FOOD FOR THOUGHT: Will Red Mage be just like astrologian? A fusion between SMN & Blm.

Final Fantasy Dimensions didn't have Mystic Knight or Rune Fencer but it had Red Mage with Spellblade, which had the skills you'd associate with the former. Ensorcelling your sword similar to how NIN does with poisons to modify the additional effects of your oGCDs could be neat for RDM and I sincerely hope they add the Enspells to RDM considering they're in the game and many, many mobs use them already.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Final Fantasy Dimensions didn't have Mystic Knight or Rune Fencer but it had Red Mage with Spellblade, which had the skills you'd associate with the former. Ensorcelling your sword similar to how NIN does with poisons to modify the additional effects of your oGCDs could be neat for RDM and I sincerely hope they add the Enspells to RDM considering they're in the game and many, many mobs use them already.

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Well you are right, i just hope thats not all it does if implemented.

If they wanted to put it in this game properly, they'd have to break out of their silly dps/healer/tank stuff. How can they make a class that can melee, cast some black magic..and heal a bit. Who would want that in their PT, when each role in the game really has a set in stone place. It is not a tank, its not a nuker, its not a full DD and its certainly not what you want to rely on for heals. If every fight forces 2 healers, what would rdm do? Just ignore their cure spells?

If there is a BLM in the PT..why nuke? BLM can just out nuke you anyway. And lastly..this game is not known exactly for its friendly fights. For some reason there is no such thing as "winging it" if the tank goes down or someone else does, and allowing recovery. So again...RDM would never have a chance to tank.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

If there is a BLM in the PT..why nuke? BLM can just out nuke you anyway. And lastly..this game is not known exactly for its friendly fights. For some reason there is no such thing as "winging it" if the tank goes down or someone else does, and allowing recovery. So again...RDM would never have a chance to tank.

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IDK ive saved many wipes by raising healers as a smn. And what you speak about yes, game design flaws theres many instances that could be implemented where using side resources can prevent a wipe, clutch, or as you call it "winging it"

I honestly dont think you read any comments from any of what people have been stating.
Lets get this straight, you dont need a bard or machinist in any serious raid comp cause blm can nuke, you dont need ninja cause drg and mnk can out dps them, wait a second - whats...whats this that even if all of us are arguing role type are in agreement of?

wait you mean they CAN make a tank/dps/healer that has a decent amount of desirable utility to be wanted by a serious raid comp? Thats possible?

2 days after ninja came out and warriors were actng like we started the game with goad and they never had to live without it,
youre saying red mage couldnt bring something new thats that good to be desirable?

^ Nope, a RDM cannot fit in this game if it stays true to the FF roots of what a RDM is. If it is changed heavily however...of course.

SMN was changed, the SMN job in this game is fine if it was labeled something else...but I am sorry, it is NOT a Pet Class as it was supposed to be (see the 1.x player polls) it is a poison mage. It certainly does not feel like I am summoning forbidden beings to do my bidding. I am doing all the work with dots while the pet just sits there and shoots.

Who said anything about not needing bard or machinist? I don't get what you are trying to say. A bard fits in because its a poor support class. It can keep its own with damage. Bard in XIV is not the same as Bard in other FF. In every other FF it was support and it was good at it...with pretty poor damage. It shined with its PT buffs. You would never put a bard in for a damage roll..lol and here we are in XIV, that's what it is.

Let me ask this: Is there any other class who can heal besides WHM, AST and SCH...and if so are they an acceptable healer and why would you bring them over a WHM AST or SCH? Has there every been an instance in an ex primal or savage raid where you could survive without a WHM/AST/SCH healing? Look, besides in face roll content there is no spot for a job that is "mediocre" at all things in this game. So therefore, no they simply cannot stay true to what a RDM in FF is if it was in this game.

However, DRK is a tank so anything is possible? But still, DRK still feels..like a Dark Knight in some ways. Maybe I am close minded in this sense but I really do not see how a job that is a jack of all trades can fit in XIV. They would have to change it drastically how they changed DRK...and you know what will happen with that. Pitchfork time lol.

Have you ever saved any raids when they were relevant raising as SMN? It is impossible...if one person makes a mistake, not even DIES then its over. So of course in face roll content I, too have raised countless people...I am talking about fights like extremes, raids, etc. Not Crystal Tower and dungeon runs....:/

In a literal sense, your statement is right. But that does not mean things like our suggestions and visions on how it would work in any given role, without destroying it completely are invalid. Take scholar for instance, all it ever did was -analyze- who would have ever imagined it fitting as a powerful healer that comes from a DPS class by the way? Sure, give it only blizzard 2, fire 2, and cure 2(oh wait that might be pretty damn effective), actually since its literal well give it fire 3 blizzard 3 and medica as well. and since ts half melee only 2 combos. now fill the other 20 or so skills with whatever, a defensive cd, a bunch of whatever utility you can. Yeah i can see it not working out, a blm has a better nuke. Now -what if- we dont give them straight up blm/whm skills, they get some new abilities with the ability to crossclass thm/cnj? even some skills like dia that havent been used....thats what these threads are about, not that only level 3 black and white magic means it cant be placed in this game ever or feel like a rdm(like a drk to you still feels like a drk)

Now I'm s purist at heart, but realistically i know there are things in game like the trinity, and also lore putting jobs into place in what works in this games immersive environment. My thoughts are that the war of magi completely quash any idea of someone using both conjury and thaumaturgy in its purest sense. But that to me, doesnt mean that someone who has been able to tap into and culminate, not master both types of magic restorative elemental/destructive alteration, cant simply have their own abilities that encompass the duality of both(hmm doublecast) maybe they havent mastered thaumaturgy to achive umbral ice, but with some water conjury they can place the status(mp recovery) onto either themselves or someone else, as a one time use cooldown(like goad but mp) Ive thought how implementation can work for a long time, even with road blocks like cnj must eliminate void magic users*HW BLM quest line). The devs can do whatever they want to, but implementing a red mage that feels like one, isnt that far off when you read threads and the actual ideas on how to do it.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

How can they make a class that can melee, cast some black magic..and heal a bit.

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Like this.

I still don't understand why it has to do everything in order to be called a hybrid. You can have a hybrid focus on a particular role while also bringing utility via other trades. Nukes could easily be ranged abilities for a red mage or strong skills that are best used mid-combat (provided mechanics allow it). Heals could easily be utility rather than a main purpose.

The best way I can see them making Red Mage is similar to how Enhancement Shaman and Retribution Paladin are in WoW. Melee that adds in instant nukes and have off heals/support available, but weaker and/or restricted by cooldown. I'm not sure why it's so hard for people to grasp that basic concept. Now that I think about it, Ninja pretty much does this as it is, but in a more selfish sense.

For example of Enhancement Shaman in WoW (at least in Warlords of Draenor and before): They had melee abilities that tied in magical damage, the procs from meleeing and melee abilities reduced the cast time of, what would normally be, a hard cast spell for each stack of the proc and could make the spell instant and empowered. This worked for nukes and heals. They also had utility spells to buff/debuff your allies/enemies.

Not saying for SE to carbon copy them, but that is a good template to work from for something like a Red Mage. I'm sorry, I'd rather not have Red Mage delegated to the back line when most cases of Red Mage have been front line. Their iconic weapon is a sword/rapier for crying out loud. I loved many things about FFXI but RDM being primarily a back line caster was NOT one of them.

I think there is a high chance of rdm being ranged magic dps with support magic. We have 2 ranged dps 2 ranged magic dps, 3 tanks, 3 healers, 3 melee dps. Although I personally would like them to be a tank or melee/magic dps.

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Originally Posted by ZeratoTyrael

I'm not sure why it's so hard for people to grasp that basic concept. Now that I think about it, Ninja pretty much does this as it is, but in a more selfish sense.
I'm sorry, I'd rather not have Red Mage delegated to the back line when most cases of Red Mage have been front line. Their iconic weapon is a sword/rapier for crying out loud. I loved many things about FFXI but RDM being primarily a back line caster was NOT one of them.

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I dont know why it is either, there are so many ideas to keep it preserved while fitting in this games system. All i ask for is something more than a backline non moving turret, something thats stuck on the bosses butt 100 percent of the time, or something thats stuck getting punched in the face. any combination of the two, at this point would be nice and refreshing and bare bones redmage could offer it, even before we get into the big details

I don't really see how this would work? They don't really offer any specific utility like the healers do, unless it just turns out to be like, a black mage with a pet.

Maybe you should have read the thread properly.
Basically we are already lots of steps after the idea of it being a fusion.
So the thread name is a bit wrong by now i guess :D

Or at least irritating ^^

red mage imo has no place in the current game same as samurai. there is absolutely no logical or lore reason, which i can think of atleast, to add any of these two jobs. what the game needs is jobs that utilise blunt damage especially a tank. though im personally cheering for beastmaster to be added

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Originally Posted by jack891

red mage imo has no place in the current game same as samurai. there is absolutely no logical or lore reason, which i can think of atleast, to add any of these two jobs.

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Lore-wise: Samurai can get brought in via anything related to Doma and its refugees. That's the easy part.

Red Mage is in a tough spot because Ishgard with its gothic/medieval aesthetic would have been perfect for RDM.

What Duelle said, samurai can fit into Doma's lore.

Maybe Red Mage can be ala mhigan, I mean they came up with pugilism which suggests they have a very melee-based martial doctrine. Maybe they forced their mages to fight on the front lines too, giving them a shield and rapier and saying 'go heal lol'.

Also, the monk AF has a feather on its headgear!

Jack said, that there would be no reason for either samurai or red mage.
Also that the game would need some blunt weapon tank.
But if you take these both things together , then i have to disagree. The whole reason behind classes is to give players some more choice for their playstyle , and then its just wrong to say "the game has no place for x an y ".
I dont say that it does not need a blunt weapon tank, but i say it is not my playstyle.
Basically you could run final fantasy also with 4 classes and leave the rest out, if you are saying that it has no room for these classes, because it is just not your personal playstyle. I dont know if you understand what i am trying to say.
But you also did not say as of why they have no place in ff.

So now that its clear that it is only about aesthetics and filling the game , then comes the question behind if things fit. And like the others already stated, there is various possibilities to fit it in. They just need to pick one. Maybe even things we cant think of , because we dont know what in terms of story will be added.

Concerning the aesthetics and playstyle of samurai and redmage i have to say that i like them both and i know many that feel the same way. so i do think that they definitely have a place in the game, if developers put them in ^^

PS my preferance still is redmage, especially if it gets into the direction of directly combining magic with swordskills, like enflame and stuff. In mobious final fantasy there are also various attacks that fit this theme, maybe one also can look at these for more inspiration.

pps , sry for the wall of text ^^

regards Solaiel

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Originally Posted by Griffey

What Duelle said, samurai can fit into Doma's lore.

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so why not wait til we go to doma to add samurai? Would make more sense

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Originally Posted by jack891

so why not wait til we go to doma to add samurai? Would make more sense

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Who says we won't? We have a load of hints we will be goin east come 4.0 and most likely fighting off the Garlean empire.

Spoilers for NIN job quests

We know from that the Garleans employ ninjas from Doma so it's not a stretch that they would have some samurai too.

Perhaps there are some samurai from Doma as part of the Garlean resistance so maybe one of them teaches you the job, if we don't go all the way to the Far East.

Anyway it's all just pure conjecture at this point, and it's off topic.

True its all speculation anyway, sorry if i pulled this thread off topic abit. Just feel there are better choices of jobs that could be added in 4.0. I still would love to see both jobs in the game but not right now

Well, if its lore wise , then there still is plenty of room for the developers to add stuff hinting to and making place for these jobs.
We are getting main story quests soon after all ^^

So basically there is less to worry about that when it comes to new classes.
The more important question is how they would feel and differentiate between other classes.
At least thats what i think . :)

I think they'll just fuse it with Mystic Knight/Spell Fencer as a DPS and call it a day. It'll wind up maybe a little like NIN, BLM, and SMN in various ways, doing melee combos and a few spells, enchanting its weapon (astral/umbral/3rd element like mechanic) so it gets by with INT main stat and no stancing, and offers a lot of utility from healing/raise to single target resource recovery to vulnerability inflictions and other debuffs.

There was something mentioned in the fanfest that made me think about all the theorycrafting going on on RDM and the upcoming classes.

"-Revamped battle system to go with new actions
-Additional Skill System to be overhauled, with skills shared by roles instead of jobs, and can choose from shared role ability options.
-Reassessment of unused/ineffective actions."

So... What if... "What if" Rdm is not about if it will be Dps, Tank or Healer but... How will the abilities will work with each role? If they give it multiple roles, of course.

Edit: On second thought, maybe i am overthinking it.

Battle System adjusted. Pruning/merging abilities and simplifying rotations because we made it too hard and too many buttons.


Cross class skill system is being over-hauled. Now cross class skills will be pulled from skill lists that are roled based: Tank/Healer/DPS cross class skill categories and there will be a shared role one for skills that don't fit or need to cross between roles (example Swiftcast needed by casters and healers).

Yep, overthinking it.

I said nothing, sorry for the lapse... I should go to sleep.

I'm personally hoping for a melee range dps in the vein of brd/mch. More utility.

If they're going to make a mage tank - Blue makes about 1000x more sense for that.

I guess they could also be an off healer... I'd rather see something like Chemist as our fourth healer though. And they're having enough problems properly balancing 3 healers - and have for over a year now. But sometimes threes a crowd and fours a party.

I think a lot of this is just them stepping away even further from the class system, which they should, it's part of why 1.0 failed.

It will just be a melee healer. Dang, and I wanted Samurai to take that spot...

The ONLY thing I can even consider for Red Mage is the fact its BOTH a Black magic and White magic user. That's NEVER changed from what I know.

So that leads me to speculate it will borrow mechanics from each. something akin to a cleric stance for melee/ranged (sword and spells, respectively),
AND/OR
Perhaps having a stacking buff like astral fire/umbral ice in the same vein? having spells hit harder(or double casting), and needing to use your sword to regen lost MP?

The main issue I see with Red Mage fitting into the trinity as it is, is that we don't have any strictly "hybrid" Jobs. Red Mage, if it even is, would be the first. So we don't have any foundation for how the system could even handle it, sadly. This leads me to think that It will be EITHER a Healer designed for cleric stance for it's DPS nuance, OR a DPS with healing abilities that wont have much use.... like SMN.

Or SE can throw a curve ball and make Red Mage a tank out of nowhere. I can't even begin to think how that would work though...

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

This leads me to think that It will be EITHER a Healer designed for cleric stance for it's DPS nuance, OR a DPS with healing abilities that wont have much use.... like SMN.

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Why do people always think that? SMN isn't a bad dps anymore, sure there are players that can't play it, but that doesn't make it a bad class. On a lot of servers people rather take smn's than blm's due to the fact that we make it easier on the healers with not having to stand in every aoe. There have been fights we would of wiped, if we would have gone without a smn and when played correctly we even do a very decent amount of damage, even on single target. We have to stop bashing the poor smn's :)

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

Why do people always think that?

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I think you misinterpreted the post. SMN was mentioned as a recedent of a Magic DPS class with Healing Spells (Physick and Resserection). While The latter is more useful as it ensures a lifeline for if the designated Lifelines (The Healer(s)) die, Physick is mediocre on both SMN and BLM is more useful for Soloing.

The reason is due to Scaling and Stats. The same reason why Cleric Stance is a thing and Why PLD got the highest potency healing spell. The Abilities all scale off a certain Mainstat for DPS (expect PIE, that distinction alone makes it a glorified substat). Because of Cleric Stance switching it with INT, MND is included in this. The general scheme is Tank=VIT, Support DPS=DEX, Melee DPS=STR, Magic DPS=INT and Healers=MND. And as a result of ARC having two Jobs in separate roles and Healers being similar, they have Skills sclaing off two mainstats. INT and MND.

As a result of itemization, this means that a high-level Magic DPS (SMN and BLM) will have more INT than MND, which means they hit harder but their healers are mediocre. A Healer (AST, WHM and SCH) on the other hand would have higher MND, so they get more heath back but due weak DPS, with Clerics being a workaround to that

Indeed, a simple misinterpretation. I was saying a SMN's ability to HEAL was not useful, not that SMN ITSELF wasn't useful. Ressurection is kinda... borderline for me. If I was to choose a SMN for my raid purely because they had physick, my tanks would laugh me out of the room. If I chose a SMN purely because they had a battle rez, I'm sure my healers would have words with me about my faith in them.

SMN are indeed good as a more mobile ranged DPS, but they are not good healers. Thus SMN is a DPS job with healing abilities that aren't much use, as I said.

Moreover, even with my initial vague wording, I still can't see how what I said was "bashing" anyone or anything... huh

SMN battle Ressurection is VERY good for pick up parties where you don't know if the healers can do their job or if the rest of the DPS can keep themselves alive. But yeah, Like Fluffernuff said, in a static group it's only there as a safety measure.

As I said before, I'd like to see Red Mage as a healer. It's the only role right now that can heal and DPS - and adding close range combat as a form of MP management would be AWESOME, not to say that Red Mage can be a great rival to the SCH spot in the party.

If SE is smart, they'll make a completely original job, and stay away from the whole "it can be both WHM and SCH" mess that had AST weaker for 4 patches, and overpowered for this one.

Create a job that isn't borrowing from BLM or SMN. It's a mage/melee crossbreed, the possibilities are fucking limitless, pls dont go for another hybrid mess.

If SE were to allow a purely hybrid job, I just don't know how it would fit into the system we have without it having it's overhaul. While it is by no means confirmed or disproved, let's stick to "We will only get 2 new jobs". ok, 2 new jobs to fill out 3 roles. Red Mage as a pure hybrid could very easily fill in a slot for both DPS and Healing as they have in the past-

Though this causes issues- the first and only pure hybrid for the system. The team would have to figure out how a Healer/DPS would be able to actually fit into the other role... COMFORTABLY (as a hybrid). this means not only competing with the likes of MNK and BLM, but also comparable to healing numbers of WHM or AST in that healing slot. a daunting task indeed. And then to further complicate the point, they have to make this amazing DPS that is a full-fledged healer yet not completely lock out the other full-fledged healers out of their slots.

Failing to walk this fine line results in 1 of 2 outcomes-

1: They simply fail to do enough damage in their role as a Dps because they have to heal. on this same token, they fail to be able to keep up with the demand in healing because they have too many, or are reliant on doing DPS. Thus they fall short of both marks and are simply worse in every category

2: They are able to push the damage of DPS, possibly as much as say... BLM, but can, at the same time, be a 2nd or 3rd... or 7th healer in a group. Why bring healers at all then? you can have an amazing DPS do it instead! Clearly a bit too..... good

because of this, I feel Red mage would strictly be 1 or the other at any given time, but never both- much in the same way a SCH can use a job stone to become a SMN. This is honestly the most likely, but that would be so disappointing, no? I only have the current system to base my speculation on though, as SE is likely to keep that shiny updated battle system close to their chest and behind a $50 paywall.

Just give RDM some kind of sword... or let us pull one out of a book, that looked pretty cool.

I'd like RDM to be a sort of DPS hybrid between using weaponskills and casting magic, kinda like the DRK. Then again, I think BRD already does that, and it has DoTs, too, on top of that, so RDM can't do that. Hm...

i also had an idea for RDM to be all three roles at once but primarily be a dps role but that'll never happen

I imagine Red Mage in my mind as a DPS. The particular trait of RDM maybe should be the possibility to both stay ranged and melee maybe giving him support abilities and lower dps in ranged position and higher dps in melee position.
Guess it would someway work.

Rdm as dps for me..when Ilbred used the sword and enchanted it, it totally reminded me of rdm :) that's how I picture it I guess!

I just saw FFXV: Kingsglaive film a couple of days ago, i got the feeling that the glaives could represent a Rdm. Shortsword/dagger - swordplay with White magic as protección utility and black magic used for offense. I dont know where to put the teleport thing but overall it reminded me of the class.

What do you guys think of that kind of Gameplay/close combat caster?

I "think" that the summoning swords was oficial to the class due to certain npc in the story?

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

When I think of Red Mage I think of Black Mage, White Mage, and a bit of tankiness. Not that poor excuse for a Summoner that resides in this game.

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This is why we can't have nice things and they say shit like "blu will never work" because when they adjust something to place it in the game everyone complains about it stupidly.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

If SE is smart, they'll make a completely original job, and stay away from the whole "it can be both WHM and SCH" mess that had AST weaker for 4 patches, and overpowered for this one.

Create a job that isn't borrowing from BLM or SMN. It's a mage/melee crossbreed, the possibilities are fucking limitless, pls dont go for another hybrid mess.

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Hybrid mess, or dual carbon copy? It's because it has a legacy as a hybrid of sorts that its possibilities are "limitless". Failing to capitalize on that and giving us a NIN remix because "that was one of endless possibilities, and was a new and unique XIV version!!" is no guarantee of interest either. Bar the ambition for making a hybrid who can actually succeed, something that can actually carry the hype the job warrants, and let SE roll it over to yet another 2.5 2-3 step combos with one bound and one free DoT and a few offensive oGCDs or split-resource oGCD system, and it's not that likely to excite anyone. With each iteration, stale only gets staler, while the opportunities for breaking out of that rut only get more rewarding.

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Originally Posted by ckc22

This is why we can't have nice things and they say shit like "blu will never work" because when they adjust something to place it in the game everyone complains about it stupidly.

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Just playing the devil's advocate here, but one could also say we can't have nice things because a section of players will be satisfied enough with it regardless of its quality that SE has no incentive to really push concepts or identity for the job, let alone make significant improvements to gameplay (only to power or balance) later.