Raiding and Teamspeak.

I dislike how much social pressure there is to use it, honestly. I do most of my hardcore end-game events in XI rather than XIV with some friends I'm very close to and even they are pretty forceful in the 'must use, even when unnecessary' (eg, content we've been sleeping through for years.)

I wouldn't even dream of joining a TS-mandatory FC, that's just asking for drama, especially if your FC has more than 10 members. A static is a bit different; I'm not the type who is easily offended by a few lewd comments or jokes, but I also am not interested in voice chat with people I'm not friends with, which is entirely a possibility with statics in how XIV works.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zeonx

Half without half with, only those who need their programs need it to win a fight.

the good players don't.

---

This makes no sense. "Good players don't use voice chat?" Okay then.

Ridiculously blanket statement is ridiculously blanket.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bixillarla

This is one reason I don't use voice chat, I don't need to hear all that crap. I much prefer listening to my music over listening to people trying to be funny or making in appropriate jokes. I had my fill of this crap when I raided in WOW, don't need it here. Probably the one reason that I do not do any hardcore raiding.

---

I can see how being forced into a toxic environment could be horrible for the gameplay experience, though, and make you never want to do it again - and I'm sorry that was your only experience. I've never experienced it, but I've seen and heard recordings of demeaning, vitriolic, and even abusive raid leaders and guild/FC masters (at which point I would say to get out of that group as fast as you can, because even if you can't hear it, even reading that kind of toxicity is horrible). I'm sorry you experienced that. I've known server-leading raid groups that told jokes and talked about work and life and even philosophy while clearing heroic fights, and they were some of the most jovial people I knew.

For our group, it's all in good fun, though - I've always been clear that if anyone would rather I not wax punnily while I call the raid, I will hold back, because I know not everyone likes puns (aside on that note; I really like Mizzteq's video guides - she has the gift of pun). We have vent rules demanding respectful interaction, we don't require anyone to talk (just to listen), and we've actually kicked people out of the raid and even the guild/FC over poor Vent behavior (with certain things, like blatantly misogynistic, homophobic, racist, or otherwise insulting comments, having a zero-strike policy).

In the past, I was able to use voice chat when needed. Being a PST player means that a majority of my grouping time is done when my kids are awake, because they don't go to bed until around 8pm. And these days, when they get in bed, I want to unwind with some casual gameplay and some Netflix on another screen. And sometimes some wine. That means that voice chat is more of an annoyance than a benefit. My kids are noisy, and it makes it hard to follow along in voice chat (if there's such thing as auditory ADD, I have it). And I'd much rather watch a well acted show or movie than listen to someone wax nostalgic about something or someone else try to be clever and fail miserably.

My problem is that some FC's get to the point that if you're not in voice chat, you're completely left out of some things. There were literally people who just refused to type at all. My FC is thankfully not bad, there is a few voice chatters every night (that I've been told, again, i do not participate) but they don't exclude people who don't use voice chat. I understand and appreciate how much easier raids are when voice chat is in use, and I use it for that reason alone. I just don't get the "lets sit in here when i'm crafting and chit-chat" all night. And that's ok. Different strokes for different folks, so long as you don't leave people out who choose not to use voice chat!

Here is the deal with VOIP. Some of it may have been covered already. But here it is.

A lot of times (even in raids) you hear a lot of chatter that you really don't want to hear. I don't mean commands or directions. But there's always that one, two, or three people who feel like everyone wants to hear about their day, what they're thinking, problems with the spouse etc. No, I do not want to hear about that. If VOIP consisted only of raid leader directions and instruction, it would be better. Alas, in these games there are too many socially deficient types who do not know when to shut up.

In terms of more practical usage (within raids) it is grossly overrated. In most non-world first situations, the raid leader is often talking to an extent that they are over compensating for the failures of their raid group. Switch to here, don't stand in this, stun this or that. If you have the right people in the group who do their jobs, not a single thing has to be said or coordinated (not even resurrections). Basically, VOIP is a crutch that allows people to raid who really shouldn't. If you come to a fight prepared, pay attention to everything around you, you do not need instructions over VOIP, period. North American players are just so inundated with "if you're not on VOIP you're doing it wrong." Which only became a thing because so many players are terrible at games, and the talkative raid leader became a means for them to perform marginally at the content.

Personally, I have heard enough social deficient banter in all my years of playing to do without it. Really glad that I don't do savage, so I never have to use it in this game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

Really glad that I don't do savage, so I never have to use it in this game.

---

So what's your point again? How is it "grossly overrated"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashkendor

This makes no sense. "Good players don't use voice chat?" Okay then.

Ridiculously blanket statement is ridiculously blanket.

---

Especially considering the best players absolutely use it.

Sure the top players don't need it after things are on farm. Don't have to use food potions, or even a completely optimized rotation fie farming either.

But during progression? Every advantage is used by the best.

But...it doesn't mean it is absolutely necessary. Just like food or pots (or optimized gear abd rotations). A tool, nothing more

Now hold on folks. Just because voice chat is a crutch doesn't mean you can't be a good player and use voice chat at the same time. Voice chat isn't needed for content, but as a crutch, communication can help a lot. The problem isn't Voice Chat itself being a crutch, the problem is the community has become to dependent on the use of it. Turn 5 unsync farm TS required <- why is this a thing? You have echo,nerfs, level 60 skills, HP and stats.

Some people with anxiety can not use Voice chat, some people don't like hearing others talk when they're trying to concentrate, some players are deaf or mute, some players just don't want to be that social. When we put a heavy demand on voice chat we tell those players they shouldn't bother doing raids for x/y/z problem.
.

I did most of coil when it was relevant, I've raided in other games, and Voice chat is not needed. We did fine without it. In fact my FC that I raided with back in those days had a no voice chat rule. If we absolutely needed on the fly communication for something we created a macro.

Voice chat is definitely a great tool, like a DPS meter is a good tool, do we need voice chat? No of course not. Does it help? Of course it does. Are there cons to using voice chat? You have trolls,loudmouths, people who take rage to extremes and insult other members, people who hear a girl talk and act like they've never spoken to one before, people who curse you out for missing a mechanic , or people who make annoying sounds, people might tell someone their voice sounds terrible.

There's a huge pro of fast communication, but there are a lot of cons involving the community, and you have to ask random people, including those with Anxiety to jump on to TS, Vent, Discord, with people they don't know, and if they can't for XYZ reason. You kick them, they could have been a really good player capable of playing without voice chat, but you'll never know until you try.

Which is the whole crux of what I said. Voice chat isn't bad, if you use it , it can be a great tool. It also isn't needed , not having voice chat does not prevent you from doing mechanics, it does not prevent you from knowing the fight, and not having it does not take away your ability to type. If you want to kick someone because they refuse to login to voice chat, instead maybe you should actually see how good they are first.

I could only imagine this conversation

A: Get on TS, it's required for thordan.
B:No it isn't I don't ever use TS for this fight -links heavensward weapon/item-
A:If you don't get on TS we'll kick you
B:Well I'm deaf,can't hear very well, have no headset.
A:You have to get on TS or we're going to kick you.
B:I'm telling you I know the fight perfectly
A kicks B from the party

Later C joins, gets on Voice chat and they wipe 6 times because C was carried through by his FC.
A kicked B, a player capable of clearing A1/2S and Thordan ex, without the use of voice chat for player C, who was able to use voice chat but was only carried through fights.

This is only one possibility of how reliant people are on voice chat, and unwilling and unfaltering to go into a run without all 8 players on Voice chat.(though it's okay for their friends to be in with the Mic and sound muted)

Yes Voice chat is great, but players getting kicked for not wanting to get on TS, despite having the proof they're good players and never getting to show it happens all the time. The problem isn't the use of voice chat, the problem is a lot the community forces it's use, even on players who don't need it, don't want to use it, or can't use it.

Mute? Kicked. Deaf?Kicked, or can't join TS required parties. By saying voice chat is 100% required you potentially cut off portions of the playerbase from raid content, when honestly it's not as necessary as you might feel

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mercutial

So what's your point again? How is it "grossly overrated"?

---

It's grossly overrated because it is not needed to succeed in the content (contrary to popular belief). In fact, for players who know what they're doing, there is so many more drawbacks to VOIP than pros. When you know your job, VOIP is mostly just inane babble that you would rather not hear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrimsonThunder

I didn't start the thread to stick it to anyone. I don't disagree with the use of VOIP at all. I'm just wondering how people with things like social anxiety or hearing impairment deal with these issues since a lot of static these days put on the "TS required" adds.

Since it was mentioned, how many people have cleared insane content like A3S/A4S without using VOIP and if you did use it, how much of a difference did it make? Do you still use it for farming?
Also just to throw it out there, I would like to think me and my missus weren't carried, we're a tank/healer combo and our former raid leader said he's struggle to find a good replacement main tank.

---

Typically people with high levels of Social Anxiety don't do Raids, due to the level of social interaction required to complete the task.
Those that still attempt it are fine to just "listen in".

So it probably isn't as high a percentage as you think that VOIP would "cut off".

In the case of someone being deaf....well you'd just have to discuss it with the group. Just be prepared to have some alternate form of communication planned, not a big deal.

I have not heard of any Raid groups that have completed A3S/A4S not using VOIP. Even the most elite groups used it on top of any other advantages they could use. A3S would be difficult due to a synchronized stun rotation that is required to pass certain mechanics, so I'm sure even on Farm it would be used.

Quote:

---

Also just to throw it out there, I would like to think me and my missus weren't carried, we're a tank/healer combo and our former raid leader said he's struggle to find a good replacement main tank.

---

It doesn't sound like you were carried. It's just too bad you weren't able to figure out some way for the missus to have a fair advantage. Although A1S/A2S wouldn't really require any VOIP as a healer due to being able to discuss Prey mechanics prior to the fight. The only thing I could think of in A2 would be ground AOE's being called out as it's easy to tunnel vision in that fight. So it's possible that lack of VOIP wasn't even a concern.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

It's grossly overrated because it is not needed to succeed in the content (contrary to popular belief). In fact, for players who know what they're doing, there is so many more drawbacks to VOIP than pros. When you know your job, VOIP is mostly just inane babble that you would rather not hear.

---

OP is talking about Raids. You may not know anything about that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

snip

---

People with social anxiety, or hearing issues raid all the time, people who are colorblind also raid all the time.

The level of social interaction required to do a raid is very minimal, you communicate through text with others to complete a task. No different than completing difficult quests back in the day that required more than just yourself. The problem is it takes a level of bravery to join a party/ raid group/static already. Then you have to take an even further step of bravery and actually use your voice to talk to people. Not everyone with anxiety is the same, not everyone with anxiety has it happen in the same way or at the same time.

It's really hard to say something as general as "typically people with high levels of social anxiety don't raid" without any proof ,statistics, or numbers to back it up, other than you "feel" that's the way it is based on your interactions. There are millions upon millions of gamers, and you think that everyone in the high end has no mental issues, high level of social anxiety, or problems with using voice chat?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

It's grossly overrated because it is not needed to succeed in the content (contrary to popular belief). In fact, for players who know what they're doing, there is so many more drawbacks to VOIP than pros. When you know your job, VOIP is mostly just inane babble that you would rather not hear.

---

And you don't even raid at a top-tier by your own admission. Your expertise on the usefulness of VOIP for top-tier raiding is considerably suspect in that case. Do you often speak as a expert on things you don't have experience with?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

OP is talking about Raids. You may not know anything about that.

---

Just because I don't raid savage in this game, does not mean I know nothing about raids. I have raided plenty in other games. I know how they work.

If you do your research, come prepared, and do your job, that is all that is required to execute mechanics.

If you need a raid leader to coordinate your job, or remind you to do this or that, you really shouldn't be raiding in the first place

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mercutial

And you don't even raid at a top-tier by your own admission. Your expertise on the usefulness of VOIP for top-tier raiding is considerably suspect in that case. Do you often speak as a expert on things you don't have experience with?

---

Because FF XIV is the only game that has "top tier raids," right?

It's not always about a raid leader "doing call-outs" or "coordinating". It has a lot to do with a raid team discussing strats between pulls... conveying split second decisions to teammates due to the RNG nature of many of the game's mechanics.... and (gasp) fostering a team-like environment that every successful static has.

Your insinuation that only poor players use VOIP as a crutch borders on trolling. And any serious raider would agree with that.

Having someone that can't use VOIP because of being deaf or other reasons isn't a big deal at all. When I raided in rift, we had a deaf person in our static and they were awesome. It did help that we had everyone else in VOIP of course. Most of the people I've known that couldn't be in VOIP for a raid were good on their toes or could type fast.

Not being able to voip isn't a excuse to not pay attention. I've also known many people who didn't want to talk only so they could just ignore everyone and watch tv at the same time.... -_-

Knowing the difference is the key. Some people just can't. Some don't want to. Some just can't be bothered. Having a team is about having everyone do what they can to help the team succeed.

In my experiences raiding in probably 4-5 different games(wow, rift, ffxi, aion, city of heroes) over many years now with different static groups, it would be weird to not voip with them. It's the whole point of having a static group. You need to know who you are playing with so you can work together and plan stuff out. If you could beat the content in a pug and never speak to anyone, you'd already be doing it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mercutial

It's not always about a raid leader "doing call-outs" or "coordinating". It has a lot to do with a raid team discussing strats between pulls... conveying split second decisions to teammates due to the RNG nature of many of the game's mechanics.... and (gasp) fostering a team-like environment that every successful static has.

Your insinuation that only poor players use VOIP as a crutch borders on trolling. And any serious raider would agree with that.

---

Is this why there are many statics (on the JP side) that do not use VOIP at all? Strat discussion should be used outside of raid hours, unless there is a cataclysmic problem. If you execute properly, there are no split-second decisions that needs to be communicated. Voice chat does not solely foster a team-like environment. If you rely on voice to do this, there is a problem with your static.

I also never said only poor players use VOIP. What I said was VOIP is often used to compensate for poor players who could not do the content otherwise. The players who have poor situationally awareness, do not research or prepare, and need the constant reminders to perform.

That != only poor players use VOIP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

A lot of times (even in raids) you hear a lot of chatter that you really don't want to hear. I don't mean commands or directions. But there's always that one, two, or three people who feel like everyone wants to hear about their day, what they're thinking, problems with the spouse etc. No, I do not want to hear about that. If VOIP consisted only of raid leader directions and instruction, it would be better. Alas, in these games there are too many socially deficient types who do not know when to shut up.

---

Have you ever heard a raid leader call "clear vent"? It's kind of amazing, actually. People will shut up and let the raid leader lead the raid. Any social aspect that interferes with the gameplay can effectively be cut by this. And if someone doesn't get the memo, you have the power in these situations to mute them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

In terms of more practical usage (within raids) it is grossly overrated. In most non-world first situations, the raid leader is often talking to an extent that they are over compensating for the failures of their raid group. Switch to here, don't stand in this, stun this or that. If you have the right people in the group who do their jobs, not a single thing has to be said or coordinated (not even resurrections).

---

Right, but its benefit comes when learning a given fight. It is an extremely efficient means to communicate, because it doesn't tie up your hands for even the moment it would take to press a macro button - you can bind your push-to-talk key somewhere that won't interfere (I have mine as the tilde key), so you can continue playing without gimping yourself. If used right, it can be tremendously helpful when people are still trying to figure out what to do. I'm also willing to bet that all of the world-first FCs have some sort of VoIP that they use for communicating.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

Basically, VOIP is a crutch that allows people to raid who really shouldn't. If you come to a fight prepared, pay attention to everything around you, you do not need instructions over VOIP, period. North American players are just so inundated with "if you're not on VOIP you're doing it wrong." Which only became a thing because so many players are terrible at games, and the talkative raid leader became a means for them to perform marginally at the content.

---

Complex mechanics may require that extra attention called to their occurrence. Having them called by a single individual who's focusing on them can free up mental energy to focus on your rotation. Sure, you'll need to be conscious of those things anyway, but having someone say "aerial bombardment on Jim!" allows you to not watch for it yourself - you just know that you need to get away from Jim (or if you ARE Jim, that you need to gtfo the raid). Again, having good raid awareness will help anyway, but raid calling is a way of helping to level the playing field, and allow people to focus on other aspects of their performance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

Personally, I have heard enough social deficient banter in all my years of playing to do without it. Really glad that I don't do savage, so I never have to use it in this game.

---

Have you ever gone in with friends, though? Vent and VoIP become completely different when you're in with people you actually like talking to.

......a bit off-topic but alot of hyurs look the same. Was a bit difficult for me to keep up with the previous convo XP

I'm somewhat socially anxious in crowds (with a "crowd" to me being any group larger than three or four), so I'm not the type that likes to "hang out" on VOIP with FC members and stuff like that. I do host a TS server for any progression groups that I run, but at times I need to zone out the conversation to focus on the task at hand because of the effort I need for social interaction. With the right groups, I actually find the socialization helpful to reduce the tension of raiding (which also gives me some anxiety issues at times) as long as it doesn't get to the point where it's detrimental to the group's success.

VOIP isn't necessary by any means but it certainly provides benefits, especially in progression situations, that will generally allow for better success. That's a large part of why it's so common in top-tier raiding environments, I'd imagine.

Here's what I don't get. If the group requires or benefits from the raid leader's vocal call-outs so much, then the raid leader must have information that the other group members don't have. Otherwise things wouldn't need to be called out, right? However, the static leader isn't any more experienced with the instance unless they go practice with another group when content is out. This isn't a common practice I assume.

So essentially someone with equal experience is calling out things that everyone has seen in the videos and read about beforehand. What's the point? Coordinating cooldowns can be done with 2 macros: "Swiftcast on cooldown <se.#>" and "Stunned/interrupted <se.#>". You can also macro a message to some support/emergency skills. Coordinating positions should be done beforehand because they are mechanic related and mechanics are known beforehand. I can't think of anything that a good player would need called out in voice chat specifically.

My experience with it was that people chatted about random things and play bad music, strats which could have been compressed to a single macro were told over a longer time period than it took me to read a guide, the raid leader would either call out things I already knew or bark at people depending on her mood, kids would scream in the background and there's always one mouth-breather or keyboard-basher who doesn't use push-to-talk. Not to mention the drama of some hearing the voice of a real girl and falling in love... or even worse the people who take flirting too far mid raid. <_< And if a raid team enforces voice comm it's a choice between not raiding and putting up with mandatory chit chat for 2 hours when you're supposed to be unwinding from the day. Teamspeak can be fun too, as long as it's moderated, the people are decent and it's not mandatory for raiding or for knowing what the guild is up to.

I read about an all-deaf guild in WoW (2013) who tackled some of the hardest content in the game at that time, so it's possible to play at a pretty high level without voice communication for sure. TS is fun for socializing and useful for the crowd capable of making the strategy videos before any have been released. Otherwise I wouldn't say it's required.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

snip.

---

From what I've seen and heard, JP players do not consider the content difficult enough to require vocal interaction. However, the world first players did indeed use voice chat because being able to communicate things on the fly during progression helps a lot and takes away the time it would take to wipe and then go over things.


Voice chat is a double edged sword. You're right in one way, it does help players who tunnel vision, don't pay full attention, or are not as great, be better players.

However a team is not the individual. It's the sum of all its parts. If 6 poor players on voice chat with 1 or 2 doing call outs can make a great team because of voice chat, then is that not a good thing?

I'm a big devils advocate in this thread . You could feasibly raid 7 days a week and have no interaction with your static members except raids, hardly know anything about them, and learn and clear fights together just fine.

Friendship does not necessarily mean teamwork. However if you're trying to do every single possible thing you can to succeed, Voice chat, DPS meters,guides, anything you can find to help your team, if everyone is capable and willing to do it. They probably will try.

Voice chat doesn't make a bad player , it doesn't make a good player. It's just a tool for communication that happens to have pros and cons, It shouldn't be as required as it is by the community. But that's a problem with the community not the tool. That doesn't change that it's still a good tool.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

Here is the deal with VOIP. Some of it may have been covered already. But here it is.

A lot of times (even in raids) you hear a lot of chatter that you really don't want to hear. I don't mean commands or directions. But there's always that one, two, or three people who feel like everyone wants to hear about their day, what they're thinking, problems with the spouse etc. No, I do not want to hear about that. If VOIP consisted only of raid leader directions and instruction, it would be better. Alas, in these games there are too many socially deficient types who do not know when to shut up.

---

See, my FC and static spend a lot of time in voice chat with each other when we're not raiding and those are the times when we talk about random crap like that. Raid time is srs bzns though. I'm one of those people that has (as someone else put it) auditory ADD - I have a very hard time paying attention to the raid itself if there's extra voice chatter. If people are talking about stuff outside the raid, I seriously just completely space mechanics and cooldowns and it's very frustrating to try to focus. So, raid time is all about mechanics and strategy (in-depth discussion being left for between pulls), with casual conversation being left out of it.

In any case, I don't see how wanting to chat with people I know and spend a lot of time with makes me socially deficient. Hell, I don't see how wanting to chat with people I just met makes me socially deficient either. o.O

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cynric

Voice chat is definitely a great tool, like a DPS meter is a good tool, do we need voice chat? No of course not. Does it help? Of course it does. Are there cons to using voice chat? You have trolls,loudmouths, people who take rage to extremes and insult other members, people who hear a girl talk and act like they've never spoken to one before, people who curse you out for missing a mechanic , or people who make annoying sounds, people might tell someone their voice sounds terrible.

---

Any of these would get asked to simmer down in our Mumble channel.

We respect each other and the people that join us there.

Quote:

---

There's a huge pro of fast communication, but there are a lot of cons involving the community, and you have to ask random people, including those with Anxiety to jump on to TS, Vent, Discord, with people they don't know, and if they can't for XYZ reason. You kick them, they could have been a really good player capable of playing without voice chat, but you'll never know until you try.

---

Being deaf or having anxiety are perfectly legitimate reasons to not be in voice chat. Someone that used to be in my FC had enormous social anxiety issues as well, and though we were disappointed she wouldn't be joining us in Mumble, we never forced her to come chat with us. I'm willing to give people a shot if they can't be in voice chat. When I say that, I mean a fair shot with an extra few wipes included while we figure out how to deal with specific situations without voice cue. It's no different than when my static had a color-blind BLM - you figure out ways to work around it. If they continually miss simple mechanics though, they'll be treated the same way as anyone else that couldn't perform regardless of voice chat use.

TS is a great tool to assist in raiding. Not everyone needs or wants to use said tool. If you don't want to use it, don't join a group who does. That simple, find a group who doesn't use voice chat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashkendor

snip

---

See this is the way the community as a whole should treat voice chat. The problem comes when you have a good portion fo groups that are TS or no deal. Some groups are willing to work with people like yours and some others. Other groups would rather just say no and find someone who can use TS.

Then there's the issue of "if said group uses voice chat find one that doesn't"

I think it's similar to the "Groups require experience, but you need to raid to get experience" kind of thing. So many groups require voice chat that finding one that doesn't is a task, and if you know you can't voice chat for whatever reason, then you don't join groups that require TS, if you're good enough you could prove you work fine without it, but you have to be given the chance to show you're good enough, and a lot of statics like with players who are fairly new to fights, don't want to take that chance.

It's a pretty sad thing to think about. You could say make your own static. But these days that's one heck of a task, and with how many people require voice chat, I've noticed a lot of people won't join statics that don't use voice chat.

It's a problem, but it's a problem like many other things with our community, and not the game itself or the voice chat programs. Just the community is not as friendly and accepting as they could be. Especially in the raiding scene.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cynric

It's a problem, but it's a problem like many other things with our community, and not the game itself or the voice chat programs. Just the community is not as friendly and accepting as they could be. Especially in the raiding scene.

---

Literally the point of voice chat is cohesion, not to exclude someone. Everyone has to be on the same page, not half on one page and half on the other. What's the point of push to talk if you're going to have type the whole scenario out to one or two people anyways?

It stems from group cohesion and communication, not a societally rooted issue of disregarding those who have anxiety issues or what have you like you're making it out to be.

my FC didn't bother to start a static in HW cuz no one had any interest in Alexander, but when we were doing coils and EX primals in ARR, we had a "Voice-chat optional" rule, it was there for everyone if they WISHED to use it, but they would be in no way forced into it, I opted to not because I find the talking more distracting than anything, and would rather just put my focus into the mechanics instead, in the end there were only like 2 or 3 people that ever really used it, and we cleared just fine. I understand the usefulness people find in having it, but I do think it's used more as a crutch than an aid for most.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greedalox

Literally the point of voice chat is cohesion, not to exclude someone. Everyone has to be on the same page, not half on one page and half on the other. What's the point of push to talk if you're going to have type the whole scenario out to one or two people anyways?

It stems from group cohesion and communication, not a societally rooted issue of disregarding those who have anxiety issues or what have you like you're making it out to be.

---

No it might be cohesion within (naturally) but there definitely is exclusion if you don't use VOIP just like the exclusion there is for people who don't watch video guides.

Hope nobody use teamspeak or mumble or vent still in 2016... Heard of Discord? If not run go learn anout it like ASAP!

I do not waste my time with High MS programs anymore and that looks like made out from windows 98. And turn down any FC or group that used anything else then Discord!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felmyst

Hope nobody use teamspeak or mumble or vent still in 2016... Heard of Discord? If not run go learn anout it like ASAP!

I do not waste my time with High MS programs anymore and that looks like made out from windows 98. And turn down any FC or group that used anything else then Discord!

---

See there's even exclusion within the exclusion of using VOIP and non-VOIP..

(Quoted may be satire but it fits right now)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greedalox

snip.

---

It's obvious why you don't understand. You use voice chat and are fully capable of using voice chat and, you refuse to look past how you feel about it.

Your line of thinking is what proves it. "The point of voice chat is cohesion ,not to exclude someone" you say, then go on to say "whats the point of push to talk if you're going to have to type it out"
If you don't want to exclude anyone you make sure your team is on the same page regardless of whether they chose to be on TS or not, if that means typing out something you just said then you do so. That's what makes a good team. Willing to do things to help everyone succeed without pushing them.

In your line of thinking. What's the point in me calling out Petrifaction. Can you not read the cast bar that says Petrifaction is casting? Why do you need me to tell you to turn around every single time? You are privy to the exact same information I am on my screen.

It's all about what you're comfortable with, some people love voice chat. Some people can't do it. If you really want to succeed as a raid group, and as a real team, you have to learn to give leeway to people to help them feel comfortable. If someone is anxious the whole time during a raid because they're on voice chat , that becomes a problem. If it means you have to type out a couple of things, then you're going to have to sacrifice those few moments it takes to answer a couple of questions for the success of the group as a whole.

You ask the question of why should you have to type it to them?

I ask the question of ,why I should have to call out a mechanic that everyone can see if they're paying attention.

Voice chat isn't the end all be all. You just assume it is because you make use of it.

You want to be a good team and there's an amazing player that can't use voice chat? You either take the player, or you can try to find someone else who does use voice chat. But if you turn down that player for a worse one, what did you accomplish in progression for your group? Did you really do everything you could ? Or did you just do what is more "comfortable for you" because using voice is comfortable to you.

Well guess what? When they told you No to using teamspeak? They also did what was more comfortable for them by telling you they refuse.

Someone has to compromise somewhere. And me personally? I'd rather type out things to a good /fun /nice player, then callout things to a bad/toxic/ or a player who isn't willing to learn.

You can either learn to compromise or you don't. But don't assume that any of this has to do with VOIP.

VOIP is just a tool. The person using the tool is the one determining the way its used. Thus any exclusion is in fault of our community. That makes it a community problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cynric

Snip

---

Your entire post paralells a social justice warrior Tumblr post. I get the sneaking suspicion you're making me out to be some self-centered bigot because we have differing views and I need to check my privilege. You also seem to be putting a lot of words in my mouth that I never said which is counter productive when you're trying to make a point. You're pretending the raiding world should be a Utopia where everyone is a top tier raider who can remember the mechanics at all times, without lapse in judgement EVER after hours of raiding (Funny enough, watch clear videos and you learn that there is actually a lack of need for communication, they're silent for a lot of it. It's for times when it won't be a clear or a sloppy mess occurs). So yes, communication does happen and having to go over information twice in a dire moment is a little...quirky?

There can be an amazing player who doesn't use voice chat, and I'm sure they'll be a wonderful contribution to a mixed group or a no-voicechat group.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felmyst

Hope nobody use teamspeak or mumble or vent still in 2016... Heard of Discord? If not run go learn anout it like ASAP!

I do not waste my time with High MS programs anymore and that looks like made out from windows 98. And turn down any FC or group that used anything else then Discord!

---

Or I can keep using Mumble, which we've been using for two years and works just as well for what we need it for - voice chat.

The only real advantage of Discord is a shiny text chat interface. If I'm going to communicate via text chat, I'll do it in game.

That feel when people start getting elitist over what VoIP you use, though. xD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greedalox

(Funny enough, watch clear videos and you learn that there is actually a lack of need for communication, they're silent for a lot of it. It's for times when it won't be a clear or a sloppy mess occurs).

---

Thank you SO much for pointing this out. It appears most anti-VOIP's are under the impression that every mechanic is being called out and that inane background chatter is non-stop. Sometimes my raid group is so quiet during a run that I have to check to make sure I wasn't kicked out of Mumble... haha.

It's mostly for in-between pull strat making during progression or for when a run begins to go really sour and quick adjustments have to be made and more importantly, quickly communicated in order to save the run.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Or I can keep using Mumble, which we've been using for two years and works just as well for what we need it for - voice chat.

The only real advantage of Discord is a shiny text chat interface. If I'm going to communicate via text chat, I'll do it in game.

That feel when people start getting elitist over what VoIP you use, though. xD

---

Lol and now the real war begins

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greedalox

Snip

---

My quotes were pretty much exactly what you said. I actually cut out a few words after the "push to talk" thing. So if there were words being put in your mouth, please explain?


As for myself. I've both argued for, and against voice chat in this thread. I myself, will or won't use voice chat. I'm simply discussing the points in this thread. I don't know what a "social justice warrior tumblr post" even is. I also have never once said that everyone "should remember the mechanics at all times"
I'm just giving counter points. Which you haven't tried to argue, instead you referenced something about tumblr?

You're right though, a lot of times voice chat is 100% not needed. In most clears, and clear videos, no one even needs to talk to each other. So what was the point of even being on in the first place? I understand the need to go over information in a dire moment, however most of the time that's not what happens in voice chat.

Everyone usually just shouts expletives about how they screwed up and a wipe happens, or someone dies, or you joke about the incoming wipe. I'm sure some groups are able to come to react quick enough and communicate well enough in enough time to save a wipe? But do you assume this is how every run goes with voice chat? It's quite the opposite. Using voice does not always help save the run, nor does it mean your group is able to react quick enough to save the run just because they're using voice.

Voice just gives you that option. Would raid awareness also give you that option? Yes it would. I said in a previous post that voice chat is a crutch, but a helpful one that can indeed make a difference.

I've said more than a couple of times in here that it's just a tool. You can use it or not. It's how you use it that determines if it's a good thing or a bad thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cynric

Snip Snip

---

Okay, first off you make the claim that voice chat is a crutch, that's a different debate and besides the point but it does bring up an interesting thought which you brought up previously about how raid awareness is all you will ever need in a raid setting, to which I implored that the very premise of your notion speaks to peak performance for the hours of raid time. You called me out on not being understanding of peoples reasons for not using voice chat, so I ask that you try to understand peoples reasons as to why they may or may not be able to play at peak performance for the standard 2-3 hour raid session, as to which the "crutch" could help thwart a misguided attempt.

Don't speak so broadly about how voice-chat is just a shout fest, you may have had bad experiences but it would not be a tried, tested and true "crutch" for so many years if all it did was lower attention to the game and burst peoples ear drums. And yes, it may not save every run, but even 1/10 is better than the 0/10 you propose.

I've also said it's a tool, and I've also said you can use it or not. I merely implore that people shouldn't be shamed and reduced to "someone who needs a crutch" because they wish to have a full group who use it. There naturally are full voice chat groups, mixed groups and no voice chat groups, but why does it have to be that a full voice chat group is viewed negatively when the tools and groups for alternative means of raiding communication are available, aka typing and groups who use/prefer typing.

Honestly at this point in the discussion I'm less interested about the raiding and voice chat and more interested in a few points brought up earlier.

Lots of people seem to like to voice chat with friends they make in the game. For people who like to voice chat: when someone doesn't want to voice chat, do you feel more distant from them (if you like to voice chat), or do you accept it and move on? How do you view friends who voice chat and friends who don't? For people who don't: how do you feel when other players talk about voice chatting or when you are invited to voice chat? Do you still feel close to friends even if they don't hear your voice?

...it's all very interesting to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greedalox

snip

---

Then we have a misunderstanding. I was asking questions first and foremost. Second, In a previous post I've already stated that while it might be a crutch. If someone needs it then it's doing a good job. something along the lines of "if 6 bad players and 1-2 good ones calling things out can clear a raid then how is that a bad thing?"

There's nothing wrong with using voice chat to help you clear a raid.

My question is more so along the lines of. If using voice chat can help you clear a raid because you're more comfortable with it, then what's so wrong with including people who do not use voice chat because they are not comfortable with it?

I'm not speaking of your group in particular, I have no idea what rules or regulations you run by.

I'm saying that as of now, currently in our community, a lot of people believe that without voice chat raids can not be cleared. When that is very far from the truth and, that while a player might not want to participate in teampseak or what have you, that does not mean that they can not do the fight just as well without talking or hearing others talk.

I'm also saying that most things that voice chat is used for can usually be done without it if everyone is aware.

Does the perfect world exist where every single person is at the top end where there are zero mistakes? No of course not. You can't always be on your A game, however, if you accept that voice chat helps when you aren't, then you have to accept that it is indeed a crutch for imperfect play. There's nothing wrong with using it to help. Some people don't need it though, and shouldn't be forced into using it. Most importantly, there's nothing wrong with making mistakes and not playing perfectly.

Currently the way our community is in the Raiding scene though, you'd be hard pressed to find a group that doesn't require voice chat. (I've even seen FC's that require teamspeak for you to join, which I think is just weird.)

I've seen players turn down playing in groups for not having a TS/discord/vent/etc. set up already. Or for the group not wanting to use voice. Which makes finding or making a static for people who don't like to use voice chat harder.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Or I can keep using Mumble, which we've been using for two years and works just as well for what we need it for - voice chat.

The only real advantage of Discord is a shiny text chat interface. If I'm going to communicate via text chat, I'll do it in game.

That feel when people start getting elitist over what VoIP you use, though. xD

---

EWWW MUMBLE then you call yourself a raider? Have consideration for your friends, and consider that not everyone have your internet. Eww...Mumble...even the name is cheap. It is the worse on MS ever. High ping all day long.