Mhigo. Deliberately taking the most dangerous path to secure. Xelphatol.

Of course, the order can be reversed given that Alisale seems to be unconscious

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Originally Posted by Gleipni

And one last thing about Ascien that i think about,the first time we discussedwith a AScien,he told us that we could see him beacause of the Echo and because we must be aware of them to be able to see them,so their form must change depending of how you see them,so do we see them shrouded in darkness because we were told so ?

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Consider the best looks we got of them were silhouettes (unless you're Legacy) It has me wondering if the Warriors of Darkness are to Eloidibus what the Minor Arcana themed ascians are to Lahabrea