The Bottom Feeders: Moves You Never Use and Why (Ver. 2)

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Originally Posted by Februs

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The thing about Aero III is that it is an AoE, so it comes at a higher MP cost (though not as high as you might expect) and a slightly longer cast time (3s instead of 2.5). It's good during AoE pulls and if you want to sacrifice the extra time/MP then you can use it along with the other two on bosses. I can't see it replacing Aero II in my single target rotation though, but that may be personal preference...

Aero: 50 + 150 over 18s (200) for 354 MP. 0.565~ potency per MP
Aero II: 50 + 200 over 12s (250) for 442 MP. 0.566~ potency per MP
Aero III: 50 + 320 over 24s (370) for 707 MP. 0.52~ potency per MP

EDIT: Aero III is the least mana efficient and has the longest cast time. The basic idea should still be that Aero and Aero II are best for signle targets, Aero III is best for a group. (Thank you AzureFlare).

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Maybe I'm trying too hard to upsell Aero II though. Aero III is just better in most situations which is a bit disappointing. I don't understand why they would introduce an AoE Aero with a higher potency than Aero II, which was already the less useful of the two Aero spells. Though it is nice to have a third DoT that stacks with the other two.

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Because they already did that with Cure? Cure III has 550 potency, a target centered AoE and the cost can be cut when it procs. Ironiclay Cure II seems useful in comparison. Though Now I wonder if the hypothetical Bio III and Combust III would also be AoE?

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Stuff

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Aero 2 is 250 damage, not 210. Would push it to about the same potency per MP as Aero. No need to upsell a good spell. They changed Aero 2 since 3.0.

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Originally Posted by AzureFlare

Aero 2 is 250 damage, not 210. Would push it to about the same potency per MP as Aero. No need to upsell a good spell. They changed Aero 2 since 3.0.

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Ah thanks. I kept reading different potency numbers on different sites, so I went with the most common (wasn't in game at the time).

@Morningstar: Yeah, but the difference between Cure II and Cure III isn't the same as Aero II and Aero III. It's a whole other beast.

My bottom feeder is Eos. I forgot how to use that tankeroo back in ARR xD Im carrying pocket lala whm with me anyway <3

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Originally Posted by Morgan

My bottom feeder is Eos. I forgot how to use that tankeroo back in ARR xD Im carrying pocket lala whm with me anyway <3

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You're doing it wrong! Put Lala scholar in your pocket, Lala Scholar puts Eos in pocket. Voila, triple healing powah!

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

EDIT: Aero III is the least mana efficient and has the longest cast time. The basic idea should still be that Aero and Aero II are best for signle targets, Aero III is best for a group. (Thank you AzureFlare).

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I see... Thanks for the break down. I'm not gonna lie, my Whm is typically the job I put the least amount of thought into. You guys are doing an awesome job of fast tracking my knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Februs

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I'm not so awesome lol. I tried to be all smart but Azure ended up having to correct me.

All this being said Aero III is a great spell, and I didn't even get into how efficient it is even with just 2 mobs.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I'm not so awesome lol. I tried to be all smart but Azure ended up having to correct me.

All this being said Aero III is a great spell, and I didn't even get into how efficient it is even with just 2 mobs.

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Meh, I just pointed out a small fact and a small hint, you did the rest on your own. At least you used math and came to the right conclusions. I mean, we could always do it the way the tank forums do it, shout first math never.

I personally love dissipation, it has allowed me to clear dungeon runs that I had no business clearing. Thanks to healing bonus on top of popping Eos' heal potency increase which stays past her leaving and emergency aether stacks, I have successfully healed through stupid on a few occasions.

As already mentioned yeah I have not once used sustain, and miasma 2's only use so far seems to be Keeper of the Lake. Also Ruin1 naturally got replaced as soon as Ruin 2 was available.

Following the other White Mages here: Repose and Cure III. Getting overwhelmed by a group in PVE to the point that Repose would help doesn't really happen anymore (Holy spamming is generally more effective than throwing out useless single target sleep) and nothing worth sleeping is vulnerable to it. Cure III is very, very, very rarely worth it. Compared to Medica II, Its total potency is lower, without a proc it costs more, and its radius is laughably tiny. It's only really useful if there's rapid, constant AOE damage and the party is stacked (otherwise you can comfortably just let Medica II slowly tick everyone back up). Very niche.

Unlike a few posts I've seen in here, I use Fluid Aura all the time. It shoves stray trash mobs back into the pile. Many trash groups have at least one mob that's immune to knockback. Nearly all bosses are immune to it. It's free oGCD damage. Stone III does more damage than Aero, but Aero + Fluid Aura in one GCD does more damage than Stone III for far less mana.

I keep forgetting to mention. I took Fluid Aura off my cross bars. >_>

As AST I forget I have Stella which could be used to slow adds in Tornado phase on A3S but usually dps kill stuff by the time cast goes off.

Lots of great thoughts here!

WHM: I use everything regularly except Repose. PoM is good for DPS and predictable heavy damage. Cure III is nice when melee all take damage for whatever reason, and whenever the party is grouped of course.

AST: I find Stella pretty useless... Not even on my bar. If it were an AoE dot or a ground dot or something I would actually use it.

SCH: Selene's silence... Always on cooldown because she tries to silence things that can't be... So when it could actually help it's not available. :'( I know there a lot of complaints about Dissipation and I do agree it's kinda niche, but I have also saved a couple almost wipes with it. I think it would get a little more love if it made your next fairy summon instant-cast (wouldn't have to hold on to Swiftcast, which could be used instead for Raise or Succor). It would also be easier to use for DPS in dungeons and such, where you rely on the fairy a bit more.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I keep forgetting to mention. I took Fluid Aura off my cross bars. >_>

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I use that sometimes. I keep it on my Hotbar as a means of crowd control. I know how utterly annoying ranged pulls can be as a Tank, so if the tank is having position issues I'll punt the enemy towards him/her to help them out... but only if it appears they aren't going to act on their own. I don't want to mess them up or anything.

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Originally Posted by Februs

I use that sometimes. I keep it on my Hotbar as a means of crowd control. I know how utterly annoying ranged pulls can be as a Tank, so if the tank is having position issues I'll punt the enemy towards him/her to help them out... but only if it appears they aren't going to act on their own. I don't want to mess them up or anything.

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Yeah. It's just that I don't really have room for it. lol

These threads are great for seeing who the terrible players are. >.>

Can't seem to think of a single spell I don't use tbh, except STELLAAAA. Though I still have it on my bar just in case.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

These threads are great for seeing who the terrible players are. >.>

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I don't think that's the intention...

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I don't think that's the intention...

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Sure, but it happens every time regardless, haha.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

These threads are great for seeing who the terrible players are. >.>

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If you think someone is "terrible" because they are under-using a ability or missing it's utility somehow, then perhaps you can enlighten them on a better way to go about using said move.

One of the intentions of a thread like this was for more experienced players to help out the scrubs. Telling people they're a bad player doesn't really help anyone. If anything it just stops the newer players from posting questions out of fear of being criticized. Given you offered no context for the so-called "terrible" players, and you've offered no advice from your own experience and knowledge, your comment seems to serve no purpose in the thread whatsoever.

As for Stella, it's been mentioned already that it serves as a means to slow adds in specific fights (Dreadknights in T5 or Slimes in A3, for example). Chances are it was designed for this very purpose, given that several of the new boss fights are tailored to the new jobs (A4's magic dmg, for example, is custom tailored to Drk's Dark Mind ability). Otherwise, though, it does seem awfully useless. That being said, I have seen Astro's get a lot of utility out of it in PvP. Astro's are widely considered to be the most overpowered healer in PvP at the moment. They are near impossible to kill unless ganked by a large group, and any single attacker chasing an Astro can look forward to getting heavy status and watching the Astro run away with no chance of them ever catching up.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

[Cure III's] radius is laughably tiny.

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Cure III covers an area as big as Asylum. I wouldn't call that "tiny".

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Originally Posted by Februs

As for Stella, it's been mentioned already that it serves as a means to slow adds in specific fights (Dreadknights in T5 or Slimes in A3, for example). Chances are it was designed for this very purpose, given that several of the new boss fights are tailored to the new jobs (A4's magic dmg, for example, is custom tailored to Drk's Dark Mind ability). Otherwise, though, it does seem awfully useless. That being said, I have seen Astro's get a lot of utility out of it in PvP.

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Useless? DRK Dark Arts+Dark Mind is the perfect cooldown rotation for the A1S plasma tank busters, it's up for everyone of them, and arguably the best of the tanks. Combine with AST's Disable or SCH Virus, and that thing won't even take a 1/3 of a DRK's HP. A3S Tether, A4S Carnage Zero. The cooldown is pretty darn good for for the heavy hitters of Alex Savage.

Warriors are good in PvP against Astro, it's all about getting Storms Eye up to cut down their healing potency, this allows the shields to break easier and others to burst them down.

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Originally Posted by technole

Useless? DRK Dark Arts+Dark Mind etc

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I was referring to Stella, not Dark Mind.

Drk's Dark Mind was just an example of how HW content is tailored for the 3 new jobs, since Magic defense comes in handy for MT's more frequently and gives Drk's an advantage in that position (which is why I put that part in brackets).

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Originally Posted by Februs

I was referring to Stella, not Dark Mind.

Drk's Dark Mind was just an example of how HW content is tailored for the 3 new jobs, since Magic defense comes in handy for MT's more frequently and gives Drk's an advantage in that position (which is why I put that part in brackets).

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Stella is just a lighter potency Stone I. 40% heavy was never useless in the first place though, most people in the game don't do end game content (at-least when it's current) like Coil and Alex Savage so they don't see the value of these skills aside from leveling/solo content. It's just like Scholar Dissipation, It's such a good skill in end-game if one plays the job to it's fullest extent.

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Originally Posted by technole

Stella is just a lighter potency Stone I. 40% heavy was never useless in the first place though, most people in the game don't do end game content (at-least when it's current) like Coil and Alex Savage so they don't see the value of these skills aside from leveling/solo content. It's just like Scholar Dissipation, It's such a good skill in end-game if one plays the job to it's fullest extent.

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For me, it seems like Stella has more of a niche usage. I get what you're saying about end-game content, but even in end-game I can only think of one fight in which Stella would come in handy (A3). It's not totally useless, but it certainly is a very rarely used (or rarely needed) skill. The part that I think bugs me about it the most is that its niche usage is made even more unnecessary by other jobs that have the exact same effect. Given that Whm's have Stone at a higher potency, Stella a waste of Dps/Mp expenditure if the Raid has a Whm/Astro combo. The only time the Astro would even need to use it is if the Whm can't keep up with the number of slimes to slow for some reason.

Personally, I like that the Skill has at least some utility, no matter how limited it is, but there is definitely room for improvement either by a potency increase or additional effect that would make Stella a unique asset to the Astro.

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Originally Posted by Februs

If you think someone is "terrible" because they are under-using a ability or missing it's utility somehow, then perhaps you can enlighten them on a better way to go about using said move.

One of the intentions of a thread like this was for more experienced players to help out the scrubs. Telling people they're a bad player doesn't really help anyone. If anything it just stops the newer players from posting questions out of fear of beingcriticized. Given you offered no context for the so-called "terrible" players, and you've offered no advice from your own experience and knowledge, your comment seems to serve no purpose in the thread whatsoever.

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This whole thread by itself is bad because every single skills have a use in a way or another, stuns, silences, heavies, are meant to be used situationally and not constantly as main toolkit skills.
Never using certain skills or removing them from hotkeys all together is what makes a player a bad player. For example, how some people say they never use stella, miasma II and stone I. Those skills are invaluable on stuff like T5 dreadknights and A3S trash, but because people who say that aren't lv 60 yet or don't raid at all, they never use those skills because expert and 24 man raids are their "endgame". But then slimes on ST could be heavied so the point is moot.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I keep forgetting to mention. I took Fluid Aura off my cross bars. >_>

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You do realize fluid aura is a 150 free potency attack that can be weaved between stone(II/III) spam and ideally used together with aero to increase the potency and so make the best use of the gcd right? It's also the only skill that can interrupt any cast as long the target is moveable.

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Originally Posted by mp-please

You do realize fluid aura is a 150 free potency attack that can be weaved between stone(II/III) spam and ideally used together with aero to increase the potency and so make the best use of the gcd right? It's also the only skill that can interrupt any cast as long the target is moveable.

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Yes, I do. But like I said I don't really have room for it.

Though now I think about it I could probably make room for it. I use to use it all the time before HW, but with how I had to change my Cross Bars I removed it and never put it back in.

AST: The only skill I really don't use at all is Stella. I know it can be useful in situations where I may need to slow adds though (and in PvP if/when I ever start doing that), so I keep it relatively easy to access. I also don't use Malefic I as much unless I need to be really conservative with my MP. Other than those, I use pretty much all of my AST skills.
WHM: Stone I is pretty much the same situation as Stella, and Stone II is the same situation as Malefic I. I also never use Cure III: I have only ever seen it be semi-useful a small handful of times, and I don't think it's really worth the MP cost unless it procs (and it almost never procs when it could be useful). I think I ended up taking it off my hotbar, but I may be putting it back on if I can get a capable group for Thordan EX, since that's the main instance in which I've found it to be useful. X/ I also don't use Fluid Aura as much in endgame/group content, but I find it useful when I'm soloing to keep enemies at a distance and interrupt casts. (Also handy in groups when I pull aggro from an add.)
SCH: I don't use Ruin II much, though perhaps I should. |D; I only use Ruin I anymore when I want to be ultra-conservative with MP. I also haven't had to use Fey Caress as much, but then again, I haven't run very much content with my SCH that would require me to dispel the entire party. Haven't used Silent Dawn much either, save to interrupt a few ouchie skills. To be fair, SCH is my weakest of the healing classes: I'm not that great with it, even though I think it's really fun to play. ;;;;

I'm not sure if this counts, because I still use it relatively often, but on all three of my healers I really don't get as much use out of Stoneskin as I probably should. I like to throw it up on party members before boss fights (which I often don't have time to do unless I'm on my WHM and have Stoneskin II, since everyone just runs straight into battle and it's time to start healing), or on the tank before a big pull/tank buster, but other than that, it seems like a waste of MP to keep casting it, and it's a rather slow cast unless I blow a Swiftcast on it. >< A HoT/shield if I'm on SCH or Nocturnal AST usually comes in handier for quick mitigation.

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Originally Posted by mp-please

This whole thread by itself is bad because every single skills have a use in a way or another, stuns, silences, heavies, are meant to be used situationally and not constantly as main toolkit skills.

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I think, perhaps, you may have missed the entire point of the thread and should go back and read the original post. Again, the point was not to specify "bad" or "useless" moves. Nor was the point for supposedly more experienced players to belittle other posters who might be misusing their skills and are in need of some guidance. The point was to identify which moves are used the least in your kit and how you might improve your (or someone else's) usage of said moves.

The idea is to identify moves with niche uses, or even moves that you just might not use much because you're inexperienced and looking for some guidance. Niche moves such as Stella, Miasma II, or Stone I are perfect examples. Calling them "invaluable" is a gross overstatement (considering that any Dps team worth their salt does not need crutches do do their job, and almost everyone has at least a stun in their rotation), but they do have specific usages in specific environments that not everyone might be aware of. People who are not at 60 or have simply not run raid content on a specific job, for example, benefit from the advice of players who have more experience than them.

That is what this thread is for: sharing experience. Obviously there are some moves that come up frequently because there are some moves that have more niche usages than others. This is especially true for moves that have a duplicate functions to moves found on other jobs (IE: Stella vs. Stone I in which Stone I wins out with higher potency). That's fine. This just provides a place for people to identify those moves and discuss those uses in detail. If that's not for you, than you are free to not participate. I'm sure there are plenty of other threads out there for you to indulge in.

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Originally Posted by Miyha

Stoneskin

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I'm not sure about others but I sometimes use Stoneskin to prolong my DPS time. I cast Regen on the tank (with DS when possible) and then throw a Stoneskin on them before I DPS. It just helps to mitigate some damage and allows Regen to heal some missing HP. I only do this if the tank is pretty good though, and if I'm comfortable with pushing their safety by DPSing a lot.

And since it doesn't get effected by CS I will cast it in between bursts of DPS if Regen is still up.

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Originally Posted by Miyha

I also haven't had to use Fey Caress as much, but then again, I haven't run very much content with my SCH that would require me to dispel the entire party.

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I don't run SCH myself, so I could be wrong about this, but I've heard that Fey Caress comes in handy in Thor EX if someone screws up on conviction towers and the entire group eats paralysis. I only mention it because you mentioned Thor Ex specifically. If you end up running it, then you might give Fey Caress a try in there.

In regards to Stoneskin, as Pld I often Use SS in place of my healers because I know that it's an Mp drain and has a slower cast bar. In any Cooldown time of a fight in which I can't Dps I'm typically trying to be useful with my Clemency casts or SS casts. Pre 3.0 I used to use it often as a means to self buff against Tank busters, but it was always very difficult to time correctly (and avoid interruption). Worse yet, the sharp increase in Dps checks post 3.0 has almost completely eliminated that tactic for Pld's, so I've come to rely on healers to use it more judiciously than in the past.

My advice would be keep your eyes open for such opportunities, especially if it would free up a bit more of your time to heal others. For example, during the Wild Charge (I think it's called Heavenly Spear in Thor ex) mechanics in Thor Ex, it might be useful to pop off an extra stoneskin on the MT to buff against the simultaneous Heavenly Heel and give yourself a few more precious seconds to heal up the rest of the party. I don't know for sure though, since I've only ever tanked it, not healed it.

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Originally Posted by Februs

I don't run SCH myself, so I could be wrong about this, but I've heard that Fey Caress comes in handy in Thor EX if someone screws up on conviction towers and the entire group eats paralysis. I only mention it because you mentioned Thor Ex specifically. If you end up running it, then you might give Fey Caress a try in there.

In regards to Stoneskin, as Pld I often Use SS in place of my healers because I know that it's an Mp drain and has a slower cast bar. In any Cooldown time of a fight in which I can't Dps I'm typically trying to be useful with my Clemency casts or SS casts. Pre 3.0 I used to use it often as a means to self buff against Tank busters, but it was always very difficult to time correctly (and avoid interruption). Worse yet, the sharp increase in Dps checks post 3.0 has almost completely eliminated that tactic for Pld's, so I've come to rely on healers to use it more judiciously than in the past.

My advice would be keep your eyes open for such opportunities, especially if it would free up a bit more of your time to heal others. For example, during the Wild Charge (I think it's called Heavenly Spear in Thor ex) mechanics in Thor Ex, it might be useful to pop off an extra stoneskin on the MT to buff against the simultaneous Heavenly Heel and give yourself a few more precious seconds to heal up the rest of the party. I don't know for sure though, since I've only ever tanked it, not healed it.

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Yeah, the Conviction towers are one instance in which Fey Caress is useful. My main job is AST though, and Idk if I'll ever get to running Thordan EX on my SCH. |D (I've only found two groups that were able to clear past the tank split, too... PF ftw. QQ )

The main instance I use Stoneskin is for tank busters like that. Keeping to the Thordan EX example, before every Heavenly Heel, I throw it out, unless the other healer says they're gonna do it. (Usually I figure if they're a SCH/Nocturnal AST they're gonna want to throw their shield out, so I handle SS.) I also SS the Shield Oath tank before Holy Blade Dance. :P

Fey Caress is also good in Void Ark when people decide to get smacked to hell and back by poison dots on both the Knots part and the Cuchulain fight.

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Originally Posted by VitalSuit

Fey Caress is also good in Void Ark when people decide to get smacked to hell and back by poison dots on both the Knots part and the Cuchulain fight.

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LOOOL! Don't forget the paralyze+DoTs on the first boss. |D I haven't run Void Ark on SCH yet either, but now I'm seriously considering it, since I'm lucky enough to get all the DoT eaters and healing partners who don't help dispel. ;;

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Originally Posted by Miyha

LOOOL! Don't forget the paralyze+DoTs on the first boss. |D I haven't run Void Ark on SCH yet either, but now I'm seriously considering it, since I'm lucky enough to get all the DoT eaters and healing partners who don't help dispel. ;;

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Dispel takes forever. It's a short cast bar, but single casting every. Single. Person. in the group is a pain in the butt, especially in high Dmg situations. Sometimes you just don't have the time to do it before you have to get back to saving the Tank. Once I found out what Fey Caress did, I started resenting Sch's who don't use it and sat on their thumbs watching me frantically try to dispel everyone individually when they could have just as easily hit one button and been done with it.

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Originally Posted by Miyha

I also SS the Shield Oath tank before Holy Blade Dance. :P

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I can tell you right now, as a Tank, I appreciate the extra Def. Holy Blade Dance is FAR more threatening of a Tank Buster than Heavenly Heel, especially because it's actually multiple hits rather than one big one (which nullifies a Pld's Shelltron after the first hit). The SwO knight is a scary dude to face down without your ultimate CD's. It's doable, though, if the healer is on the ball. Definitely requires more active mitigation, but any extra buffs that can be used at the start of the cast bar is greatly appreciated.

Nocturnal Sect, hands down.

Short of the few level 50+ fights where people do not take damage often or there's lots of mobs showing up that you don't to grab aggro from (Pharos Sirius 1st boss), it's often not worth the use simply because you're not healing faster than the damage is coming in, and there's no way to further mitigate damage outside of those small shields like there is for SCH. I rarely if ever use this stance, no point when Diurnal can heal up everything as fast as a WHM can. And it hurts me to say that because I main SCH as my healer, I know how powerful those shields can be, but there's nothing to help back them up.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Nocturnal Sect, hands down.

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Wow Noc is my favourite! Every time I join and see a SCH I am like aww, and if it's an AST I rush to pop Noc before they can lol. It's easy to run out of MP fast if you're popping shields non stop, but once you get the hang of it I love how well it works. Big AoE coming and pop that, especially with Synastry up. For me it's Stella I never use, I forgot about it until this thread.

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Originally Posted by 416to305

Wow Noc is my favourite! Every time I join and see a SCH I am like aww, and if it's an AST I rush to pop Noc before they can lol. It's easy to run out of MP fast if you're popping shields non stop, but once you get the hang of it I love how well it works. Big AoE coming and pop that, especially with Synastry up. For me it's Stella I never use, I forgot about it until this thread.

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But Noct is so much weaker than what a SCH offers, and the regen on Diurnal Aspected spells is much better (and synergizes better) in the long run. I like the look of Noct more (the buff icons) but its def too weak at the moment.

1. Sacred Soil

2. Competes with Lustrate /Indomitability and in some spots with adlo tactics

3. The improvement or change I wanted for it was given to whm in 3.0(Asylum, HoT component). So I'd like to see an increased healing received buff applied to party members standing in it

I very rarely use Dissipation. Almost every other tool in my box of scholar tricks gets regular use. The big exception, though, is Summon. Selene is almost a permanent fixture in my dungeons and raids. I have very little use for Eos other than an occasional Fey Illumination + Rouse + Whispering Dawn HoT bomb. That might be very silly of me, but between Fey Caress and Fey Wind, I find Selene kind of essential.