"Glamour is the End Game"...What do you feel when you hear that?

I feel a huge lack of motivation to do anything really. I unsubbed for the first time a month or two back and resubbed for this patch. After clearing the MSQ and the freebie story from Midas.... I have no real motivation to do anything else. Law farming makes me want to gouge my eyeballs out and what's the point of raiding really? Story is given, gear is worthless. They didn't change the way they did gear for Midas right? It's the same gear but better stats and dyable? Or shiny? So even from a glamour angle... you can just do easy Alex and never have to step foot in Savage. I'm not even bothering with the new relic cause it will be outdated next patch for another BS grind that will outdate it again (coming from someone who built their Zeta before HW nerfs).

Only reason I stay subbed is because of FC mates and friends but after the first blow... dunno how long I'll stay this patch.

And for glamour: I have one set that I "set" into, and pretty much keep. I don't need 500 different glamour sets for my character. Grats to those who enjoy it I guess, you'll have a lot of fun for a long time.

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

Oh, I most certainly was just kidding. I was actually referring to a group of friends that I have over here on Balmung more so then I was the server as an entirety. I apologize if my statement has made you cringe at all

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No cringing here, I knew you were joking. No worries at all. :)

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

It's more like what Vivi said and I agree with them. I personally don't care what other people wear. Wear whatever makes you feel like a snowflake, but deep down; I really don't care that you choose that as your glamour. You could make all of the arguments about being an extension of yourself that some people have used. I personally give so little about my own glamour, that my glamour snowflake sets is literally just my mix matched body pieces of my newest strongest piece of gear therefore making me a circus clown. Since I don't glamour at all, I highly doubt you'll see very many people with my exact appearance. Perhaps gear, but I assure you, they have it glamoured while I do not.

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I only care about other folks glamour if I see something I want to copy, or if they are pleased with their glamour and want to show it off. It takes minimal effort to give a compliment.

Personally, I change up glamour a fair bit, I spent time making a character to play the game with. I had used a very similar character in another game that I played into the ground (almost literally), and I had become so attached to my character, I brought her with me. She's a nekomimi version of KOS-MOS, so she has to be pretty of course, I like to give her glamours that are in harmony with that. :) Sometimes it means a Thavnairian Bustier sometimes it means armor, sometimes it means a bikini (steel or otherwise).

I always think that the best retort when someone makes a disparaging comment about glamours (and one that will get people to leave you alone...) is;

"It's my doll! I'll dress my dollieh how I like!"

Oh yes, I like to challenge people's perceptions and observe their reaction.

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

Addressing the seriousness of the situation though and how glamour really makes me feel; I personally feel that people care too much for glamour in a game and hold more value to it then I personally deem it worthy. Although, since it is just a game, everyone is entitled to playing it however they enjoy it; as I am in my own way. If glamour is important to you, great! If not; oh well. Just like how PvP and crafting aren't important to some individuals in the game, believe it or not, there's some that feel the same about glamour to. Hence, for sake of the argument of this thread; glamour is not my end game.

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I'd enjoy glamouring my character(s) whether I was focused on End-game, PVP or whatever else. I have such a broad focus in the game now, that Glamour is kind of like the furniture now, it's there, and every now and again I rearrange the furniture to keep things fresh.

As I said at the start, absolutely no offense was taken, I knew you were not being serious. :)

The problem is the longevity of the content, they can make as much content as they want if it's useless in a week then it wasn't worth creating.

The game has tons of content, dungeons, zones, but is any of it worth doing? not really.

Login, daily, logout, there has to be more effort involved in an MMO.

Goes in one ear and out the other.

I know people are joking when they say that. But at the same time, many people farm content for glamours.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Goes in one ear and out the other.

I know people are joking when they say that. But at the same time, many people farm content for glamours.

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It's a lot like the whole "PC master race" mentality.

A lot of us are aware that people are joking when they say it, but deep inside, they actually mean it while making it come across like they're only joking. The same could be said with glamours to.

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Originally Posted by Vivi_Bushido

It's a lot like the whole "PC master race" mentality.

A lot of us are aware that people are joking when they say it, but deep inside, they actually mean it. The same could be said with glamours to.

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I don't think anyone is joking when they say it. PC's are clearly better.

Some people have no interest in the actual endgame content, at least not directly (farming it for a new look maybe). A lot of people just like to socialize and look good. I personally don't understand it, but it doesn't have any effect on me.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I don't think anyone is joking when they say it. PC's are clearly better.

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We all know they're clearly better. The problem is some people take the bragging of PC master race a little too far, to the extreme that it offensively belittles anyone on a console.

For example, the minds of PC players will work like this:

Today it's PS3 limitations.

Tomorrow it'll be PS4 limitations.

In a month, it'll be Console limitations.

[Though this kind of talk will shift the conversation into an entirely different topic, I was only trying to make a comparison.]

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

I fail to pick up the comparison you were trying to make.

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Never mind then. Just ignore my post. lol

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Originally Posted by Vivi_Bushido

We all know they're clearly better. The problem is some people take the bragging of PC master race a little too far, to the extreme that it offensively belittles anyone on a console.

For example, the minds of PC players will work like this:

Today it's PS3 limitations.

Tomorrow it'll be PS4 limitations.

In a month, it'll be Console limitations.

[Though this kind of talk will shift the conversation into an entirely different topic, I was only trying to make a comparison.]

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haha well, i was more adding to your post in that I am joking about it, but also think it's true ;)

Personally, I had a PS4, and soon realized that - guess what, my PC is far superior to my PS4, I can use my dualshock 4 controller on it, I can plug my PC into my TV, I don't pay for online play and games are cheaper (yay steam). So wait, why do I have a ps4 again? Answer: No reason. I immediately sold it and haven't regretted it at all.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Goes in one ear and out the other.

I know people are joking when they say that. But at the same time, many people farm content for glamours.

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I'm not joking about it.

Depends on the person.

For some people, completing the highest level of dungeon/raid content is end game. For others, crafting the best gear is end game. For yet others still, collecting cool looking outfits for glamours is end game. And for some, these things are all intermixed. For example, you get the cool looking gear you want to glamour by completing high end group content.

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

Apologies in advance if this thread was already made. I notice people saying it a lot in many threads and I do agree that glamour is this game's big part of end game. So I was curious how that made people REALLY feel.

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*looks at my fully kitted Glamorsmith....sorry, meant Blacksmith, then looks at all the glamour weapons not selling*
....methinks it's a lie.

But in all seriousness, considering this is a growing idea, it shows the state the game is in; and it's not a good one. When an MMO gets to the state where gear becomes so utterly trivialized and useless within a few months that people only keep gear for friggin dress-up...it's a worrying tell about the current state of the game. A large chunk of the hardcore raiders have fled this game due to the rate at which gear becomes useless, and casuals that are not in it for the glamor (like me) see less and less reason to keep going, when the dev team has made it rather clear that this is the path they are going on. This current trend, combined with an ever-increasing cash-shop glamour gear list, makes me think this game will become an overly-detailed dress-up and erp MMO.

That's how I REALLY feel.

I think it defines the main problem with FFXIV as a whole.

Everything is basically glamour in ffxiv.

Current Raid gear is Glamour in 6 months (only non-glamour for an extremly short period of time)
Token gear is either the same as above for top tier tokens or pure glamour for lower tier tokens.
Entire Economy is for glamour gear/mounts/minions/housing
Achievements reward you with glamour
Dungeons reward you with glamour
PvP rewards glamour only gear
Openworld and GC rewards you with glamour only
Relics are basically glamour


Then again the people who say this game is perfect seem to be happy just playing dress-up all day. So I guess it is what the target audience of this game wants.

Then again Xatsh, it may be a character longevity thing. Most (not all, but the majority) of those who enjoy the current state are fairly new at the game, typically having been on 1-1 1/2 years at most, while you and I have been on since early 1.0. We've had a long time to see this trend while they have not; it may be as simple as that...or, like you and I said, this will simply become a dress-up game.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

I think it defines the main problem with FFXIV as a whole.

Everything is basically glamour in ffxiv.

Current Raid gear is Glamour in 6 months (only non-glamour for an extremly short period of time)
Token gear is either the same as above for top tier tokens or pure glamour for lower tier tokens.

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Such is life on the gear escalator in a vertical progression game with little to no horizontal progression. What I can't figure out is why ilvl has to keep advancing so quickly. It seems to me it would be better to move the needle 5 ilvls at a time with major patches so things keep moving, but also to add some horizontal progression so gear can last 2-3 patches without being obsolete.

I would say that FFXIV is a dress up game, but it does have some elements that are, much like any MMORPG with a glamour type system.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

It seems to me it would be better to move the needle 5 ilvls at a time with major patches so things keep moving,

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It would be better if the ilvl didn't increase at all until character level cap increase or every expansion and have all 3 raid sets and all 3 tome sets be the same ilvl but provide more bonuses depending on the combination that you wear (wearing savage gordias helmet+ savage midas necklace = extra stats).

The lockout removal and df addition when the next raid set is added still applies so there would be more reason for people to go back to the previous raids to complete the newly revealed bonus stats (people who cleared the previous raid but never got the drop they wanted) and people who are starting to tackle raids only after it's been added to DF would have more experienced players around to get assists from. The item level increase every expansion/level cap (which would be every 1-2 years) would stop the "i'm wearing the same pants i got 7 years ago" from happening.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

It would be better if the ilvl didn't increase at all until character level cap increase or every expansion and have all 3 raid sets and all 3 tome sets be the same ilvl but provide more bonuses depending on the combination that you wear (wearing savage gordias helmet+ savage midas necklace = extra stats).

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I don't think that you can make that drastic of a change in course from Vertical progression to Horizontal progression. So I was thinking that if they plan on increasing the level cap by 10 with an expansion, and the gear by a total of perhaps 80 item levels, the actual expansion can use 50 of those item levels and then each subsequent major patch can bump by 5 ilevels with the final patch perhaps going 10. Given the much larger numbers on our gear at the higher ilvls, it would seem sensible to slow down anyway.

I was also thinking that if the movement of 5 ilvls with each patch were used, youcould also provide side grade/upgrade items for older gear to keep it viable through the patch, meaning that gear would last at least 6 months before being obsolete.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I don't think that you can make that drastic of a change in course from Vertical progression to Horizontal progression. So I was thinking that if they plan on increasing the level cap by 10 with an expansion, and the gear by a total of perhaps 80 item levels, the actual expansion can use 50 of those item levels and then each subsequent major patch can bump by 5 ilevels with the final patch perhaps going 10. Given the much larger numbers on our gear at the higher ilvls, it would seem sensible to slow down anyway.

I was also thinking that if the movement of 5 ilvls with each patch were used, youcould also provide side grade/upgrade items for older gear to keep it viable through the patch, meaning that gear would last at least 6 months before being obsolete.

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It's not drastic. Not increasing the item levels would involve...plugging in similar numbers into the new gear. Stat bonuses from wearing combination sets already exist in the game (check the GC gear). It's not a complete horizontal progression because 1: a full eso at i210 would be 'vanilla' and would be weaker than a combo set of 210 eso and 210 lore (again, as example) which would have the bonuses and 2: lvl cap increase/expansion would hike the ilvl to say 250 and completely outclass any 210 combination any player would come up with unlike the "this lvl 15 booths is better than any gear at lvl cap so i've been wearing it for 5 years and counting" deal.

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

I'm not joking about it.

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Which is why I said, "But at the same time...".

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Originally Posted by Gardes

It's not drastic.

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I think we are thinking about two different aspects. I'm quite sure that SE could rework gear to eliminate or drastically slow vertical progression. I also have no doubt that many players including both of us would enjoy the opportunity for some horizontal gear progression. However, I don't think that the player population would be in complete agreement, a significant portion of the players wpuld likely be upset at the apparent end of vertical gear progression. That is why I don't think they could make such a drastic change in course.

The real problem with this game and why most content is obsolete and why glamor is the true end game is the actual lack of progression you get from anything besides from the current content patch and with the Savage implementation.

Literally every patch is a reset with uncapped tomestones, a new primal, and 4 new normal/savage bosses. And useless 4 mans.
So the first thing is all of the content before the current patch is basically useless to the point where no one runs it for progression or for gear, only for vain mount drops(which is fine if you care about that stuff, just calling it what it is). So it leaves out any sense of progression you -could- be getting from "mid-core" content by actually having to do it by gearing up and going through content that would be relevant if it weren't for "content resets" every major patch.

We actually kind of saw this "fail" with Bismarck Ex being pretty much nothing but a block for Ravana Ex, since 180 gear was already in the game, why bother running it?

The next problem is the implementation of the "Savage" difficult for the special try-hard snowflakes this game seems to attract. Some will get mad at that statement but that's pretty much why we got Savage at all for SCoB.

The 3 binding coils of bahamut were already challenging enough in normal mode for most players that it actually required coordination, statics, and practice. Unlike the faceroll 24 mans and 8 man "normal"(pfft, aka, "Story")mode Alexander "raids"(aka super casual version of LFR).

The "Savage" mode should go back from being the only sensible means of progression this game offers(at this point in Heavensward) to being the mode that the special try-hard snowflakes do once they've already cleared everything and want a ridiculous challenge(if they have nothing else to do and want special titles and world firsts) for only the absolute top-tier teams.

After that, the normal versions of Alexander Gordias and Midas should be buffed up to 1st and 2nd coil difficulty standards, with the last wing of Alexander being on par with final coil standards. The whole thing of them being faceroll-tier for "story" and "casual" purposes just needs to be dropped, if players want to see the Alexander story, which isn't even the actual main-scenario and is technically a side quest, they should be willing to put in the time to clear the raids.

Next, there should be a major revision to vendor gear and the tomestone system(not a revision to the gear itself just the means of attainment) that actually forces players to progress through 'older' but still relevant content to be able to meet gear checks for newer raids. This is similar to the raid progression in the original WoW, where, aside from garbage itemization in the game's early state, you raided up from tiers 1 to 3, progressing through MC and becoming adequately geared for BWL, then becoming adequately geared for new 20 mans and AQ40, and so on. Say what you will about how extremely casual the raid process has become these days for both FFXIV and WoW but there's no doubt it kept content relevant.

So for example, to even think about stepping into Alexander Midas you would need a raid team adequately geared from doing Gordias which isn't out of the question at ALL considering how long Gordias was available before Midas launched. And to do Sephirot Ex comfortably to get the 220 weapon to progress easier through Midas you should have had to have done Gordias multiple times with a consistent static to gear up and gotten the 210 weapon from A4S.

Unfortunately the "natural" progression of PvE content is butchered with gear vendors and the tomestone system. I'm not saying they should be removed but they're a huge part of why each launch of an expansion and patch this game has huge chunks of content that literally just become "glamour runs". At this time I don't have any suggestions on how to revamp gear vendors and tomestones but again I feel like they contribute to the problem and maybe crafted gear to some extent.

Lastly, dungeons also need a gear revamp to make them relevant for purposes besides daily roulettes. And if Savage stopped dropping loot obviously some gear shuffling would need to take place.

Anyway, that's just my two cents.

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Originally Posted by Dajinn

*snip*Anyway, that's just my two cents.

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I think you posted that before and it was no less disagreeable then either. Every time someone describes older dungeons and pointless, trash, worthless, dead or whatever, I can't help wondering when this changed from being a game played for fun, into a treadmill of progression, always progression. The simple fact is that you stated yourself you and those of a similar opinion will not run anything unless there is some form of progression in it for you. That's fine, but really, there can't be progression in everything in a game this large. Aside from that, the point of the game is to play and have fun, not work and progress in an efficient manner. So, please do not try to turn the game we have into a regimented progression treadmill, let it be what it is, a beautiful, fun and social game that people enjoy playing.

I've logged in everyday since the game came out and completed all relevant content before each new patch.

However, I've been wearing the same Glamour since Second Coil came out.

http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/t...psm3nniyff.png

With the exception of the sword and shield nothing about my glamour has changed for years now. Everything released since then has been purple and gold nightmares, tank dresses, tank skirts, tank robes, and steampunk failures. If glamour is the true end game then I'm still waiting for that content to be released for male Tanks.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I think we are thinking about two different aspects. I'm quite sure that SE could rework gear to eliminate or drastically slow vertical progression. I also have no doubt that many players including both of us would enjoy the opportunity for some horizontal gear progression. However, I don't think that the player population would be in complete agreement, a significant portion of the players wpuld likely be upset at the apparent end of vertical gear progression. That is why I don't think they could make such a drastic change in course.

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This is very true. One of the main reasons I am here instead of Guild Wars 2 is due to vertical progression. That and better end-game & trinity.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

This is very true. One of the main reasons I am here instead of Guild Wars 2 is due to vertical progression. That and better end-game & trinity.

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Totally; While I did enjoy the gearing and the system in FFXI, with the system of FFXIV being based more on Skill and Job Actions and your gear just multiplies the effect, a horizontal system would be boring.
I gave up trying to stay progression gear back during Second Coil, and quite enjoy the fact today that I can play 10-12 hours tops a week, mostly PVP, and still stay relevantly geared for any raids my FC needs a tank, no matter the patch.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

People say it because of a combination of the facts that the game's itemization system is so linear and content gets outdated so quickly that the only lasting goals or real point of character customization is glamour at this point.

It's sad but true.

Maybe it'll change in 3.2+ but meh.

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This is almost true; but "lasting goal" is kind of missing the point. The only real goal in this game is beating the content while the content is difficult. The real fun and real challenge of the game are from beating content before you overgear it and before they nerf it. Don't even need "world firsts", beat stuff at your own pace depending on the time you can commit to the game. I raid somethin like 4-6 hours a week, less than some do in a day; I'll never get world firsts but the raid content is still going to be the majority of what endgame really is.

I have some good glamours like a lot of people and have fun doing it, but I certainly wouldn't be paying a subscription if that's all there was to it.

Some people in this thread have the worst case scenario for horizontal progression as if that's the only way horizontal progression works.

Horizontal progression exists in ffxiv in some ways.

Leveling up a job is horizontal progression to an extent. As leveling a job will never become straight up obsolete.

Glamour is horizontal progression. May get bored of clothes and change but sometimes you like to go back to an old outfit.

When I hear that I say: truth.

It is true. I love challenges and difficult contents but the short life span of rewards paired with the short term difficulty. just isn't worth doing it.

not really worth getting the gear cos in a month or so it'll be obsolete and useless for everything but glamour.
not really worth doing the newest content when in a month or so it'll be easier..

if the rewards had a better lifespan and the difficulty remained at a static level then i'd be so much more inclined to participate in the latest and greatest challenging contents. but when people will inevitably be facerolling there way to titles / gears you bust your guts off for. it massively undermines your hard work / effort.

So in the end all there really is.... is glamour.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

This is very true. One of the main reasons I am here instead of Guild Wars 2 is due to vertical progression. That and better end-game & trinity.

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Kaurie, what would you say if they slowed down the gear progression between expansions so that each major patch only advances gear by 5 ilevels? One of the most common complaints I see in this type of discussion is that gear is only viable for a short time. So I was suggesting earlier that the gear in the expansion be made upgradeable via the subsequent patch, and any new gear introduced in a patch be upgradeable in the next patch. Raid gear would always be best, and would be upgradeable with items from raids, and tome gear would be upgradeable by tome items, but even upgraded would still be short of raid gear. The whole things advances with new gear or upgrades differing by only n5 ilevels per patch so that gear remains relevant for more than a single patch cycle.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Kaurie, what would you say if they slowed down the gear progression between expansions so that each major patch only advances gear by 5 ilevels? One of the most common complaints I see in this type of discussion is that gear is only viable for a short time. So I was suggesting earlier that the gear in the expansion be made upgradeable via the subsequent patch, and any new gear introduced in a patch be upgradeable in the next patch. Raid gear would always be best, and would be upgradeable with items from raids, and tome gear would be upgradeable by tome items, but even upgraded would still be short of raid gear. The whole things advances with new gear or upgrades differing by only n5 ilevels per patch so that gear remains relevant for more than a single patch cycle.

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I think 5 ilvls is too small; however, I think the current gaps are too large. It would be great if Alexander Gordias Savage gear was still relevant and would help you gear for doing Midas Savage. Instead, if you are in full Gordias Savage gear, you're too undergeared to do Midas Savage. Instead, you need to do Midas normal which is much easier. It makes little sense to me.

I'd have preferred ilvls for the 3.2 cycle to look more like:

Midas NM : ilvl 200
Seph EX weapon: 210
Lore: 220
Midas Savage: 225

for a total of 15 ilvl jump overall.

I'd also like to not have Void Ark provide drops to upgrade esoterics, so if you wanted 210 gear - you were doing Gordias Savage. I feel this would make a little more sense progression wise. You do the first raid to enter the 2nd raid. Not do the first raid, wait around, then do some easy content so you can enter the 2nd raid.

I hope that all makes sense.

Added on to it all, I would like much more horizontal progression mixed in. There are numerous ways they can do this, and they started by adding materia slots on gear - great. However, I'd like to see more personally. Possibilities:

- Randomized secondary stats on all gear
- More sources for similar level gear
- Add in more interesting secondary stats that do more than just add a some set fraction of your main stat
- Materia that enables a stat build for an item, rather than adding stats

Being someone that has little to no care about aesthetics both in game and real life, I have a hard time taking it as seriously as some other people probably do.