Report All the people Selling AND Buying houses in PF

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

How many people do you think would be capable of spending so much on a house? It won't be too many. As those people get taken out of demand, the price will drop.

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and you just contradicted your previous statement by saying this. =3= -gives up on trying to make sense-

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

The maximum price is however not above 200 million so your response of 'why should SE stop people who want to pay 200 million for a plot' is still just as ridiculous in the context of what I said above. SE set the maximum price already and flippers are the ones who buy at that maximum price then screw over everyone else by raising the price by ten times or more the maximum set by SE...no one with an ounce of common sense wants to spend 200 million for it if they do not have to and SE says they should not have to by allocating a maximum price already on plots that is way below that. It is the house flippers who force anyone who wants a plot to pay such stupid amounts more than SE told people they would need to spend an anyone who not only supports that but also 'wants' that is either a house flipper themselves, a troll or lacking common sense.

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And your comment was to StouterTaru. Perhaps you are the one who took him of context? Did you think of that?

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Originally Posted by Avera

and you just contradicted your previous statement by saying this. =3= -gives up on trying to make sense-

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It is not a contradiction. Do you even know how these markets work? Have you seen how the prices of new items added in a patch devalue as less people over time are willing to spend the asking price?

This is the same concept. It's an auction. Those willing to pay the most will get it first. Once they've purchased it, the next sale will be cheaper, because the competition has decreased.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

It is not a contradiction. Do you even know how these markets work? Have you seen how the prices of new items added in a patch devalue as less people over time are willing to spend the asking price?

This is the same concept. It's an auction. Those willing to pay the most will get it first. Once they've purchased it, the next sale will be cheaper, because the competition has decreased.

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You seem so passionately in defense of such a morally bankrupt course of action I have to ask do you flip houses yourself, buying at the maximum price SE set on what is already an extremely limited supply then reselling those plots at a vastly higher extortionate price and by proxy screwing other people over for personal greed? That level of greed which pushes people to use RMT and promotes the use of RMT if want to buy what SE told people they can already buy at a maximum price SE already set for it for much less...but which they cannot because you or house the house flippers you support screwed them over.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

You seem so passionately in defense of such a morally bankrupt course of action I have to ask do you flip houses yourself, buying at the maximum price SE set on what is already an extremely limited supply then reselling those plots at a vastly higher extortionate price and by proxy screwing other people over for personal greed? Is that who you are as a person?

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You sure do seem to like reading things that aren't there. Please point out where I defended house flipping. Go ahead, I'll wait.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

You sure do seem to like reading things that aren't there. Please point out where I defended house flipping. Go ahead, I'll wait.

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How about you answer my question instead.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

How about you answer my question instead.

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Your question? You mean your baseless accusation that I defend house flippers and that I must be one despite the fact that I have done no such thing? I'll keep waiting for you to point out where I defended house flipping.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Your question? You mean your baseless accusation that I defend house flippers and that I must be one despite the fact that I have done no such thing? I'll keep waiting for you to point out where I defended house flipping.

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My question asking you if you flip houses, buying plots just to resell at a vastly inflated price.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

My question asking you if you flip houses, buying plots just to resell at a vastly inflated price.

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Fine, I'll humor your insulting question. No, I've never resold a house. I've been patiently awaiting house reclamation that has been suspended for months now. And then decided against it and have decided to keep my house.

I answered your question, now please kindly point out where I've defended house flipping.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Fine, I'll humor your insulting question. No, I've never resold a house. I've been patiently awaiting house reclamation that has been suspended for months now. And then decided against it and have decided to keep my house.

I answered your question, now please kindly point out where I've defended house flipping.

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Defending Stouts position which is adamantly in favor of house flipping and telling people earlier that they should not be angry at house flippers, saying house flippers are not the problem. People have every right to be angry at house flippers because they screw them over and charge immensely more than what SE set as a maximum price for plots.

House flippers may not be the only problem but they sure as hell are part of the problem by charging extortionately more than what SE told people they would have to pay it which promotes and forces more people to resort to RMT while also locking people out of purchasing one not just based on saving up as much as SE told them they need to save up for one or whether quick enough to reach the plot but adding on top of that a group of jerk players based restriction of inflating the price beyond the maximum SE decided upon...a price beyond what SE said is already the most people should have to pay when set they it.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Defending Stouts position which is adamantly in favor of house flipping and telling people earlier that they should not be angry at house flippers, saying house flippers are not the problem. People have every right to be angry at house flippers because they screw them over and charge immensely more than what SE set as a maximum price for plots.

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They are a problem, but they are secondary problem. Getting rid of house flippers isn't going to get most of these people complaining a house. Fix the real problem and house flippers will disappear immediately. You can't expect people to pay a relinquishing fee that covers your cost AND a maximum price that is out of most people's range. It just won't happen. Flippers would be out of business, and the people who only somewhat want a house wouldn't even consider one anymore. This would open a lot of houses for those who truly want them.

This is of course a solution with the already existing constraint of very limited supply that SE has provided us with, which is the true problem. The best solution is obviously houses for everyone. But I'm being realistic, not idealistic.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

They are a problem, but they are secondary problem. Getting rid of house flippers isn't going to get most of these people complaining a house. Fix the real problem and house flippers will disappear immediately. You can't expect people to pay a relinquishing fee that covers your cost AND a maximum price that is out of most people's range. It just won't happen. Flippers would be out of business, and the people who only somewhat want a house wouldn't even consider one anymore. This would open a lot of houses for those who truly want them.

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SE can do more than one thing at a time, while they work on a full solution to all the problems they can start tackling flippers which are part of the problem. They shouldn't do nothing just because solving part of the problem won't solve all the problems. They can punish flippers now while work on a long term solution.

Strip anyone caught flipping houses of the house and give them no refund in the meantime which will put a lot of flippers off if see action being taken enough times while SE comes up with and implements a more extensive solution that covers the rest of the problems later. I have no sympathy for flippers, it screws over other people on one of the things that should never be used by players to screw others over in this game aka housing plots...there is little else as desired by the player base or as extremely limited or as expensive already for most people as plots which also already have a maximum price set by SE that flippers pay then raise by ten times or more that price.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Se can do more than one thing at a time, while they work on a full solution to all the problems they can start tackling flippers which are part of the problem. They shouldn't do nothing just because solving part of the problem won't solve all the problems. They can punish flippers now while work on a long term solution. Strip anyone caught flipping houses of the house and give them no refund in the meantime which will put a lot of flippers off if see action being taken enough times while SE comes up with and implements a more extensive solution that covers the rest of the problems later.

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That's all well and good, but what people should really be asking for is for SE to solve the issue. People think that's what they're doing here. They're not. They're asking for a cure for the symptoms, not a cure for the disease.

What I want is the problem fixed, which would simultaneously cure the symptom. And it's a very simple solution of raising a number.

Not to speak for him, but it's also what Stouter was saying. But you took it out of context and read it as him defending flippers. His suggestion would be the end of flippers.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

That's all well and good, but what people should really be asking for is for SE to solve the issue. People think that's what they're doing here. They're not. They're asking for a cure for the symptoms, not a cure for the disease.

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People in here are saying they want house flippers dealt with, it doesn't matter if they are stopped from doing it by a full solution or punished for doing it while SE works on that full solution but what they do not want is SE to do nothing just because SE hasn't come up with or implemented a full solution yet.

There are four things above and beyond all others from the social/community aspect aka (non-game features, functions or mechanics) which annoy me the most in this game. First is RMT, second is botters/cheaters, third is jerks who screw over or abuse new players in dungeons runs/trials or raids etc and fourth is house flippers. There are many other things that annoy me to varying degrees in the aspect of game with regards to functions, features and mechanics but from a social and community point of view those four things annoy me the most.

I am actually holding back on how I write things about this here to those in defense of flippers, if you merely want to express a possible solution that's fine but I suggest you don't tell me or anyone else they should not be angry over house flippers. They have every right to be angry at them and house flippers deserve the anger they get for it because it is something that screws over people on one of the things (more so than many others) which people should not be screwed over on by other players. Don't tell people they shouldn't complain about house flippers just because it is part of the problem and dealing with them would only solve part of the issues because surprising enough people are more than capable of caring about the house flipper issue while also caring about coming up with a full solution.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

house flippers screw people over on a very limited supply feature which SE have already set a maximum price people are expected to pay for it

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There aren't enough houses for everyone that wants one to get it at the "maximum price people are expected to pay for it." Period. Stripping away the 10% of houses that were flipped, getting angry, name calling, and leading a lynch mob against flippers won't change that.

The point of a reverse auction is that it starts more than anyone is willing to pay. That shifts the limited resource away from the lottery race system and into a system where everyone has an equal shot, and it eliminates flipping. Of course that's not acceptable, because a fair system without flipping isn't what the pitchfork and torch mob wants, they want their own house for cheap. But since they can't have that, they want someone else to be punished.

Like I said, be angry at house flippers all you want. But you should be even more angry at SE for not fixing this problem when they're fully capable of doing it.

I don't think there is technically anything in the TOS that state you can't pay someone to relinquish their lot or similar activities. It is socially unacceptable, maybe. But it is not unlawful.

You could loosely claim that 3.2 Disruption. You may not in any way disrupt or interfere with the Game experience of other players, including the disruption of Square Enix's computers and servers. But that would be stretching it.

People are calling bloody murder simply because they fell hurt about not having a plot. Personally, I would rather have SE focus on the solution, rather than the vocal minority. The sad truth is, the average player doesn't care, because the average player can't afford 3+ million Gil. 3 million is just as unreachable as 40 million.

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Originally Posted by Lan_Mantear

I don't think there is technically anything in the TOS that state you can't pay someone to relinquish their lot or similar activities. It is socially unacceptable, maybe. But it is not unlawful.

You could loosely claim that 3.2 Disruption. You may not in any way disrupt or interfere with the Game experience of other players, including the disruption of Square Enix's computers and servers. But that would be stretching it.

People are calling bloody murder simply because they fell hurt about not having a plot. Personally, I would rather have SE focus on the solution, rather than the vocal minority. The sad truth is, the average player doesn't care, because the average player can't afford 3+ million Gil. 3 million is just as unreachable as 40 million.

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Not true, I have a plot already but that doesn't mean I cannot be annoyed at house flippers on other peoples behalf. It is not just 'people feeling hurt about not having a plot'. There is right and wrong, house flippers are so far in the wrong that SE should punish them by taking away their houses and giving them no refund. Then SE puts that plot back on the market at the already decided maximum price SE set so someone who can afford to pay what SE told them would be the maximum they need to save up to buy it can do so, giving them an equal chance to buy one as someone who has more than what SE told them it would cost.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Not true, I have a plot already but that doesn't mean I cannot be annoyed at house flippers or mean they shouldn't be punished for their actions.

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You can be annoyed all you want, but that doesn't translate into them breaking the law. What should they be punished for? Hurting your feelings?

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Originally Posted by Lan_Mantear

You can be annoyed all you want, but that doesn't translate into them breaking the law. What should they be punished for? Hurting your feelings?

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I would put it down as harassment and/or disruptive behavior. It also is something that is against the intended purpose which is also punishable by SE. It doesn't need to be against the 'law', it just needs to be causing distress to a lot of people or breaking the 'rules' for SE to take action.

I see that you care more about incredibly cheap housing than an actual solution to supply and demand, so I see no further need to continue this nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

I would put it down as harassment and/or disruptive behavior.

It also is something that is against the intended purpose which is also punishable by SE.

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Again, you are stretching it. It takes 2 people to make a transaction. If people weren't buying, there would be no one selling. The easiest way to get rid of sellers is to stop the buyers. Stop trying to put labels on people for perceived slights. It's capitalism at work. If someone is willing to pay, why would you be unwilling to sell?

All SE needs to do to stop this behavior, is to put a cool down on relinquished lots. Preventing them from being bought for a 24+ hr period. Flipping abolished.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I see that you care more about incredibly cheap housing than an actual solution to supply and demand, so I see no further need to continue this nonsense.

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Ignorant and wrong. I am on topic of the thread itself. I have discussed the housing issues hundreds of times over the years on here, I have discussed full solutions and partial ones in countless threads. Just because some of us are now talking about house flipping in this thread on this occasion which is about that specific aspect does not mean by any stretch of the imagination that I only care about house flipping or just cheap housing. The thread is about house flippers, if you are not here to talk about them and only berate those who are then make your own thread about the other issues or solutions if that is what want. There are already other threads talking about solutions and I have taken part in hundreds over the years on that aspect too.

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Originally Posted by Lan_Mantear

Again, you are stretching it. It takes 2 people to make a transaction. If people weren't buying, there would be no one selling. The easiest way to get rid of sellers is to stop the buyers. Stop trying to put labels on people for perceived slights. It's capitalism at work. If someone is willing to pay, why would you be unwilling to sell?

All SE needs to do to stop this behavior, is to put a cool down on relinquished lots. Preventing them from being bought for a 24+ hr period. Flipping abolished.

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You would have no problem me paying SE to ban you from this game and SE taking that payment then banning you? Capitalism as the justification which apparently invalidates any complaint you have about being treated that way? Two people to tango, me and SE on the dance floor with you suffering/losing out because...capitalism for the win. Capitalism is not the excuse you should be using to justify bad behavior and causing suffering to many others which house flippers do.

A 24 hour cool down will not stop flipping at all, flippers would just wait 24 hours before resold them.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

You would have no problem me paying SE to ban you from this game and SE taking that payment and banning you? Capitalism for the win yes?

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lol, someone this has de-generated into a school yard brawl. At any case, if you want to throw money at SE to get me banned. More power to you. Let me know how that works out.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Ignorant and wrong. I am on topic of the thread itself. I have discussed the housing issues hundreds of times over the years on here, I have discussed full solutions and partial ones in countless threads. Just because some of us are now talking about house flipping in this thread on this occasion which is about that specific aspect does not mean by any stretch of the imagination that I only care about house flipping. The thread is about house flippers, if you are not here to talk about them and only berate those who are then make your own thread about the other issues or solutions if that is what want. There are already other threads talking about solutions and I have taken part in hundreds over the years on that aspect too.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

giving them an equal chance to buy one as someone who has more than what SE told them it would cost.

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This right here is at the center of the supply and demand issue. You want to keep the status quo.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

You want to keep the status quo.

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Wrong again. For example I said elsewhere I think SE should have gone down the personal instanced housing route rather than housing wards, everyone having a chance to own a house with it's own land but without the problems caused by having huge resource intensive wards active 24/7. That is not the 'status quo' but yes I do think everyone should have equal chance to own a house and I also think everyone should be able to own one if they can afford the price SE set...so sue me.

In the meantime since that is not something SE seems to want to do, SE should punish house flippers which cause distress and anger to a lot of the player base and is also part of the housing problem while work on a more extensive solution to the housing problem overall. This thread is about house flippers so I am mostly discussing those in here but make no mistake I don't only care about house flippers and have discussed all aspects of the housing problems over the years in many threads.

Guess what? I am not a one trick pony...go figure. :)

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

I think SE should have

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They didn't.

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I also think everyone should be able to own one if they can afford the price SE set...so sue me.

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They can't.

These things are unrealistic.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Say's you who thinks SE should raise house prices to over 200 million and that people 'want' to pay 200 million for a house?

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Says the complete lack of any houses left to buy.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

They didn't.

They can't.

These things are unrealistic.

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Say's you who thinks SE should raise house prices to over 200 million and that people 'want' to pay 200 million for a house?

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Says the complete lack of any houses left to buy.

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For someone who berated me and made claims that I 'only' care about house flippers rather than full/complete solutions and also that I should be concentrating on those full solutions rather than fixing parts of the problem which includes flippers (a focus of my discussion in this thread because this thread is about that), I posted a solution which might eliminate the housing shortage when I said 'I think SE should...' and it wouldn't mean raising the prices beyond what they already are yet you bashed it in the top quote.

You on the other hand posted what you think is a 'full?' solution (since you told me to focus my discussion on that surely you should be doing the same) which included raising the price to over 200 million and telling me that people 'want' to pay that much (which they don't and they wouldn't, they would want to pay much less which is why SE dropped the maximum price they set in the first place).

That is not a full solution at all even though you told me to focus discussion on full solutions instead of getting bogged down with house flippers, the biggest issue with housing is the lack of plots with no 'and, if or but' about it but your so called solution does nothing to change that...neither does Stouts or the 'reverse auction' idea. Maybe you should take your own advice and stop focusing on part of the problem instead of what my suggestion you hated did which is offer a full solution to not only pricing and house flipping issues but also the plot limitation issue which is the biggest problem.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Say's you who thinks SE should raise house prices to over 200 million and that people 'want' to pay 200 million for a house?

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I wanna say 200 million gil for a house is a waste of gil, especially if it's a cottage but then I remember how worthless gil is on this game compared to other MMOs lol. There really isn't much to sink gil into in this game save for housing, materia (which they making super easy to get anyway) and potions/food for high end raiding.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

He's not antagonizing though. Not his fault that people are meeting his posts with emotional responses.

The system is broken. This is SE's fault. They have a means to fix it and they don't use it. Be mad at people reselling all you want, it's not going to fix the broken system.

You're barking up the wrong tree.

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YES AGAIN, YES!
It is SE's Fault, but this doesn't mean people have to exploit this! Emotional Responses? Maybe Yes, anything wrong with that?

Seven hells...what happened o-o

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

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That's what it comes down to. You can round up the villagers with their pitchforks and torches to go after the profiteers, but that won't solve the actual issue.

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I think some of us are trying to use the situation to actually elicit a response.

People send in all these reports, the gm's have to deal with them...
People make a fuss on the forums...

People are trying to point a light on the problems that SE seems to refuse to acknowledge.
Stir up the hornets nest enough and maybe, just maybe, they'll at least say something.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

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A 24 hour cool down will not stop flipping at all, flippers would just wait 24 hours before resold them.

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I do believe you are misunderstanding the cooldown idea.

It's not a cooldown from when you purchase to when you can relinquish.
It's a cooldown from when you relinquish until it is made available for someone else to purchase.

Would work even better if the cooldown time had a random factor to it.

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

I think some of us are trying to use the situation to actually elicit a response.

People send in all these reports, the gm's have to deal with them...
People make a fuss on the forums...

People are trying to point a light on the problems that SE seems to refuse to acknowledge.
Stir up the hornets nest enough and maybe, just maybe, they'll at least say something.



I do believe you are misunderstanding the cooldown idea.

It's not a cooldown from when you purchase to when you can relinquish.
It's a cooldown from when you relinquish until it is made available for someone else to purchase.

Would work even better if the cooldown time had a random factor to it.

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Random time between 2-4 days with Moogle demolitions...was suggested in either this thread or another.

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Originally Posted by Avera

Random time between 2-4 days with Moogle demolitions...was suggested in either this thread or another.

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Ha, that was me! Giant moogle wrecking ball with some little guys tootin their horns announcing it for anyone in the ward to hear! It would be glorious, and a crowd pleaser for anyone looking to buy.

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Originally Posted by OliviaJ

Ha, that was me! Giant moogle wrecking ball with some little guys tootin their horns announcing it for anyone in the ward to hear! It would be glorious, and a crowd pleaser for anyone looking to buy.

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Would make my Lavender Beds crawling much more fun...seeing the Moogles come along, a lag spike, and bye bye house.

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

Those people who used multiple accounts to buy up huge tracts of land just with the intent to resell them...

They should have all the associated acccounts banned, and all those plots removed from them.

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Are you for real. So what why should only seller be reported... what about the buyer's, If there was no market then we would not have an issue. It's the same with RMT if no one brought GIL there would be no market I'm sorry you did not get a house not everyone who owns more than 1 house buy's them to flip I know people that have 5 houses some for alt fc's airships so forth and also know that they offer's their personal one's out to people as tenants that could not afford housing missed the chance to get. on my server they were gone in 22 minutes from the servers coming up. it's life yes it may not seem fair but then life is not fair.

Just think apartment soon.

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

First post I found on google...

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ots_in_pf_now/

INcludes a link to pictures of a conversation in the Gm Jail about selling housing.

Though it's not enforced consistantly, as someone posting one of the EU gm's not seeing it as a problem...



There needs to be an official statement on it.

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This guy was a tool like selling load's of houses like just asking to get a slap still did he get banned can you prove this fact he just called to jail because all the people felt upset they did not get a house and he got more than 1. Still though you would think he would have posted on reddit not in Party finder.

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

The act of intentionally buying up housing to prevent others from getting for the ability to charge just to allow them access to it is actually disrupting other player's gameplay.

Which is actually against the Terms of Service.

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And how are they preventing you from buying a house?

What because you was not quick enough to get one?
What you dont want to pay the the price they are asking?
you missed the first round when houses reached the 45 day limit?

To be honest you sound really salty about the whole thing and now you want people banned who own more than one It's a game you are not the only one who did not get a house SE know they need to add more hosing you could get an FC room or wait for apartments.

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Originally Posted by Avera

They are disrupting gameplay in the sense that they are locking us away from content by creating a monopoly and controlling who gets to experience housing and who does not. You can still sell on the MB and do hunts without a problem, but you cant buy a house when someone else owns it and wont sell it reasonably.

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People do this all the time with everything I control quite a few markets on my server with crafting so do many other's, moan at the buyer's not the seller's and most of all SE build a Free Company room wait for apartment's ask a mate that has a house and can you have the basement?