[GM] Please take notice. Make statement on housing.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Sounds like a bad housing system to me. You can't blame people for taking advantage of a terrible system created by the devs. This is squarely the developer's fault.

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By that logic, the players are never at fault for anything. The developers put a terrible chat system in place that allows you to say bad things to people, so obviously it's not the player's fault when they take advantage of that to tell people to die in a fire. They are just using the system that was created.

Consequently, harassment should really not be a punishable offense. Except it should, because there is a fundamental difference between "using" the system and "abusing" the system.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Sounds like a bad housing system to me. You can't blame people for taking advantage of a terrible system created by the devs. This is squarely the developer's fault.

I should also note that I don't have a house- couldn't afford it in this horrible mess they implemented. Regardless, it is the devs that are responsible for creating the worst housing system in any game I've ever seen. Players are just using the system that was created.

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Yes you can blame people for using a game system in a manner it was clearly not intended for. If Housing trading was supposed to be a thing people would actually be able to trade land rather than the current situation where you have to pay a person to leave and then pay again to buy the land from the game.

This isn't selling land. It's effectively charging a toil for access to an in game feature. That's a borderline exploit.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

It seems really weird if that would be against the game's rules.

That being said, I understand people's outrage. A lot of players can't get housing at all and some players are making a fortune flipping houses. I personally don't have a problem with it because I think it's just like playing any other kind of market

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As in real life, the housing market has regulations and some semblance of control. What has become common practice, I honestly believe, is indeed disruptive, and does fall under the ToS as section 3.2 for two reasons:

1. On principle, some content is blocked by not owning a house. Taking advantage of this demand for housing by buying a large amount and selling the plots for excessive gil, is indeed disruptive.

2. Aside from principle, lets take a step back and look at the obvious. The WIDESPREAD outrage is a disruption to the game and player base. So what is there to do except go after the source of this disruption.

People are greedy and keep buying empty plots to troll and make "easy" money

But I also have to point out that people are dumb if they actually go to other player to buy small land for 30M.

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Originally Posted by Naliee

People are greedy and keep buying empty plots to troll and make "easy" money

But I also have to point out that people are dumb if they actually go to other player to buy small land for 30M.

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Or 40M... 10M i can agree with but 40M? Whatthe.

Honestly I don't mind market play but price gouging, by selling limited resources for exorbitant profit is another thing. 40M.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

By that logic, the players are never at fault for anything. The developers put a terrible chat system in place that allows you to say bad things to people, so obviously it's not the player's fault when they take advantage of that to tell people to die in a fire. They are just using the system that was created.

Consequently, harassment should really not be a punishable offense. Except it should, because there is a fundamental difference between "using" the system and "abusing" the system.

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Unless there is a program defect that allows something like duping... but if the devs don't fix it and let it go on... then yes it is their fault.

Devs control everything in this world- all the rules, systems, and resources. They create the place for players to act. This game, in particular is incredibly controlled and on rails.

So yes- it is the devs fault. If players are acting a way they didn't anticipate, because thier design was bad - they can fix the design or accept the behavior. Either way- they are in control- what happens is their responsibility.

"Greedy" players is not a real thing. Self interest drives the entire loot system and reward system of this game. Badly designed abusable systems are a real thing. That's what this is.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

It's really unclear if this activity is breaching ToS or not because different GMs say opposite things. Some people are in jail for selling houses, some getting the official letter response it's legal and fine.

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- Because they don't even know what their design is supposed to be... it's a cluster of incompetence. If it was intentional- they could say so. Unintentional, they could fix. They don't even know.... it's pathetic.

again you can not justify the fact these people who buy the plots even mistakenly selling over what they bought property for cause the fact remains the person will have to rebuy the plot.

Even still people that make people pay twice...... exestuation....

It's really unclear if this activity is breaching ToS or not because different GMs say opposite things. Some people are in jail for selling houses, some getting the official letter response it's legal and fine.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

It's really unclear if this activity is breaching ToS or not because different GMs say opposite things. Some people are in jail for selling houses, some getting the official letter response it's legal and fine.

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Hopefully this thread will gain the attention of the Head GM to provide us with clarification. I noticed that some people with the "ok response" were from EU datacenter so it's possible there is inconsistency between teams.

Need an answer please

With gil, it's ok(I'm still around). RMT thou, yea prepare for that hammer. There is nothing wrong with selling houses. Would you rather people keep them and not use them? If they want too much don't buy. Simple as that. Also can't really call people greedy unless u never lot on stuff. Very self interested is the better term.

Their policies may have changed in light of the disturbance this is causing the players of the game.

That is why I believe they've enacted 3.2 of the ToS.

It is also bo surprise, as someone else has stated, that the EU GMs may not have received or adapted the same change in policy as JP or NA datacenters.

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Originally Posted by Sterne

Their policies may have changed in light of the disturbance this is causing the players of the game.

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This is what I'm thinking. It may have been something technically against the rules that they've been willing to overlook in the past, but right now it's at the forefront because of the reclamation and it's upsetting so many people that they're having to act on it.

Have a friend that got a 1 week ban for selling 4 houses and making a post on the forums about selling the houses, I will try to get a screen shot of the e-mail he received so people will know what it falls under.

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Originally Posted by ArkNova

Have a friend that got a 1 week ban for selling 4 houses and making a post on the forums about selling the houses, I will try to get a screen shot of the e-mail he received so people will know what it falls under.

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When did he get banned? Did he get banned today from game and these forums after or before you tried to contact the support desk yesterday?

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Originally Posted by ExKage

When did he get banned? Did he get banned today from game and these forums after or before you tried to contact the support desk yesterday?

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April 2nd 2015, from the forums and the game for 7 days, 1 of the 4 houses he was selling was a FC house. All 4 were small houses and he was selling each house for 10mil.

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Originally Posted by ArkNova

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Originally Posted by ExKage

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Originally Posted by ArkNova

Have a friend that got a 1 week ban for selling 4 houses and making a post on the forums about selling the houses, I will try to get a screen shot of the e-mail he received so people will know what it falls under.

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When did he get banned? Did he get banned today from game and these forums after or before you tried to contact the support desk yesterday?

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April 2nd 2015, from the forums and the game for 7 days, 1 of the 4 houses he was selling was a FC house. All 4 were small houses and he was selling each house for 10mil.

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I see thank you! What was your friend's response etc? Do you think he has copies of everything (like chat in-game) or did he just keep the email? First temporary ban I've read about dealing with this matter.

Since auto-demoltion allows players to get some of their gil back from a house, maybe the GMs will come out and bluntly say if house selling is against the rules or not. And if they do confirm it's against the rules, perhaps they will be more consistent with bans, if this story about a ban is true.

House selling has never been a big deal to me. However I can understand how it's not good for the community, especially now with inactive housing having a demolition timer. Every time one comes up you bet your booty it'll be bought and resold.

I hope SE will do something about how hard it is to get a house in super populated servers like gilgamesh. Banning or warning those people does absolutely nothing to resolve this problem. It just scares those players into not doing that thing anymore. there's more where they come from and just because players are no longer allowed to publicly sell, there will always be players willing to buy.

I did not get a house because there were people buying up houses on alts, but I also don't believe I would have gotten one if those people did NOT buy up houses on alts with the intention to resell/trade.

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Originally Posted by ExKage

I see thank you! What was your friend's response etc? Do you think he has copies of everything (like chat in-game) or did he just keep the email? First temporary ban I've read about dealing with this matter.

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He did get an e-mail that contained the thread he made that got deleted but I think he's hesitant about revealing sensitive information. I will try to find out what ToS he breached

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Originally Posted by Ailanthus

I hope SE will do something about how hard it is to get a house in super populated servers like gilgamesh. Banning or warning those people does absolutely nothing to resolve this problem. It just scares those players into not doing that thing anymore. there's more where they come from and just because players are no longer allowed to publicly sell, there will always be players willing to buy.

I did not get a house because there were people buying up houses on alts, but I also don't believe I would have gotten one if those people did NOT buy up houses on alts with the intention to resell/trade.

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If it do scare people you going see alot of ghost wards. Well alot of people bought houses and the wards still look like ghost towns XD

According to this person's support response, the teams are definitely not on the same page.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...nitive_answer/

When was the last time any wards were added? How long are we expected to "be patient" for new housing wards? Apartment? No thanks.

What we really need is a better system for purchasing housing. Instead of this cutthroat "first to see it gets it" system at whatever insane hour the demolition occurs, we should be able to queue or something, in my opinion. If I were actually lucky enough to see a plot for sale, which trust me I have watched them as much as possible since Christmas, I would buy it for myself for use as intended.

That reddit response still does not explain anything all it says is that all their GMs are not on the same page but doesn't say which side is the right side.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

That reddit response still does not explain anything all it says is that all their GMs are not on the same page but doesn't say which side is the right side.

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Did... you read it? The first screenshot in the reply from them,

http://i.imgur.com/LNcXuRT.png

"To clarify, resale of estates and land via Party Finder or any other means is a Prohibited Activity as it falls into the category of Inappropriate Behavior."

UA Section 3.2

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

Inappropriate Behaviour


Behaviour that does not fall under the harassment category, but otherwise is intended to prevent or hinder game play for other players, is also considered inappropriate and thus prohibited. SQUARE ENIX encourages unique play styles by all players in FINAL FANTASY XIV. However, SQUARE ENIX may take action against players who hinder or diminishes the quality of game play for others through such inappropriate behaviour.


Monopolizing a limited game feature hinders and diminishes game play for others


Under the full tosh under the harassment cause there is sub text clause on griefing making mention of monopolization

Also acts need to be reported first, gm don't do anything if its not reported.

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Owning a house and NOT selling it or abandoning it is monopolizing a limited game feature to an even greater extent......

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Originally Posted by ExKage

Did... you read it? The first screenshot in the reply from them,

http://i.imgur.com/LNcXuRT.png

"To clarify, resale of estates and land via Party Finder or any other means is a Prohibited Activity as it falls into the category of Inappropriate Behavior."

UA Section 3.2

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They have a conflict apparently.

http://i.imgur.com/RvTr8zv.png

Support mods have also told someone that they can be banned for AFKing in the over world(aka outside of an instance). It's hard to really know who's on the right page about rules when it comes to support.

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Originally Posted by MihaelB

They have a conflict apparently.

http://i.imgur.com/RvTr8zv.png

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This is the difference, from my understanding, between an EU and a NA GM call. They are most definitely not on the same page. As of now there is still no official statement on what is against the TOS. This really needs to be addressed.

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Originally Posted by MihaelB

They have a conflict apparently.

http://i.imgur.com/RvTr8zv.png

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Yes as was earlier mentioned "That reddit response still does not explain anything all it says is that all their GMs are not on the same page"
http://i.imgur.com/eeX3HZZ.png

Supposedly escalated to a supervising GM. It's in that reddit link I posted like 4 posts above yours.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Owning a house and NOT selling it or abandoning it is monopolizing a limited game feature to an even greater extent......

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Twisting it much??? I'm saying a person with multiple alts or a group of players working together can and are monopolizing housing from the general. They buy up all free land and make it so players have to play by Their rules not the game to have a house. Much like spawn camping players in pk or bot spawn camping.


Aka what by the T o S is cited under griefing its a dub clause to the harassment section.

If you guys are looking fir a specific rule you not gonna find one. It you be encompassed in a rule, like I said its pretty much griefing.

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

Twisting it much??? I'm saying a person with multiple alts or a group of players working together can and are monopolizing housing from the general. They buy up all free land and make it so players have to play by Their rules not the game to have a house. Much like spawn camping players in pk or bot spawn camping.

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This is absolutely true. There are FCs and LSs on servers completely dedicated to buying up housing just so they can charge 1000% more than what they bought it for. Pure profit.

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Originally Posted by rarecandi

This is absolutely true. There are FCs and LSs on servers completely dedicated to buying up housing just so they can charge 1000% more than what they bought it for. Pure profit.

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Which is still not a monopoly. You need over 1500 alts and trillions of Gil to pull off a monopoly. Please don't exaggerate. They have a few houses and ppl don't like the price they are selling them for. Don't buy and wait patiently for the next set of wards, camped them then you have what you want.

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Originally Posted by Ranzan

Which is still not a monopoly. You need over 1500 alts and trillions of Gil to pull off a monopoly. Please don't exaggerate. They have a few houses and ppl don't like the price they are selling them for. Don't buy and wait patiently for the next set of wards, camped them then you have what you want.

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Not exaggerating. These people are buying plots for cheap. If a small plot cost 5 million (Like it did on Odin after demo) and someone buys it, flips it and charges 50 million. That is a 1000% percent mark up. There are more than four FCs I know for sure who have this kind of gil as chump change who do in fact have a lot of alts just to store their gil. So no. It is not an exaggeration, its a fact. And an entire FC dedicated to this could easily have the monopoly in several wards.

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Originally Posted by Ranzan

Which is still not a monopoly. You need over 1500 alts and trillions of Gil to pull off a monopoly. Please don't exaggerate. They have a few houses and ppl don't like the price they are selling them for. Don't buy and wait patiently for the next set of wards, camped them then you have what you want.

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You seem to be picky. But in terms of housing available for new players to enter into content it would be considered a monopoly. As in the rest are currently being used by people who at no foreseeable future plan to relinquish it. As all people no longer using it have relinquished those houses through the reclamation program.

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Originally Posted by Stormrider

You seem to be picky. But in terms of housing available for new players to enter into content it would be considered a monopoly. As in the rest are currently being used by people who at no foreseeable future plan to relinquish it. As all people no longer using it have relinquished those houses through the reclamation program.

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I always said when they announced personal housing the should had been instanced so this problem wouldn't even discussed in the first place so new people wouldn't have a problem accessing this content.

These are exaggerations. Do you honestly think one or two FC and/ LS has ALL the houses on the ENTIRE server? Even if they did you honest think no one ore SE said anything about this prior to xmas? A small group of people had TRILLIONS of Gils to do this under SE nose? Laughable at best.

Well ... at least we'll have "public housing" coming soon.

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Originally Posted by Ranzan

I always said when they announced personal housing the should had been instanced so this problem wouldn't even discussed in the first place so new people wouldn't have a problem accessing this content.

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Instanced areas/plots would have absolutely been the way to go. I mean, a neighborhood is *nice*, yes. Absolutely. LoTRO has a system like this, but was far more flexible in expanding and adding new neighborhoods as the need arose, as well as having a "reclaim" system in place if a player didn't pay the upkeep, to ensure the houses weren't held up by inactive players (something it took SE months to finally figure out).

If hardware restrictions, or whatever it is, has their hands so bound that they couldn't get it right with the current setup, and have required so much time to fix it now... then yeah, I think instancing would have been the way to go.

Consider how Rift does it, with their Dimensions. An entire plot of land, for players to build on it whatever they can imagine, or just buy a pre-build home instead.

EQ2, a MMO that's over a decade old now, has provided every character with at least a small "apartment" from day 1. Over time they improved on it,and now every player can own up to 25 houses, of varying sizes. 25 per character... no restrictions... in a game built around hardware that's considered obsolete now. The flexibility and creativity a house in EQ2 allows is amazing.

There's so many ideas for a good housing system that SE could have implemented. But, they decided this way was the best, and here we are, where even as plots become available again,players are still not able to get them, because others are snatching them up and re-selling for absurd mark-ups - something SE failed to prepare for, and doesn't seem to have any intent of dealing with.

I don't know if these changes they're bringing are really the "fix" the system needs. It seems more like a band-aid to me. I also don't know what's going on with this dev team since 3.0 and their vacation. They've lost some serious momentum.

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Originally Posted by Ranzan

These are exaggerations. Do you honestly think one or two FC and/ LS has ALL the houses on the ENTIRE server? Even if they did you honest think no one ore SE said anything about this prior to xmas? A small group of people had TRILLIONS of Gils to do this under SE nose? Laughable at best.

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But again you miss the point I was trying to clarify for others. FCs LSs whoever, they are not monopolizing the whole system. They are monopolizing the available houses.Just the ones currently to be sold. When people who all own houses no longer plan to quit and or sell a house then the resource will be dry. In theory if only two houses were available from a seller it could be called a monopoly as they have the only two (weakly though). You consider all houses still a resources while some people consider only the ones people are willing to part with as a resource. And considering servers like Balmung and Gilgamesh have several people with the capped gil counter before 3.0. Buying 200 houses is probably not that hard. Someone posted a count but I believe it was less then 300 for one of the main culprits Balmung.

And SE foresight has been laughable at best. I also support a system that does not involve neighborhoods. That would allow the two hamster run servers they pay for to add a reasonable amount of housing.

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Originally Posted by Stormrider

But again you miss the point I was trying to clarify for others. FCs LSs whoever, they are not monopolizing the whole system. They are monopolizing the available houses.Just the ones currently to be sold..

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This^ Its not that they are buying EVERY single house. They are buying the remaining houses in each area. Then trying to sell them with mark up. If you have two or three FCs/LSs with at least 12-20 people it would be easy to corner the market.