Biggest disappointment as a Scholar.

The meta comes from 1 idea I think.. it's easier to stick to a single role. Rather than have both healers stance dance heavily throughout a fight, it's simply easier, and therefore a more robust strategy to let 1 healer handle the majority of the healing, while the other one DPSes until some extra support is needed.

By design, WHM is more suited to main heal.. not just because a higher sustained healing output, but also because their DPS skills are very many inefficient and all of them can miss. Scholar has DoTs that can't miss, a fairy to free up gcds for DPS, and a more burst/mitigation-based healing toolkit, making it perfect to jump in at specific times. Astro is a bit in between.. I think sharing the healing and DPS role can be more efficient if you run with an AST.. but it's still harder to execute properly (needs more coordination).

I think it's just where people go by what they see. When a WHM is healing, you'll see a tank and/or the party's HP continuously plummetin, only to be bolstered back up by raw healing. Whereas SCH is all about mitigation. So even though they are doing their job just as competently (the job being keeping you alive) it isn't as noticeable visually.

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Originally Posted by Sylari

Why do you think it's a troll?

Someone leveling a healer all the way to 60, grinding out gear so they can raid and then learning that they're just going to be a budget summoner who casts Adlo two or three times sounds like a pretty awful experience.

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Actually, a good scholar will shield more than one or two attacks, but they are not meant to heal all the Day, you know. It's like that, fights now do not requires the two healers to heal all the time, more than half can be solohealed, so why would we help the co healer ? Just to say " oh i'm healing " ? Nah. Plus sch got that OP mana that makes he doesn't run out of it even after having dps for 5 min.
Nah seriously, it is normal that sch are dpsing more than healing. ( If i wanted to be precise, i'd say that they arent healers, they're shielders.)

You can do this with any healer, try again.

I like how most replies in this thread completely misses the point OP was trying to make. Anyways, I think they need to either increase Raid damage to give healers something to do, or lay down the nerf bat on healer dps so that it's no longer worth the mp to throw out dps. Especially since Yoshida repeatedly stated he doesn't want healers to have to dps.

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Originally Posted by ashwich

I like how most replies in this thread completely misses the point OP was trying to make. Anyways, I think they need to either increase Raid damage to give healers something to do, or lay down the nerf bat on healer dps so that it's no longer worth the mp to throw out dps. Especially since Yoshida repeatedly stated he doesn't want healers to have to dps.

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People just don't want to have their precious DPS meta disturbed. I honestly think if SE tried to change it the resulting uproar would be too massive. Scholars would actually have to heal for once!

Personally I think the fairy needs another nerf and boss damage needs a buff.

I love how the people talking about nerfing and gutting an aspect of the general healer's kit don't raid at all. If you have a problem with the game's design, maybe this isn't the game for you.

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Originally Posted by MidnightTundra

I love how the people talking about nerfing and gutting an aspect of the general healer's kit don't raid at all. If you have a problem with the game's design, maybe this isn't the game for you.

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except people who don't raid wouldn't even know about this problem lol

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Originally Posted by Malmstrom

You can do this with any healer, try again.

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Pretty much. Its funny how the majority of the community only accepts SCH as the dpsing healer.

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Originally Posted by KiraKarea

It's absolutely clear that the main reason SCH is able to be DPSing as much in current content is because the healing/shielding requirement.

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BCoB, SCob, and FCoB were much, much more healer intensive on release than any current content has been so far, based on what I've seen and heard from FC mates. Regardless, Scholar has been a glorified DPS since at least 2.1 judging by posts I've seen. I personally became aware of it around 2.3ish, but it seems to heave been around for far longer, while Warrior was pretty much always tanking in FCoB. SCoB really had no need for a second tank, thanks to all the solo tank strats at the time.

The whole glorified DPS thing got super solid because of Gordias' high dps check and how easy one healer can deal most of the healing output with few help.

is just to maximize potential of healers. but by all mean, sch can solo heal pretty decently as well. I have solo healed sep ex. and part of M1S (cuz whm died and i didn't have swift). there is planning involved, consider how much atherflow u need to save up to use certain skill. You also have to understand that sch it not "as" strong in group healing, but their strength is in damage mitigation(a support type healer).

Huh? No strategy, no planning, can't salvage stuff..? The only reason SCHs gets to dps harder than the main healer is because of strategy AND planning. Knowing when something went wrong and shit is about to go down is the sch life. Be scared when your sch starts healing outside of the obligatory shields/mitigation, because that means something didn't go according to plan and someone fucked up.

Well, I love my job as Scholar o.o

Today trial roulette gave me Ravana. Other healer (white mage) was knocked off the arena and I had to soloing, but success.

Anyway, I do not know about raid of 8 people. I never did or will do that.

Based on the first post and one of OP's posts on the first page, all I have to say is this:
I would HAAAAATE to have OP as my co-healer. :| Or any of the SCHs they've "surveyed".

And I though AST had earned a reputation for attracting the most bads of the three healers...

SCH was never designed to be a pure healer in the first place, but a complimentary counterpart to the (at the time) only Healer in the game. WHM already had the raw, reactionary-type pure healer role covered so SCH went in a different direction with a toolkit designed to cover what WHM couldn't do, and vice-versa. The extent of the DPS element you see with the Job is obviously a situation SE didn't account for (neither is one they can really do anything about at this point), yet ironically it adds extra to the role. Funny that, one of the best Jobs in the game and it came about from what SE has since conceded as being a failed experiment.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

SCH was never designed to be a pure healer in the first place, but a complimentary counterpart to the (at the time) only Healer in the game. WHM already had the raw, reactionary-type pure healer role covered so SCH went in a different direction with a toolkit designed to cover what WHM couldn't do, and vice-versa. The extent of the DPS element you see with the Job is obviously a situation SE didn't account for (neither is one they can really do anything about at this point), yet ironically it adds extra to the role. Funny that, one of the best Jobs in the game and it came about from what SE has since conceded as being a failed experiment.

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Cloud Strife was also a "failed experiment".

I know, not quite the same thing, but it still makes me question SE definition of failure and success.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I know, not quite the same thing, but it still makes me question SE definition of failure and success.

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You're better off questioning whether it's actually a Square-Enix statement or someone pretending to be some Square-Enix representative and making their own statements as if it's Square-Enix's

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

You're better off questioning whether it's actually a Square-Enix statement or someone pretending to be some Square-Enix representative and making their own statements as if it's Square-Enix's

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True. Very true. But how many times between XI and XIV has SE come out and said, "Yeah, our bad". Not necessarily in those words, but certain patch updates and upgrades are definitely a testament to that. I started after the 3.1 patch and I have no idea how some of the frustrations were before, but I read about them here.

When I saw the comment about SCH, I immediately wondered what is wrong with it. But I started this game with SCH as is, not as it was, or someone's perception of the job as so. Basically, I fail to see that the job has become something other than what SE intended. If anything, it started out indifferent, and they fixed it. Again going back to our perception vs theirs :p

this topic is rather silly. If they made the healing requirements higher scholar would just suddenly become a, and I quote, "real healer"? Fight designs DON'T dictate your role and core fundamentals of a job.

As others have mentioned its designed to dps since it branches off a dps class first (with heals as a secondary). Yes its labeled as a healer, but its a hybrid job that isn't designed to be just a pure healer. If some how the meta changed or the next expansion came in where scholar was the worst healer to bring in raids, I'm fairly confident what other off healer would come would still be dpsing regardless. Yes its branded/joked as a "second rate dps" because its toolset and mp sustain is really strong, but at the end of the day

you are still healing.


though since you certainly aren't raiding as a scholar and/or show that you have proper knowledge of how scholars actually work based on your post, I probably shouldn't have engaged in this.

Thank you GameolayZero for being soooo right in your post. :)

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

You're better off questioning whether it's actually a Square-Enix statement or someone pretending to be some Square-Enix representative and making their own statements as if it's Square-Enix's

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Hardly pretending to be a SE rep, but this was a cute comment. Got a chuckle from me at least.

With the dev-admitted balancing issues that stemmed from it, to the introduction of 'Advanced Jobs' (with no base class) as their direction going forward, it doesn't take much to conclude that the 1 Class -> 2 Jobs concept is something they want no parts of going forward. Perhaps calling it a 'failure' was too strong, but it's certainly not something they deemed successful enough to persist with as a template for future Jobs either.

On top of that, Yoshi's comments on how he'd rather release individual Jobs as opposed to having branches of existing ones can be seen as enough of an indication on how they feel about the dual Jobs matter.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Cloud Strife was also a "failed experiment".

I know, not quite the same thing, but it still makes me question SE definition of failure and success.

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If it's not the same thing, then there's no point making the comparison.

A closer comparison would be how MCHs story wise aren't seen as a strong/serious discipline in Ishgard but in actual raid settings are the opposite. However, the perception of MCH in Eorzea, like Cloud to Shinra, is part of the Jobs background, and nothing to do with their perception from a player/dev standpoint. The 'failure' in SCHs is not in how they work in gameplay/raid settings, but in how as part of the 1 Class -> 2 Jobs concept they're part of the issues you get with dual/hybrid Jobs, which from a dev perspective is more trouble than it's worth to deal with hence we have 'Advanced Jobs' now.

Ok, I can understand some points. I love playing SCH because my pet is such a reliable healer, and I can do more than healing and partylistXIV by dpsing. I also love playing AST for its buff play style. When my AST gets pair with SCH, I immediately know I would be the main healer for the fight. That said, I've been seeing some SCHs that refuse to help healing when fight gets ugly, and it is absolutely frustrating. There will be time embrace is not enough, and I would expect a SCH to do some heal. Some SCH would only adlo tank, then throw everything else back the WHM/AST. I really can't stand this kind of mentality.

The most important thing is SCH has fairy's heal. If SE remove embrace from fairies, leaving only buff utilities (doubt they dare), Noct AST could outshine SCH anytime. All three healers can do decent dps, but since SCH has fairy as healer, SCH is able to dps 95%-100% of the fight. I would rather have an actual 5th dps in raid if the SCH only cares about dps.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

No strategy, no planning, if things go tits up you don't even have the healing power to salvage the raid, you just roll over and die.

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LOL

Scholars rely heavily on strategy and planning. they're a very pro-active healer. They don't react to the damage the party takes they anticipate and mitigate it.
if you play scholar reactively then yeah you're going to find things hard and feel weak in comparison to other healers. but if you play pro actively i'd say they're pretty damn strong.

yeah psykik might only heal for 5-6k which might feel weak after a tank eats an 18k tank buster. but if you're pro-active you can often mitigate 7-8k of that incoming damage before it hits. meaning you just don't need the big heals a whm has or anything like that.

and if crap does hit the fan using imdominbility and emergency tactics with succor is a pretty decent burst of aoe healing especially with imdomnibility being instcast.

but scholars are a very pro-active job. it's not so much about healing damage it's about preventing it in the first place.
which if you're doing then the other healer shouldn't have as much healing to do thus can also contribute to the dps or whatever.

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Originally Posted by Priya

Yes, I still DPS as a healer; I follow the meta even though I wish SE would change it: It's on SE to either create raid fights that require constant healing or rework their healer classes in such a way that healers can contribute in other meaningful ways that aren't DPS-based.

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This is Funny. not because I disagree because as a scholar/healer I do agree with it.

it's funny though (personally at least) because as a Paladin I want to be able to mitigate more damage and shrug off those big tank buster hits which means I need less healing...

I want my cooldowns to have more impact. at present I often don't feel they do... the difference between using a cool down on a tank buster and not Is only a couple of thousand hp in some cases. hardly noticeable. the number of tanks I see just eat big ass hits without cooldowns. because they have so little impact on an encounter.

ive often referred to an old 1.x skill called aegis boon. where using that at the right time meant you could survive a 4k+ tank buster even if you only had 400hp. but using at the wrong time meant you were dead even at full hp. i'd love to see skills like that come back. at first I thought bulwark was when I saw it's description. but it just guarantees a standard block it doesn't actually mitigate the next attack.

My biggest disappointment as a Scholar is that the degree is worth squat in today's economy.

Goodness gracious, reading through this thread was a pain.

I feel that one major misconception needs to be cleared up right away. Some people here keep perpetuating the myth that Scholars were designed as a Pseudo-DPS Supportish off-healer from the very beginning, and I must say that that is factually incorrect. So let me enlighten you all to exactly how things came to be the way they are now. I've noticed that a lot of the people spouting out this myth have also mentioned they started playing 2.5 or later, so a brief history lesson is in order.

After the fall of 1.0, but before the beta of 2.0 development was really weird. Yoshida had already proven himself a capable director after almost salvaging 1.0, and after being given free reign a lot of strange things happened. Arcanists was data-mined as early as 1.2 and at the time was a trap-master using a mechanical staff to function as a Support (complimenting Bard who was originally planned as a Support as well). Sometime after the ARR sight went up and it was revealed that Arcanist had been completely reimagined as a Pet class with branching paths.

Fast-forward to 2.0, and we have Scholar. Back then people drastically undervalued the class because the community couldn't understand shield mechanics and believed that micromanaging a pet while trying to heal would be too difficult. That being said, Scholar was always designed as a more tecnical healer. Whereas White Mage could solve all of their problems by using big heals, Scholar's were required to think about how to use their abilities. It wasn't hard, especially after people started realizing how overpowered Supervirus was at the time (SCH+SMN could have 100% uptime on Supervirus, effectively nerfing every boss in the game's damage output and trivializing healing)

But more important than that, fights were designed different. Take for example Garuda Extreme. Garuda would summon two adds who needed to be kited away from each other. This mechanic forced split-heals between the tanks. Titan had his Gaols that often forced solo-healing, but it was also no secret that the best way to survive his jumps or his stomps was with a pre-casted succor chased by a Medica. Ifrit had an entire mechanic dedicated to healing, and it was actually challenging at moments. Caduceus also had a tank-split mechanic that required dual healing.

During these early days, Scholar was regarded as the "Tank-Healer" and White Mage as the "Party-Healer". People had begun to catch on to Scholar's DPS potential by this point, but the general consensus was "Not in my party. I want you to keep me alive" It wouldn't be until SCOB that Scholar DPS really took off as something normal, and even then WHM couldn't really solo-heal most content without tons of amazing gear. This was mostly caused by a shift in encounter styles though. The Devs had moved away from consistent raid-wide damage and moved onto less-frequent but bigger hits. The game was less about consistently performing your job well and instead moved on to "remember to press that button or everyone dies." Essentially, as time went on; Healer checks became less important. Gordias sort of changed that back to how things used to be, but then the fans complained that it was too hard and we ended up with the comparatively piss-easy Midas.

Now that the History lesson is over let's go with some more modern proofs that Scholar was never intended as the "DPS Healer".

1) Scholar's Kit was changed to give them more influence as a Healer. 4/5 abilities are related to Healing, and Lustrate was changed to make it so that we were forced to drop Cleric's in order to heal properly.

2) White Mage's have actually always had comparable DPS to Scholar, it just wasn't sustainable. With the addition of Aero III and Stone III, they actually have higher DPS than us, but it still isn't really sustainable for any period of time.

3) Scholar doesn't even get Cleric's by default. Checkmate atheists.

4) SSS gives White Mage dummies more HP than Scholar's, because even the Devs know WHM has superior DPS. This actually reinforces point 2.

5) As others have said, the best way to maximize raid-wide DPS is for both healers to do damage. Referencing point 2 again, if a Scholar takes over the majority of the healing to allow White Mage time to DPS you'll notice massive gains. The trick is to swap back before the WHM starts experiencing MP issues and/or whenever it's time to reapply Dots. My group had achieved this seemingly hard balance by simply calling out "Dance". When we say Dance, we swap stances and do our thing.

TL;DR: Scholar's were not "designed" as a Pseudo-DPS Support/Off-Healer. They were designed as a full healer. The "Meta" exists people suck at this game. I put groups that think Scholar's should 90% DPS in the same boat as people who had to beat Ramuh using Titan-Egis. Read: Garbage. If you need proof that the Meta is inefficient, just look at FFLogs.

My alt job is a 60 sch and I like how I never run out of mana compared to the other healing jobs, sch is pro-active like someone said, maybe some people just don't like books as weapons, or they just want to complain.

My 220 ish sch does fine in normal content and with decent piety and crit I can actually spam aldo + stoneskin on a tank if I felt like it.

Sch is a good healing job and has the best dps of the 3 and the most mitigation of the 3.

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Originally Posted by Sabeta

The "Meta" exists people suck at this game. I put groups that think Scholar's should 90% DPS in the same boat as people who had to beat Ramuh using Titan-Egis. Read: Garbage. If you need proof that the Meta is inefficient, just look at FFLogs.

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I had a proper counter-argument to each of your statements until I read this. I'll go tell Elysium that they are doing it wrong and that they are "garbage". Brb.

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Originally Posted by Gameplayzero

I had a proper counter-argument to each of your statements until I read this. I'll go tell Elysium that they are doing it wrong and that they are "garbage". Brb.

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TBF, their DPS is failing at their job of supplying enough DPS to down the boss, whether it's due to unoptimized rotations or a complete lack of gear. It is the DPS' responsibility to ensure their properly geared after all. That's why healer DPS is a thing, to cover up for the shortcomings of said DPS.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

TBF, their DPS is failing at their job of supplying enough DPS to down the boss, whether it's due to unoptimized rotations or a complete lack of gear. It is the DPS' responsibility to ensure their properly geared after all. That's why healer DPS is a thing, to cover up for the shortcomings of said DPS.

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.... did you just really equate Elysium's DPS to being "garbage" because the group needed healer DPS to World First A8S......?

I don't think I have any more words at this moment.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

TBF, their DPS is failing at their job of supplying enough DPS to down the boss, whether it's due to unoptimized rotations or a complete lack of gear. It is the DPS' responsibility to ensure their properly geared after all. That's why healer DPS is a thing, to cover up for the shortcomings of said DPS.

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I always though it was because one healer was good enough for a good portion of the fight and the only other option for the off healer was to dps to make runs faster and to possibly push phases. Midas doesn't have dps checks like gordias to where even with great dps everyone had to contribute.

There is just no reason for everyone not to try their hardest in this type of content. I know you don't necessarily want to see eye to eye with this, but it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

.... did you just really equate Elysium's DPS to being "garbage" because the group needed healer DPS to World First A8S......?

I don't think I have any more words at this moment.

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Nope! I said that due to lacking gear, they need their healers to contribute also in order to make the checks when they may or may not need healers to DPS as well if they had the gear. Distinction!

No one really cares if DPS are undergeared after all.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

TBF, their DPS is failing at their job of supplying enough DPS to down the boss, whether it's due to unoptimized rotations or a complete lack of gear. It is the DPS' responsibility to ensure their properly geared after all. That's why healer DPS is a thing, to cover up for the shortcomings of said DPS.

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It is straight up impossible to beat some of the DPS checks in savage without healer help at the gear levels they were at when they acquired world first.

You're basically saying a raid group should wait, practice, and/or get better gear if they can't meet a dps check so their healers can be lazy and not play their classes to their full potential. Which is just plain selfish, and anyone with this mindset should not be playing a healer to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

No one really cares if DPS are undergeared after all.

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This also bothers me, and shows even more than other posts just how little you know about this game, in a raid setting the DPS' gear is the most important factor and serious groups will always distribute loot in a way that the DPS will be favored. If anything, no one cares that a healer is undergeared, because healer is BY FAR the most gear-independent role. Scholars were doing A3S in 180 gear just so they could meld accuracy afterall.

You know so little about how raiding works yet pretend to know so much. Like, I get it, you don't want to do damage as a healer. It's lazy, but it's fine since you don't raid anyway, so just move on.

Sorry if I'm being rude here, but the sheer amount of baseless assumptions and flat out wrong information you post is just a bit mind-boggling.

I like the people who scorn me for not DPSing up to their standard as I heal them through duties. They can slam their face into the keyboard all they want, and keep coming up with more shite to throw at me, but the fact of the matter is they kept me around and I kept them alive ;).

I haven't been kicked for poor DPS yet, but even if I do get kicked, well, I hope they have a healer friend on deck, or else they just screwed their whole run, assuming it's not a raid where other healers can pick up the slack.

They'd be stuck waiting, and I'd get to join another run almost instantly, because healing is life in the fast lane.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7343/2...e4e320c9_o.jpg

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Pffft. Well, that's amusing.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Discipline priest passive converts damage into healing and they spent all their time DPSing and still do to this day.

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AFAIK Not really. As of today the strategy is to blanket the raid with bubbles and use situational heals. There is something planned for disco priests being a hybrid on Legion but as of today its the most brain-dead healing class available since you can top numbers by just spamming bubbles. Its also annoying for other healers because if there is no much damage there isn't work left to the other healing classes.

Now back to FFXIV I was one of these who was attracted to the class only to discover they were akin to support role. Luckily I've leveled 2 classes in parallel (its easy with those sweet queue times). I don't dislike SCH but I want to heal.

I'm still a new player and haven't decided which job should I focus on but as someone coming from WoW SCH is fun but still a bit uncomfortable.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

You're basically saying a raid group should wait, practice, and/or get better gear if they can't meet a dps check so their healers can be lazy and not play their classes to their full potential. Which is just plain selfish, and anyone with this mindset should not be playing a healer to begin with.

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why is it even possible that a healer can contribute to damage while undergeared in the hardest content of the game?

I pretty much healed midas 4 on my own as a scholar because the white mage, who I had to keep raising, spent most of her time taking a lay down. I've played all healers and scholar is by far my favourite.

As a Scholar, I don't care what other people say. I may DPS, I may not. That's my decision to make. If I wanted to DPS all the time, i'll swap out my soul to Summoner. I play Scholar because I like the proactive healing. At first, it was the last healer I thought I would have played because I was prejudice and thought the Fairies looked gay. Now, I love them. I've done some pretty funny things with the job, including going into a low level sync dungeon and letting my Fairy do all the work, just to see if I can.

My first character on FF14 was an ARCANIST/SCH.

With that said, after reading this thread, I can say that the OP did not learn how to become a good SCH. Scholars are the most flexible class of healers, they are good DPS and very good healers. IMHO though the WHM is the most powerful of all healers in terms of raw healing power. Can't beat the WHM at that. However, the WHM does not have the mitigating power that SCH does, nor do they have pets, or excellent DPS skills. When you think about it, the SCH not only has great spells/skills to enhance your changes of success; it also offers you the possibility to significantly weaken the enemies you are fighting; it simply brings the best of two worlds into the mix.