FFXIV is in a Prime Position to Make Some Drastic Changes

This game barely has any competition. In fact I don't think I see any in this game lol.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

This game barely has any competition. In fact I don't think I see any in this game lol.

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Yup. That was Pride's point originally. We need a bit more. There's technically some in GS (TT and LoVM), but it's really what I'd call "novelty" competition. Fun stuff, if you don't mind hanging out in the closet it's stored in.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

RDM could work <...> Jack of all trades, yes - but MASTER OF NONE <...> The thing that makes it generally unworkable, in my mind, is not a question of what abilities it has <...> it's a question of queues.

What would a RDM queue as? Healer? <...> Tank? <...> DPS?

Vertical progression is a good thing. Horizontal, not so much. <and then everything else he said that was spot on>

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You read my mind, man.

The biggest problem I noticed too was if they introduced a job that wasn't locked into the role system, how would the queue work as it is now? I thought breaking the vertical progression would begin to help address it, but I've since changed my mind. I had a thought about having it queue untethered to any specific role, then as the roles were gradually filled it would close the gap...i don't know now though, maybe. It would always either be tank or heals, and honestly I didn't really see RDM as a tank, more in line with DRG (access to better armor than other dps) but with the capacity to be a healer. I ALSO thought about it having some Mystic Knight mechanics...you know, attributing BLM spells into a rune blade, allowing for elemental damage on top of harder hits...and give me chain spell...

Anyway, I'm excited for it nonetheless, I was just pondering how it would fit in.

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Originally Posted by BlatantPyre

The biggest problem I noticed too was if they introduced a job that wasn't locked into the role system, how would the queue work as it is now? I thought breaking the vertical progression would begin to help address it, but I've since changed my mind. I had a thought about having it queue untethered to any specific role, then as the roles were gradually filled it would close the gap...i don't know now though, maybe. It would always either be tank or heals, and honestly I didn't really see RDM as a tank, more in line with DRG (access to better armor than other dps) but with the capacity to be a healer. I ALSO thought about it having some Mystic Knight mechanics...you know, attributing BLM spells into a rune blade, allowing for elemental damage on top of harder hits...and give me chain spell...

Anyway, I'm excited for it nonetheless, I was just pondering how it would fit in.

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Yeah, this is what gets me, too, about RDM, though I'm not sure it'd be such a big deal insofar as how it would queue--more, that it would have to pick one role to queue as, and that most parties would have to hinge its use on a particular use rather than making the best use of all three combined roles. Ideally, I'd want it to be something outside the role system, but in reality it's more likely going to be able to qualify for only one role at a time, likely gearing for healer, tank, or dps, and queueing accordingly. That said, even without gearing for the particular role, it could easily just pick a role in the meaning not of limited capability (after all, our tanks and healers can both DPS significantly enough) but of intention to fulfilling its obligations (keeping the party alive when healing, holding aggro as necessary when tanking), noting that whatever else they might contribute they can and most likely will be kicked if they do not perform the role they signed on as, just like any bad role-locked tank, healer, or dps.

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Originally Posted by BlatantPyre

The biggest problem I noticed too was if they introduced a job that wasn't locked into the role system....

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There's no unwritten rule that RDM has to be a support, or jack-of-all, though. Everyone dork knight as a dps job, but it seems to fit the tanking role jsut fine, provided they have been given the tools for such. FFXIV has done pretty well as far as taking concepts from the FF series and molding it into something that works in an MMO setting, BLMwith the astral/umbral mechanic for example. It clearly doesnt play as a traditional FF blackmage, but at hte same time draws from it's concept of having a wide pletioria of elemental spells and make it work without the elemental wheel (which is typically an extremely limiting factor in any MMO game)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

There's no unwritten rule that RDM has to be a support, or jack-of-all, though. Everyone dork knight as a dps job, but it seems to fit the tanking role just fine, provided they have been given the tools for such. FFXIV has done pretty well as far as taking concepts from the FF series and molding it into something that works in an MMO setting, BLM with the astral/umbral mechanic for example. It clearly doesnt play as a traditional FF blackmage, but at the same time draws from it's concept of having a wide plethora of elemental spells and make it work without the elemental wheel (which is typically an extremely limiting factor in any MMO game)

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I guess what's being mused about then isn't so much a class that has things in common with the RDM, but the iconic hybrid niche that RDM has happened to fill.

We basically can get another class with weapon enchants, mixed melee and spell-casting, and maybe even a single-target Refresh, any day. My tank can wear a shiny red coat and hat. Monks have the Red Thief set which looks pretty close... But a real hybrid, that's the real rarity that I think a lot of people would like to see pulled off, though preferably with one the best dressed and most iconic jobs to meet that description.

A bit off topic, but I think that something like the following could give players something to do in between content patches:

So lately I've been searching for another MMO to dive into (or return to in most cases) since XIV right now has stagnated for me (and Blade and Soul isn't out for 2 weeks and Black Desert CBT2 hasn't been announced). I'm still subbed and still log in once in a while to see if my friends are on (they rarely are, as they're waiting for something new to happen as well) and I started looking at WoW again. It's been *years* since I last played (I officially stopped WoW when Firelands was released, I later bought the expansions up to Warlords, but never really played them).And I was talking with an old buddy of mine who used to be in the same guild as me and we started to reminisce about how Wow had the achievements for the Heroic dungeons where after you completed various challenges you got a mount. I remember it being *really* fun to go back and do them for the mount and achievements. Granted, WoW's dungeons (at least when I played) were a lot more fun than XIV's (in most cases). But I think that SE could definitely make the achievements worth something more, I know there's a few achievements (200 primal kills for class mounts, but that's just another grind) that give rewards, but I'm talking about actual *challenges* in the dungeons. Maybe Time challenges or something.
I just remember having lots of fun doing odd things like that in WoW that isn't available in XIV (or other MMO's to be honest).

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Originally Posted by BlatantPyre

Competition in its purest form is not only healthy, it is *essential* to life.

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Competition in its purest form is survival of the fittest.

It is a sad fact resulting from the scarcity of ressources on our planet. It does rely on loss because the sole purpose of competition is to decide who eats and who has to go hungry. Who lives and who dies. Who gets the title and who doesn't. Who becomes rich and who becomes poor. Who wins and who loses.

If everyone can win, everyone can eat and everyone can live, there is no need for competition and nobody sane engages in such. I'm most certain you too do not compete over your food, health or anything that matters if you don't have to. Feel free to correct me if you actually are. I, for one, don't know a single person who would. Everyone I know would rather that everyone can go home sated and happy, if somehow possible.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

There's no unwritten rule that RDM has to be a support, or jack-of-all, though.

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Indeed--honestly, RDM's identity isn't particularly concrete across the various FF titles. While it always has melee, black magic, and white magic, there have only been a couple of the titles where it's actually been notably good at all three things at once. In terms of hitting all three of those bases, I suspect tank is actually the easiest fit for FFXIV's current paradigm (black magic for ranged/AoE threat stuff, white magic for self-heals/defensive cooldowns [like Phalanx/Stoneskin/Blink from FFXI], and then tanks are naturally in melee). But they could just as easily minimize the melee aspect, too, and make it a healer, since they already have both offensive and defensive magic (healer doesn't even necessarily preclude melee, but given their penchant for raid mechanics that make healers stay away from the group, that might get kind of messy).

What I don't see RDM being is a straight DPS, though (unless perhaps they do some sort of split-job thing like SMN/SCH--but that's highly unlikely).

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Originally Posted by Alahra

What I don't see RDM being is a straight DPS, though (unless perhaps they do some sort of split-job thing like SMN/SCH--but that's highly unlikely).

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Could be a melee dps/support (using spells like enfire etc to not only buff their own weapon but the melee party members as well). Basically using TP and MP skills for dps with some support added?

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Competition in its purest form is survival of the fittest.

It is a sad fact resulting from the scarcity of ressources on our planet. It does rely on loss because the sole purpose of competition is to decide who eats and who has to go hungry. Who lives and who dies. Who gets the title and who doesn't. Who becomes rich and who becomes poor. Who wins and who loses.

If everyone can win, everyone can eat and everyone can live, there is no need for competition and nobody sane engages in such. I'm most certain you too do not compete over your food, health or anything that matters if you don't have to. Feel free to correct me if you actually are. I, for one, don't know a single person who would. Everyone I know would rather that everyone can go home sated and happy, if somehow possible.

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Again, you are redefining competition to something it's not. Who has told you to think this way? You are taking something messed up and grafting it on something that has nothing to do with what's messed up. Competition isn't about victory over others, it's about challenging each other. It's about improvement, about learning, as a *people*. And sure, it can *come into play* in survival; but it isn't survival itself, it's an ingredient that comprises it, not the other way around. In your example of competing for food, such an instance exists only when there's a *shortage*...the competition isn't the problem, something else is. And in current reality, it's because people have either become lazy or corrupt that's the problem, not competition. And besides, even in such a setting, if *no one* worked to eat, ALL would die. If the problem of scarcity were solved, no one would have to compete to survive...but competition would remain, because it's necessary for life. Stop being fooled into focusing on red herrings and straw-men - look at the REAL problems.

This is going to be my last post on this, feel free to continue, but...this isn't the place for it.

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Originally Posted by Shyle

Could be a melee dps/support (using spells like enfire etc to not only buff their own weapon but the melee party members as well). Basically using TP and MP skills for dps with some support added?

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If they're DPS, they'd definitely be more in the support avenue (like BRD and MCH I'd wager), that's for sure.

As far as RDM goes...<sigh> everything you guys have said makes sense. It's just that, the big reason I've always been into the job is because of the versatility of it. If that goes away, it won't really be RDM to me. I agree that FFXIV has done a good job of redefining many of the old jobs into something not only useful in an MMO, but that expands on what those jobs have been by introducing new mechanics. I wouldn't mind a similar treatment to RDM...but it has to still be RDM. Look at BRD. Of all the jobs, it's the least like it's original counter-part (heck, it's pretty much in truth Ranger). And which job do we hear the most complaints about? I do mean the most, btw, I know there's complaints across the board...

I don't really care (much) (..too much...) (...maybe a bit) about what role/roles the job will be. I just want it to be able to have some utility and versatility in a fight, is all...

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Originally Posted by Alahra

If they're DPS, they'd definitely be more in the support avenue (like BRD and MCH I'd wager), that's for sure.

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Which I don't think would be a good choice to be honest. XIV I think needs to move from Trinity to a 4 pillars style MMO. Where instead of just tank/dps/heal there's Tank/dps/heal/support. Where the support is purely support. They do literally everything, but their main job is to aid each other role with it's buffs/debuffs.That way, Bards can be true bards, using songs to debuff enemies and buff the group, rdms can do their thing, then we can get Ranger as a true physical mobile dps and machinist as a mobile dps ranged slot with turrets (?). I honestly don't know what the role of machinist was in previous FF games, so maybe not have ranger and just have MCH take the mobile ranged dps spot? But considering the game is based on 4 man variant groups (4/8/24) having that fourth pillar would fit fine for groups.

in any case, the hybrid classes (BRD/MCH) suffer in this game without the support role as a slot for the group. just my .02$.

I don't know if most people would even like to play as support, for it just sounds like a weaker DPS playing the role of a healer.

Rdm would be easy to implement... just make the queue as dps, and give them a sword for melee and have some abilitys like en-fira stance or w/e gives the entire a dps buff so the rdm dps + the bonus the give to the party would = what a normal dps dmg would do.

Then they could have like en-windra or something gives party regen

en-stonera gives tank+ rdm dmg reduciton

Then melee weapon skills and shit that chain with spells. Hit all the rdm tropes.

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Originally Posted by Shyle

Which I don't think would be a good choice to be honest. XIV I think needs to move from Trinity to a 4 pillars style MMO. Where instead of just tank/dps/heal there's Tank/dps/heal/support.

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It's honestly too late for that, and it would cause huge disruptions in the Duty Finder, really. Support roles are already rather rare (if you ever played FFXI, you probably know how rare yet sought-after BRDs, RDMs, and CORs were), and they wouldn't really fit into the Light Party/Full Party setup very well, which is built around a foundation of 1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 DPS (and then doubled for Full Parties).

Adding a codified support role would mean either changing the party setup to a 5-man/10-man structure/30-man structure, or giving the support classes enough DPS so that they could still fill the role of the 2nd DPS in 4-man content (which is pretty much the system we have now). Even if they went with the 5-person party foundation, support roles would arguably be more rare than Healers are (and potentially as rare as, or even more rare than, tanks are), creating yet another bottleneck for Duty Finder queues to get through.

It's just not feasible for the game to do that this late in the game--that's the sort of thing the game would have to have been built around from the ground up.