Resistances reset after a period of time. You don't have to die for them to go away. I'm not sure the time off the top of my head but I want to say something like 30 seconds or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Warrior does actually have pretty close utility to paladin, though stun locking is actually better than holmgang. While stunlocking one person might be a similar comparison you're looking at 4+ targets to take away from the fight for a max of 9 seconds at a time per player. Holmgang can't match that.
Paladin has Testudo however Paladin also has Divine veil, which they can trigger themselves now.
PLD> War> DRK , Dark knight has.. A heavy, a Damage reduction and a very mediocre stun for utility, they can also annoy casters with ranged attacks easier than the other two.
Paladin has way more utility than you're giving it credit for
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02-28-2016, 08:47 AMCynric
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02-28-2016, 01:05 PMFebrusThat's true, but I was talking about a full resistance reset.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynric
Unless something has changed in PvP recently and I'm not aware of it (in which case, sweeeeet), resistances don't fully reset as soon as the timer expires. They first reset to their absolute bottom resistance. For stunning, that would be 1(ish) second depending on latency. Even if the Pld waits 30 seconds (I don't recall if this is the real time, either, but for now we'll run with it), they can't fully stun lock that target to a maximum lock of 9 seconds. At best, you're temporarily interrupting them for a second. Then they're free to run off again. Given that snare tactics require the target to stand still and defenseless long enough for the Dps to kill them, a 1 second stun doesn't cut it. That's why I said that War and Pld stuns, both, are an all or nothing stun. The idea is to lock the target and get the kill.
You are correct, though, that War and Pld stuns are different. If we're comparing stuns between the two of them, then Pld's definitely have a better multi-target stun. It can be applied to targets faster than Holmgang. So, with a good Dps team, you can swap to new targets faster. Again, though, this is really only a benefit if the targets are actually dying. If they're not, you're just wasting the stun resistance and won't be able to do anything more than annoy people with it for the rest of the match. That's also being generous, because party Dps is dramatically lower when a Pld is spamming Shield Bash.
Holmgang is not as useful on multiple targets, but it is most certainly a better single target stun, because War's can upkeep their Dps while using it. A target snared by a war's Holmgang + Brutal Swing is far more likely to die than a Pld target who is stun-locked, because the Dps is much higher (especially if the war got the slashing debuff + Full swing up in advance). Again, though, if the target does not die, then the War is put at a disadvantage while they wait for that CD to come back around again.
In the end, is one better than the other? Not really, no. They're just used differently. Given that stun locks tend to fall to: did the target die, yes or no? The overall utility is mostly the same.
Again, this is true; however we're still talking about a trade in utility, not a better utility. Even if we're going to be as generous as possible with the amount of Hp a tank could have, Divine Veil grants roughly a 2k buffer on the party (That's at 20k max Hp and it does not include the Pld). War's make that up in self-healing, no problem. Instead of having a weak shield cast over the party Hp, the healers get one party member who has a dramatic reduction in required healing whenever Bloodbath is up. Further, War's bring additional utility in the form of boosted party Dps. Pld's have no way to increase party dps, at all. War's boost slashing dmg with each use of Storms Eye, on top of dealing their own dmg simply by applying it. There's a trade off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynric
I'm not trying to downplay Pld utility. They have amazing utility, but the idea that Pld's are somehow inherently better than War's in PvP is false. One tank is more defensive. The other tank is more offensive. Does that mean one or the other has "better" utility? No, not really. They just have different utility. Depending on your party composition and personal play style, one might work better than the other, but one is not universally better than the other.
Drk's, on the other hand, I do feel sorry for. Compared to War's and Pld's, their utility is substantially lower. They do, potentially, bring the Highest dps to the field if they are constantly under attack and proc ALL of their oGCD's ... but even with the Heavy Medal Debuff painting a target on their butt's, I don't see this happening. I suppose they can harass Smn's/Blm's with Delirium Blade, and they'd probably make for excellent co-tanks in 8 man matches due to their high burst potential, but they definitely lack stand alone utility compared to War's and Pld's. -
02-28-2016, 01:11 PMSynestra
I might remember wrong but CC resist timer was 60s and it got added to the game when Ifrit HM "stun-locking" was still a thing.
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02-28-2016, 06:45 PMCynricResistance reset at least in my experience after whatever period of time it is goes back to the capability of full duration. I don't know if you were around back when Wolves Den came out but Sleep/Stun/bind/and I think Heavy all work the same way and back then if you got slept three times then later got slept again you were back to the full sleep duration. Same thing goes for stun, I think if you're going by frontlines it'd be harder to judge because by the time the resistance resets someone probably already added resistance back to the target. However in the den I've never had trouble seeing the full duration of my stuns even without the target dying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
As for the utility trade off, I still stand by Warrior being slightly worse than PLD simply due to the fact that Shield Bash is really that good. You can CC the healer, or save your healer by CCing DPS/Tank, much more on demand than Warrior. I don't think Warrior is that far behind but it'll still be slightly worse than PLD imo.
As for DRK... DRK's utility wont come from burst DPS, but from Dark Arts Dark Dance + Awareness + Blind, hopefully the dodging will make them be a little better at medal keeping. Not saying it'l work like that but one can hope DRK will be able to do something at least. -
02-29-2016, 05:25 AMFebrusIt's hard to say, since tagging the same target repeatedly in FL after a reset duration is not easy. They tend to disappear into the mass of frenzied players, and node positions have changed by he time the reset applies. WD would probably be an easier place to test it out in. I have to admit, though, it has been a while since I've played on my Pld in WD, so even I'm not really positive that it still works the same way. I know that in PvE, blind resist resets to it's highest resistance, which is why maximum Pld mitigation rotation stops Flash after 3 uses. Beyond that, there's no point besides aggro. I'm pretty sure Stun works the same way, because, as synestra pointed out, stun locking HM Primal fights was an exploit that SE had to adjust. I assumed it was the same in PvP, but it might not be. Next time I get the chance to try it out in WD I'll give it a shot and see what happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynric
I still think it's a trade in utility, though. What it falls down to is party composition. Pld will probably be the "safe" bet for random teams and solo queues, but in pre-mades the favoured tank will vary depending on what dps you are rolling with. Any team that has a Nin or Drg, or even a Drk or Pld on Co-Tank (assuming 8-man queues use a two tank format), will see more offensive utility out of a War's slash down debuff than they will out of a Pld's defensive stuns, especially given that a Pld's stun lock rotation really is a tremendous loss in party dps.
Drk's DA + Dark Dance + Awareness + Blind works wonders for defensive purposes in FL. I imagine they'll get a lot of use out of it when they're metal hogging in Feast. That is, after there are medals to actually hog. Up until that point, using their Mp draw on Defense would be a waste of potency, because most teams don't attack the highest defensed player first. They go for the squishy guy.
As much as Drk's clearly have the lowest stand alone utility in Feast, I think they'll be pretty fun to play as, because they're Mp management will completely change around half way through the fight. At the start of the match they'll probably want to use their Mp to take advantage of their awesome burst potential, but when they start to collect medals they'll want to keep their Mp for defense. Healers, too, will probably have a similar experience, because they'll be higher priority targets at the start of the match, but less so when the tank/Dps start hogging medals and getting debuffed. Should be pretty fun to see how it works out. -
02-29-2016, 01:04 PMCynricI really don't think the DPS will determine the tank you want. I think the tank you go with would determine the DPS. Example being say you run a Paladin, well you might be better off with Brd/MCH ranged, however if you're running a DRK it'd be better off to have a BLM for sleep as the CC on DRK is very low.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
All in all there will be plenty of viable compositions.
By the way I don't consider 8 mans period at all when I talk about the feast. I only consider the ranked portion of it where comps will be a big deal. 8v8 is indeed forced 2 tank 2 heal, however there afaik either there is no premade 8v8 or its a shared queue , either way it's not really worth talking about in my eyes till it becomes rated as well. -
03-01-2016, 01:46 AMNalienFixing Tar Pit alone would probably solve a few of my issues with Dark Knight in PvP... The Job has no real means to do a bulk "heal" in an emergence (Sole Survivor + Mercy Stroke is great and all, but can't really rely on it...). Warrior has Second Wind, Thrill of War and Equilibrium. Paladin has Stoneskin, Clemency and Divine Veil. Dark Knights options are fairly lackluster...Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynric
I could see the HP drain on Tar Pit kind of being Dark Knights version of Thrill of War, but it is just so damn pathetic... Thrill of War would net me around 2,100~3,500HP, and Thrill of War is AoE to party members... Last I cared to check, Tar Pit would be lucky to even get me 500HP... That's only going to get worse with Feast, too... Heavy is OK for Seize, you can slow a push or retreat. No such utility for it in Feast (though it still has some, just things like an AoE knockback +Stun/buff removal are vastly superior), not with the Sprint adjustment anyway... Then consider the number of people in Feast... I can pretend I can stack the entire 48 enemies I have in Seize for Tar Pit to be amazing (and I'd be insane to suggest that), but 4v4 and 8v8? It's going to absolutely suck. Plain and simple...
What I really don't get is why it's so weak... We have Abyssal Drain, and granted that's fairly weak as well (I'd need to hit what, 10 people for it even to be half as good as Clemency?), but why is Tar Pit so much weaker? It's on a freakin' cooldown! I cannot spam Tar Pit, so why is the HP drain effect on it so damn lackluster compared to Abyssal Drain, which I can "spam"? It makes no sense... I'd love to have Tar Pit as a "Run in, mitigate the damage with the drain, and run out with them all Heavy'd" skill, but the HP drain on it is so pathetic that Heavy is the only thing it really offers...
You know what would be nice? Change it from flat damage up front to something akin to an AoE DoT... Twist being, anyone hit by it is tethered to the Dark Knight, which each tic of the DoT healing the Dark Knight. You can then break the tether by running out of range, though obviously that is going to be harder with the Heavy effect. That could be very interesting, Dark Knight could effectively herd people with such a skill... It would have some solid utility beyond just Heavy... Sort of an offensive Collective Unconscious perhaps... A bubble around the Dark Knight that enemies want to stay out of... If I can still move? Great, that's got some awesome chase potential (which is what Dark Knight really shines at). If I can't? No problem, that can stack up nicely with a lot of other skills (Salted Earth and healer bubbles) and my party can get in the bubble with me to deter melee... -
03-01-2016, 07:57 AMFebrusI agree. To be honest, if it wasn't for the additional burst dmg from having Tar Pit and Carnal Chlll I probably wouldn't even bother swapping my AP points when I play as Drk. Based solely on utility, they just don't have any backbone. Even in FL, I find that I almost exclusively used for dmg, because the situations in which applying a Heavy or a dmg reduction are typically outweighed by the value of actually killing the opponent. Not to mention the fact that, nine times out of ten, your teammates are more likely to waste the utility of a heavy or dmg reduction than they are to take advantage of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
I can't count how many time's I've applied a beautifully positioned Carnal Chill on a healthy patch of ranged dps (I'm talking 5 or more players), only to see my teammates retreat instead of fight. More frequently is when I apply a nice heavy debuff to a couple of stray Dps who are on the retreat, only to have my Dps let them go instead of running them down. If you see that kind of thing enough times you stop caring about trying to use those moves for party utility and just start using them purely for dmg.
I like your idea for Tar Pit ... but instead I'd rather see it changed to a persistent ground AoE. I think it would have even greater utility that way. If it was a persistent (roughly the same time as Salt of the Earth) ground based AoE, Drk's could use it as an area denial, a trap for dropped medals, and a safety guard for healers and heavy medal debuffed players. I think that would work really well for team strategies (Ie: bait kills by having ViP targets stand in the Pit) as well as give Drk's a means of actually self healing by having a DoT that translates to a HoT. -
03-01-2016, 10:53 AMStormriderWell I have never seen 7.5k. But i have seen 6k+ back to back repeatedly. I am sure debuffs and buffs play a role. Aether at least has more then enough Warriors popping multiple 6k fel cleaves when you get into a scrum and have to heal and can't run away.Quote:
Originally Posted by P4X0R10N
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03-01-2016, 10:59 AMP4X0R10N
I like all this talk about tank utility instead of tank dps. The shift in focus will will show how shallow the tanking game is in ffxiv pvp. Can I get a copy/paste of some moba tank/bruiser abilities?
Speaking of which I've always liked Shen's ult from LoL. Maybe give pallies a dash which places a small health shield around allies that the pally dashes through?
Or for warriors, a buff place able on self or others that increases the ap or healing power of the buff-ee by a percentage of damage received? The effect would be still be damage mitigation, because you don't want to buff the enemy, but with a twist.
I dunno. I just want some real tanking abilities I can use every 30 to 40 seconds rather than 2.5 minutes plus... -
03-01-2016, 11:45 PMCynricIt is really terrible. The healing is bad , though the heavy can be good for catching someone in frontlines right after an attunement, or after a stun to finish them off, or to force a purify before full swing. But anything DRK can do the other tanks kind of do better, aside from harass casters to prevent spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
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03-02-2016, 01:01 AMNalienYeah, a ground DoT would work best, though I find the idea of a sort of drain aura very appealing... Not sure there is any precedent for it in game though, would likely be troublesome to implement...Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
I'd actually be incline to swap the effects on the two PvP skills, too... Heavy on Carnal Chill, reduced damage on Tar Pit. Not sure how balanced that would actually be, but a heal and reduced damage stacks up nicely, where as Heavy is much more useful as a ranged skill, more so with the Sprint changes (if someone is running, and I'm next to them, I'll just Sprint as well...). Possibly turn Carnal Chill into a DoT as well, just to reinforce the Scary Terry approach Dark Knight has in PvP; "You can run but you can't hide, b*tch!". Anyone running does have the chance of getting away, I tend to like DoTs in such situations on the off chance the DoT kills them. The total DoT damage would have to be greater than its current potency, though, else you could just kill them outright with it now... If they see Heavy and a DoT? Perhaps they'll waste Purify and I can Sprint + Plunge + Low Blow.
I think the only other skill I can take issue with is Abyssal Drain. It's not bad in Seize, but Seize has plenty of enemies usually stacking nicely... Feast (especially 4v4) will not, and Abyssal Drain will never be worthwhile over a Grit Souleater. At least not from a numbers perspective. Might have some utility if retreating back to spawn can be a sensible move... MP management might be an issue, but that depends on the length of the matches and the size of the map. The recent Darkside adjustment was great (I don't think I've noticed my MP being drained from Darkside alone since, perhaps I'm crazy but the in combat ranged might have been reduced too?) so I'm not too worried about that, though.
I had another look at it last night, and granted this is the base potency/% drain, but ~60HP per person... It's incredibly dumb... Abyssal Drain managed to surprise me with a few 400s, though 200s seem far more common. Well no, 0s are far more common because of Stoneskin/Adlo/etc. Still, they both drop a lot of their utility in Feast, they're only somewhat redeemed in Seize because of the nature of that game. I have more targets and the aim is to push nodes... We can perhaps slow someone picking up medals, but that's about it... Warrior and Paladin can out right knock someone away for the same effect, with an added Stun/buff removal; Much more impressive than the (at best) 480~960 HP Tar Pit can give me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynric
Mythril Tempest (and Holmgang) has some absolutely amazing medal denial, depending on how long they're up. Glory Slash isn't bad either. Tar Pit just sucks. A Warrior of Paladin can see an ally going down, knock the melee away from them, and hopefully deny those medals. Dark Knight has nothing.
Tar Pit would really function better as a "Welcome to Hell" placement for the Dark Knight to either scare medal grabbers away, or to just kill them for grabbing the medals. Perhaps an additional Full Swing effect on it would even make sense. There is plenty they could do with it, either way though, right now I rank it just above Malmsight in terms of "What even is this?". -
03-02-2016, 09:04 AMFebrusActually, the idea I had for Carnal Chill was to draina bit of the targets Tp/Mp. Kinda like when you leave a battery in the cold and it loses power. Same concept. If Carnal Chill affected the Target's Tp and Mp, then Drk's would have a means of effectively throwing an attacking force into chaos by screwing with their Mp and Tp draws and forcing them to use recovery items. Drk's would gain tremendous utility against casters, in particular, which makes sense given that they are already kitted towards magic defense (Delirium Blade/Dark Mind). Having a nice method for chasing is good too, but I think that the utility would be a little too stacked in favour of Seize, given that chases don't typically happen all that much in a smaller arena (not too many places to run to, as it were). Further, if Tar Pit was a ground based AoE, there would be nothing to stop Drk's from popping it behind an enemy in anticipation of their retreat, even in a bigger format like Frontlines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
You're right about Abyssal Drain. It's a can of worms. Sadly, I don't think that there's much that they can do to make it more useful in PvP. It's too situational, and the base dmg would have to be jacked immensely to make it viable in small format fights like Feast ... I just don't see that happening. -
03-02-2016, 09:16 AMNalienCould they not work it similar to Holy/Gravity/Flare? Reduced potency for each additional target. Then we can technically have a stronger 2~3 person drain, with it leveling out to the same numbers overall on larger groups. Always figured that's just how it should have been for PvE even.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
As far as the potency goes, they could always just jack up the % returned. Rather than 100% of damage dealt back as HP, we could have 150% back, for example. Actually, a combination of the two, perhaps? On a single target, you get a larger % back as HP. More targets you add, the less % you get back as HP. It's still a 120 potency on-target AoE, just rather than getting 120 potency heal out of it on a single target, perhaps you're getting 240 out of it, throw in another target and it's a total of 240 potency damage with 360 potency healed. Get to three people hit, and it's 360 potency damage with 360 potency healed, as it is now. IIRC three targets is about where it becomes stronger than Grit Souleater (assuming you're not in Grit for Abyssal, at least).
That said, it doesn't need to be useful in PvP. Plenty of skills aren't, granted most of them are tank/enmity related... -
03-04-2016, 06:41 AMFebrusCould they? Probably, yes. Will they? Not likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
I'm not getting into any technical numbers, but Abyssal Drain's Hp regeneration actually scales quite well in PvE. It functions beautifully for larger mob pulls, because it's utility is actually in dmg mitigation, not flat out self-healing. SE probably does not want to mess around with this, so any adjustments that they made to it would have to be PvP exclusive. The problem with that is that SE has already proven, time and again, that they are reluctant to make changes that would require separate system storage, citing space requirements and system limitations as their number one excuse (this is also, supposedly, the reason we don't have the ability to store our Action Points separately across multiple jobs). They would likely take the same approach here, exactly because of what you said:
This is exactly right. Abyssal Drain is a PvE move designed for enmity and mitigation against a large number of foes. It's specifically used for situations when the tank is standing still and holding the line against multiple targets who are all focused on him/her. Consider when this happens in PvP. Almost never. PvP doesn't work on enmity. Targets move around, there's no organized pulls, and Dps tend to go for the squishy guys before they go for the Tank. The odds of you seeing an entire party of people standing still in the exact same spot so that they can all get hit by AB are astronomical, to say the least. AB just wasn't made for PvP, and SE doesn't really have any particular reason to adjust it so that it functions better in PvP. It would probably be easier for them to adjust Drk's lack luster PvP skills than it would be to adjust PvE skills that don't really have to be used in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
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03-04-2016, 08:37 PMVaeria
Man..really feel for you pvp-career tanks. Pld was crap to begin with (ya..drk too *shrugs*) but to see even teh mighty solo-man 1 army war get dragged down too? That kinda hurts and I dont even touch tankie jobs. Makes me think of the blms and the once mighty flare-bOOm! Sad sad. So I guess this now means: Old war= God/ new war = King, old drk = Yeaah./new drk = ZzZz, old pld = garbage can/new pld = dirt under the garbage can?
Wars were exceedingly fun to fight solo, especially with that rushenroulette FC crit possibility when youre under 50% hp. But now...poo ; ; Hope this doesn't happen to smn too or all the dangerous things will go up in smoke.
But really SE..gimping pld too? iz like...now..not only will they NOT do anything useful over a stun but insteada just not doing damage, their attacks will actually give you hp back! Iz just wrong SE...so wrong ; ; -
03-04-2016, 09:59 PMxxczx
pld is crap https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0qLLHXikSQ
pld was crap -
03-05-2016, 02:32 AMHouston009Lol, what? PLD crap? Are we playing the same game?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeria
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03-05-2016, 02:55 AMAtreusThey're called oGCDs. Spirits, Circle, even Glory Slash contribute to this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Uh no. Resistance lasts 60 seconds from the last successful use for every single CC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
I usually ignore the nonsense you spew, but what..? I gotta hand it to you for your essays, but you need to fact check some more. -
03-05-2016, 04:02 AMFebrusYou might try reading the entire thing before you arbitrarily decide you have a clue what we were talking about. Firstly, the first quote that you're taking out of context was referring directly to War's ability to upkeep their primary Dps (Butcher's Block, Fell Cleaves, etc) while having a target stun locked. Yes, Pld's have a couple oGCD's, but they in no way compare to what a War can do in the same situation. Now, before you get all antsy over that, you should also keep in mind that I never said that Pld was somehow bad or worse off than War in PvP. We were actually talking about comparative utility, which a lot of people seem to think that War's fall way behind on ... which they don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atreus
As for your second out of context quote, congratulations! You just pitched in on something we cleared up several posts ago, and contributed absolutely nothing to the conversation. If you had cared to follow the discussion, you might have noticed that someone already mentioned the 60 second timer, which both I and Cynric already admitted that we could not remember the exact time for. So, what's your point? Pld's still get resisted for a large chunk of time, and see diminished returns for consecutive stuns, even after resist falls off (if the target happens to live that long). I'm pretty sure we cleared that up a while back, along with a pretty solid comparison of how war's stuns compare. -
03-05-2016, 04:33 AMAtreusYea except that's not what you said in the slightest. Hell you even underlined it lol. Furthermore that section of your essay was never addressed by anyone, so gg getting super defensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Oh I read the exchange. Cyrnic was pretty on the money on everything except the 30-second thing, but you kept trying to argue it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It took Nel stating the correct time but it appears to have gone ignored. Aaaalso if one target resists, you move to another that doesn't.
Nael'd it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynric
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03-05-2016, 05:59 AMFebrusOhhhh ... you mean this part right here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Atreus
You know, that part of the quote which almost immediately followed this statement right here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Yup. Funny how it seems like Crynic and I both agreed on that, considering we both said the same thing about it ... That's just weird, right? Maybe it's because it wasn't an argument, so much as a discussion on traded utility between War's and Pld's? You don't suppose that's the case? No, of course not. That can't be. You read the whole thing and clearly understood all the common ground. That's why you brought it up in the first place, right? /sarcasmQuote:
Originally Posted by Februs
To be fair to you, in regards to the first out of context quote you are clinging to, I'll admit that it is a bit of an overstatement. I suppose the quote would have been completely fine by your standards if I had written: "Pld's cannot contribute to dps while stunlocking a target, except for oGCD's." That would have been more acceptable for you, right? Oh, here's an idea, perhaps I could have added in the combined potency of a War's full Fell Cleave burst combo and compared it to those Pld oGCD's as well. That way the statement could have been perfectly clear at illustrating the difference between the two. That would have been good, right? Well, I have to apologize for not doing that, then. I honestly did not think that I would have to go into that much fine detail to explain that there is a massive difference in Pld and War Stun locking dps. That's probably because I honestly did not think that anyone would misunderstand this dramatically. Wonders never cease, I guess.
This is the last response you'll be getting out of me, just fyi. You've made it fairly clear that you're trolling pretty hard, and I probably shouldn't have nibbled on the bait as much as I already have, considering the conversation was settled quite a long time ago. If you want to insist on continuing to misread and misinterpret the previous conversation and then bring up points that have already been well and settled, then feel free to do so. That's your prerogative. Have fun.
This was a pretty funny pun though. Honestly made me chuckle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atreus
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03-05-2016, 11:27 PMSainCheese
Since when is butchers block a dps rotation for warrior, Februs? I've been doing it wrong the whole time?! My life is a lie! Time to reroll and play as some summoner's egi!
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03-06-2016, 03:07 AMFebrusUm ... Since forever?Quote:
Originally Posted by SainCheese
Heavy Swing (150) + Maim (190) + Storms Path (250) Combined Potency of 590
Heavy Swing (150) + Maim (190) + Storms Eye (270) Combined Potency of 610
Heavy Swing (150) + Skull Sunder (200) + Butcher's Block (280) Combined potency of 630
After applying both Maim and Storms Eye, the highest potency combo that War's have is Butcher's Block. I don't play a lot of War, personally, but their typical dps OT rotation should look something like this:
Vengeance + RI -> Heavy Swing -> Brutal Swing -> Maim -> Internal Release + Berserk -> Storms Eye -> Pot -> Fracture -> Heavy Swing -> Fell Cleave -> Infuriate -> Fell Cleave -> Maim -> Storms Eye -> Brutal Swing -> Heavy Swing -> Skull Sunder -> Butchers Block
I took this right off the Tank forums, in case you were wondering. There's also a rotation that has triple Fell Cleaves by using an additional Butcher's Block combo for even more dmg, but you have to time your opening a lot more carefully. It's a pain in the ass, so I don't think a lot of War's go for that one. The point is that, after your initial Fell Cleave burst rotation, BB is rotated regularly as part of the War OT Dps rotation. So long as Maim and Storm's Eye is up and Infuriate is down, BB is a potency gain over Storms Eye / Path.
This is actually why there was a lot of griping about tank enmity after 3.0. It doesn't make a difference in PvP, obviously, but in PvE War's could strip aggro off of Pld's and Drk's while in the OT spot because their highest potency OT rotation uses an enmity combo for Dps. Pld's and Drk's were being forced to nerf their own Dps by using RoH or Power Slash more frequently (instead of Royal Authority or Delirium Blade/ DA-Soul Eater) just to hold hate. The complaints were massive, hence the changes to enmity and the dmg calculation.
That said, if we're talking explicitly about PvP, then the BB combo is probably used a lot less. The target is likely dead by the time your second Fell Cleave goes off, and if they're not, they're trying to run the heck away, so War's don't have quite the same freedom to execute their full Dps rotation as they do in PvE.
If you know a better way of rotating a War burst (especially in PvP), please let me know. I'm not as experienced at War, so I'm open to any suggestions on how I can maximize my Dps and utility on that job. -
03-07-2016, 12:02 AMSainCheese
Seeing how this is a pvp forum, I assumed I wouldn't see any PvE scrubstuff in here! Please, take what you know about PvE, your savage clears and all, and remove those from your brain as long as we're talkin PvP!
All right young padawan, pull up a seat and let me teach ya!
It's not about the rotation! Each combat scenario can vary differently inside PvP. That's why so many people have a hard time picking it up. There are no patterns, just small subtle hints you gotta capitalize on!
1. Don't use butchers inside pvp! It never pays off. If you're ever in a scenario where you're a able to pull off the PvE rotation inside PvP, then the other guy is doing something horribly wrong. You'll find that maim rotation is all you ever need for PvP and 90% of the time it will be for storms eye! Buff your other tanks and ninjas with that slashing debuff! And you can say "but the potency on butchers is more.." and I'll say to you, "So all ninja's should use Sneak Attack over Trick Attack?" "Well ain't that cute... But it's wrong!" (quote from Two Stupid Dogs, kids cartoon way back when.)
Simply put, PvP is about burst, not sustainability, which is why sooooo many people cryed about WAR prior to 3.2 War did, and still does to a degree (all though harshly crippled) have good burst.
So with no further wait, I produce to you, my "use to nuke all classes" burst. I'll break it down step by step too.
Heavy swing, because it's the start of great things.
Holmgang, preferably at that persons six so they can't hit you. This is also to bait out purifies.
Purify, get out of your own holmgang to keep mobility. and move to the opponents six if not already in place
Here is where the scenario can change rapidly.
When holmgang goes off 8 time out of 10 somebody will purify it immediately. If they don't they either don't have purify up... but I assume everybody does, or they're a cocky healer that thinks "oh I can just heal through this." either or I'll split this as two.
scenario 1: Purify is popped.
Opponent does purify, you then
Brutal swing, to immediately cc them
Maim, get that buff!
Full swing for 10% dmg increase
Infuriate, get the stacks max.
Pop Sprint!
Mithril Tempest, to continue to keep them locked up.
Fell cleave
Mercy stroke, (should be GG)
But if for some reason they're still alive after the mercy, do NOT use storms eye. The animation takes forever, heavy swing and maim, hit way faster.
This whole rotation happens in about 4-5 seconds. and it's worked very well prior to 3.2
Now it can still work but honestly im trying to revise and do something better. It's like relearnin pvp all over again :/
Sencario 2: No purify is popped! OH MY
maim, get that buff!
full swing, mooooor poooooowwweeeeer
storms eye, POOOOOWWWWWEEEEEEEERR
Brutal swing, (holmgang should of just or is about to drop)
Inner Beast, get dem stacks.
Pop sprint!
Mithril Tempest,
Fell cleave
Mercy stroke, walk away like a boss. Or pop a realm reborn, whatever your fancy is.
So you see, PvE can suck on its thumb while us big boys do big boi stuff in PvP. -
03-07-2016, 04:04 AMHouston009This is meant to be a joke, right? 'Cuz I'm in tears.Quote:
Originally Posted by SainCheese
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03-07-2016, 04:28 AMFebrusWell, keep in mind that you simply said "dps rotation," in which case I provided one with a pretty hefty burst lol. You're right that this is PvP specific, though. So I should have tuned it accordingly. I did say that BB gets less use in PvP, so your rotations aren't all that surprising to me ... Though, I have to admit that I was surprised you don't use Storms Eye more frequently (for the sake of Party Dps / Abandon stacks whenever Holmgang is not available). I'm also surprised to see you use Mythril Tempest before your FC burst. I would have thought that it gets in the way at that point, as it could potentially knock your target out of your Fell Cleave range and let them escape.Quote:
Originally Posted by SainCheese
In PvP, I definitely do things differently on the (very rare) occasions that I play as War. I don't follow the PvE rotation to the letter, but I still prep for double Fell Cleave bursts. It tends to look something like this for me:
Assuming I'm going in without any stacks and all CD's are up:
Vengeance + [Raw Intuition + Awareness]* -> HS -> Internal Release -> Maim -> Brutal Swing* -> Berserk-> Storms Eye -> Holmgang -> (if not purified) Full Swing -> Fell Cleave -> Infuriate -> Fell Cleave -> Mercy Stroke -> Mythril Tempest*
* Used to pre-prep for 2 stacks, but it is gutsy because it leaves you vulnerable for 5 seconds to crits.
* Hopefully baits an early purify here, but if not it's no big deal.
* Used both as a finisher, if needed, as well as a way to get any flies off my back while I pull out. If I neither need a finisher, nor am being attacked, I will save it for utility (such as healer / node defense), rather than burn it here.
Now, if the target purifies Holmgang, then a slight adjustment is needed:
->Storms Eye -> Holmgang -> Full Swing -> Purify + Sprint (to chase) -> Fell Cleave -> Infuriate -> Fell Cleave -> Mercy Stroke -> Mythril Tempest.
If Holmgang is not up, I tend to save my burst. I'll avoid using Vengeance, Raw Intuition (especially Raw Intuition) and Full Swing, unless I think they are needed for Party utility or if I think I'll have the upper hand. Otherwise, it's all about the prep-work for me. I'll spend most of my CD downtime applying Storm's Eye across as many targets as I can, for the benefit of the team, or rotating between Storms Eye and Butchers Block on the same target to max my Dps (if they are kind enough to let me chase them around that long). Even if I don't kill them, it has the added bonus of keeping enemy healers and casters occupied (assuming my own healer is kind enough to watch my back). I'll do this to pre-prep my next Fell Cleave in anticipation for my next burst, which will happen without a Holmgang, due to its long timer. My secondary burst doesn't have the same lock-down potential as my first (can use Brutal Swing, but Holm is out of the question), however it does allow for a double Fell Cleave, so long as I've been keeping up with Storms eyes and BB's.
This seems to work out pretty well for me, but I'll definitely give yours a try next time I run as War and see which way I like better. -
03-07-2016, 08:50 PMSynestraIts good extra stun depending where you are fighting, if theres a rock or wall next to opponent then KB wont toss him too far. If on openfield i wouldnt suggest to use it for this purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
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03-08-2016, 02:34 AMSainCheeseThe Trill of PvPI can't stress that enough! I like how everyone's feedback was different too. Straigus thought it was a joke, you (Februs) offered your own preference and Nel saw the possibilities. That's what makes PvP so grand!Quote:
Originally Posted by SainCheese
But in the end, what truly matters is: What works for you? Do you have fun doing it?
My fellow Behemoth teammates and I have proven ourselves over and over with a very aggressive play style. Our Skype chat is filled with "OOOH FU*K!" "GDI WHERE ARE YOU CHEESE, WHERE ARE YOU SHALUA?!" "GET HIM GET HIM GET HIM!" "REMEMBER ME!"
The perfect example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SvWgwOU8wk
I only wish I could have edited our skype chat into the vid too.
The best part about it is we laugh and enjoy every second of it and I hope in the end, you all do too.
I still think the tank change is garbage tho. ;-;