Sword Oathing any boss worth while is beyond stupid if your MTing Savage. And even if your are spanking some dungeon boss, a good DPS will rip enmity right off you if you tank in SO. What are you even saying?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrial
Then even more reason why PLD's should not stack STR. The only benifit you get out of it is a slight increase in DPS and enmity, and if enmity build is not a problem on full VIT, it then only comes down to one benefit (the damage). You are proving my point by stating this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrial
PLD = VIT > STR
WAR/DRK = STR > VIT
That is how it works.
Sorry, but no tank should pure vit stack right side.
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09-13-2015, 05:38 AMKerwin
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09-13-2015, 05:58 AMTyrialActually, you have no point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerwin
Sword Oath is far from stupid if you meet two requirements: 1) You're not losing Enmity 2) Healer can handle your incoming damage. I've never (on both my PLD and my WAR) lost aggro to any DPS if I was actually attempting to maintain enmity. So what are YOU even saying? You obviously don't know what you're talking about.
As for your second bit, it's more than just a "slight" increase in DPS. You keep breaking the tank jobs into two groups, but the principle holds true for all three. If you're able to survive the worst attack that the encounter throws at you then there's no reason not to swap in more STR providing you're comfortable with your healer(s). It doesn't matter that WAR or DRK benefit more from the STR due to having AoE DPS and self heals that rely on damage done. All three tanks benefit from STR through increased damage output and as a result of that, increased enmity. -
09-13-2015, 05:58 AMSyzygian
Do we really have another thread about this? There's like 8 of them now.
You should equip whatever will facilitate the maximum performance on your part and the rest of the raid. If you have healers that are extremely good at DPSing, a few extra vit pieces may benefit the party. If your healers prefer to stick to healing more often than not, you should put on a bit more str. But pentamelds are still the best, which is a design flaw in and of itself. TL;DR You rolled tank, you need to be adaptable.
It is however, a logical fallacy, to assume that a tank wearing tank gear as opposed to DPS gear means they don't know how to play their job. There are as much newb, scrub tanks out there in full STR b/c they wanna be Xeno, as there are silly tanks in straight VIT that don't know how to manage their job/rotation/utilities any better.
It really only is a point of contention in raids. In casual/midcore content all a VIT tank means, assuming they are good at playing their job (there is nothing skill-based about swapping gearsets), is that a healer should be in Cleric Stance 50-75% of the time Baning DoTs or engaging in copious Holy/Gravity spam. -
09-13-2015, 06:02 AMKaedrianLiang
Why not just have VIT be the damage modifier for tanks?
Towards the end of ARR. Tanks were making some awesome crafted STR/VIT accessories melded with STR/VIT to help their raid push out extra dps while not being any less tanky. Now that HW is here, we see the devs intentionally not offering any i180 combat accessories, because we were bending gameplay and their raid design.
So i challenge the dev's: since str vs vit is a controversial topic in high tier raiding, and you the dev's are clearly not going to let us have the high cost luxury of making worthy STR+VIT accessories, Just make it so that VIT is a damage modifier for tanks while completely removing the str stat off left side tank gear. And offer a persistent stat to replace str, like Parry on all "Fending" gear, makes sense right? -
09-13-2015, 06:09 AMFreyyyYou'll have trouble with AS3 DPS checks if you don't swap to Sword Oath as MT whenever you can. Shield Oath PLD DPS is so shitty right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerwin
And against a dungeon boss, a STR PLD shouldn't lose enmity even with a good DPS while tanking in SwO.
You're most likely a bad tank who doesn't even want to bother trying to actually maximize its efficiency as a job. Or maybe you just don't know what you're talking about. -
09-13-2015, 06:18 AMEye_GoreThis made me laugh, you funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerwin
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09-13-2015, 06:29 AMSyzygianHilariously enough, the regular i150 accessories will still meld to more STR and VIT combined than any combination of i210 fending/slaying gear. I personally have two i210 fending pieces, and if I equip those and three i190 slaying pieces as well, I have less STR and VIT than a full set of i150 pentamelds.Quote:
Originally Posted by KaedrianLiang
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
These posts and the posts they're responding to are all completely dependent on the gear the tank is wearing. A full vit PLD will most likely not be able to keep enmity off skilled DPS in Sword Oath, unless they are spamming Halone and ignoring their other combos that deal more damage, and even then only maybe. A crit Fire IV or a DRG's opener is about all it'd take. Its just funny watching people respond like this as if everyone is wearing the same gear. Everyone isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eye_Gore
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09-13-2015, 06:37 AMSleighEr, it's the same situation now as it's been. As of 2.2 and on they released a raid tier without equivalent tier accessories, then the big patch after they'd give out those crafted accessories. They'd be far too strong to release alongside a raid due to VIT gains trivializing some mechanics in progression, that's why they delay them. Expect i180 in 3.1, which if/when they come are going to be absolutely ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by KaedrianLiang
i150 are plenty strong enough, TBH. My tanks refuse to touch even i210 VIT accessories that have dropped in lieu of the i150s. -
09-13-2015, 07:03 AMwinsockI agree with this and some of the other points you have made. DPS is pretty much the only reason to take STR on PLD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerwin
The problem though is that while more STR will increase your dps, more VIT doesn't necessarily increase your survivability because most of your survivability is based on eHPS rather than total eHP.
An example with easy numbers might be:
* You will receive 100 incoming damage every 3 seconds for the next 30 seconds.
* You will receive a 100 healing HoT tick every 3 seconds for the next 30 seconds.
You have a 100% chance to survive this scenario if you have 101HP.
You have a 100% chance to survive this scenario if you have 1 million HP. -
09-13-2015, 07:04 AMFreyyyThat's general speaking. It implies a PLD having the same gear as the DPS. And I precised in my post "a STR PLD".Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
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09-13-2015, 07:17 AMSleighI'm really confused. Why is this beyond stupid? Especially with the gear we have at our disposal at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerwin
Sword Oath over Shield Oath makes you do over 300 more DPS and is barely less survivability in practice. It has to be spike damage that will bring a Sword Oath PLD down in FFXIV, not sustained, and considering how scripted these fights are, you should always have a CD up for them. Even if your healers are DPSing a lot, there is no way a healer losing a few (and it really is just a few) GCDs over a long period of time to keep up a Sword Oath PLD can make up for the 300+ DPS gap between Sword and Shield.
Also, why is a PLD using VIT > a PLD using STR? PLD in excessive VIT won't let your healers do too much more DPS, damage incoming is just too low, but PLDs CAN pump out some legit DPS. A PLD in full STR spec + i150 accessory/i210 slaying hybrid is survivable enough to take on any encounter in the game. Yes, even Pepsiman and Faust's father in savage. -
09-13-2015, 07:18 AMEye_GoreWhat is funny, is it really doesn't matter. I have not had a single instance that was failed because I had more VIT and not enough STR or vice versa. I have not had a single instance where I was told I do not have enough VIT or STR. I have not had a single instance where someone said "wow that went so fast, thanks tank for wearing full STR to get us through so quickly". I have not had a single instance where someone said "wow that took so long to get done, tank why are you wearing full VIT?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
Come to think of it, I have had no instance where anyone said anything about what I was wearing. So it seems, it really makes no difference. Now this is all in response to the comment in which I quoted about dungeon bosses. If there is such an issue that in regular dungeons, my choice of STR or VIT gear is going to make or break the party, we have problems other than what I'm wearing. -
09-13-2015, 07:46 AMSyzygianThis actually a very valid point. The issue is that STR spec is such a popular idea and people QQ about the expenses of pentamelds (I've never achieved more than 5 million gil, which is very much 3rd world, in my entire time playing this game, and I have a full set of i150 pentamelds), that most people don't know how to properly take advantage of a skilled tank that just happens to have a large HP pool. While I haven't encountered such comments either, myself, I have seen even sillier stuff (people criticizing fending gear with str melds as opposed to slaying gear with vit melds)...Quote:
Originally Posted by Eye_Gore
...the whole fallacy of it all is that individuals out there think they know of some magical unicorn BiS for tanks when really the concept of a BiS for tanks is moronic, any player that takes tanking seriously should be ready and willing to swap gearsets at a moment's notice depending on the demands being made of them. I played a good bit of DPS in 2.x, I know what it means to have a REAL BiS. Tanks don't have it, nor should they. Its the job of a tank to be adaptable. -
09-13-2015, 08:02 AMTyrialVIT gear being melded with STR is only a negative when said VIT gear has parry on it, otherwise they're pretty much identical. Only real difference is with STR accessories you have one extra slot for a secondary meld.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
Tank BiS is nothing more than meeting ACC cap, meeting HP requirement for Tank Busters and avoiding anything with parry on it if at all possible. For WAR it includes hitting that magic 9-hit Zerk Skill Speed number as well. -
09-13-2015, 09:20 AMKemas
It's quite noticeable when you get a tank (myself included) who uses proper stancing and STR build over one who uses ONLY tank stance and VIT build. It can be argued to the moon and back that it doesn't matter but in reality, if the class is being maximized to its full potential it makes a noticeable difference.
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09-13-2015, 01:16 PMRapBreon
Awwww bummer, my post got deleted; qwe qwe.
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09-13-2015, 02:25 PMKeluBehemoth
i have no problem holding threat on DRK as either or. I almost always use VIT when I'm MTing. As long as there's enough DPS you don't need to worry about the tanks DPS.
I'd rather clear and keep all bases covered than wipe to a mistake in last phase. -
09-13-2015, 04:11 PMFelorrA dps playing optimally should not pull off a tank. If they do, you're not doing enough aggro as a tank. Like others have said, if dps have to tone damage down to aid your aggro management, youre a very subpar tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galgarion
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09-14-2015, 01:10 AMSyzygianWell, that may be fine for WAR, but as a DRK you can actually suffer if you gimp your parry stat. While I use pentamelds and equip slaying accessories if needed, I don't literally go out of my way to shrink my parry stat. I think that's a really poor thing to focus on. STR is a great stat but DPS secondaries are a joke on tanks. We're talking single digit variations in DPS, perhaps more (as in the case of SS thresholds for more Berserked GCDs), but not enough to make up for all the extra, free off GCD damage parry helps proc for DRK at least. With the ludicrous damage that WAR's get they actually could be argued to have a BiS because they really just play like DPS jobs with a lot of HP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrial
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09-14-2015, 01:16 AMTyrialThe parry on your accessories isn't doing nearly as much as you may think it is. There are numbers floating around somewhere on here that show just how terrible parry scaling is. It's something along the lines of needing max parry value in every single gear slot to go up a few percent on your parry chance. It's hardly worth it and you will definitely see better results by opting for DPS secondaries regardless of your oGCD being tied to parry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
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09-14-2015, 01:33 AMSyzygianI'm fully aware of how parry scales, and tanks that are not disfavoring parry completely or going out of their way to do so are achieving about 30% parry rates, DRK's have a CD that increases it further, and as I said, a lot of off-GCD DPS returns from it, arguably rendering any 1-2% gains you see from favoring a DPS secondary moot. Get DRK to 60 then we'll talk. It plays very different from WAR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrial
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09-14-2015, 01:51 AMTyrialWhat you're saying would be like a PLD trying to say that they get a lot of DPS off of shield swipe so they're prioritizing block rate+ gear(if it actually was a thing) over something else non-RNG, all because when that proc actually did happen the skill tied to it was oGCD. I don't need a DRK leveled to understand how their skills work and the fact that parry is a garbage stat outside of huge trash pulls in dungeons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
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09-14-2015, 01:53 AMArdorGreyThat was the amount they used to be able to achieve, with upwards of 40% for parry stacking but parry was further nerfed with HW, even though people already didnt use it. I'll fully admit I haven't done extensive testing myself, but I've seen numerous other threads on here with drk mains saying exactly what tyrial is saying and the exact opposite of what you're saying. They've just faded since the pld issus have become a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
And yes I have drk at 60 and am fully aware of the parry procs you speak of. -
09-14-2015, 02:11 AMSyzygianThe point is I don't favor DPS secondaries, I don't disfavor my parry stat, and I'm still able to pull close to 900 DPS in savage while stance dancing with pentamelds, and I get procs pretty much constantly. The DPS secondaries are equally useless on DRK. STR is really the only thing that makes a noticeable difference in the scope of contributing to your raid's overall DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrial
The WAR in my static has a very similar mentality to yours, and when he asked me what my BiS was looking like and I replied with something along the lines of "I don't subscribe to the idea of a BiS because I constantly switch out gear depending on the needs of the party and the encounter in terms of STR and VIT, sometimes even on a pull-by-pull basis" he actually reacted very respectfully, as did the rest of the group. DPS should worry about BiS because they have literally nothing riding on their gear other than damage. As a tank you should be more flexible and adaptable because a lot more is riding on your gear than just your damage. Maybe for WAR its different since they are really designed more like a DPS, but that's a flaw in WAR's design, not in the design of the other tanks. -
09-14-2015, 08:04 AMJpec07Yes, they should.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdorGrey
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09-14-2015, 08:06 AMArdorGreyWow, that's just sad. You expect the entire run to slow down and every player to cater to you because you want 500 more hp?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpec07
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09-14-2015, 08:12 AMJpec07The is does not define the ought. Sure, right now DPS have an entitlement complex that says "I'm going to do whatever the hell I want." They don't think they have any responsibility to control their own threat generation, because since ~level 35 in 2.0, they haven't really had to worry about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdorGrey
All of the sudden it's an issue again, and DPS are whining because they suddenly have to take responsibility for their big numbers.
If the DPS is pulling off the tank for ANY reason, they need to use any redirect skills they have and throttle/stop their DPS.
What if the tank is undergeared?
What if they're new?
What if full 210 Slaying accessories would do nothing to help?
It's the way the trinity works. If the healers or the DPS pulls off the tank (while the tank is doing their job normally), they need to take steps to stop generating as much threat as they are. It's really just as simple as that. -
09-14-2015, 08:42 AMKeluBehemoth
Unless your tank is in greens you shouldn't be throttling your DPS AT ALL.
Even when I was in i170 the only time I lost threat was during big pulls was when I'm slapping my DoTs on all the mobs and maybe needed to throw down another unleash or AD.
All this being said.
Tank should NEVER be wearing STR accessories during big trash pulls. The amount of AOE threat you need to maintain outside of your DPS combo is absolute peanuts compared to the AOE DPS that the healer can do.
STR accessories should only ever be worn for MTing single targets in dungeons and raids that you and your group are experienced and comfortable with. -
09-14-2015, 12:28 PMTyrialI'll agree with everything but this...if I were to run full vit over full slaying or even my pentamelds I'd be gimping my effectiveness and survivability on the pull. As it stands now, I can pull a shit ton of mobs, get my stacks, drop vengeance and lay waste to everything all while keeping myself alive and allowing the healer to still DPS if they know wtf they're doing. I regularly tie or beat my SMN friend on large pulls if I have my CDs available.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeluBehemoth
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09-14-2015, 05:06 PMXyphon
Despite how many times this argument comes up it never gets old. I was probably the one advocating full vit pre hw, and did so since 2.0. Then hw came around. I decided to test str as I lvled from 50 to 60 as a tank. I never had any issues the entire time, and cleared hw several days after it was fully released (early access ftw).
Now, what I used to do for "speed runs" was I would slap on full vit for trash, and swap to full str for bosses. It worked pretty well and I never had any healers crying about how much dmg I was taking. Why? Proper management of defensive cooldowns. I think this is the problem most tanks have, and its the reason the tanks rocking STR get so much heat. If you can't even properly rotate your defensive cooldowns, don't bother going full str (or let alone dropping your tank stance).
These are the tanks I see pop every defensive cooldown as soon as they are up. Rotating cooldowns is even easier if you know what's coming at you aka *ravens beak*, *mountain buster*, or etc.
Since there also doesn't seem to be an enmity ceiling, you can go far enough ahead of dps while being in full str gear; that you got plenty of time to breath. I experienced in my static what it means to be only "one" step ahead of dps in terms of enmity, and trust me it was very nerve racking. This was the basis for why I started experimenting with str.
Back to having the threat lead, depending on the tank job ; it gives you room to either do more dps rotations or for example on pld start using clemency/stoneskin. I'm not going to knock any tank who is in full vit; because they wish to play it safe. I personally always carry a set of vit acc around in case a healer isn't comfortable with my total hp. The funny part is since the release of hw, I never had any healer ask me to switch to vit gear. -
09-14-2015, 05:21 PMAomine1992
Throttle dps lmao if the tank is that bad they need to re evaluate how to tank...
I have never had that issue where the dps are pulling from me but then again I'm 3 str /2 vit, but even with ppl way more geared then me tanking is to easy for ppl to mess up the simplest of things when it comes to the job...pre HW not so much of a worry then post HW ppl had to learn how to play their job and now it's an issue...
This is one time that dps arnt at fault unless they are attacking some random mobs -
09-14-2015, 06:13 PMNoxiferThere are very clear examples of when Damage Dealers sometimes have to throttle their DPS to avoid ripping mobs from the tank. This usually involves the Amdapor Keep and Wanderer's Palace dungeons, as well as the first trio of HM Primals -- since especially AK and the primals are necessary to get the first relic. If you get a tank with a pre-relic weapon and have the DDs with i110 weapons or higher, you're going to have to hold back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aomine1992
It's somewhat the same issue now with the level 60 dungeons. It's not as obvious yet, but once our max item level has gone up some more (up until they add item level synch on the first level 60 dungeons), you'll have very much the same issues when ending up with low-geared tanks via roulettes. It'll never be on the same level as the first level 50 dungeons, of course, since level 60 tanks on the whole are more skilled than level 50 tanks and know better how to compensate. But if a DD gets too many procs and/or crits, the tank's compensating won't be enough when the DD has a weapon 40+ item levels higher.
So yes, aggro maintenance is not only the tank's job. It's the DDs' job as well to use de-aggroing skills (such as Quelling Strikes), switch target and/or stop attacking for a little while if they grab aggro of one or more mobs. And then for the rest of the run maybe be a bit more cautious and yes, throttle their DPS. Same for healers, though AFAIK only WHM has a de-aggroing skill (conveniently named SoS ^_~), and holding back on healing isn't always feasible.
Ah, good to know ^^ I've unlocked AST, but haven't really played it yet. And yes, you share healing aggro with your pet, but there's also the issue where (due to said pet) scholars are to some level expected to DPS more than other healing classes, especially at lower levels where the fairy can heal competently for parts of or even all of the dungeon. And dotting one mob and then using Bane can sometimes cause your aggro to tick upwards slowly. Plus, with dots you can't just stop the DPS if you accidentally draw aggro ^^; They'll keep ticking until they're done. (To a degree, it's the same with hots, except those can be cancelled ^^; ) So there have been plenty of times as a scholar where I've wished I had a de-aggro skill. Here's to hoping we get one next expac! ^_~Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdorGrey
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09-15-2015, 12:50 AMArdorGreyAstro also has a hate reduction move. With sch it should never happen because your pet generates aggro separately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noxifer
I must stress that managing aggro for undergeared tanks is NOT what the initial point of the thread was. There's a difference between an undergeared tank and a tank with a 200 weapon that wants to MT but then has the whole party frighteningly close to their threat because they're chunky with vit.
Also ran Gubal on my pld just last night with the vault weapon, and kept aggro off a 200 blm with a mixed str/vit set. I was holding on by the skin of my teeth and with a full vit set I no doubt would have lost aggro, turning the whole run into a messy argument over whether I was a bad or he should kneecap his dps. Instead we breezed through thanks to his freight train deeps and I got both of the comms.(other dps was a friend) -
09-15-2015, 12:58 AMAstral145
Personally I like to use str/vit combo... usually more str than vit but I keep both sets based on the group. Besides it feels really good when I get to take off grit during certain phases on a boss fight to bring some nice dps. DRK is so much fun...
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09-15-2015, 02:04 AMZaresin
A good vit tank with a good party that utilize CDs appropriately (quelling strikes for instance) and the tank will have no problem. A tank who likes to tank out of tank stance and quelling strikes won't keep agro from being pulled. In the end it really comes down to competency and how the group works together to over come an obstacle. Yes in savage currently some (emfasis on some) str gear is needed to hit those enrage timers but if you don't have enough health to survive all the damage being thrown at you and healers unable to keep up with you and the raid, well that str gear is pointless.
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09-15-2015, 02:07 AMZaresinHis gear outpaced yours. Of course you would be losing hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdorGrey