It’s also all but a given that the expansion will include at least two new jobs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

And its very true those two did perfectly well as a pair yet we have to have raid teams of2 tanks 4dps 2 healers, adding a third tank and a third healer really shakes the tree so I want to be a bit real here and ask what would you have done for a third healer?

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Depends. If I had been there during the design meeting and everyone was hellbent on AST entering the game, I'd say HoTs. HoTs all day every day; if the job absolutely must have Nocturnal and Diurnal Sects, have the job cycle between the two through spell use (say that casting 4 Benefics will shift you from one to the other), some utility with minor bonuses per sect and a skill that does a beneficial party effect and switches you to the opposite sect. There's other adjustments that would need to be made, but it's a start.

If I had been given carte blanche, on the other hand...

Pipe Dreams: Chemist

Weapon: Medic's Rifle
Role: Healer
Cross-class: ARC (Hawkeye, Raging Strikes, Quelling Strikes), LNC (Feint, Invigorate, Blood for Blood)

Abilities
01 Steady Shot - Delivers an attack with a potency of 150.
02 Basic Potion - Restores target's HP. Cure potency: 400. 2s cast time.
04 Toxic Dart - Delivers an attack with a potency of 30. Additional effect: Damage over time with a potency of 30 for 18s.
06 Medic's Kit - Reduces the potency of damaging abilities by 40% while causing all healing abilities to gain potency from your Dexterity. Cooldown: 5s. Effect ends upon reuse.
08 Pluto Vapors - Increases defense and magic defense of self and all party members. Does not stack with Protect. 2.5s cast time.
10 Mending Ampoule - Throw an ampoule at target area, healing friendly targets within 5y. Cure potency: 150. Additional effect: Creates a designated area that lasts for 12s and heals friendly targets that step inside every 3s. Cure potency: 80.
12 Remedy Dart - Removes a single detrimental effect from target.
15 Stim Dart - Grants a healing over time effect with cure potency of 200 for 9s. Cooldown: 30s.
18 Phoenix Pinion - Resurrects target in a weakened state. 6s cast time.
22 Aimed Shot - Delivers an attack with a potency of 190. Cast time: 1.5s.
26 Preparation - The next ability activates instantly. Cooldown: 90.
30 Advanced Potion - Restores target's HP. Cure potency: 600. 3s cast time. Requires Medic's Kit.
34 Tranquilizer Dart - Puts target to sleep for 30s. Damage taken cancels the effect. Cooldown: 15s.
38 Revitalizer - Restores own TP over time. Duration: 15s. Cooldown: 60s.
42 Receptiveness - Increases target's HP restored by spells or actions by 15% for 15s. Cooldown: 90s.
46 Tar Bomb - Covers target in tar, reducing their movement and attack speed by 10% for 15s. Additional effect: Creates a designated area at target's feet that afflicts all who enter with Weight. Duration: 15s. Cooldown: 60s.
50 Pluto Concentrate - Reduces target's damage taken by 20% for 10s. Cooldown: 120s. Cannot be reused on an individual for 60s from when the effect wears off.

Traits
08 Enhanced Dexterity
14 Potion Residue - Your healing potions have a 10% chance of leaving residue on target, increasing the healing received from the next Basic Potion or Advanced Potion by 10%. Duration: 10s.
16 Enhanced Dexterity II
20 Maim and Mend
24 Enhanced Dexterity III
28 Impact Casing - When a target under the effect of Stim Dart takes direct damage, Stim Dart is consumed and target receives the full heal amount.
32 Enhanced Remedy Dart - When Remedy Dart removes a detrimental effect, it also restores target's HP. Cure potency: 50.
36 Hasty Preparation - Reduces the cooldown of Preparation to 60s.
40 Maim and Mend II
44 Enhanced Toxic Dart - Extends the duration of Toxic Dart to 24s.
48 Enhanced Revitalizer - Revitalizer now also reduces the TP cost of all healing abilities by 50%.

Job Abilities
30 Catalyst - Applies an alchemical mixture that reacts to effects present on target. Cooldown: 15s.
-----Potion Residue - Restores target's HP. Cure potency: 300. Consumes Potion Residue.
-----Toxic Dart - Delivers an attack with a potency of 200.
-----Tar Bomb - Causes target to explode, dealing fire damage to target and nearby enemies with a potency of 120. Consumes Tar Bomb.
35 Conic Blast - Deals damage to targets in a cone before you with a potency of 110.
-----Medic's Kit: Restores HP to self and party members in a cone before you. Cure potency: 300. Cast time: 3s.
40 Corrosive Acid - Reduces target's resistance to damage by 10% for 10s. Cooldown: 120s.
45 Potion Bomb - Restores own HP and HP of all nearby party members. Cure potency: 300. Cooldown: 30s.
50 Megalixir - Restores 50% of own and party members' max HP over 12s. Cooldown: 180s. Requires Medic's Kit.
52 Volatile Mixture - Causes target to take additional fire damage with a potency of 50 whenever they take direct damage for 15s. Cooldown: 180s.
54 Primer - Causes the effect of the next reaction triggered by Catalyst to also affect allies or enemies near target if the effect is Potion Residue or Toxic Dart. Increases the damage dealt by Tar Bomb's Catalyst reaction to 200 potency. Duration: 10s. Cooldown: 90s.
56 Double Load - Causes your weapon to fire two of the next Stim Dart or Toxic Dart. The effects are applied independent of each other on target. Duration: 10s. Cooldown: 180s.
58 Sedative Dart - Reduces target's damage dealt by 10% for 10s. Cooldown: 90s.
60 Mad Alchemist's Potion - Applies one of three possible buffs on target for 20s. Cooldown: 90s.
-----Vigor: Attack Up 10%
-----Alacrity: Speed Up 10%
-----Ferocity: Critical Hit Rate Up 10%

Limit Break - Ultralixir

Notes
- I'm aware this does not fit in because the overall theme of Heavensward is "new ideas entering a mentally-closed society".
- CHM is built around heals that sort of build off each other and skills that react to each other. I've used CNJ's skill spread as a base and worked off that for the sake of pacing.
- Medic's Kit is basically the reverse of Cleric Stance, in that it puts you in healer mode with the needed penalties to balance out CHM's healing output. As such, a CHM out of healer stance is not going to have access to certain skills and have very weak heals.
- Because CHM uses TP, I figured it would need abilities that helped its upkeep (hence access to Invigorate and Revitalizer). I may still need to put in additional TP recovery skills, or maybe have Medic's Kit increase the amount of TP recovered while in combat.
- All "Dart" skills are instant and can be used while moving. Steady Shot can also be used while moving.
- Impact Casing is meant to help with tank healing, while the HoT portion of Stim Dart would work on a DPS or the other healer since they're usually not getting hit in the face. I was thinking of doing something like Stim Dart but AoE or affect the whole party, but that got a bit weird.
- For those that may not remember, Pluto is the substance the antagonist in the PGL questline smoked to become resistant to damage.
- Potion Residue is there to set the foundation for reactions. The effect is consumed if you use a potion on someone with Potion Residue or use Catalyst on that party member.
- It might be a bit OP for a healer to have 20% damage taken reduction AND 10% enemy damage reduction, but I feel it would be good utility. Of course, both are on lengthy cooldowns.
- The debuff from Pluto Concentrate is there to discourage raids stacking CHMs.
- Mad Alchemist's Potion can be replaced with a big AoE heal if needed, but I felt it fit the theme of CHM better. That and I can picture the effect for Mad Alch potion include your character cackling madly as they throw the potion at the target party member.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

but would AST really have been so overpowered with the 3.0 base potencies and free changing(lets just say war defiance like cd on diurnal/noct stances in combat? I mean they said something like it being op, but i still wonder.

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Well. The reason for 3.0 AST was the devs were indeed very, very scared it would be OP and raiding would be a double AST meta. (To be fair... I think a lot of the playerbase downplays the significance of AST's damage boost abilities)

The reason for the stances, and that they're locked in combat, is AST was meant to fill in for WHM in one of them and SCH for the other. Obviously that didn't work out (I guess they did think Scholar was essentially a single target shield and an AoE shield), but that's why it is the way it is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Depends. If I had been there during the design meeting and everyone was hellbent on AST entering the game, I'd say HoTs. HoTs all day every day; if the job absolutely must have Nocturnal and Diurnal Sects, have the job cycle between the two through spell use (say that casting 4 Benefics will shift you from one to the other), some utility with minor bonuses per sect and a skill that does a beneficial party effect and switches you to the opposite sect. There's other adjustments that would need to be made, but it's a start.

If I had been given carte blanche, on the other hand...

Pipe Dreams: Chemist

Weapon: Medic's Rifle
Role: Healer
Cross-class: ARC (Hawkeye, Raging Strikes, Quelling Strikes), LNC (Feint, Invigorate, Blood for Blood)

Abilities
01 Steady Shot - Delivers an attack with a potency of 150.
02 Basic Potion - Restores target's HP. Cure potency: 400. 2s cast time.
04 Toxic Dart - Delivers an attack with a potency of 30. Additional effect: Damage over time with a potency of 30 for 18s.
06 Medic's Kit - Reduces the potency of damaging abilities by 40% while causing all healing abilities to gain potency from your Dexterity. Cooldown: 5s. Effect ends upon reuse.
08 Pluto Vapors - Increases defense and magic defense of self and all party members. Does not stack with Protect. 2.5s cast time.
10 Mending Ampoule - Throw an ampoule at target area, healing friendly targets within 5y. Cure potency: 150. Additional effect: Creates a designated area that lasts for 12s and heals friendly targets that step inside every 3s. Cure potency: 80.
12 Remedy Dart - Removes a single detrimental effect from target.
15 Stim Dart - Grants a healing over time effect with cure potency of 200 for 9s. Cooldown: 30s.
18 Phoenix Pinion - Resurrects target in a weakened state. 6s cast time.
22 Aimed Shot - Delivers an attack with a potency of 190. Cast time: 1.5s.
26 Preparation - The next ability activates instantly. Cooldown: 90.
30 Advanced Potion - Restores target's HP. Cure potency: 600. 3s cast time. Requires Medic's Kit.
34 Tranquilizer Dart - Puts target to sleep for 30s. Damage taken cancels the effect. Cooldown: 15s.
38 Revitalizer - Restores own TP over time. Duration: 15s. Cooldown: 60s.
42 Receptiveness - Increases target's HP restored by spells or actions by 15% for 15s. Cooldown: 90s.
46 Tar Bomb - Covers target in tar, reducing their movement and attack speed by 10% for 15s. Additional effect: Creates a designated area at target's feet that afflicts all who enter with Weight. Duration: 15s. Cooldown: 60s.
50 Pluto Concentrate - Reduces target's damage taken by 20% for 10s. Cooldown: 120s. Cannot be reused on an individual for 60s from when the effect wears off.

Traits
08 Enhanced Dexterity
14 Potion Residue - Your healing potions have a 10% chance of leaving residue on target, increasing the healing received from the next Basic Potion or Advanced Potion by 10%. Duration: 10s.
16 Enhanced Dexterity II
20 Maim and Mend
24 Enhanced Dexterity III
28 Impact Casing - When a target under the effect of Stim Dart takes direct damage, Stim Dart is consumed and target receives the full heal amount.
32 Enhanced Remedy Dart - When Remedy Dart removes a detrimental effect, it also restores target's HP. Cure potency: 50.
36 Hasty Preparation - Reduces the cooldown of Preparation to 60s.
40 Maim and Mend II
44 Enhanced Toxic Dart - Extends the duration of Toxic Dart to 24s.
48 Enhanced Revitalizer - Revitalizer now also reduces the TP cost of all healing abilities by 50%.

Job Abilities
30 Catalyst - Applies an alchemical mixture that reacts to effects present on target. Cooldown: 15s.
-----Potion Residue - Restores target's HP. Cure potency: 300. Consumes Potion Residue.
-----Toxic Dart - Delivers an attack with a potency of 200.
-----Tar Bomb - Causes target to explode, dealing fire damage to target and nearby enemies with a potency of 120. Consumes Tar Bomb.
35 Conic Blast - Deals damage to targets in a cone before you with a potency of 110.
-----Medic's Kit: Restores HP to self and party members in a cone before you. Cure potency: 300. Cast time: 3s.
40 Corrosive Acid - Reduces target's resistance to damage by 10% for 10s. Cooldown: 120s.
45 Potion Bomb - Restores own HP and HP of all nearby party members. Cure potency: 300. Cooldown: 30s.
50 Megalixir - Restores 50% of own and party members' max HP over 12s. Cooldown: 180s. Requires Medic's Kit.
52 Volatile Mixture - Causes target to take additional fire damage with a potency of 50 whenever they take direct damage for 15s. Cooldown: 180s.
54 Primer - Causes the effect of the next reaction triggered by Catalyst to also affect allies or enemies near target if the effect is Potion Residue or Toxic Dart. Increases the damage dealt by Tar Bomb's Catalyst reaction to 200 potency. Duration: 10s. Cooldown: 90s.
56 Double Load - Causes your weapon to fire two of the next Stim Dart or Toxic Dart. The effects are applied independent of each other on target. Duration: 10s. Cooldown: 180s.
58 Sedative Dart - Reduces target's damage dealt by 10% for 10s. Cooldown: 90s.
60 Mad Alchemist's Potion - Applies one of three possible buffs on target for 20s. Cooldown: 90s.
-----Vigor: Attack Up 10%
-----Alacrity: Speed Up 10%
-----Ferocity: Critical Hit Rate Up 10%

Limit Break - Ultralixir

Notes
- I'm aware this does not fit in because the overall theme of Heavensward is "new ideas entering a mentally-closed society".
- CHM is built around heals that sort of build off each other and skills that react to each other. I've used CNJ's skill spread as a base and worked off that for the sake of pacing.
- Medic's Kit is basically the reverse of Cleric Stance, in that it puts you in healer mode with the needed penalties to balance out CHM's healing output. As such, a CHM out of healer stance is not going to have access to certain skills and have very weak heals.
- Because CHM uses TP, I figured it would need abilities that helped its upkeep (hence access to Invigorate and Revitalizer). I may still need to put in additional TP recovery skills, or maybe have Medic's Kit increase the amount of TP recovered while in combat.
- All "Dart" skills are instant and can be used while moving. Steady Shot can also be used while moving.
- Impact Casing is meant to help with tank healing, while the HoT portion of Stim Dart would work on a DPS or the other healer since they're usually not getting hit in the face. I was thinking of doing something like Stim Dart but AoE or affect the whole party, but that got a bit weird.
- For those that may not remember, Pluto is the substance the antagonist in the PGL questline smoked to become resistant to damage.
- Potion Residue is there to set the foundation for reactions. The effect is consumed if you use a potion on someone with Potion Residue or use Catalyst on that party member.
- It might be a bit OP for a healer to have 20% damage taken reduction AND 10% enemy damage reduction, but I feel it would be good utility. Of course, both are on lengthy cooldowns.
- The debuff from Pluto Concentrate is there to discourage raids stacking CHMs.
- Mad Alchemist's Potion can be replaced with a big AoE heal if needed, but I felt it fit the theme of CHM better. That and I can picture the effect for Mad Alch potion include your character cackling madly as they throw the potion at the target party member.

---

You know... everyone's saying they want dancer, or maybe something like red mage/blue mage/samurai healer... but I feel so meh about those, and would love to see something like this.

wanna see were the whole platoon thing goes but i wouldn't be surprised with 2 dps personally, with maybe a "shift" in 4 man design for 4.0+ (aka palace of dead ish) I also wanna say 2 dps cuz that would open some of the time balancing to the current tank and healers without having to worry about new classes to balance along with them. As with palace of the dead the trinity would still be optimal but would not be the only viable way. (I say optimal in the sense of "safe", haven't been keeping up but im guessing at 30/30 4 dps prolly pwn it)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gumbercules

but i wouldn't be surprised with 2 dps personally, with maybe a "shift" in 4 man design for 4.0+

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That would be... 'interesting' (if personally disappointing to me). Definitely they'd need to both have platoons enabled for dungeons, but also be viable (either pet-like near-immunity to AoE, or some kind of simply AI script for boss fights that can dodge, etc). Otherwise, the queues would be a multihour nightmare for DPS. And a lot of salt here on the forums (and well, anywhere there's an XIV community).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Well. The reason for 3.0 AST was the devs were indeed very, very scared it would be OP and raiding would be a double AST meta. (To be fair... I think a lot of the playerbase downplays the significance of AST's damage boost abilities)

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This wouldn't had happened if AST's buffs were easy to apply. Between having to draw cards, decide whether you want to Royal Road it or add it to spread, and then putting the cards to use, at least for me there's too many steps in-between. A random buff every 30 seconds from the push of one button would have been easier to work with and people would see the contributions from said buffs more. I ended up ignoring the cards when in actual combat to focus on healing or dealing damage, and just did the draw mini-game between pulls. That's how I realized the system has too many steps.

Quote:

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You know... everyone's saying they want dancer, or maybe something like red mage/blue mage/samurai healer... but I feel so meh about those, and would love to see something like this.

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Heh, thanks. People seem to think DNC works as a healer because of FFXI (though that was a failed experiment for certain reasons). I'm more for DNC being a tank, partly to help provide aesthetic variety to tanks, since right know we're all just guys in plate armor.

I'd love to see a Luchador class based around knockbacks and mobility, with stun, bind, and heavy debuffs they can apply, as well as being able to knock allies out of AoEs, with most of their DPS coming from DoTs.

I just want to suplex a train again

Two silhouettes on the new jobs slide. Hm hm hm hm!

For the sake of queues, I do hope at least one of those is a tank.

Hoping they're both hybrids -- Dancer and Red Mage...

...and that there are less rigid role requirements or job multi-queuing for the DF, or new challenges that can scale with composition.

Here's hoping those role-based additional skill changes might help with that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Hoping they're both hybrids -- Dancer and Red Mage...

...and that there are less rigid role requirements or job multi-queuing for the DF, or new challenges that can scale with composition.

Here's hoping those role-based additional skill changes might help with that.

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Same ! I'd like to see " Hybrid " as a New role. Scholar could definately turn this way Just like one of the new role....

Yeah what can we expect from these role-based skills ? All healers will have the same new skill ? Won't it make them have the same gameplay ?.... I'm confused.

it has been confirmed that it was two monks fighting now it would be red mage and samuria

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Well. The reason for 3.0 AST was the devs were indeed very, very scared it would be OP and raiding would be a double AST meta. (To be fair... I think a lot of the playerbase downplays the significance of AST's damage boost abilities)

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I'll never understand this. Release AST felt like the most underpowered job in this game's history.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mp-please

Hopefully healer. AST was a disaster that i would rather not have to see again.
Personally they should just focus on the current classes than add new ones, i even rather have more midcore content than 3 new classes that will play exactly like the ones we already have in the game except with a extra gimmick.

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AST so much fun, I switched from WHM main (since 1.0) to AST when it came out. Took me a while to actually accept that I liked it better than whm cause it was my original love and hard to abandon. But finally I bought the AST high end weapon over the WHM and have never looked back. They have made a lot of improvements on it and can't wait to see AST grow even more moving forward to the next exp.

AST a disaster? I think not but that is my opinion. Instead of just healing and dps'ing, we get to buff people with powerful card buffs! It adds a whole new fun element and I really enjoy it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mendalas

AST so much fun, I switched from WHM main (since 1.0) to AST when it came out. Took me a while to actually accept that I liked it better than whm cause it was my original love and hard to abandon. But finally I bought the AST high end weapon over the WHM and have never looked back. They have made a lot of improvements on it and can't wait to see AST grow even more moving forward to the next exp.

AST a disaster? I think not but that is my opinion. Instead of just healing and dps'ing, we get to buff people with powerful card buffs! It adds a whole new fun element and I really enjoy it.

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A lot of the salt comes from AST's buffing being a mini game or a side mechanic rather than being its core identity. A lot of people were looking more forward to a support oriented healer, and what we ended up with was 4 buttons that all juggle 1 ability. Not to mention we pretty much fish for extended or expanded balance making every other draw feel kinda lackluster. It also, in my opinion, hasn't properly distanced itself from WHM.

On release, you have to admit that AST was quite underpowered, and it just never really recovered in reputation. Especially since it was the same time as the hardest raid we've ever gotten.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mendalas

AST so much fun, I switched from WHM main (since 1.0) to AST when it came out. Took me a while to actually accept that I liked it better than whm cause it was my original love and hard to abandon. But finally I bought the AST high end weapon over the WHM and have never looked back. They have made a lot of improvements on it and can't wait to see AST grow even more moving forward to the next exp.

AST a disaster? I think not but that is my opinion. Instead of just healing and dps'ing, we get to buff people with powerful card buffs! It adds a whole new fun element and I really enjoy it.

---

My point in that post wasn't that AST is fun or not. That's personal bias that i rather not bring to any argument, my point is that in terms of development AST was a convoluted mess. If they wanted to buff it they should've pulled the same they did with SCH and WAR with a complete rebalance before 3.2.

I'd rather them not add another healer right now.
AST is, currently, overpowered utility wise and WHM is on the verge of being unnecessary. SCH is also an untouchable god that needs to be addressed.
There's too much balance issues in the healer role to slap another one in there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I'd rather them not add another healer right now.
AST is, currently, overpowered utility wise and WHM is on the verge of being unnecessary. SCH is also an untouchable god that needs to be addressed.
There's too much balance issues in the healer role to slap another one in there.

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I think it's for those exact reasons that we DO need another healer. Everyone knows WHM and d.AST are in competition, by 4.0 it's pretty much guaranteed WHM will be buffed to a similar level. That leaves SCH, and job design wise n.AST can't compete. They can actually design a fourth healer specifically to compete with SCH. Having this direction could give us some hope that we won't get another mess like AST was.

Subsequently I believe if this were to happen that n.AST should just be removed from this game, but I doubt that'll happen. xD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

I think it's for those exact reasons that we DO need another healer. Everyone knows WHM and d.AST are in competition, by 4.0 it's pretty much guaranteed WHM will be buffed to a similar level. That leaves SCH, and job design wise n.AST can't compete. They can actually design a fourth healer specifically to compete with SCH. Having this direction could give us some hope that we won't get another mess like AST was.

Subsequently I believe if this were to happen that n.AST should just be removed from this game, but I doubt that'll happen. xD

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Exactly the same reason we can't have another overpowered tank to compete with war. If we get another healer to directly compete with SCH, WHM and AST is dead because everyone will run SCH+new healer.

Not if their shields don't stack :^)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mp-please

Exactly the same reason we can't have another overpowered tank to compete with war. If we get another healer to directly compete with SCH, WHM and AST is dead because everyone will run SCH+new healer.

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Well you need to factor in the end game content, possibly the most important thing with balance. Ideally it's not going to be so easy that you can forfeit a main healer from a party slot. That and two shielding jobs will never be optimal.

If we don't get another healer, 4.0 is either going to further homogenize the roles, or we'll simply see either WHM or AST dead anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mp-please

Exactly the same reason we can't have another overpowered tank to compete with war. If we get another healer to directly compete with SCH, WHM and AST is dead because everyone will run SCH+new healer.

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Even if Scholar's shields could stack I don't think people would be in that much of a rush to run Double Scholar. The class is good and all, but White Mage and Ast do have some very strong perks (aka regens) that make them more suited for main healing so to speak. Running x2 Scholar is still the worst healing comp.

Now if they gave Scholars the regens that Whm and Ast have then they would be broken and everyone would want x2 Scholars for everything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rennies

Not if their shields don't stack :^)

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What if they use more bubble type abilities instead of shields? Shields kinda overrated hp max increases are pretty godly lol

Isn't that basically a shield though :l


Bubble=Visible extra health
Shield=Invisible extra health

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Even if Scholar's shields could stack I don't think people would be in that much of a rush to run Double Scholar. The class is good and all, but White Mage and Ast do have some very strong perks (aka regens) that make them more suited for main healing so to speak. Running x2 Scholar is still the worst healing comp.

Now if they gave Scholars the regens that Whm and Ast have then they would be broken and everyone would want x2 Scholars for everything.

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2 White mages are much worse imo, but I guess it doesn't matter since 2 of the same healer will never be optimal as long as Square gives half a damn about balance

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Even if Scholar's shields could stack I don't think people would be in that much of a rush to run Double Scholar. The class is good and all, but White Mage and Ast do have some very strong perks (aka regens) that make them more suited for main healing so to speak. Running x2 Scholar is still the worst healing comp.

Now if they gave Scholars the regens that Whm and Ast have then they would be broken and everyone would want x2 Scholars for everything.

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I wasn't talking of 2 SCHs, i was talking of 1 SCH with a class as powerful as SCH. It doesn't even need to be able to shield, as long it outputs the same dps with the lack of mp dependency that SCH has as a offhealer and both WHM and AST are dead.

Quote:

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Recap still. Earlier they talked about DPS queue times and have been watching statistics during 3.x so they felt it would work out okay. People who play heal/tank typically stayed that role.

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Well, I'm not really sure what to say. Kind of called it, didn't foresee them adding only DPS jobs though. At least we'll get nice queue times? No new toys for us healers... but hopefully they'll balance healers slightly better this time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Well, I'm not really sure what to say. Kind of called it, didn't foresee them adding only DPS jobs though. At least we'll get nice queue times? No new toys for us healers... but hopefully they'll balance healers slightly better this time.

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after alot of these next healer, next tank debates, I came to the conclusion that we would see 2 dps this time around. I am sorry healers and tank mains dont get a new toy but trust me, im not even sure how they could implement a new tank or healer that wouldnt either push a formal one out forever, by being competitive with one guaranteed one by being designed to compete with it, and not make them similar enough to warrant being another job. With SAM being dps though, the number of iconic potential tanks left might be what 2?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

im not even sure how they could implement a new tank or healer that wouldnt either push a formal one out forever, by being competitive with one guaranteed one by being designed to compete with it, and not make them similar enough to warrant being another job.

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That pandora's box is already open, though. If we still only had 2 tanks/healers... yeah. As is, there's already the #deletepld #deletewhm crowd out there, and even if SE gives both jobs a really nice buff, then someone else will be on bottom.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

I am sorry healers and tank mains dont get a new toy but trust me, im not even sure how they could implement a new tank or healer that wouldnt either push a formal one out forever

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How is it really any different with DPS jobs though? There's going to be what? 9 DPS jobs in total now fighting over only 4 slots. 55% of the DPS jobs will be left out because there's always going to be some combo of jobs that works out to be the best. Its going to get worst no matter what if they keep adding new jobs, but with rate they are going, they are making it worst for the DPS faster for some reason.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ariane

How is it really any different with DPS jobs though?

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While I agree that there are DPS compositions that are more optimal and there's some DPS jobs that you definitely want (NIN for example), it's easier to put sub-optimal DPS compositions together without it actually hindering your progress to the point where it's obviously noticeable.

The same can't be said for healers and tanks. Remember that fiasco with PLD back in 3.0? PLDs were literally holding their groups back. Granted, by now there is no job that holds the group back in the way PLDs used to, but WHM and PLD most definitely make things uncomfortable and awkward for their partner. PLD in A12S forces the WAR to tank the boss for a while, where DRK gives no shits at all and puts out better DPS. Comparatively, WHM's horrid MP regeneration and lack of utility is so, so very laughable that you really have to wonder why anyone would want to bring one other than just blind love and loyalty to the job and its iconic status. Sure, they DPS "harder," but it's not sustainable at all, and there is absolutely nothing else they can do for their healing partner, unlike SCH and AST who can support each other very well.

That said, MNK isn't in a good spot right now, but bringing a MNK doesn't make you feel like your entire party is somehow gimped like WHM does.

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

That said, MNK isn't in a good spot right now, but bringing a MNK doesn't make you feel like your entire party is somehow gimped like WHM does.

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Debatable. MNK needs goad so that means NIN is pretty much a requirement (And also rules out that other undesirable that needs goad, Paladin, but at least Paladin doesn't take DRG's spot). And without DRG you're missing battle litany which is a pretty huge deal for effective openers and pushing phases, not to mention that piercing debuff that makes those mch+bard wombo combos oh so so sweet...

MNK not only doesn't bring much to the table for the others, you have to build your comp around it to make it work. So it kinda does gimp your whole party and that's why a lot of people take a dim view of MNK for raids.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Debatable. MNK needs goad so that means NIN is pretty much a requirement (And also rules out that other undesirable that needs goad, Paladin, but at least Paladin doesn't take DRG's spot). And without DRG you're missing battle litany which is a pretty huge deal for pushing phases, not to mention that piercing debuff that makes those mch+bard wombo combos oh so so sweet...

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To be completely fair, the MNK in our raid group has needed TP like once or twice ever. Not even in A9S back when it was new and didn't die in under 5 minutes. Granted, she's not "best MNK in the server" level, but ending every fight over 2k is I think pretty good for a midcore player.

There's enough jumps and inactivity phases in most fights that TP isn't a concern even for PLD, and if the case ever comes up, Spire can help.

Even with what you mentioned, though, it's still not comparable to how PLD forces the off-tank to change their gameplan in A12S, or how WHM offers literally nothing to the other healer. Of course, MNK is far from being optimal, but it's not as horribly inconvenient as the other two can be.

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

Even with what you mentioned, though, it's still not comparable to how PLD forces the off-tank to change their gameplan in A12S, or how WHM offers literally nothing to the other healer. Of course, MNK is far from being optimal, but it's not as horribly inconvenient as the other two can be.

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I mean I can turn that argument right back at you. WHM can allow the other healer exceptional DPS uptime, etc. WHM is far from trash, it's just a "Why take one when the others offer so much more."

Same deal with MNK. Yes you can do the raids with a MNK but MNK destroys optimal compositions and lowers the whole raid's DPS. If you don't care about that, more power to you. But a good number of people do.

PLD is probably the worst off, yeah, if there's a lot of magic damage it's just kind of like... why even bother.

The thing with our argument is how the impact of these jobs' problems affect different levels of play. At high levels of play, of course MNK is gonna be a liability because of how it destroys optimal composition, but it's for the most part perfectly fine in mid-levels of play.

The problem with WHM is that it feels like a liability even in mid-levels of play, specially with the current status of healer balance.

AST has an assured spot now instead of SCH, because really no one wants to miss Balance. SCH doesn't bring Balance, but its utility allows for both healers to DPS more. (As a parenthesis, the whole deal about WHM enabling the other healer to DPS more is a big myth, tbh. If you go for a full MH/OH mentality, all three healers can pull that off and let their partner go full-DPS, even Scholar. Of the three healers, the one that actually enables long DPS windows not only for themselves, but for both healers is SCH, NOT White Mage, due to the fairy's utility).

White Mage has absolutely nothing going for them right now other than the base minimum requirements for their role, which is a shame because it's a great and iconic job in the franchise. You only have to look at the many WHM mains being completely disappointed and beat over their favorite class being crap to realize this. It's even more gruelling because there's only three healer and tank jobs, yet one of them in both roles is completely pushed aside because of how bad they are.

I really want SB to bring WHM some love that it so desperately (and rightfully) deserves.

Never know...I have a feeling WHM is going to get some nice buffs in about 4 months or so. ;)